Wow! What a gender gap? Or is it a gender chasm?

[Larkspur]

from the ARG poll http://americanresearchgroup.com/nhpoll/demtrack/

Clark's strength in the ballot preference continues to be among men. In the latest tracking, Dean leads Clark 30% to 22% among men and Dean leads Clark 43% to 7% among women.

No wonder Clark is way behind Dean in NH and Clark doesn't seem to have a plan to address this chasm between the genders or if he did, it's not working.

Any theories as to why NH women are passing on the general?

[windansea]

1. saw that

what's wrong with those Vermont women??

are they all blind??

:)

[lastliberalintexas]

7. Is that a joke?

You know, that has actually been used against female voters in the past, that we would only vote based on looks. I find it terribly offensive to suggest that I would base my vote for such an important position in such an important year on who is better looking or handsome.

If you meant this as a joke and my sense of humor is just running low today, I apologize.

[windansea]

9. yes just a joke

because of some of the "swoon" threads for Clark

:)

PS I should have said New Hampshire not Vermont

:dunce:

[dogman]

45. HA HA

It's not at all offensive that a woman would dislike someone for service to their country, right?

[MoonAndSun]

2. I am a woman who supports Dean, but I also like Clark a lot, he is my

#2 pick at this time. I see an articulate man who speaks very well in interviews, though during the debates he did not do as well as I thought he would. And some of his views are appealing to me.

So I can not say why this big discrepancy in the polls.

[LuminousX]

3. I thought chicks dug men in uniforms

Maybe he should campaign in his uniform.

[eileen_d]

12. Thanks for insulting my intelligence. n/t

[carpediem]

4. I'm not from NH, but I am a woman and

I think Clark is our best candidate, both for running and winning against * and for being a GREAT President.

At our meetups here the gender breakdown seems pretty even.

[ShimokitaJer]

5. It's got to be the appeal of the military

I know a few WWII veterans who instinctively swung to Clark as soon as he entered the race, and before they knew anything at all about his policies, merely on the basis of his being a career military man. Some have since changed their minds and some are still Clark supporters, but the initial appeal was definitely the gut-level response to the military. And, of course, that response is particularly strong post 9/11.

If this is true, Kerry supporters have good reason to wonder why their candidate doesn't have a greater veteran appeal. I think, ironically, it is because too much is known about Kerry. His time as a Senator is much fresher in the memory than is his military service, while all most people knew about Clark before he entered the race was his military service. Let's not forget that the average voter knows (and cares) far less about the candidates than we on DU.

[Ramsey]

6. Well, I like Clark

I have heard some women say that they don't want a general as president. But there certainly may be men who also feel that way.

[Cheswick2.0]

8. NH voters of either party are very independent minded

I think women in general (pun intended) are less likely to think military experience is important for a president, or that the image is particularly moving. I have always rejected the idea that everything changed on 9-11. I think people were shaken, but it is really the media that obsessed over national security and patriotism.

[democratreformed]

10. I agree on this one

I don't believe everything changed either. The only thing that changed, IMO, was some people's perceptions and their realization that there is a whole 'nother world out there.

[eileen_d]

11. I am laughing my ass off

"Nothing changed, except some people's perceptions...."

That's like saying "The avalanche was no big deal, just more snow to shovel."

Ignoring people's (admittedly media-influenced) perceptions will be a BRILLIANT strategy in 2004! </sarcasm>

By the way, I don't know what the gender gap in NH is about, but I'm sure it will close up over time. Another woman for Wes here. :hi:

[democratreformed]

20. Another woman for Wes here, too.

And, no I don't think perceptions should be ignored FYI. Sometimes, I really stick my foot in my mouth trying to engage in civil discussion around here.

For your further into, I have been a Wes supporter for months and months - even participated in the draft movement. In December, I traveled to New Hampshire on behalf of our candidate along with several other Arkansans.

Do my remarks seem to indicate that I do not support Wes? I don't in the very least see how agreeing that all the fear that Bush is touting in regards to how much the world has changed is BS is saying that I don't support Wes Clark.

As a matter of fact, I expressed this very sentiment on Wes Clark's forum "Leadership for America" long before he became a candidate and I was not ridiculed there. That is ONE of my main reasons FOR supporting Wes Clark. He does not subscribe to the fear mantra and his message is one of optimism and hope.

That being said, no I do not think that ignoring perception is a smart thing to do. We have to work WITH the perceptions that people have. We also have to supply facts and discuss our ideas. My idea is that terrorism has existed for many years and that we should not let fear bring us under the control of the fear mongers and chickenhawks.

[Cheswick2.0]

36. "I am laughing my ass off "

Would you like to tell us what changed after 9-11 except perception? Maybe then we would know why you are laughing your ass off.

[Walt Starr]

13. Maybe they saw that speedo shot

Ba da dum (rimshot).

[maxanne]

14. Howard Dean

genuinely likes women - that's obvious to us. He respects his wife, and her profession - that's obvious too. He believes in equality for women - and says so - every time he speaks.

I'm tired of the "women vote for looks" stereotype, and recently horrified some men trying to give me that crap by telling them that I bring my vagina into the voting booth - but it doesn't hold the pen. :eyes:

Clark appeals to the fearful. I don't believe that Big Daddy is going to protect me from terrorism. I think a sane, respectful foreign policy go a long way toward minimizing terrorism. Frankly, I see the military and the military mentality as being a part of the problems we face.

The Democratic Party is in big trouble. We need to do a lot of work to make it better. I don't believe Clark ( a Democrat come lately, if at all) is the answer to the leadership our party needs.

[BootinUp]

16. Of course you realize, you just advocated

not using stereotypes

and using stereotypes

in the same post.

[maxanne]

18. oh

just because I don't support your candidate?

[PVnRT]

24. Really, now?

And what stereotype did she advocate? Just curious.

[BootinUp]

33. Thats how I read it...

"Frankly, I see the military and the military mentality as being a part of the problems we face."

Hence Clark is nothing but a military mentality?

[maxanne]

40. puhlease

is he, or is he not a military person, campaigning on his military background? :eyes:

[QC]

56. Here it is.

Clark appeals to the fearful. I don't believe that Big Daddy is going to protect me from terrorism.

Clark's millions of supporters are frightened people with daddy fixations. It couldn't be that they prefer his positions, or like him personally, or feel that he has a better shot at winning.

Nope, they are all just bedwetters looking for a protective father figure.

If that's not a stereotype, it'll do until a real one comes along.

[Larkspur]

61. But that is how Clark is sold to the public by Clark's campaign

"He's a 4-star general and that is what we need in the War against Terrorism." Etc.

Horse fritters!

All Clark has to sell himself is his military career and his stint as a consultant to a lobbying company for the military industrial complex. Unlike General Andrew Jackson, the only general who was a competent President, Clark has not made a clear transition from the military realm to the civilian one, which is where the President of the United States is suppose to dwell.

[jonnyblitz]

22. "Clark appeals to to the fearful"

damn maxanne you got that right! That is what I have been saying all along. All I have heard from many who support him is that he's the only one who can beat Bush and if he isnt the candidate we have four more years of Bush etc etc." If the man was never a General would anybody be looking at him right now?

[QC]

55. One can play that game lots of ways.

If Dean was never governor of Vermont would anybody be looking at him right now?

If Kerry was never a senator would anybody be looking at him right now?

If Kucinich was never a representative would anybody be looking at him right now?

etc.

[Eloriel]

47. Well said, Maxanne

In addition, one of the things we need to do in this country is move away from militarism -- for ourselves and our domestic policies, and for our international relations. Unfortunately, having a general at the top of the ticket doesn't help with that.

That's not to say Clark is militaristic, altho I am put off by his counching so much of what he says in terms of military constructs and images, but that there is no way to separate the image of a military man from militarism. Most of the rest of the world would be quite leery (and this doesn't even get into his actual record, which is further reason for pause on their part).

Eloriel

[Woodstock]

15. I've seen similar numbers in other polls

Across the country. I like Clark, but just like Dean better. I think both Clark and Dean are enlightened with respect to women. I guess if I had to pin it down, I'd say Dean has a proven track record of upholding choice (and as a doctor he firmly believes in it.) I trust that Clark is pro-choice, but we've never seen him in a governing situation WRT to this issue.

[Woodstock]

19. BTW, lest people say this isn't a defining issue

exit polls showed this was the number one reason women picked Gore over Bush in 2000

[BootinUp]

21. Big difference though

Bush was aligned with the pro lifers. There is no such connection with Clark. And why do you doubt his position? I see no room for wiggle in his stated policy.

http://clark04.com/issues/women/

snip...

Reproductive freedom. Every woman deserves complete information about and access to birth control so that families can be planned and so that every child is a wanted child. I will oppose measures that interfere with the ability of a woman and her doctors to make choices about her reproductive health.

[Woodstock]

26. Compare Clark's Women page to Dean's Women page

I believe Clark when he says he is pro-choice. But the page you link to on Clark's site mentions on birth control but there is no mention of Roe v. Wade or a woman's right to choose.

Compare Clark's statement from his site to Dean's (http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_women)

"The Bush administration’s policies have been devastating for women. On his first day as President, he reinstated the Global Gag Rule and closed the White House Office for Women’s Initiatives and Outreach. In the years since, this Administration has systematically attacked women’s reproductive health care services, opposed condom distribution to fight HIV/AIDS, restricted teens’ access to information about sexuality and contraceptives, and worked to dismantle Roe v. Wade and end a woman’s right to choose. In all of these actions, President Bush has shown a stunning lack of compassion and understanding for the plight of women and girls around the world."

and linked off that page is this:

"Today marks a dark day for American women, who are seeing their reproductive freedoms restricted by a President acting in concert with a right wing congress. As this controversy moves to the judicial system, we are reminded anew of the importance of electing a pro-choice president next year.

"As a physician, I am outraged that President Bush has decided that he is qualified to practice medicine. There is no such thing in the medical literature as "partial birth abortion." But there are times when doctors are called upon to perform a late term abortion to save a woman's life or protect her health. Today President Bush made it a crime for a doctor to perform such medically necessary procedures when a woman's health is at stake.

"This law will chill the practice of medicine and endanger the health of countless women. Despite what politicians tell you, there is not an epidemic of third trimester abortions in this country. This kind of legislation serves the sole purpose of chipping away women's constitutionally protected reproductive rights with the ultimate goal of overturning Roe v. Wade..."

Dean has come out and said the A word. Clark didn't do this - he skirted the issue. Now, I think he is pro-choice, but the fact is, he's playing it safe on his site, perhaps to not offend those who are not pro-choice? but in doing so, has left me feeling he will not be the most stauch defender of choice. Whereas I come off feeling that Dean realizes the full importance of this issue - constitutional rights - and will fight tooth and nail to defend it.

[BootinUp]

31. Clark has spoken on the record

about abortion, I linked a statement below re: Roe v Wade. You have a point about the website, I think they should be a little more specific.

I think both candidates have the right policy.

Cheers

[helleborient]

27. The problem, and I guess Clark doesn't see it...

Nothing in this statement explicitly says he would support the right to choose to abort a pregnancy.

Many do not see abortion as a form of birth control...so allowing access to birth control doesn't cover it.

It leaves plenty of room for the Republican policies that have eroded the right to choose by insisting abortion be only allowed when a woman's life is threatened...even refusing to allow abortions in the case of rape.

To make it clear he is pro-choice, Wesley Clark needs to at least mention abortion.

In the wake of the partial birth abortion ban, Howard Dean bluntly stated that it is important to elect a pro-choice President.

Why does Wesley Clark avoid words like abortion and pro-choice?

[BootinUp]

29. Here's a statement on Roe v Wade

http://clark04.com/press/release/049/

Press Releases
For Immediate Release
Date: October 28, 2003

General Wesley Clark responds to President Bush's Comments on a Woman's Right to Choose

"Our Congress and our citizens would not -- and should not -- tolerate a return to the dark days before Roe v. Wade. I stand with the United States Constitution, the United States Supreme Court, and the majority of the American people in believing that our government has no right to come between a woman, her family, and her doctor in making such a personal and private decision."

[Woodstock]

34. Sounds good

The thread was wondering why more women didn't back Clark as first choice. I think this perception is one reason. One has made this a big issue - I can't remember a single speech I've heard Dean give where he hasn't mentioned it - and one is at least perceived of making less of an issue of it. I'm not saying both would not defend it, I'm just trying to figure out why the difference in preferences among women.

[Turkw]

17. Don't know, but Clark has a good record on women and minorities in the

Military.

[Woodstock]

25. I'm sure he does

Again, I don't think it necessarily means women don't like Clark. It could just mean they like Dean better.

[TLM]

30. Yeah the ones he doesn't bomb...

and the ones who are not opressed by brutal south american war lords that were trained in the SOA which Clark supports.

[cally]

23. I think it's that women don't feel as

comfortable with a military man. I also think women vote more on domestic issues than men do and many of Clarks domestic positions are not known. He's running ads now to start highlighting female supporters. I think the gap will narrow considerably as women find out more about him.

[CWebster]

28. Sure

Women prefer healers who care for their children's lives as opposed to Generals who want to encourage their children to sign on and risk their lives. Or they are smarter and more intuitive and less impressed with the machismo that males bond over.

[Cheswick2.0]

32. doesn't that kind of explain the divide

between men and women in general elections too? Men vote republican more than women do.

[cally]

35. Not you too

Clark is not a Republican!!! Look at his positions. No Republican would advocate cutting the military budget, reducing the power of the military/industrial complex, pro-choice, promoting a more progressive tax system, ensuring environmental protection, etc.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. I am not saying he is

I wasn't talking about him at all. I am saying that in general the republican party co-opts the military, law and order kind of mentality and that is why men vote in larger numbers for them than women do. I am not referencing General Clark at all. I know he registered as a democrat.

[TexasSissy]

38. Maybe there aren't many women up there? If so, get me a plane ticket

to New Hampshire!!!!!


Signed,

A woman who loooooooves Clark.

[TexasSissy]

39. Seriously, I'd guess that men have more time to keep up with

the politics on TV. While those political shows are on, lots of women are cooking dinner. Then they work all day. Then they run errands and do the shopping on the weekends.

So it's probably a case of whoever's name they hear the most (that'd be Dean, of course) is the only one they really know anything about at this point.

[maxanne]

41. congratulations

on demeaning the women of NH and the rest of the world. Your suggestions are incredibly insulting to my gender.

Let me tell you something about Dean and NH. Howard Dean's been campaigning here since last winter. He's been all over my state for the last year - meetiing folks in cities and rural areas. His campaign staff have been here too, staying in our homes, and becoming part of our communities.

Clark joined the race in October. He had no staff in the north, and indeed visited northern NH for the first time this past month. He's run a bad campaign in NH - which isn't anything you ought to be blaming on the women or men in my state. Don't expect us to roll over for some guy who could not be bothered to even venture past the lower half of the state, once he finally decided to become a Democrat.

Of course we know more about Dean. He's put in way more time and energy. He didn't expect us to just fall over for him - he actually earned our interest and our votes.

[Larkspur]

44. Good obeservation on the main difference between Dean and Clark

Let me tell you something about Dean and NH. Howard Dean's been campaigning here since last winter. He's been all over my state for the last year - meetiing folks in cities and rural areas. His campaign staff have been here too, staying in our homes, and becoming part of our communities.

Clark joined the race in October. He had no staff in the north, and indeed visited northern NH for the first time this past month. He's run a bad campaign in NH - which isn't anything you ought to be blaming on the women or men in my state. Don't expect us to roll over for some guy who could not be bothered to even venture past the lower half of the state, once he finally decided to become a Democrat.

Of course we know more about Dean. He's put in way more time and energy. He didn't expect us to just fall over for him - he actually earned our interest and our votes.

It took 4 months after Al Gore bowed out for Howard Dean to get my support. Everything he has done since then has only strengthen my support for him and his campaign.

I was just up in Manchester, NH where I canvassed yesterday. (It started out at -4 degress and by noon it reach 8 above zero.) At one undecided voters home, a woman, I stopped at, told me she was leaning Clark, but liked Dean. She was honest and told me that she got most of her understanding about the candidates from the soundbites on the news and the soundbites made Dean seem more negative than positive. We talked for about an hour about Dean and I told her my concerns about Clark -- has no history of being in civilian politics and had no problem shipping my job to India. She did agree that military men were more authoritarian than she liked and his lack of civilian political experience is a concern. She also didn't like the fact that Clark had a problem with high paying jobs going overseas. She has a problem will all jobs being sent abroad. After our discussion, she went back into the Undecided column and said that she would look more at Dean. She doesn't use the Internet much. After I got back to Manchester Dean Headquarters, I wrote her a 3 page handwritten letter and included lots of Dean's issue statements in the packet I had the office send her.

My fingers are crossed and hope she votes for Dean in the Primary but at least I got her to take a more informative look at Dean.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Printer70]

43. Women probably don't like militarists

...like Clark. There is something about starting unilateral wars, bombing innocents, and engendering more violence in foreign nations that doesn't sit well with women. They may be on to something.

[dogman]

46. Do you really think they would rather be slaves?

I think protecting this country does more for women than some realize. Ask the Albanian women who show up at Clark rallies if they would have preferred rape and torture and the extermination of 1.5 million of their people.

[mouse7]

48. So are you saying Dean is pro-rape, pro-slavery, pro-genocide?

That's about as low as you can go if you are.

[dogman]

51. What?

I believe it was a defense of Clark to women who don't like the military. I realize the majority of women are smarter than that. However if Dean defends Milosevic as some of his supporters on DU that would be a fair assessment. I don't believe he is that ignorant however and would not hold him responsible for these people unless i was shown he felt that way, in which case I would have to vote for the unthinkable.

[QC]

58. The Slobophiles simply deny that any of that ever happened.

Therefore, in Sloboworld, there was no need for a military solution to the problem, because there was no problem to begin with, and thus the use of force in Greater Serbia was an unprovoked attack.

Besides, as Matt Taibbi points out, even if the accusations were true, why should tall, lovely people tolerate the presence of squatty, ugly people in their midst?

[stickdog]

49. That's right.The women are smarter.

The women are smarter. That's right.

[Lobo_13]

50. Men dig GI Joe

Or is it GI Wes?

Men are just more likely to view military service as a plus. Clark will have to work hard to get traction among most women. The question is can he do it in time?

[thebigthink]

52. It's a Guy Thing!

Something else that's interesting: I've actually noticed Kerry does really well with the ladies (that ole bird dog!). Women make up 60% of his support in some polls, and always over 50%. It's usually well under 50% for Dean.

[Killarney]

53. Another woman for Clark here.

The gap will close.

At first, I supported Dean and to be honest didn't even look too much into Clark. But when I did find out more about Clark, I started to lean more towards him and now I'm a converted Clarkie. :)

Do that same poll a month from now and you'll see a big difference. I think Clark was prematurely dismissed by many as just a military guy. The more media attention Clark gets, the more people hear what he has to say, the more people like him.

[gulliver]

54. Bad news for Dean. I think women who watch Clark ...

... probably react about the same way men do. The more you know Clark, the more you like him. I think this gender gap is soft.

[Larkspur]

60. This woman was bored by Clark and turned off by his arrogance

right from the beginning.

Saw Clark on C-Span at a Clark rally in NH and boring the daylights out of his own supporters. He has the charisma of a zombie.

And I think that it's arrogant of Clark to run for the Democratic nomination without having any proven record as a Democrat. He was still a registered Independent after he tossed his hat into the race. Maybe he should have run as an Independent. If he did, I wouldn't have a problem with him on the party affiliation issue and at least he would have been honest about his true party affiliation, but his sudden switch belies the fact that Clark has NO experience running civilian political campaigns nor has ever won civilian political office as a Democrat. We can't afford this kind of inexperience against Bush & Rove.

Unlike Clark, Dean has a proven record as a Democrat. Dean was humble enough to start at the bottom of the Party's infrastructure -- doing the grunt work on Jimmy Carter's 1980 re-election campaign. That work attracted the attention of Vermont's Democratic matriarch, who tapped him to be his county's Democratic Chairperson, and from that position he ran for elected office as a Democrat and won.

Unlike Clark, Dean won re-election to his last office 5 times, and the last bid prepped him for the upcoming battle against Bush & Rove. We don't know how Clark will fair under pressure and what little we did see of him getting pelted by Lieberman et all, showed that Clark wilts under that kind of pressure. When the heat goes up, will Clark suffer a meltdown?

Clark had the opportunity to prep himself for a presidential run, not necessarily in 2004 but later. He was offered by the Democratic Party in Arkansas to run for Arkansas's governorship as a Democrat in 2000 but he declined. That was a lost opportunity for the general to prove that he could run a civilian political campaign, win an election, govern well as a Democrat, and win re-election. Bad decision on Clark's part to bypass that opportunity.

[tedoll78]

57. Well.. if general elections are any indication..

Women are the smarter gender. And yes, this is a man saying that. ;)

[Crunchy Frog]

59. Well, I can only speak

for the women in my family, but me, my mother and my sister all love Clark and wouldn't even consider supporting anyone else. We are all lifelong liberal Democrats and we all arrived at our choices independently of one another. I think I can speak for all of us when I say that it isn't the military background that makes him appealing, (it isn't the speedo either). We just find some quality in him that really resonates with us.

That is my experience with a sample of 3 women, for what it's worth.