One highlight of Dean's pattern of misleadingness in debate

[Bombtrack]

(Paraphrasing)

Dean: heheh, "we didn't give tax-breaks to Bermuda, look, (changes subject)"

(later)

Kerry: "I didn't say you gave tax-breaks to Bermuda, i said...(explains Dean's tax-shelter history in Vermont)"



Now, Dean knew damn well what Kerry was talking about, but he continues his chronic, shameless, BS tactics with this "we didn't give tax breaks to Bermuda" line.

truely dispicable.

[Demobrat]

1. And the shame of it is

he's going to win anyway. Oh, well.

[BobbyJay]

3. Yes, he's going to win. Without 1 vote having been cast.

[Demobrat]

6. Must suck for you,

huh?

[BobbyJay]

7. Yes, it sucks. Why waste the money? Just nominate Dean right now.

[Skwmom]

2. Who does this remind you of?

Hint: he currently sleeps in the Whitehouse.

[Democrats unite]

5. Amen to that!

Which is why he is going to lose.

[CTLawGuy]

39. buddy, the white house dog?

[BobbyJay]

4. What do you expect though? He's running on Modale's '84 tax plan.

[DrBB]

8. Nice to see how things have deteriorated here on GD2004

Yup. Clearly the guy's not worth voting for. Beneath contempt. Might as well stay home.

Sheesh.

B.t.w., for the record: Clark supporter here.

on edit: sorry--meant this to be a response to the whole thread, not the particular post. Happens sometimes.

[BobbyJay]

11. You claim deterioration in discourse, but you have pictures of Mussolini

and Bush juxtaposed?

[DrBB]

37. Da wha?

A) It's satirical, and anyway the resemblence was too good to be passed up.

B) I'm referring to deterioriation within the Dem side itself. We use words like "pathological" and "despicable" against our own, how are we going to elect ANY of 'em???

Even though I support Clark over Dean, I recognize that Dean is a good guy and both candidates are fighting for a lot of the same things. I don't appreciate people demonizing Dean any more than I appreciate 'em demonizing Clark or any other candidate. It's not only wrong, it's stupid.

And for the record, I don't think Bush deserves anything but the utmost contempt, either for the life he's lead or for his record as president. Perhaps you disagree...? If so, I don't know what you're doing on this board.

[Scott Lee]

40. Oooooo please explain

Why you are so put off by Bush/Mussolini juxtapositions?

Everyone listen up!

OK, the floor is yours......?

[Don Claybrook]

9. Yes, it's terrible.

Dean kept jobs in the US, in Vermont even. What are we going to do with that guy?

[Bombtrack]

10. he has no problems with tax havens as long as they are in Vermont

He can't have it both ways, because Vermont is acting like a little Bermuda

And even if you believe that is fine, to be that way, don't act as if you'll be able to make the anti-tax haven case in a general election without looking like a hypoctrite

and more importantly don't twist somebodies words and then change the subject. That is what makes somebody a blowhard

[Don Claybrook]

12. There's this nagging little detail

Something about Bermuda not being a part of the United States, and I just check my terra'ist almanac, which tells me that Vermont still is a part of the US.

So it's only safe to assume that Dean will continue this same disgusting practice when he becomes president. That SOB will keep jobs in the United States! Now how are we going to change his mind and make him export our jobs offshore instead?

[Bombtrack]

15. then he should have adressed, not dodged the issue

Please, Oh god for once, please as a Dean-supporter admit Dean did something wrong, because you people as a group seem incapable of criticizing this seemingly infallable being. admit he dodged the question, please.

If not, tell me why he didn't dodge the question, or more aptly the charge, with his "we didn't give tax breaks TO Bermuda".

Because this is something he does alot. When given a charge he says he's been accused of something he wasn't accused of, then he refutes or dismisses what he wasn't accused of, and the person who tried to get him to explain his position or whatever the charge was is left shaking his head in disbelief at his utter shamelessness

[Don Claybrook]

18. You don't follow my posts

And I don't expect you to. But I'm all the time saying that Dean isn't a perfect candidate, just as I can frequently be found saying supportive things about other candidates. But, here we go anyway...

If you listened to the debate, you know that the questions were rapid-fire, and that Dean spent the first part of most questions giving a very short, clipped reply to things other candidates had said about him. This was one of those moments. Was he trying to avoid the question? It's possible, but I'll give him benefit of the doubt on this one. I have, however, stated before that I believe Dean should open the records on the meetings he had with energy executives as governor. I don't think there's much to hide there, but I believe it leaves a bad appearance and he should make the proceedings public.

There, do I get half credit?

[Bombtrack]

21. certainly

That's a hell of alot more than 90 percent of Dean supporters are willing to admit.

[Don Claybrook]

27. I try to follow some personal guidelines in this forum

Not that it matters to anyone else, but I try to:

-defend my candidate when he is attacked (in my subjective opinion), especially when he is the subject of the thread, i.e., not hijacked.
-admit when I think my candidate has done/said something wrong.
-lend my support to other candidates when they say something I like.
-stick to the subject if criticizing another candidate's position.
-limit the criticism of another candidate to the subject being discussed, except in the special exception where I'm trying to compare and contrast, e.g., someone says "Dean did such-and-such" and I'll say "well, Kerry did so-and-so, which is just as egregious", or similar.

I really don't expect anyone to care what my personal creed is with regard to GD:Primary, but I know I'll be backing the winner of the nomination with a good conscience. I also believe that we should all be able to find plenty of good things about all of the candidates (possible exception of 1), because they're all Democrats. Good god, we act like we're fighting against our mortal enemies here sometimes.

I'm done.

[Cha]

30. All I can say is....

I'm glad there are People like you on this board.

Yea! We got Bill Bradley! :D

[DemDogs]

20. Actually Vermont had job loss from NAFTA on Dean's watch

Which is why he opposed NAFTA -- another position he has changed.

[JI7]

13. hey bombtrack

edit your subject line to remove "pathological" to avoid getting this locked.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. Yep. Like pretending he wrote a book.

I'd say that's misleading too.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. I noticed that too

but I guess I'm getting used to Dean's duplicity.

[TexasSissy]

17. Yes, I've noticed this time and again.

Am wondering why everyone doesn't catch on?

I started out early on actually liking Dean. As I've gotten to know more about him, and heard him speak, I've grown to distrust virtually everything he says. I already have a President I can't trust or believe. Do I need a NEW one of those?

[Don Claybrook]

19. What have you noticed time and again?

What patterns of deceptiveness have you caught onto that the rest of us are too slow to catch?

Please help me, as I so desperately need the education.

[Bombtrack]

22. he either exaggerates or changes the subject to make/sell/dismiss a point

When given a charge he says he's been accused of something he wasn't accused of, then he refutes or dismisses what he wasn't accused of, and the person who tried to get him to explain his position or whatever the charge was is left shaking his head in disbelief at his utter shamelessness

The 'Gephardt/Gingritch/"your just wingin' it' charge at the debate months ago was a good example. Dean blew up that "nobody should be compared to Newt Gingritch" when in fact Gephardt wasn't comparing him to Gingritch at all, but he was talking about a policy difference, so he planted in peoples minds that Gephardt had accused him of something that he hadn't

[DemDogs]

23. Disingenuous? If not, here is the education

I was not for NAFTA - yet he signed a letter urging passage of NAFTA and attended the signing ceremony with Bush I

Against the DLC - yet he used to participate in DLC activities.

Will open records if Bush does - yet he balked when he found out that Bush had

Decries negative attacks - yet he was the first flamethrower and has kept it up in appearances, media interviews and mailings to voters and caucus goers.

Ethanol - was against, now is for

Race - says he is the only one talking about race even when told by reporter after reporter that they have heard Edwards mention it constantly in front of all white audiences

Religion - at the Planned Parenthood debate he said he did not have much interest in religion, he didn't go to church, yet now Jesus is important in his life.

Abortion - he said at the NARAL dinner that he had treated an underage pregnant patient he suspected of being inpregnated by her father, a story to show how he had a special appreciation of the issue of abortion, yet when questioned about whether he had reported the father or started any criminal investigation or spoken to the mother, he started back pedaling, ultimately ending up with the sotry that she turned out not to be pregnant by the father (as if that had anything to do with his responsibilities if he honestly did believe it at the time -- leading me to suspect he never believed it)

Do you want more? We can give you more IF you really want to be educated.

[w4rma]

26. Bush hasn't opened his records. (n/t)

[Don Claybrook]

32. Be Careful

1. Don't call me disingenuous, EVER.
2. He's changed. So has Al Gore. So has the putrid DLC, for that matter.
3. NAFTA: bad implementation, not against. If can't be fixed, needs to be scrapped.
4. Ethanol: whoring for votes. I'll give you that one.
5. Bush's records ARE NOT open. Try to get one, go ahead.
6. Abortion: the point was still made r.e. parental notification. Yes, he should've said something like "as it turns out, the father wasn't the father...".
7. Religion. He's not accustomed to talking about it. Sez "when in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in the South, talk about it, if it's important to the voters". Cultural acclimation, dude. This says nothing about his sincerity in his religion. Leave it alone.
8. Define negative attack.

[blm]

25. he either evades the question asked or

when he does answer, depends on conditions and qualifiers in his answer. Like throughout the Iraq war he would always strive to sound antiwar by saying he was against going in to Iraq unilaterally, even when the action was already multilateral. Gwen Ifill noted that he used the word unilateral 6 times in one answer. I saw that interview, he clung to it like a security blanket.

[Don Claybrook]

31. Iraq was unilateral and everyone knows it

Ask the British what they call their PM.

[blm]

33. Technically, legally, it was multilateral.

The point is Dean's qualifiers and conditions he hides behind to convey whatever he needs to convey. Not particularly straight forward, especially someone who claims to be a straight talker.

Like when asked if he was DLC, he answered that he "reads their literature."
Well, the straight answer would have been that he was DLC while governor. Instead, his answer was designed to imply that he was an outsider and not a member of the DLC.

The DLC only lists current office holders.

[Scott Lee]

41. Baloney.

That's wordsmithing if I ever saw it.

Everyone on this board knows that the Iraq War was the US's game...and they managed to get Britian to go along. Hardly a decisive multinational force.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. A smear.

[w4rma]

29. I did a search for the word "Bermuda" in the transcript. It's not there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54363-2004Jan4.html

[Bombtrack]

35. it was from todays debate on NPR

find a transcript from that, I'm not making it up

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. I did not see the debate

but I talked to my mom (age 82 and a CSPAN junkie) this afternoon, and although she knows that I'm a Kucinich supporter, she has her own opinions.

Her favorites are Edwards and Gephardt. She can't stand Lieberman, and is neutral towards Kerry and Kucinich.

She also doesn't like Dean, saying that he seems "shifty" and "insincere."

We had not talked about Dean, but there's someting about him that seems "off" to me, too. It's nothing I can put my finger on. He just reminds me of a smug salesman who says, "What can I say to get you to make a decision today?"

It's not a rational thing, but it's there.

I'm still at a loss to figure out why the previously unknown Clark inspires such enthusiasm and did before he'd even declared.

The Dean supporters and the Clark supporters can go back and forth till the end of the universe, but that won't change the fact that an unknown percentage of voters don't particularly like either of them.

[bhunt70]

36. My wife explained it almost the same way about Dean.

[blm]

38. I've felt that about Dean for a year now.

.

[genius]

42. Dean's campaign is based on lies. THis will ruin the credibility of

the Democratic Party.

[hellhathnofury]

43. You know their desperate when they make up words.

"misleadingness"? wtf

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the Dictionary search box to the right.

Suggestions for misleadingness:
1. misleadingly
2. niggardlinesses
3. niggardliness
4. mishandling
5. mislabelling
6. misrelating
7. misallocating
8. mislocating
9. mislabeling
10. misassembling

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Also making up conversations is pretty weak. You should use real examples.