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Gallup yesterday had Bush beating Dean by 5, now he beats him by 22!

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ringmastery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:22 PM
Original message
Gallup yesterday had Bush beating Dean by 5, now he beats him by 22!
I don't think CNN/Gallup polls can ever be trusted again. pure garbage. You don't swing 15 points in a matter of days.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-01-06-bush-poll-usat_x.htm

If Dean is the Democratic nominee, the poll finds, Bush beats him by 22 percentage points among likely voters. Against an unnamed Democrat, Bush wins by 17 percentage points.
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. More Bull
Pure garbage, and it's gonna get worse
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Gallup is the worst poll
Remember the 11 point swing in one in favor of Bush against Gore?

Has there ever been a poll where Gallup hasn't favored a Republican - even when the Democrats win?

Gallup lost my confidence a long time ago.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. noticed that too
and how CNN tried to basically discount it
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. The poll yesterday WAS NOT Gallup
It was a CNN/TIME poll performed over the holiday and CNN is running away from it as fast as they can.
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Perhaps it was a trial balloon??
It is 2004 now, and the main media whores are getting ready for every dirty trick they can think of. Maybe they just did this 'poll' to see if it would fly?? What arrogance!
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. This polls do seem to have no set plan.
I guess that is not how to put it but they usually go in some type of line, and these are just nuts.
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm really pissed!
Lou Dobbs, had a teaser into the poll story with the remark that the Democratic race was really "for second place".

Why are they trying to win this for Bush* this early in the game?

Are they actually that afraid of Dean, or are they trying to pump up another Dem?

If so, who?

This doesn't make much sense....not yet anyway.......
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. 5 points was Harris poll - this is Gallup
and Gallup always overstates the GOP approval.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. 5 points was CNN Time and they are lying.
I think we all need to be careful. All of us. They will do what they have to do.
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JDPhD Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. The poll with Dean only 5 behind Bush is the inaccurate one.
The latest Gallup poll which shows a 22 point Bush lead is probably fairly accurate. It is pretty well in line with other recent polls. The Harris poll (conducted for CNN/Time) that had Bush leading Dean by only 5 points is the oddball and likely not reflective of reality. I have been calling the Harris poll bogus since I first saw it. I can explain why I have thought so, but you need to understand a couple of things about how polls work:

First, the poll showing that Dean is close to Bush has a margin of error of + or - 4%. This means that even according to that poll Dean's support may be as high as 50% or as low as 42%, and Bush's support may be as high as 55% or as low as 47%. So, even by that (questionable) poll, Bush could have a lead as large as 13%.

Second, even the rather broad spectrum of possible results in the Harris poll (like all scientifically conducted polls) has a 95% likelihood of being accurate. To understand what this means, think about a basketball player who has a 95% probability of making a freethrow--he misses one out of every twenty times. So, while 19 out of 20 such polls do capture real public attitudes somewhere within their margins of error, 1 out 20 polls simply miss the mark. If the Harris poll that shows Dean only 5 points behind Bush is one the few polls that is just wrong (i.e. which fails to capture reality within its margin of error), then Dean must in actuality have less than 42% support (I am assuming he can't possibly have more than 50%). To know whether the Harris poll is the 1 out of 20 polls that is just plain wrong, we need to compare it to similar polls. Other polls asking the same question in the last few weeks have shown Dean with support in the low 40s or high 30s, and Bush with a 14%-22% lead (+ or - some margin of error--usually between 3% and 5%, depending on the particular poll's sample size). The recent Gallup poll is just the latest example of polling consensus that Bush has a big lead. The Harris poll that makes Dean look so "electable" therefore is likely incorrect.

Third, we then are left with two possibilities. (1) Something happened in the last week of 2003 to give Dean a huge boost that no other polls detected except the Harris poll; or (2) the Harris poll is simply one of the few wrong ones. Since I can't think of any reason to think (1) is true, my guess is that (2) is right. In fact, there is a good reason to believe that (2) is true. Scientific phone polling is becoming increasingly difficult and inaccurate as more and more people are not home, screen calls, refuse to answer polls, etc. These factors mean that the people who do answer the polls are not truly representative of the overall population. And all these problems become more extreme during a holiday. Holiday polls always yield questionable results--particularly since Republicans are more likely to be on vacation and less likely to be home than are Democrats. The Harris poll was conducted Dec 30th - Jan 1st--that alone makes its results questionable.

The latest Gallup poll, which seems to be fairly in line with other recent polls, is certainly much more accurate than the Harris poll done for CNN/Time. Bush's lead over Dean is much more likely to be 20+ points rather than only 5.

But this should not dishearten Dean supporters. Several times in recent presidential elections candidates have trailed there opponents by 20+ points and come back to win. What Dean supporters should fear is U.S success in Iraq. If troops are coming home and democracy looks to be taking root in Iraq in November, Dean will be steamrolled by Bush. Kind of sad, isn't it?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. There is another one in which it is Bush re-elect 46%/46%
I have seen others. The Democrat varies, but I think Bush's support is not as high as that.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thank you for your analysis
I haven't been able to find anything to explain the methodology of the polls in question. Since you are aware of their MOE and certainty, you must have found what I'm looking for.

Do you have a link to the poll data and methodology on which you rely for your analysis?
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adamrsilva Donating Member (636 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The CNN/Time poll may be inaccurate but Gallup poll
are GOP bullshit...
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. sorry--you're not correct, regardless of whomever your candidate is
Unless there is a random sample, which is increasingly unlikely with today's techniques, i.e., there is systematic bias in self-selection and possibly, in pollster selection of participants, no poll has a "95% likelihood of being accurate." Even with random sampling, the confidence interval means that there is a 95% likelihood of population results falling within the range of the number and the MOE either side of it.

You have no way of assessing "accuracy", particularly if you have not carefully reviewed the methods used (and the websites never include enough info to make a full assessment), have an independent, unbiased population measure, and are not looking at the history of the pollster's hit rates in prior polls using similar methods. That's what other posters are alluding to, i.e., they know that Gallup results have historically been "off", in favor of more conservative candidates.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. My bet?
Both numbers are wrong and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
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