Dean is too liberal, too conservative, too pragmatic, too idealogical

[Armstead]

I am amazed at all of this nonsense being thrown at Dean. As if he is some monsterous abberation.

Howard Dean is Howard Dean. Take it or leave it.

He's basically a practical politician who wants to do the right thing, but is also opportunistic. Most politicians are that way. He is different than the Washiongton mold because he says what he thinks. And sometimes, he expresses himself eloquently and sometimes he expresses himself poorly.

His record is neither conservative or liberal. Sometimes he favored business, sometimes he bucked business interests. It's also possible to see trhe interests of business as also being in the inetrests of his state.

Comon folks. Dean is a talented politician who has hit a responsive chord among many people. He also has alienated others. Political leaders who are strong personalities do that. Reagan did it, Clinton did it.

One thing he does represent is a change from the sleepy status qup of the DLC neo-Democrats. Maybe he's not the ideal candidate for some, but let's stop beating up on him just because he isn't a Stepford Democrat.

[JohnKleeb]

1. I am the one who finds him too moderate

If you find me saying hes too liberal, you know I am on something. Just to let ya know, these are different people making different points. Should he be the one, dont worry, I will support him but for now, its Kucinich.

[Armstead]

4. You're fine JK

You are a reasonable guy, and I totally understand your position. You don't usually bash. (My heart is with Dennis the K too, but i'm opting for pragmatic compromise.)

It's just these posts that portray Dean as the Anti-Christ that drive me up the wall.

[slinkerwink]

6. they drive me up the wall too because they're unfounded!

[cryofan]

2. Dean reveals himself through his own words

read Dean's own words:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Most of the Democrats in the legislature rebelled against Dean over the budget cuts, and he ended up depending on Republican votes to pass most of his proposals. At the time, a local Vermont newspaper wrote, "The biggest items on Dean’s agenda for next year are likely to provoke more opposition from the Democrats than the Republicans. Nevertheless, Dean said he feels no particular pressure to deliver the goods to his party or to promote the Democratic agenda."15

In the mid-1990s, Dean even aligned himself with the likes of Republican Newt Gingrich on his stance on cutting Medicare. He opined at the time, "The way to balance the budget is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut everything else."16
....
The Rutland Herald described how one protestor, Henrietta Jordan of the Vermont Center for Independent Living, "said it would be much fairer to raise taxes on people with expensive homes and cars, children in private school and a housekeeper at home than to cut programs that helped the 66,000 Vermonters living with disabilities."17 Dean responded callously, brushing off the pleas of Vermont’s most vulnerable by saying, "This seems like sort of the last gasp of the left here."18"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The rest of this article is here:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

[Armstead]

3. How many times will that article be dragged up?

[Scott Lee]

7. Not only that, the article is fucked.

Which I showed this guy in another thread. As much as my socialist blood doesn't like slamming a socialist source, this article needs a lot of work on its facts and citations.

[cryofan]

9. please elaborate on what is (supposedly) wrong with the article --eom

[FubarFly]

8. As many times as he is willing to post apparantly.

Is this the fourth or fifth thread I've seen this in tonight?
--

Don't let the less reasonable partisans or the trolls get to you Armstead.
The louder they howl, the better you know Dean is doing. :-)

On a side note, did you watch the Bradley endorsement video yet?
Wasn't it great?

;-)

[Atlant]

15. Until the project funding runs out. (NT)

[cryofan]

10. Until you can refute it, and no one has been able to do that yet --eom

[edzontar]

13. Enough already....

Read that!!!

Move on now....

[arewethereyet]

5. take it or leave it, how correct you are ! bravo

and the guy is who he is and has no interest in changing despite the cost to himself or the party he claims to be a part of (sort of).

I think people will leave it... in droves.

[revcarol]

11. Not who is the real Al Gore,

but who is the real Howard Dean. We are finally getting a clue, after he has been running more than one year. He has disappointed me.
So who is the real Howard Dean?

Disclaimer: can you tell that he is at the bottom of my list?

[CWebster]

12. Seems like every time I turn on the TV..

the pundits are discussing Dean---but always with a negative, cynical spin. The Goring has commenced. Notice you nary hear a word about Bush? They keep him low profile deliberately to keep the focus off him. Meanwhile, subtle and meanspirited jabs at Dean are the norm. CNN had some corporate lackey pundits on, participating in "Deanwatch", with that smirking whore, Gloria Borgia, last night. I happened to catch the segment were they posed a cute question to the viewing public prior to commercial break that went something like: Who said "it was a stupid mistake I made"? A) Howard Dean regarding his comment about Saddam. B) Bill Bradley for endorsing Dean C)Pete Rose.

It's a dirty set-up.

[Atlant]

25. The good part is that Dean's the kind of guy who'll give it right back! NT

[Atlant]

14. We could save a lot of time and bytes here on DU...

...If we just had one big "Dean Sucks!" note.

Then folks could just keep kicking that note to the top
every few seconds, kind of as though it were pinned.

But have faith, Armstead, this will soon all be over and
all those folks will have to find another bulletin board
to harass.

Atlant

[Cheswick2.0]

16. dup post

nevermind

[Cheswick2.0]

17. do you think we could find a couple hundred people to post here?

List of available names

SAHM4Dean
Teen4Dean
skippy4Dean
Hot4Howie
Bot4Dean

[Padraig18]

18. Some 'negatives' about Howard Dean that the average voters LIKES:

He's not adept at delivering 'polished' verbal pablum, by which I mean he is not good at speaking eloquently to the voters for hours at a time with all of them thinking they understand him to say exactly what they want to hear when, in fact, he has said nothing at all; Howard Dean does frequently 'shoot from the lip': you ask a question and you get an answer. Some times it's not elegantly nuanced, because he doesn't keep a dictionary and a thesaurus at hand to consider every possibly 'spin' someone can and will put on his every utterance. Fortunately for Gov. Dean, the voters do not listen to his answers looking to nuance or spin them--- they listen to his plain words and understand what he says *without* the deft 'spin' of another candidate's political hack/spinmeister.

Howard Dean is a pragmatic man, above all; he is not some rigid ideologue, but rather a seasoned politician who looks of wqorkable solutions to problems. Additionally, he is a fiscal conservative, as are the vast majority of the electorate. He believes in 'pay as you go' government, except in times of great national emergency, etc., again a policy with which the voters agree.

Finally, Howard Dean is not an 'angry man', although he IS angry about many things that have happened and are continuing to happen in America; what Howard Dean is is a man who does not use the phrase 'bovine excreta' when the plain English wordd 'bullshit' will suffice, just like most people.

:)

[Atlant]

24. Thank you -- well said! (NT)

[sandnsea]

19. It's because he flip-flops

His positions that he ran on last year are too liberal. But who he was in Vermont is conservative. So there are those of us who point out that he can be killed in the GE because he painted himself as a liberal. HE did it because that's the only way he can keep his particular supporters.

But what would he really do? Govern as a right of center compromiser. That's what he did in Vermont. He makes absolutely no sense as a Democratic candidate. He can be killed on his war statements and his tax-hiking, debt ridden socialized Vermont health plan. But if he got into office, he wouldn't represent anything Democrats want anyway.

Guns
Class-based AA
Snowmobiles in Yellowstone, which he just said he'd trust to the individual parks
Logging on Vermont State Lands - the Champion Lands which he calls an environmental win
NAFTA
Shoving Vermont Medicaid people into HMO's
His own statements against Single Payer
Selling Vermont Yankee after the CA blackouts which was recommended by his own deregulation commission.
Creating tax loopholes for corporations
Allowing Les Otten to expand ski resorts all over Vermont by appointing ski executives to the permitting board.

He's a totally useless candidate.

[Atlant]

21. Perhaps to you.

> He's a totally useless candidate.

Perhaps to you. But those of use who want Democrats who will actually
fight and win elections don't necessarily find him so.

Atlant

[cthrumatrix]

23. here here..... we are ABB&L

[Hep]

20. He's evil incarnate

And some people are really going to have to suck it up if they cast their vote for him in November. I'm working very hard to see that it happens. Shit sandwiches for all.

[Atlant]

22. What a shocking concept for a politician!

> Howard Dean is Howard Dean. Take it or leave it.

What a shocking concept for a politician! Are you sure that's legal?

Atlant

[Hawkeye-X]

26. Yep. Dean is just himself

Unlike a certain politican that recently switched as little as three months ago.