My heart says Dean, but my head says Clark

[Epoch]

I'm torn. I've been one of Dean's earliest supporters, donating about $100, signing up 170 new volunteers, starting a meetup, etc....

but I've been thinking....I think Clark is just a better candidate (I know all the reasons, southerner, general, etc... so I won't bother to repeat them). And what repub who supports Dean is gonna really say no to Clark? I'm torn. I just think that Dean has already been painted as a liberal, angry democrat (yes, I believe it even if I've heard all the arguments). When I've been tabling, people have said to me: "yeah i've heard of dean, but I'm not voting for him" or "I don't want info about THAT guy!"

So although I hope Dean wins, I think Clark has a better shot at winning the general election. I mean, democrats are gonna sweep the northeast, and left coast anyway! At least Clark can put LA, AK, WV, and some other southern states back into play! I don't believe could even come close to winning any of those states.

Maybe I've just convinced myself...I think I will support Clark with Dean as a close second. Clark/Dean anyone?

Although I do believe that Clark is handicapped by staying withing the spending limits. That'll definitly hurt him. And rove definitly has ammo against Clark.

This is how I see everything playing out:
Dean wins Iowa by a little, knocking Geph out. Clark surprises folks in NH and comes in second, with Dean not winning by as much, Lieb, Kerry are knocked out. Clark wins SC (knocking out Edwards), OK, ND, MO, and AZ, NM, and DE are tossups (although AZ and NM may lean Dean, does Clark have support or ground troops there?).
Depending on how Dean does, he either wins MI or if CLark is kicking some butt, loses (wow...out on a limb there I know).


Hmm...basically I think that Clark needs to win SC to win. The best way to do this is to place second in NH and get some Mo'.

I think I'm gonna go buy a Clark bumpersticker for my car. What do you think about putting it next to my Dean sticker?


on edit: And a big puhhleeasseee...to anyone who thinks that voters in the NW are gonnna vote for Bush over Clark cause he's too military...blah!

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. Support the one who is the best candidate,

Support the one who can wipe the floor with the mindless wonder. Can you just IMAGINE a debate between Clark and the chimp? OMG! Hahahaha! The vision is priceless. Clark is an amazing man. He WILL win SC. Every day he moves up in the polls and he's only been doing this for 4 months. The Dean camp just released this tidbit of information, yesterday...to lessen the impact for the Clark campaign...so kind of them, eh? Anyway, the Dean camp released to Fineman that Clark is polling 2nd in the polls in NH. :bounce: Clark's the man! He can do this! He WILL win!!!

As for his spending limits? Think Moveon.org and George Soros. :7

[Atman]

2. Rove has more dirt on Dean

I am with you, though. I just can't fathom Dean making it through a Rove assault. I am leaning heavily Clark. Gosh...and to think how many times I had posts locked for questioning Clark in the past! I've even been flamed and called a liar for saying I wanted to support him but needed more info!

Here...you can get the shirt on my site...Dean is on top on one side, Clark on the other.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. I appreciate your

maintaining an open mind. I know it can be really difficult in the extreme partisan atmosphere of this board.

It can be very hard to decide, I certainly understand that, especially if you are torn between doubts about one candidates electability, and doubts about the other one's authenticity.:)

[Lefta Dissenter]

57. Wow, cool graphic (eom)

[Clark4VotingRights]

3. Which is usually correct? Your heart or your head?

Or do they cancel each other out? :)

[Walt Starr]

4. My heart says Dean, my brain says if it's Clark, stay home

Nobody But Dean '04.

[BobbyJay]

36. Thanks, true democrat

not

[maxr4clark]

38. Would you consider

staying home for your primary election, too? Dean has this thing locked up, or so I hear. And besides which, any one of the Dems would beat Bush in the general election, so why worry at all. Have some koolaid and watch the ballgame.

[Walt Starr]

110. Nope, the primary is where it all will come out

Although I may still go to the polls to vote against both the DNC puppet and Bush if Dean loses the primary.

[LoneStarDem]

95. Like Hell!

Damn, that was fucking helpful.

If the NBD'ers want to take their ball and go home because their petty little feelings were hurt, then their selfishness is only exceeded by their stupidity. Is Dean my candidate? No. Is he my favorite? Not hardly. Would I gladly drag my balls across broken glass just to pull a lever for him against Bush? You're goddamn right I would. And so should anyone who is even marginally conscious of the way this country is going, and that goes for any of our candidates. Everyone who even considers them self even a marginal Democrat should be salivating at the chance to vote for anyone against Shrub; and anyone who wants to stay home, for any reason, should be beaten about the head with a Civics book.

People who make one-line drive-by posts make me sick.

[Jack_Dawson]

97. Amen to that brother...NBDers are petty and shortsighted

at best. Here's to you for seeing the big picture, and I feel the same way.

:toast:

[Walt Starr]

111. I look at the DNC and the RNC

and I see they both are working to shared goals. That was evident after 2002.

[bowens43]

104. I'm with you .....almost.

I will support any of the Democratic candidates, that rules out Clark. If Clark gets the nomination I will vote green or Socialist. If there is no Green or Socialist candidate on the ballot , I'll stay home. I think a win with Clark would not be a win at all. It will be the neocons sneaking in through the back door, I'd rather have them ring the bell and announce themselves like the bushies did.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jmaier]

7. Why did you do one too?

[BootinUp]

13. LOL! You're perty quick jmaier

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deminflorida]

8. Slinkerwink...

How could you? I'd have never suspected anything like that from you...

Good job, I have nothing but the utmost respect for a true soldier.

:hug:

[Epoch]

14. Look here!

I've been posting for Dean for months. I've started a meetup in Southern MD. I am the head of SOuthern maryland for Dean (go check our meetup at Nook and MOnks in Leonardtown, MD). We've signed up 170 supporters.

I've donated at least $100. I post on the blog as Epoch. And I've signed u for at least 6 get local events and attended. I am offended that you don't think I am legit. My car has two Dean bumperstickers on it and an Anyone But Bush '04 sticker on it. I preach t my friends, family and neighbors about Dean all the time.

So don't tell me I'm just a fraud! I've been at this since July.

[slinkerwink]

29. you're forgetting one thing----the matching federal funds

under the FEC rules, Clark can't raise any more than 45 million until July if he's nominated. The primaries is going to suck up a lot of his money, and the $20 million he'll have left will be pathetic against Bush's $200 million dollars in those three months between March and July. Clark is toast for opting in because he won't have enough money against Bush's propaganda machine.

Dean has the best chance against Bush in 2004 because he can raise more than 45 million dollars, hell, he's at 45 million now, and he can counter the Bush propaganda machine.

[BootinUp]

43. Clark can raise more than 45 mil - extra is earmarked for GE

[slinkerwink]

67. the law restricts him from doing that until the general election starts

in the summer.....so for three months, clark will have to go silent and be destroyed by Bush.

[RafterMan]

75. Check your math

If Clark has spent less than $15 million (probably true, given that he's only been running 4 months), then he can spend over $15m per quarter until the nomination.

Hardly a sitting duck.

[dave29]

80. against

180 million?

Think again.

[RafterMan]

84. Think again

Before July? Get real.

If D earns and spends his typical $15m/quarter, his only spending advantage will be his current cash on hand (whatever that is). Doubtless you imagine him ramping up his take by 5x current levels for each of the next two quarters. Whatever.

The convention is much sooner than you think.

[Lobo_13]

87. considering that he's only raised

18 mil so far, that leaves 3 mil cash on hand. Which means he can only raise about 27 mil more.

The problem is that he doesn't have the luxury of time here. The compressed schedule means he has to raise that money NOW. The nom will be decided by the middle of march at the latest, any longer, and Dean has the clear advantage because of money on hand.

But no matter what, Bush outspends him 4 to 1.

Horrible decision.

[Lobo_13]

86. He can raise it

but he can't spend it. And if he does raise it, then he can't take the 80 mil lump sum after the Dem convention.

[deminflorida]

59. Money's not everything Slink...there's courage..and faith of heart.

It'll take more than money to beat Bush...period. If Dean gets the nod I already said I'd pour my heart and soul into the effort.

[dave29]

81. Thats very true

why not have both?

Dean can beat Bush, there's no question in my heart :)

[deminflorida]

48. I believe you...Good Post Too!

Welcome Aboard, there's a battle afoot. We need all the help we can get...

[FubarFly]

17. Sure is demoralizing, huh slink

;-)

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. He has 125 post count.

He's not THAT new. C'Mon, slink. His post was great, he didn't bash anyone. He likes them both.

[Dookus]

22. Just because

YOU are admittedly dishonest doesn't mean we should automatically presume everybody else is.

[slinkerwink]

31. we should, and I am not dishonest---it was one time to prove my point

[Dookus]

32. Dean should try to defend himself

by saying "I only lied once".

[BootinUp]

44. go easy

on her, its been a tough day on Dean.

[oasis]

28. There's a 15,000 poster out there who claimed Dean was his guy. I

haven't seen his post for awhile but he's defended Lieberman in the past and I'm sure that he would be embarrassed by the recent Dean gaffes.

Like it or not, Dean is starting to become a liablity. I wish it were otherwise.

[windansea]

30. sounds like projection to me

live by the sock...die by the sock

[maddezmom]

103. LOL- "live by the sock...die by the sock"

:)

[deminflorida]

6. Don't get me wrong..

There was a time when Dean was the only one speaking up for me, like right after Al Gore abandoned all the hopes in the world I had for revenging him in my state.

But his stance on the Middle Class and Taxes...that did it.

He just can't beat Bush on that stand period. We have to move forward, this is a war of ideology and I'm following a General who has experience in War.

[PlanetBev]

25. You nailed it, Epoch

I'm a pragmatist, not an idealogue. I like Dean, but I've got a gut feeling everything is going to turn to shit if we nominate him. Dean inspired me because he's the first Democrat in a long time to have the conjones to back-sass the Right Wing. But I believe that Clark can put some of those Southern states back within our reach, along with the military vote. I believe with a Clark/Edwards ticket, we can't lose. We need two Southerners to pull this one off.

[oasis]

9. Both are capable of beating Bush.Clark won't have you on pins and needles.

[xultar]

10. All that is happening now is you're becoming more objective.

I went through the same thing with DK and JK. I support Clark but I like DL and JK. I've compared issues and the odds on winning the GE and I stuck with Clark. You may stick with Dean.

I like the 2 stickers on the bumper. I think I may do DK and JK on my bumper next to Clarks!
Thanks for the idea.

[angee_is_mad]

11. Be logical

use your head and your heart will follow!!!

[Crunchy Frog]

12. Clark has both my heart and my head

If you are interested in getting a real feel for the real Clark, you might consider going to the C-Span site and watching some of his town meetings and other appearences. I was already leaning towards Clark, and seeing those really sealed it for me.

You may end up seeing something there that captures your heart as well.

By the way, don't pay any attention to all the people here who will question the authenticity of your statement. This happens to anyone who says what you just did.:hi:

[MoonRiver]

15. My heart and mind say Clark! Welcome to the Clark camp!!!

You'll soon know what an absolutely wonderful candidate, human being, and liberal Democrat the General is.

I :loveya: General Clark!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

16. I'll stay with a fighter

I'm with dean through heart and head. And I'd say no to a clark/dean ticket. I rather Dean reject being the VP. It'll be a waste of talent in a VP that basically does nothing.

[Crunchy Frog]

41. I was intitially drawn to Dean

because he is a fighter. Then I watched Clark handle some of the right wing media whores and I was just blown away. I know we need a fighter to take down Bush, but we need an effective one. From everything I've seen of Clark he is a fighter and he does it really well.

I don't mean this as any disrespect to you support of Dean. People's assessments of the candidates can legitimately differ.:)

[Jerseycoa]

19. Welcome

:hi:

[FrenchieCat]

20. It's only about beating Bush...

and Clark can do it. That's it in a nutshell.

I haven't suffered for 3 years for nothing!

[MoonRiver]

45. Yes, that's the ultimate prize. But I also believe Clark is the best

candidate to turn this train wrecked country around.

Go Clark!!! :kick:

[Turkw]

21. I think Clark will only stay within the speed limits against other Dems.

He ready for the fight against the real enemies- Bush and Rove- and has already started calling them out.

His staying about the fray with the other Dems will help in the long run.

[incapsulated]

24. This year, Head trumps Heart

Or rather, if you have a heart, your head tells you we must beat Bush. If a candidate Clark is acceptable to you, and winning is a prority, please consider him, I honestly believe he has the best chance in the GE against Bush.

:)

 
 

[KittyWampus]

26. I Was Pretty Sad When Gore Bowed Out

and the only candidate that spoke to ME was Kucinich...

When the Draft Clark stuff started I was initially not really thrilled at the thought of supporting a General.

Having an ex-military authoritarian control freak father can do that to you...

But I managed to actually listen to him and read up on his record... and slowly I found myself defending Clark against the attacks he and his candidacy came under here on DU.

Eventually I realised Clark was very much an exceptional man, he is INNATELY driven to achieve excellence... but comes across as a regular guy you'd want to drink a beer with.


Clark is the one candidate I'd want with me if there was serious trouble ahead...

He was born with the ability to see & comprehend the Big Picture

[Crunchy Frog]

47. Oh, c'mon cryingshame

based on your post count and the amount of time you've been here, it's clear that your really just a plant from the Clark campaign.:evilgrin:

[KittyWampus]

55. I Don't Even Know What My Post Count Is

since we moved to the new DU2.

And I'm certainly not a Clark Campaign plant... I work for the Illuminati.

[Crunchy Frog]

89. I thought that

you worked for PNAC like me. You should hook up with them, they pay really well.:evilgrin:

[KittyWampus]

112. The Illuminati Doesn't Pay Anything

but we have a bitchin secret handshake. :)

[cally]

33. It took me a long time to come around to Clark

I first got interested because I knew how much it would help the Dem party to have a General on our side. Then I started paying attention and really listening to what he says and his policies. In some ways, since he in new to politics he can be more liberal than others. Both my heart and my head say Clark. I have never supported a candidate this much.

[BobbyJay]

34. We need a heady, clear-thinking approach

Listening too much to one's heart gave us '72, '84, '88.

[Lobo_13]

35. Then you obviously aren't using your head properly

Clark will go dark no later than April. Then Rove and the RW 527's will say whatever they want to about him, and he won't be able to counter any of it. Clark won't go back on the air until the beginning of August, and he'll have just two months to make up all the ground he lost. Which will be extensive.

He's spent more money in NH than any other candidate, including Dean, and his numbers haven't varied more than a couple of points. Remember that NH is a red state and a candidate that all of his supporters swear has crossover appeal should be doing much, much better than 15% or less after all of the money he's spent.

Clark simply can't win the General Election because he made a fatal error in accepting matching funds. With a grassroots organization that he is trying to build, he should have just rolled the dice and took his chances on his own.

Someone on his campaign didn't think the implications through.

[BobbyJay]

37. Scare tactics

Your only complaint is money? :eyes:


We have other avenues. I happen to think this issue is overblown.

[slinkerwink]

40. his post was that clark has no avenues in those months when he goes dark

to counter the Bush negative advertising machine.

[BobbyJay]

56. Dean wants to raise my taxes.

That will kill Dean more than anything that would happen to Clark because of a lack of money.

[Lobo_13]

63. Then you aren't using your imagination.

Rove will feel free to hit all of the traditional wedge issues. He supports Affirmative Action, Rove scares the South that the blacks will take their jobs. Gun control? Rove tells everyone in the south and MT, ID, ND, SD, IA, WI, MI, basically everywhere with hunters that he's a military man who wants to take your guns away (he gets the "cold dead fingers" crowd with that one too.) Gays? Doesn't matter if Clark is for it or not, Rove will just tell everyone that he is.

And in all of the above scenarios, Clark has no avenue to defend himself. Not the best tactical decision.

The difference with Dean is that he has a shot to counter Bush dollar for dollar, ad for ad.

[BobbyJay]

69. Whenever you mention Dean and the South I kind of giggle

Because he will lose every state there by double digits.

Clark being a four star general trumps alot of the things you talk about. He's from AR, and knows how the Southern system works. He has connections. He is part of the Arkansas network. Clark WILL win Arkansas in November if he is the nominee, and becomes a major player in Florida where he can tour the whole state as a war hero. He is in play in LA and TN I believe also. Dean is a non-factor in the South.

[BobbyJay]

70. Also, being perceived as a "tax increaser" plays HORRIBLY in the South.

[Lobo_13]

74. And yet,

Clark still can't answer any number of real and made up issues about him.

At least Dean gets the chance to fight. Clark sits on his hands.

But then, it's arguing in a circle. You refuse to acknowledge the fatal weakness of your candidate.

[Lobo_13]

72. So in other words

you don't actually understand the implications of the spending caps he decided to accept.

No tours because he can't spend more than 45 mil. No bus, no plane tickets, no hotel rooms, no lunches, no catering for events, no money to rent venues, no office supplies (I hope he stocked up).

Don't count on word of mouth between the well connected to add up to that many votes.

[BobbyJay]

76. scare tactics!!! oohhh oooh scare me!!!

I'm scared!!! I'll vote for Dean now!!!




LMAO

[Lobo_13]

58. I figured since

everyone's complaint about Dean is that he can't win because of "x", I'd give an actual reason why Clark can't win.

[BobbyJay]

61. Actually, Dean can't win because he wants to raise taxes on all Americans

I don't know what "x" is.




www.clark04.com

[maxr4clark]

49. In the political climate today,

fighting fair may be worth more than money.

[Lobo_13]

65. I have no doubt about that

but there won't be a fight after April if Clark gets the nom.

Dean at least has the chance to actually fight.

[John_H]

50. whew, a bizarre misunderstanding of campaign finance

1) you don't need 200 million to stay up. The only people who will be dark in April will be the folks out of the race, perhaps Howard Dean now that people are starting to recognize Clark and get to know Dean. 2)We've got 527's and other alternate means of paid media too. 3) The Democrats are totally incapable of defending their candidate? Let's just wrap it up now, then.

And the big one: 4)Howard Dean couldn't win with a billion dollars and Audie Murphy for a running mate.

You see, Howard Dean is eminently attackable--all the money in the world can't defend him.

Wes clark is almost impossible to attack on the election's chief issues. And all of Roves money can't change that.

[Lobo_13]

77. Not on my part

The assumption that Clark goes dark in April is based on the premise that he spends all or most of his money under the cap to get the nomination (Dean will likely beat 45 mil by the end of the month.).

Then the Clark campaign is dark until late July. This is not an opinion or a distorted version of what will happen. Clark will not be able to spend one dime on his campaign above 45 mil. NOT ONE DIME.

On to the 527's. This is dubious at best, since a 527 is not allowed to coordinate with a candidate in any way shape or form. So Clark will have no control over anything a Dem 527 will say or do. But that door also swings both ways. the RW 527's will most likely outspend the Dem ones because they have more resources to draw on. So at best, it's a push between 527's.

As they relate to Clark, he'll have to deal with whatever Bush spends against him AND the RW 527s. He's going to be outspent in the primary season by at least 3 to 1. What you are most likely going to see is Bush and 527's blanketing the airwaves against Clark, the Dem 527's going after Bush, Bush being able to defend himself easily, and Clark is just a spectator.

[KittyWampus]

62. Well, Clark Won't Have To Buy Air Time To Clean Up After Himself

if his past performance is an indication.

[pasadenaboy]

39. You seem very wishy washy

Are you sure you won't vote Bush in November? Why would you give money and volunteer for someone you don't believe in? That is really foolish.

[BobbyJay]

52. Wishy washy? This is the PRIMARY PROCESS

Get used to it. It's all about choosing a candidate right now. Why don't you back off?

[Epoch]

64. What?

Maybe that I chose to support Dean, until I got tired of his gaffes, and silly soundbytes that'll make him sound like a complete arrogant, angry democrat..a definite turnoff.

And I hate Bush as much as anyone else here. And I believe in Dean's message, I just don't think the majority of the US is open to it...or they will be kept from hearing it by the Rove-smear machine.

[John_H]

42. I was a huge early Dean supporter until he made himself

totally unelectable by running away from his record and making way too many diarrhea-of-the-mouth mistakes to beat Bush--who will not only run a totally "on message" campaign but will Attack Dean thirty-five ways from Tuesday on National Security. And the American people, with the help of the shilling media, will buy it.

Clark is the only candidate who takes all those attacks away. His record is unassailable. And his national security credentials are impeccable. He takes away Chimps only issue.

We need to face the facts. Dean would have been a great candidate in 2000. He may be a great candidate in 2008, God forbid. But in 2004 he doesn't have a shot in hell.

[Lobo_13]

54. about that

I'll bet all the money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that "The Truth" isn't a cornerstone of the Rove agenda.

No money from April to July = Clark is a war criminal, neo-nazi, fetus-eater.

Truth is not nearly as important as no ability to rebut.

[BobbyJay]

60. Bush would deface himself badly if he did what you suggest

I almost HOPE he does that.

[Epoch]

68. What are the specifics of CFR?

So clark can spend money until what date? And it can only be 45 million? And he can still raise money for the GE (which spending starts on what day?)

I'm not gonna throw my support behind anyone cause of the money issue, just curious. As others have said, there are other ways to spend the money.

[Lobo_13]

82. The scoop on cfr

Back in November, the Dem candidates were given the choice of accepting federal matching funds or going it alone.

Bush already declined and is planning 170-200 mil.

Dean declined because he's reasonably sure he can match Bush through small contributions.

God only knows why Kerry declined.

When you accept matching funds, you have to adhere to a strict cap of 45 mil. Once he's spent 45 mil, he can't cut any more checks for ANY reason. The cap is in effect through the Dem convention at the end of July. The assumption that he will run out of money is based on the cost of winning the nomination. If it's a protracted fight (guaranteed against Dean's 45 mil+ in the primary), he'll most likely reach the cap long before the convention before the nom is decided.

After the conventions, the candidate can take a lump sum of nearly 80 mil to finance the last few months. But that will still be upward of four months of dark time between March to July.

[OKNancy]

83. Why do you keep saying he will have no money?

He'll have money if he doesn't spend it all. Clark is a smart man, not only the economics background, but he was/is a licensed investment banker. He knows how to handle money. He has had really low expenses so far and a great grassroots organization. And of course everyone keeps repeating, but it falls on deaf ears, that there are other ways to get ones message out.

[Lobo_13]

85. Like what?

Exactly what is this plan to keep Clark in the public eye to get his message out when the campaign is forced to go dark?

He won't be able to get the nomination without spending the money. Dean has more than Clark by a pretty sizable margin, and Clark will have to keep pace with him in spending to even have the chance. Dean is simply going to outspend him. Probably by a wide margin.

Clark has spent more money in NH than any other candidate, but can't get his polls up past 15%.

[Forkboy]

46. My heart says Kucinich

my head says move to Bora Bora and eat coconuts.

[Renew Deal]

51. I would go with your head.

lol

[Forkboy]

71. I'm looking for a cargo plane to stowaway on

:)

[maxanne]

53. my knee says

Gephardt, and my butt says Lieberman.

[WillyT]

66. Follow Your Heart !!! --- 'Use The Force Luke', LOL !!!

Or not...

:shrug:

[Lefta Dissenter]

73. OK, so I've been Clark since Day 1

or pre-1, depending on when Day 1 was,

I admired him when I saw him on CNN, the only commentator who was actually coming out and criticizing the administration for going into Iraq. I heard him on NPR - can't remember exactly when it was, but it must have been spring or early summer, because I was weeding my garden, listening to the radio. I was AMAZED with the guy!

Then, I saw the draft Clark guys on CSpan, and that took me right to the internet and the Draft Campaign. OK, so I was convinced, I knew that this was the guy, I could see that he had the credentials and the dignity and honor, the brilliance, the compassion, and everything I was looking for in a president - but I had to get PAST the fact that he's a Military Man! Talk about left-wing prejudices!

BUT, the thing that absolutely clinched it for me was the first NH town hall meeting. If you haven't watched, you MUST! (go to Cspan to watch it). I just can't tell you how impressed I was with him, and his ability to answer any question. If he didn't know the answer, he didn't bullshit, he just said that he'd have to work on it and would let them know.

But then when I saw the tears in his eyes when that woman in the audience was telling about her experience of having been sexually abused in the military, and Clark APOLOGIZED to her, right there on the spot, because he was in a leadership position at the time (though different branch) and he was so incredibly sorry that she had been through that and that it hadn't been handled properly - that was IT! He didn't waffle, waiver, put it on someone else, he TOOK RESPONSIBILITY! He met privately with that woman after the town hall meeting, and (I just found this out last night) he called the Pentagon after that meeting and made sure that the woman would get the counselling she would need for post-traumatic stress... Oh my goodness... I simply can't imagine how this man can NOT be our next President!

OK, so I'm getting a little emotional and carried away... just go watch the town hall meeting...... :)

[LouisFC]

108. Henniker, Town Hall

Although I was already firmly behind Clark before this town hall. His apology to the military woman was an incredibly powerful moment. This video (also available at www.us4clark.com) is what I always recommend undecided voters should see first because his character, sincerity and sense of responsibility are clearly visible in his answers.

[finecraft]

78. Since you mentioned LA....Here's my two cents

I am the only Democrat working in an office full of what I would consider "moderate" republicans. (They outnumber me 8 to 1). They all know my feelings....I will vote for ABB. One of the guys came up to me today and asked me about the Democratic candidates. He flat out said that he had always voted Republican...but with no WMD found yet, he was seriously considering voting for a Dem candidate because he just can't accept his government lying, and the only way he could "punish" Bush was by not voting for him. He told me he watched the last debate, and was really impressed with Edwards, but would have liked to see Clark. The office manager came over and said that she had been wanting to ask me about Edwards for some time now, since she had visited his website and liked his stance on quite a few issues. After about 10 minutes, all 8 were standing around my desk talking about how they feel betrayed by Bush, some over the WMD issues, some over the out of control spending, and some over Bush's buddy Ashcroft and the Patriot act. Here's the bottom line.....all 8 are willing to vote Dem if Bush continues like he has and there are no WMD found, but none of them will vote Dem if Dean is the candidate. They all agreed that they could vote for Clark, Kerry or Edwards. The fact that any of the 8 people I work with (much less all 8!)would even consider voting for a Democrat is HUGE, but it would have to be anyone else but Dean. I'm not saying they are right, but I thought I would share this to let you know how some moderate Republicans here in Louisiana feel.

[NV1962]

96. Thanks

That was a clear and useful context; thanks for sharing that.

Wellll... It seems to me that the necessary votes in key Southern swing states will definitely be courted. You can bet that Wes Clark will have a major encore to his quick "True Grits" tour, driving the message home that your co-workers have a feasable punitive option for simply not voting at all (which I venture appears as the lesser of options to them.)

It's that Southern strategy thing again, and looking at the field, I think it will work this time. Message, profile, character, background, approach, ideas... I believe it fits.

In other words, I think that once Wes Clark, and maybe John Edwards, but especially Clark gets "his face out there" so people know what a Clark is, things will be on the up and up.

Keep us posted on how things are perceived later, as things gets hotter in the South.

[hellhathnofury]

79. Well it seem's you've made up your mind...I've got to try though.

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/GENERAL/PE2004/CAMPAIGN/pred04.php?action=indpred&id=425

That's how Dean wins.

My problem with Clark is that he's basically a packaged candidate. What we found out in the last election is that people like the appearance of a candidate being a straightalker who doesn't seem like the ordinary politician.

My fear is that Clark is too packaged; he hasn't learned his political experience lessons because we'll he's never ran for anything before. I guarantee you that Clark will make gaffes during the general and they'll be far more damaging than any Dean's would make. If you've noticed the Dean folks play pretty good defense. Clark has never truly had to play defense before which is by far the most dificult aspect of campaigning. What to do when things go to hell?

I also don't like Clark's campaign. It's seemed to me, though I haven't verified it and won't take the time too, that Clark mostly has 1996 and 2000 folks running his campaigns. 1996 was a different election, but they failed miserably in 2000(Gore the Liar). I liked the Draft Clark movement, activism is always good, but I doubt theyre running the show now.

The decision to accept matching funds was a huge mistake. Gore got outspent I believe 4-1 during the spring. The 529's can help some but theyre forbidden to advertise for particular candidates(I think) or to coordinate with the campaign itself. They'll help but it's no panacea. This could easily be a fatal mistake.

Clark doesn't have a completely clean record either (Shelton).

Dean's got all those things for him plus Clark is actually to the left on almost all issues. I believe the tax-raiser argument can be easily rebutted, take a look at some of the moveon contest ads. Dean has some charisma, the best campaign, experience and a solid platform.

Star's and degree's only go so far.

[NV1962]

100. Whoa... The "problem of character and integrity" myth lives!

Shelton never explained what he meant.

On the other hand, we have the evidence through public knowledge of the Medal of Freedoms that President Clinton himself awarded to Wes Clark - months after his rather abrupt dismissal as SACEUR. His sudden dismissal suggests that there was tension between the General and the administration, notably with Defense Secretary William Cohen: this is confirmed in this article highlighting and explaining those frictions; there is a reprint of a famous article by TNR editor Spencer Ackerman, pointing out those same frictions, available here. Yet, a few months later, Wes Clark gets one of the highest awards... Something must have changed, that Bill Clinton personally chose to do the honor. I submit that it's Bill Clinton knowing those "character and integrity" smears were bogus.

Lacking a retraction or explanation by Hugh Shelton himself of what exactly he meant with those problems of "character and integrity" I prefer the facts over Shelton's smear.

I believe Hugh Shelton is simply too embarrassed to come forward now that his statement has become so overtly ridiculous. He might be invited by Wes Clark to step forward and be a man, somewhat later in the campaign... Wouldn't surprise me.

Edited to add later:
I forgot Bill Clinton's statement, read aloud by Wes Clark during the trial of Milosevic, in The Hague, that asserting that General Wesley Clark "carried out the policy of the NATO alliance, which was to stop massive ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, with great skill, integrity and iron determination." source

[dave29]

88. But what do your private parts say

mine never lead me astray

ok, maybe they do. But still.

[adamrsilva]

90. Dean/Clark was only unbeatable ticket

And Clark took that away.

As for the question, I'm a Dean supporter, and I say let Dean and Clark fight it out. LET IT BE THE BATTLE OF THE DEM GODS. Dean and the hardcore base versus Clark and the establishment Clintonites. If Dean beats them, they he F*CKING DESERVES to take on Bush.

[Zomby Woof]

91. my heart and head say Kucinich

My colon says Dean.

[RetroLounge]

92. But what does your elbow say?

eom

[kerry-is-my-prez]

93. Dean would be very helpful as Clark's VP. I could go along with it.

This election is so important that I think we have to get the perosn best able to beat Bush. We can't be "monkeying around" with a candidate who "may or may not" beat Bush. It's not the time for taking chances. We should be DESPERATE to get BushCo out of office.

Clark is also very likeable. Every time I hear him speak - I want to dance in the streets that we could have someone like him as our President. (This is something - coming from a cynic like me!) I've worked for a lot of candidates and I have to say - I've NEVER felt this good about a candidate.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

94. I'll send you a bumpersticker for free. I have a bunch of 'em

Just PM me and send me your address.

[Jack_Dawson]

98. Trust your Head, Epoch

I live in California where all the "true republicans" wanted to vote for McClintock. But they were smart enough to vote for Arnold - in droves. Even fuckwits like Hannity talked about the head/heart argument and eventually settled on electability. That's why they play the game better.

To me, it's not a game, I believe Clark is the better candidate. But to those of you on the fence...trust your head on this one. Don't play into freeper hands. You're smarter than that.

[Clark Campaigner]

99. Yes, Trust your head and

trust Clark

[bowens43]

106. So you are in favor of giving up your principles for a win?

Party uber alles? No thanks. You mention Freepers, you imply that we should be more like them, more like Hannity. You say it's a game, I put more value in the future of country then that. It's NOT a game. It's deadly serious. If Clark is the nominee , the Freepers win no matter the out come of the election. A neocon is a neocon no matter the letter next to his name on the ballot.

[rogerhall]

101. Feed your head! :} -eom-

[w4rma]

102. Dean is the best candidate of the two, IMHO.

Clark is okay, but I think most of his support of fueled by his resume and what folks think other folks want.

Dean has already proven that he is a fantastic candidate, and he is, unlike Clark, helping to fundraise for Congressional Democraic candidates.

[Cheswick2.0]

105. You need to think again

sorry couldn't resist the obvious crack! Just a little humor here. :7

[Killarney]

107. I understand how you feel

I was leaning towards Dean for a while. He creates such passion in his followers. His speeches are riveting. He can really rally people. Lately, I have changed my mind and decided to support Clark because I think he has a better chance vs Bush in the GE. It's still early (for my primary anyway) for Dean to change his tax plan or for other things to change, but if I had to vote today I'd vote Clark. But I have an open mind. :) I would be proud to have either Dean or Clark as my candidate and my President.

[webkev]

109. My heart says Clark, My head says Clark

None of the other candidates come close
Clark is what our sides need..

someone who can lead to enact liberal principles for this country