Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

McCain retreated to safety, watched his ship burn on closed-circuit TV during his "3 AM moment"

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 02:48 PM
Original message
McCain retreated to safety, watched his ship burn on closed-circuit TV during his "3 AM moment"
TRIAL BY FIRE



http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain/page/4

Sometimes 3 a.m. moments occur at 10:52 in the morning.

It was July 29th, 1967, a hot, gusty morning in the Gulf of Tonkin atop the four-acre flight deck of the supercarrier USS Forrestal. Perched in the cockpit of his A-4 Skyhawk, Lt. Cmdr. John McCain ticked nervously through his preflight checklist.

Now 30 years old, McCain was trying to live up to his father's expectations, to finally be known as something other than the fuck-up grandson of one of the Navy's greatest admirals. That morning, preparing for his sixth bombing run over North Vietnam, the graying pilot's dreams of combat glory were beginning to seem within his reach.

Then, in an instant, the world around McCain erupted in flames. A six-foot-long Zuni rocket, inexplicably launched by an F-4 Phantom across the flight deck, ripped through the fuel tank of McCain's aircraft. Hundreds of gallons of fuel splashed onto the deck and came ablaze. Then: Clank. Clank. Two 1,000-pound bombs dropped from under the belly of McCain's stubby A-4, the Navy's "Tinkertoy Bomber," into the fire.

McCain, who knew more than most pilots about bailing out of a crippled aircraft, leapt forward out of the cockpit, swung himself down from the refueling probe protruding from the nose cone, rolled through the flames and ran to safety across the flight deck. Just then, one of his bombs "cooked off," blowing a crater in the deck and incinerating the sailors who had rushed past McCain with hoses and fire extinguishers. McCain was stung by tiny bits of shrapnel in his legs and chest, but the wounds weren't serious; his father would later report to friends that Johnny "came through without a scratch."

The damage to the Forrestal was far more grievous: The explosion set off a chain reaction of bombs, creating a devastating inferno that would kill 134 of the carrier's 5,000-man crew, injure 161 and threaten to sink the ship.

These are the moments that test men's mettle. Where leaders are born. Leaders like . . . Lt. Cmdr. Herb Hope, pilot of the A-4 three planes down from McCain's. Cornered by flames at the stern of the carrier, Hope hurled himself off the flight deck into a safety net and clambered into the hangar deck below, where the fire was spreading. According to an official Navy history of the fire, Hope then "gallantly took command of a firefighting team" that would help contain the conflagration and ultimately save the ship.

McCain displayed little of Hope's valor. Although he would soon regale The New York Times with tales of the heroism of the brave enlisted men who "stayed to help the pilots fight the fire," McCain took no part in dousing the flames himself. After going belowdecks and briefly helping sailors who were frantically trying to unload bombs from an elevator to the flight deck, McCain retreated to the safety of the "ready room," where off-duty pilots spent their noncombat hours talking trash and playing poker. There, McCain watched the conflagration unfold on the room's closed-circuit television — bearing distant witness to the valiant self-sacrifice of others who died trying to save the ship, pushing jets into the sea to keep their bombs from exploding on deck.

As the ship burned, McCain took a moment to mourn his misfortune; his combat career appeared to be going up in smoke. "This distressed me considerably," he recalls in Faith of My Fathers. "I feared my ambitions were among the casualties in the calamity that had claimed the Forrestal."

The fire blazed late into the night. The following morning, while oxygen-masked rescue workers toiled to recover bodies from the lower decks, McCain was making fast friends with R.W. "Johnny" Apple of The New York Times, who had arrived by helicopter to cover the deadliest Naval calamity since the Second World War. The son of admiralty surviving a near-death experience certainly made for good copy, and McCain colorfully recounted how he had saved his skin. But when Apple and other reporters left the ship, the story took an even stranger turn: McCain left with them. As the heroic crew of the Forrestal mourned its fallen brothers and the broken ship limped toward the Philippines for repairs, McCain zipped off to Saigon for what he recalls as "some welcome R&R."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. The USS Forrestal was in danger of being lost, and McCain hid...
Why do you think he tranferred to the USS Oriskany? Because he lost ALL repect of the crewman of Forrestal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm finding out that he's actually worse than Bush
Seriously. To me, Bush was (and is) a frat boy, a screw-up, a guy with a deep, deep Oedipal complex and no ambition beyond sitting back and letting money come to him through his family's power.

McCain, on the other hand (if you want to believe the recent Rolling Stone articles) had / has serious rage issues, little red flags like being defensive over his "diminutive" stature, which led him to pick constant fights with anyone who looked at him sideways (also documented in R.S.)...

But this whole "John McCain is a hero who gave his all for his country" riff rings a little hollow and seems like he'd be the kind of guy to cower in a Florida classroom reading a children's book if the U.S. ever came under attack.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Yes, but that was after he left the night of the fire for a 2 month vacation!
He met and nurtured an alliance with a NY Times reporter while the fire enraged killing and injuring more than a couple hundred sailors. Then he left that night with the reporter and partied. The reporter was the first of many that McCain pal'd with to promote his myth through the years.

His family did him, the Navy and our country a disservice by coddling and giving in to his every whim, temper-tantrums, error of judgments, and selfishness.

I read that long article the other night, and as I read it, I must have said "Wow!" a near dozen of times at his shallowness and callowness. Some of what was written I had heard in bits and pieces through the years, but to see it all in one article along with everything else - it just blew me away!

The thing is, McCain is delusionally spoiled enough to really believe in the myth of himself. So, when we see him talk during the debates or on the campaign trail, he honestly believes he is all that. When people tell him he's changed, he doesn't see it - and that is because he is still the selfish bastard he has always been.

One thing that struck me was why Cindy has bothered to stay with the bastard. With the emptiness and sadness she has endured, she could have taken her money and nice looks and found someone who would treat her well. But, one can never really pre-judge these sorts of things because we just don't know what her internal self-worth is. His treatment of women in general is sickening. Carol is fortunate to be away from him.

I noticed though, the article never spoke of his children. I wonder if it would have been too devastating to them.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. A "safe pair of hands"; a "firm hand on the tiller". Just what your country needs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. This diagram, from U.S. Navy Naval Aviation News, October, 1967...
Edited on Sun Oct-12-08 03:22 PM by Cooley Hurd
...shows the positions of LCDR White's and LCDR McCain's A-4's:

White was in #405 & McCain was in #416. It clearly shows that the Zuni rocket, from the F-4 #410, likely hit White's A-4, as it was directly in front of #410.

An apologist for McCain said the Zuni rocket hit McCain's A-4, knocking the bombs of its rack. However, as the diagram shows, it was LCDR White's A-4 that was hit, and it's speculated (convincingly) that McCain, upon the egress of his aircraft, accidentally dropped the bombs onto the flightdeck of Forrestal, killing several crewmembers fighting the fire. See this article:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081007_investigating_john_mccains_tragedy_at_sea/

Some of those who were on the Forrestal and other persons familiar with the ordnance told me that because the rocket did not hit McCain’s craft, only actions by the pilot could have caused any bomb to fall from McCain’s Skyhawk. These sources—who spoke under the condition that they not be publicly identified—agree with each other that, if any bomb fell from the McCain airplane, it was because of actions that he took either in error or panic upon seeing the fire on the deck or in his hasty exit from the plane. Two switches in the cockpit of a Skyhawk need to be thrown to drop such a bomb, according to the sources.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. safetycenter, Forrestal dot org & Wiki tells a different story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

http://www.forrestal.org/fidfacts/page13.htm

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/MEDIA/approach/theydidwhat/Forrestal.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:John_McCain

Lots of ordinance was cooked off by the flames, jet fuel was blown by the wind spreading the fire. I found no account that supports the accusations in the OP.

And the Enterprise had a similar Zuni rocket causing a a fire the year before. There was a known electrical surge problem that the OP ignores.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. K & R
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NatBurner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. I thought about this when he gave that tired "all hands on deck" line
at the last debate-

pitiful
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is pure utter unadulterated BULLSHIT!
The single biggest reason the situation got so bad had absolutely nothing to do with McCains hinted lack of gallantry, but rather the lack of proper management in controlling the fire. In fact some of the first causalities was the few officers in charge of exactly that task. From there on, the situation went from bad to worse. They simply made bad decisions. Lots of them.

The crew, now without its trained firefighters, tried to put out the fire with water. Not only did it not succeed, but it nearly also sunk the ship.

McCain was on the flight deck, in his plane, got hit by a rocket, the plane/bombs exploded, he escaped - END OF STORY.

This has nothing to do with candidate McCain in 2008, and was not, repeat NOT, a 3 a.m. moment!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Do you have anything to back up your "information," Nordic65?
And it certainly seems you feel very strongly about this...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Sorry, no link
I recently saw a documentary on the fire (National Geographic Channel ????) were they went trough the sequences of the disaster, and the single biggest contributor to the mess, after the initial explosions, was the lack of trained firefighters (already dead) and then the resulting lack of proper management in putting out the fire.

I'm sorry for being a little "hot headed" in my response, but it just looked to me as an unnecessary "guilty by association" / "character assassination" hit-piece kind of story. With little or no relevance to McCain in 2008. There must be lots of potential stories out there about him that are potentially much more revealing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Erin Elizabeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Where's your profile?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. 134 military personal died on that ship. Blaming McCain for any part of it is a no win situation
Its more important to understand that McCain was flying straight and level when his A-4 got hit by a SAM missile. Most A-4s were lost to AAA fire, not SAMs. The A-4 is a very manuaverable plan, and very good at avoiding SAMs.

It is more important that McCain lost his 3rd plane while returning from the Army Navy football game. Ever heard of drinking and driving ?

I've spoken to some liberal Vietnam Vets, they are not comfortable with this line of attack about the carrier fire.

At a certain point those who have not served, need to stand down and defer to those who have served. This might be one of those moments. I'll leave it to everyone to make up their own minds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crossroads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Hmmm seems this upset you greatly Nordic65!
Tell us how you know so much about this... got a link that proves it's BS or something?
CR
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Guilt by association? What are you talking about? The trained fire-fighters who'd been killed?
Edited on Sun Oct-12-08 04:42 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
The management who were trying to cope with a highly anomalous situation under immense pressure? The untrained stand-in sailors fighting the fire? What guilt by association would that be?

Did you read post 3? Or do you have reason to place more trust in a cable TV program than the US Navy Naval Aviation News?

What do you think about his swannning off with a journaist that evening?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crossroads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. What a ZERO he was and is! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. Much like he ran from the stage of the last debate
Edited on Sun Oct-12-08 04:17 PM by rainbow4321
to watch on TV the audience members gather around the Obamas

Looks like he didn't leave the building, after all, he just went and hid backstage.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Interesting Information
While I've defended McCain against the false tale floating around the internet and here at times that McCain started the Forrestal tragedy with a "wet-start" which is a complete BS story, it has disturbed me that unlike many others on the ship McCain seems to have done far far less in helping to fight the fires and retrieve the bodies.

This is even more disturbing to find out that McCain took off at first chance for R&R while shipmates bodies remained unrecovered and in many spots the ship was probably still burning.

From what I've read of much of McCain's naval career he was indeed a spoiled Admiral's brat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. Brave Sir Robin Ran Away
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. The book "Sailors to the End" says it hit McCain's plane
Sailors to the End: The Deadly Fire on the USS Forrestal
and the Heroes Who Fought It

by

Gregory A. Freeman

http://www.gregoryafreeman.com/template.html

See the book for full references
to source material for information in these excerpts.

Snipped due to CW issues:

The rocket then continued on, its course altered to the right by the collision
with the ordnanceman. Having traveled about 100 feet, the rocket then struck the A-4 Skyhawk piloted by John McCain....

... McCain felt a huge impact as the Zuni rocket tore through his plane on the right side and exited the left side, ripping open his fuel tank with 400 gallons of JP5 jet fuel. Two crewmen nearby were set on fire as the hot rocket exhaust passed by them. They were already rushing forward toward the island before the jet fuel spreading over
the deck ignited.


The fuel poured out of McCain’s torn plane, spreading to the rear of the ship rapidly as it was pushed not only by the 37 mph wind but by the exhausts of at least three jets positioned immediately in front of McCain’s plane. The jet fuel was ignited
soon by fragments of burning rocket propellant, but there was a delay of a second or
so as the fuel spilled from the plane, giving some crew members enough time to
realize the danger they were in. With a sudden, deafening “whoomp!” sound, the
fuel ignited and soon engulfed all of the A-4 Skyhawks parked on the port side....


... Forward at the origin of the fire, McCain was making the same decision as all
the other pilots who found themselves trapped in the fire. Like the others who would survive, McCain wasted no time in getting out of his plane. McCain flipped the switches to shut down his engines, and at about the same time, he heard two loud clanks as the 1,000-lb. bombs fell off his plane’s belly and hit the deck. McCain opened his canopy and threw himself out on the nose of his airplane. He walked out onto the narrow refueling probe and jumped down onto the deck and directly into the burning
fuel from his plane. He rolled through the fire to the forward edge of the inferno,
tumbling out with his flight suit on fire and covered in fuel. He quickly rolled and
patted out the flames on his clothes, then jumped to his feet, wasting no time in
running away from the scorching fire and toward the safety of the island. McCain ran
as fast as he could, glimpsing Dollarhide lying on the deck and being aided by others. He saw another pilot leaving his airplane in the same way he did, jumping into the fire and rolling clear. That pilot’s flight suit was in flames.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. K/R. Wow! I read the entire article, it was long but well worth it. John Sidney
has always been a nasty, lying piece of shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, absolutely...long article, well worth the time.
He was even nicknamed "McNasty" in his early days.

:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. Love Rolling Stone, but I dont like this angle of attack
Heres is the Oct '67 issue of military Avaition NEws.

http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/backissues/1960s/1967/oct67.pdf
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Oct 18th 2024, 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC