Support flows to the guy with a backbone

[dkf]

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/01/07/Columns/Support_flows_to_the_.shtml

Support flows to the guy with a backbone

Archive
By BILL MAXWELL, Times Staff Writer
Published January 7, 2004

For the nine Democrats trying to kick George W. Bush out of the White House, the first real test of their presidential timber - Iowa - is fast approaching. But as the caucuses draw near, the Democrats are doing what they do best: cannibalizing one another, especially the front-runner.

And why do they cannibalize one another? Because individually, with rare exceptions, most of those with serious campaigns have been spooked by Bush and are not strongly supporting Democratic issues and programs.

Currently, Howard Dean is the one Democrat - with a realistic chance of unseating Bush - who clearly stands for something and is unafraid of Bush. For his courage and efforts, Dean is garnering the endorsements of some other leading Democratic leaders, including former Vice President Al Gore and former Sen. Bill Bradley. Of course, Gore and Bradley are not officially running for office.

Democrats were beaten during the last mid-term elections in part because they did not stand for anything and because they did not stand up to Bush. They ran like scalded dogs from the party label, and they went into hiding when confronted with the dreaded "L" word, liberalism.

more

[rumguy]

1. Dean has backbone, yes...but so do Clark and Edwards

[ClintonTyree]

25. The same Clark.............

that fawned over Reagan and even Bush himself just a little over a year ago? The same Clark that until recently wasn't sure of his party affiliation? The same Edwards that has given Bush carte blanch since his coronation? Are we talking about the same Clark and Edwards?

[Jack_Dawson]

2. Reporters are afraid of Clark

I've noticed some real reticence lately. They don't want to get SMACKDOWN'd like Assman on Fox. Even Russert was at a loss for words. The General is not to be toyed with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I see it this way

Dean has a back bone, and leads becuase he got in early

Clark has a backbone and is catching

DK has a backbone but lacks a strategy.

The rest.. I dunno

[NV1962]

24. Agreed - n/t

[Clark Campaigner]

4. Clark has the backbone where it counts...

off the campaign trail.

[dkf]

5. Examples please?

What is the most politically courageous stance Clark has taken during this campaign?

[Dookus]

6. ok...

coming out unabashedly as a liberal on Bill Maher's show
proposing to raise taxes on the rich and lowering them on the poor
stating outright that the election theft of 2000 won't happen again
calling out Karl Rove by name
coming out clearly for civil unions for gays
coming our clearly for affirmative action
coming our clearly against Don't Ask, Don't Tell
coming out clearly against media consolidation
coming our clearly as a big supporter of Bill Clinton
coming out clearly for cuts in the pentagon budget
stating succinctly that HE would've caught Bin Laden


etc. etc.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. How about

Calling out PNAC by name, and openly talking about it's agenda. The only candidate to do that.

Talking about holding Bush accountable for the intelligence failures that led to 911-saying "When your in that seat, the buck stops here."

In favor of resuming the Kyoto process. Strong pro environmental stances.

Unabashed support of internationalism, including the UN, the ICC, international institutions, law, and cooperation as the guiding principles of American foreign policy

Taking on the RW media whores and making them soil themselves on air.

[dkf]

12. Hmm. A lot of these are kinda similar to everyone else.

Maybe the PNAC stuff, but he surely is not getting the heat that Gen. Zinni is getting for criticizing the Neo-Cons.

Zinni got accused of being Anti-Semitic!

Did Clark say he would have the US under the ICC as is? I hadn't seen that. Now that would be pretty courageous. Confirmation please.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. First of all, Gen Zinni

is not running for president, so this is not really relevant.

On the ICC, I don't know the precise details of Clarks positions, but he has spoken openly and supportively about it, which I'm not aware of other candidates doing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way, I have also seen veiled insinuations of Gen. Clark being antisemitic, by people like Richard Perle.

I have not seen other candidates be as sharply and pointedly outspoken on these things as I have observed in Clark. He may not be as shrill as Dean, but he packs a real punch. YMMV.:)

[dkf]

33. Actually, that's why Zinni is even more relevant!

He's doing it out of conviction and he has the credibility and access to the intelligence that is giving his arguments power. Zinni has said FLAT OUT that in his years in charge of bombing in Iraq and subsequent to that he NEVER saw any intelligence that specifically stated Iraq had WMD.

I'm really falling for Zinni, especially because he said the Vietnam war was based on lies and he was against it.

Zinni has huge political courage. If Gov. Dean is Dr. Steelies, Zinni is Gen. Steelies (as in balls of).

[dkf]

10. Only thing I really see there is cutting the pentagon budget.

The rest is kinda similar to everyone else dontcha think?

And did he say he was going to get rid of Don't ask don't tell? Last I heard he was kinda skirting the issue.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. From the look of your posts

It doesn't look like anyone could give you any examples of anything Clark has done that would convince you that he has displayed any backbone, so any further discussion of this matter with you would probably be pointless.:)

[dkf]

36. Did you read my posts?

I give him credit for advocating cutting the Pentagon Budget and for pledging to sign the US to the ICC.

If he advocates signing the Kyoto treaty as is that would also be courageous.

I would find those things pretty politically courageous.

[Crunchy Frog]

38. Well then, thank you

and I appreciate your acknowledgement.:)

[Clark Campaigner]

8. General Clark has an entire career of courage

Anyone can talk the talk during a political campaign, but Clark is the one candidate who has walked the walk for 40 years.

[Hoppin_Mad]

13. LOL ! He walked like a War Waging Republican for most of those years

But that seems to be his base.

[dkf]

14. Gee... thats a nice bunch of cliches there.

Nothing strike you as politically courageous in this campaign?

C'mon, even I could think of a few.

[Clark Campaigner]

15. Personally, I look more towards a candidate's record

than the empty promises they make on the stump.

[Hoppin_Mad]

16. His record as a Republican ? Lobbyist ? War Waging General ? What record ?

Pray tell, are you speaking of ?

[Forkboy]

18. What is that record you speak of

Dean has what,an eleven year record to go by (like it or not lol)? Where is this Clark record? What has he done for civil liberties,for helping the poor,etc.

[dkf]

20. What record?

What are you talking about?

Gen. Clark doesn't have a record because he's never been elected before.

How much leeway does a military official have in setting on-base policies anyway? Wouldn't a lot of that be set somewhere else? I'm not military savvy so I have no idea.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark Campaigner]

17. Sorry, I didn't realize this was a private party

for a Howard Dean circle jerk.

BTW, if you want to use some great Clark images too, just follow the link in my sig line to a cool source. ;)

[Crunchy Frog]

30. CC, if I might offer some friendly advice

it might be a good idea to tone things down a little bit. Some of your posts come on a little strong, and are likely to antagonize some people who support a different candidate.

It can be very difficult on this board, but many of us try to keep things as respectful towards others as possible (even though I don't always live up to that myself).:)

[Clark Campaigner]

32. considering that

we're being called "zealots" with "blood on our hands" who are "hijacking" threads by simply participating, I didn't think that my response was all that out of line.

As far as not "antagonizing" Dean supporters, is there some special unspoken rule about walking on eggshells around them, given their excitable dispositions?

[Crunchy Frog]

37. Only a very small number

of Dean supporters behave that way, and they do not all deserve to be painted with the same brush. There are many people in all camps who are trying to keep the dialogue as civil as possible in the current heated atmosphere. It might be a good idea to lurk a little, and try to familiarize yourself with the dynamics of this board.

I'm as enthusiastic about Clark as you are, but obnoxious behavior only serves to make our candidate and his supporters look bad.:)

[Forkboy]

41. I still want to know what Clark record you're reffering to above

[Clark Campaigner]

43. I'm talking about his record in NATO

Fort Hood, and in Vietnam.
What's Howard Dean's service record like?

[Forkboy]

47. That's not a political record

and that's the problem many have with Clark.You said you judge a candidate by their record but Clark's POLITICAL SERVICE record is non-existant.You're telling me you're so impressed by Clark because of the way he ran a military position which isn't even comparable.

Dean has a record of governing we can look at,for better or worse.Clark doesn't.It's as simple as that.

[Clark Campaigner]

50. Who says it has to be?

Politics is a game played by politicians where they get to be whatever they say they are -- until they're elected.

[Crunchy Frog]

27. I'm sorry

I honestly thought this was a thread about backbone, rather than about a specific candidate. Some people wanted examples of where Clark had demonstrated backbone, and I tried to provide some. It was not my intent to either hijack or offend. I apologize if I did either.

[dkf]

40. Hey Crunchy...no offense taken at all.

I thought it was a pretty interesting exchange myself.

I hope my posts didn't offend too much either. It's just my outspoken biased opinion.

I'm actually surprised the way this thread has gone. I posted the 1st few paragraphs never thinking it would turn into a "backbone" contest.

Too funny.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. Thanks dkf

no, your posts didn't offend, I think we're all a little outspokenly biased about our particular candidates right now. I know I am.:)

I wasn't thinking of it in terms of a backbone contest, only wanting to point out that at least two of our candidates have displayed real backbone. I think we can all be proud of both of them. :)

[Adjoran]

7. Nobody doubts Dean's backbone

It's his jawbone that worries us.

[Dookus]

19. LOL...

good reply

Dean has rejected traditional liberal principles on:

campaign finance reform
gun control
open government
energy deregulation
clean elections

and a few more things I could list if I were willing to take the time.

He's not a liberal. Not even close. His supporters seem to hate the DLC, but Dean is to the RIGHT of the DLC.

Clark is the real liberal, electable candidate.

[dkf]

22. I'm a moderate myself but here are my thoughts

Dean realizes that taking matching funds is political suicide. I wish Clark had made the same decision because if he is the nominee, he is basically dead meat from April to July.

I've come to the conclusion that as someone who does not want my right to choose taken away, I should also respect that gun owners fear their rights will be taken away. Whenever you threaten what people consider is their right they will fight tooth and nail. I think gun owners will respect reasonable limits, but I can see where they have a point (especially after noticing how this administration is seizing power from the other branches of govt).

That whole open records things is a load of bull. Heck Clinton's Arkansas papers still aren't open. Dean has released the majority of his and I do think that there are sealed papers with the most vitriolic hate speech against gays ever in addition to very personal appeals to Gov. Dean. Is that really something we want out there?

I find it very ironic that you are talking about energy deregulation because Dean is the one who got clobbered for suggesting that energy needed to be re-regulated (remember that? Clark hit him pretty hard on re-regulation).

re: Clean elections...hah? Don't get it.

[formactv]

35. Dean is a moderate

and Bush is a radical. Real radical.

[Forkboy]

21. If that headline were true

Kucinich would be in the lead.

[dkf]

26. You know...Kucinich DOES have backbone.

I must agree with that statement.

I like him more and more every day, even though some of his proposals are a little much for me.

Kucinich is ahead of his time but some of his arguments are going to find resonance as time passes. I really do think so.

[Forkboy]

28. I hope so

He strikes me as a good man with good ideas and the courage to push them.

[Clark Campaigner]

29. I thought that Howard Dean had a problem with his backbone

that got him out of serving in Vietnam.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Concerning the dreaded "L" word

From Bill Maher:

Maher: Howard Dean said "...In Vermont, you know, politics is much
farther to the left. A Vermont centrist is an American liberal right
now." And then his campaign manager came out and said "That's not an
admission he's a liberal!" Which, quite frankly pissed me off. Somehow
they hijacked that word. And you're a Democrat, you said that last week.
Clark: Absolutely. (audience applause)
Maher: OK. I'm just wondering, of all the people who have the
credentials to say "liberal" is not a bad word, I'm wondering if I could
get you to say that.
Clark: Well, I'll say it right now.
Maher: Good for you!
Clark: We live in a liberal democracy. That's what we created in this
country. It's in our constitution! We should be very clear on this...
this country was founded on the principles of the enlightenment. It was
the idea that people could talk, have reasonable dialogue and discuss
the issues. It wasn't founded on the idea that someone would get struck
by a divine inspiration and know everything, right from wrong. People
who founded this country had religion, they had strong beliefs, but they
believed in reason, and dialogue, and civil discourse. We can't lose
that in this country. We've got to get it back.

[dkf]

39. Liberals don't advocate constitutional bans against flag burning

Basic no-no.

I'd call Clark a moderate myself.

[Crunchy Frog]

45. Yeah, I agree with you on that one

however, very few of our other candidates are completely pure on that score, including Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich.

Nevertheless, my post did demonstrate a willingness not to run away from the word "liberal", which was what that article was referring to.

The flag burning issue, while important, is still a separate issue.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. and you don't even understand the word game Clark is playing?

He is playing us. A liberal democracy (yes indeed we do live in one), by Clark's definition Bush is a liberal. Please find out what Liberal Democracy means in terms of the world rather than the parochial meaning you think Clark is attaching to it.

[dkf]

46. Wow... you are right.

That's not very nice trying to trick his supporters into thinking that believing in a liberal democracy means he is a liberal.

Fascinating.

[Mairead]

48. Well, Dean makes a lot of noise at least. But when you boil it down

and skim the fat off the top, all he's really doing is standing four-square for the status quo. He uses his backbone to support the interests of the wealthy elites above the interests of working people.

He's not going to cut the obscene war-industry budget, now approaching the size of all other war budgets in the world combined. Nope, it's off the table. Too many of his wealthy peers profit from it.

He's not going to take the hands of the wealthy elites out of our pockets on healthcare. Instead he wants to give them $88G MORE per year while still leaving 10M people without healthcare. He claims that 10M are people who would opt out. Well, who would opt out? Obviously the very wealthy and the privileged healthy young. Which means that Dean's healthcare will be a multi-tier systems like public education: inadequate for the poor, marginal for the middle, and attacked relentlessly by the wealthy. (edit: Dean owns some sort of company, or companies. Is it an HMO by any chance? I know I read something about it earlier in the year. I can't quite remember what it was, but half-a-memory says 'HMO'. Anyone know?)

Dean's not going to end the drug war--he now makes no mention of mmj or the drugs war at all. But if by some miracle he were to re-"evolve" and follow through on his earlier claims, all it would amount to is switching some money out of the prison industry only to funnel it into the same elite pockets via the healthcare industry.

He says full civil rights for LGB people are a state issue...which is both the status quo and false (equal-treatment clause of the Fourteenth Amendment).

He says he's going to balance the budget. But on whose backs? Ours! Same as he did in Vermont: cut social programs. It's the GOP Way!

Yep, if you want Bush Lite, then Dean's your guy.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

51. Mairead you nailed it again...

Great post, and it still amazes me that a DOCTOR has such a crappy position on medical marijuana! He knows the truth, why is he pandering to the war-on-drugs crowd?

TWL

[maxr4clark]

49. Goldwater had backbone...

enough to get him nominated. Backbone isn't the only issue.