Dirty Tricks Against Clark

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

Last night at a Clark event in New Hampshire, where a packed (standing room only) middle school auditorium saw General Clark's town hall meeting, flyers were placed on the windshields of the attendees. These flyers made numerous false and misleading claims against General Clark including claiming General Clark was a Republican and Pro-War. These flyers were filled with other blatantly false statements. These flyers mentioned nothing positive about any of the other candidates, but at the bottom, they claimed to have been printed by a volunteer for Dean. I am not even accusing Dean or his campaign printing and distributing the flyers; I am just stating the facts of the incident.

I helped remove these flyers from the cars before most of the attendees saw them. No one knows who really printed and distributed these flyers, but I think we should all speak out against these dirty tactics. General Clark has not engaged in these tactics and no other candidates should either.

I add that an advertisement for an event with Senator Edwards was also left on the attendees' cars. There is nothing wrong with this, and I mention this to distinguish between above the belt and below the belt campaigning. While we may all have once been guilty of less than honorable campaign tactics, let us unite and denounce such tactics by any candidate or his/her surrogates.


Expect to hear about this soon in the media.

[maddezmom]

1. when it hits the media, then it might be credible

but seems like speculation on which candidate did what. RATM, sorry didn't realize you were there. Didn't mean to imply you were lying.

[TrueAmerican]

4. What's the rumor?

You have a first hand account of what transpired. You are not suggesting the Clark supporter is lying?

[maddezmom]

5. ok- speculation on who is making the flyers

I'll edit.

[Walt Starr]

6. A single post on an internet message board is not a credible source

I need independent verification.

[robbedvoter]

8. Why get so defensive? Man recounts actual experience, does NOT blame

Dean and you call him liar...I think I just may jump to a conclusion from this reaction.

[maddezmom]

jump to a conclusion?

:(

[Walt Starr]

20. A single posting on an internet message board is not a credible source

Independent verification is required.

[Clark Can WIN]

31. We'll remember that when you or another Dean supporter

posts any personal account. Walt Starr says nobody can be believed to tell the truth without independent verification.

[Walt Starr]

42. All he had to do was scan the thing and post a lin to the scan.

It's pretty simple to begin backing up claims made on an internet message board.

I've seen all sorts of claims made as personal accounts of events on internet message boards. They are without veracity without independent verification.

[maddezmom]

robbedvoter sent you a PM

please read....and I never called anyone a liar.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

168. They just mentioned this on CNN.

n/t

[meow mix]

182. it hit

and theway it was presented made dean look pretty cheap and dirty. wether or not he authorized it.. i dunno, im just saying thats the way it was presented on the broadcast ive seen twice now.

[Moderator]

183. I am locking this thread for the time being.

Please remember, if you think that someone is a disruptor, please use the alert button so that the mods and Admins can take care of it. Calling someone a disruptor or insinuating that someone is a disruptor is a DU rule violation.


DU Moderator

[TrueAmerican]

2. I don't know how you are going to stop the Dean campaign

They want to win at all costs. Clark just has to keep running a clean campaign and hopefully the people will see the tricks for what they are.

[Larkspur]

10. Clark running a clean campaign? not with Chris Lehane on his staff

The BS about Dean offering him a VP position was Clark whining about lagging way behind Dean in the polls in New Hampshire and a cheap way to get media attention.

[TrueAmerican]

15. Were you there?

It was a private meeting between General Clark and Gov. Dean.

You don't know, if true or not.

[Larkspur]

36. Dean has publicly said that he never offered the VP slot to Clark

He did ask Clark about joining his campaign if Clark decided not to run for Prez. The press interpreted that offer as Dean offering Clark the VP slot. Clark obviously played on that.

[TrueAmerican]

64. And Clark said it was on the table

So it comes down to who you believe.

[Larkspur]

163. Considering that Dean had nothing to gain from Clark as a VP

I believe Dean over Clark, the political opportunist.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

159. Not quite.

Care to prove it's BS? As if you could.

The issue didn't come up because of Clark - it came up because of Dean's proclamation that he needed a VP who could plug a hole in his foreign policy experience.

Blame Clark for saying the offer was made, blame Dean for denying it, it's up to you - but the issue wasn't created by the Clark campaign, as much as you might like to think so.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

171. It trickles down. "clean" candidate = "clean" campaign.

sure, there's slip-ups every once in a while. But you start to see a pattern. I think that Dean has run a somewhat "sleazy" campaign. I've seen worse though (having worked in Chicago politics).

[kerry-is-my-prez]

181. Why did one of Dean's ex-campaign say that Dean offered it?

I think I'd believe Clark before Dean - thank you very much. Dean does a bit too much flip-flopping and "changing his stories" for me to trust him too much.

[xultar]

3. All's fair...No biggie

Clark is a big boy. He can handle this. I'm 99% sure that even if people actually saw the flyers they wouldn't put a dent in the General's support. Why? Because no one who sees the General in person or has read his books or followed his candadicy would buy into the negative campaigning.

KKKarl Rove has tricks we haven't seen yet. There isn't a depth to which the RW wouldn't stoop to spear any of our candidates. For all we know it could have been a KKKarl Rove ploy like with the videotape.

So no biggie. Expect stuff like this. What counts is you worked to remove the flyers. Thanks T.

[HFishbine]

7. Why did you remove the flyers?

Censorship?

[Renew Deal]

11. There are 3 reasons.

1 is they are against the rules. They have to be paid for by a campaign or PAC and it has to say it on a flyer.

Second... Lies

Third... It is a Clark event. They have the right.

You wouldn't have a problem removing them if it happened to your candidate.

[TrueAmerican]

12. He probably meant to clean up the place

Putting trash on peoples cars is the same as littering. You should be thanking him instead of attacking his motives.

[jonnyblitz]

34. how nice for you to decide for others what is 'trash"

I am sure people can decide for themselves what is trash. I presume you wouldn't take issue with these flyers if they were pro-Clark.

[CWebster]

9. Speaking of dirty...

consider the source.

[powerpuffgrrl]

13. Considering the dirty tricks

of the source, I'm not prepared to believe this one yet.

We ALL need to stop the divisive behavior, and I'm not convinced this fellow Clark supporter has done thatyet.

[Democrats unite]

14. Some people here protest to much about you post...

Because it is obvious who is behind this.

[Padraig18]

16. Ehh...

I grew up in Chicago, where politics is a blood sport; frankly, I would be surprised if it were in fact a Dean supporter, because an equally-credible argument for it being the work of a Dean opponent can be made.

God, I'll be glad when the primaries are over! :P

[xultar]

17. Amen! n/t

[KittyWampus]

29. You Have A Witness Padraig!

This sort of thing definately won't stop though...

Somewheres right now there're some people thinking up crap to pull on opposition candidates right now.

By the way, has anyone seen the script for that new Iowa anti-Dean ad from the wingnuts...

It's so stupid it's funny.

[Walt Starr]

32. A single posting on a message board does not a witness make

I've seen no credible evidence to support the assertions of the original poisting in this thread, ergo, it is not a credible claim.

[John_H]

18. The Dean Campaign can't have it both ways

If they're truly running "a different kind of campaign," one which put's the power and responsibility in the hands of their "perfect storm" of activists, then when shit like the above is pulled it's pulled by the Dean campaign not "just a volunteer."

The upside to this is that it proves yet again that everyone is scared of Clark--from Howard Dean to KKKarl Rove. Why? Because they know he can and probably will win.

[Padraig18]

24. you don't *know* that the Dean campaign is involved at all, frankly.

The initial poster did not even make that claim.

[sandnsea]

19. Scan and post

Obviously nobody will believe it unless you can prove it. Next time scan and upload to a free picture server. Then you can provide a link and prove it.

[powerpuffgrrl]

21. Even so,

it would still not be credible.

Anybody could make one of these up and post it, claiming they found it on a car.

The best way is just to stop the divisive behavior completely and only promote the candidate you choose. Being kind and positive is contagious, and until we begin to act that way, we will only be ripped further apart.

[sandnsea]

26. It's not going to happen

Hasn't happened for the entire year. In fact, hasn't happened in the history of campaigning. And if Dean decides to zero in on Clark, Clark will have to respond. He's had the benefit of Kerry and Gephardt doing it for him for a while now. Sooner or later he'll have to confront Dean on his own. Campaigns aren't all sugar and spice, the candidates have to point out the differences between them.

[powerpuffgrrl]

30. Candidates, sure

But I wasn't talking about the candidates. i was talking about the people on DU who are actively attacking candidates and each other.

The candidates can run their campaigns as they wish, but why do WE have to be the ones in the mud?

I thought we were all from the same party?

[Kahuna]

37. Politics is a contact sport. That's a very old saying..

Politics has never been pleasant. And I doubt that it ever will be.

[Padraig18]

40. I grew up in Chicago.

The behavior of all the candidates is decidely tame, by Chicago standards. :P

[Walt Starr]

43. Especially when it comes to Chicago Democratic priamries

since the Democratic primaries are the REAL elections in Chicago.

Emanuel savaged his opponents in 2002, IIRC.

;)

[Padraig18]

49. You are correct.

Chicago politics is bare-knuckled, knock-down-drag-out mean. They are also VERY practical, which is why I'm somewhat restrained in terms of joining in the 'pilke-on' threads. Rule #1 of Chicago politics is "Never jump in front of a perfectly good train wreck". If, for example, Sen. Kerry's campaign is 'tanking', then just let it tank, but don't jump into the middle of the wreck.

[oasis]

22. Most likely the work of Freepertypes. No campaign would be dumb enough

to claim resposibility. Just freepers making trouble.

[Renew Deal]

23. Or individuals

Supporters of a candidate can do anything. It could be some over-zealous supporter.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kahuna]

38. That's my guess...

Once again Bleachers, you are the voice of reason. :hi:

[SayitAintSo]

46. My thoughts exactly ...

n/t

[sfecap]

25. Well...

He is a republican and he's pro war. Where's the falsehoods?


"I was one of those before the war who said, “Don’t focus on Saddam Hussein. Go in there, take over the government and you’ll take care of things.” - Wes Clark.

[Renew Deal]

33. Context

maybe even a link would be nice.

[Jerseycoa]

27. Did you keep one?

I would like to see it scanned and posted. I would doubt Dean supporters are that stupid to put a legend at the bottom that connects to Dean. Still, the content is the same as what Dean supporters are posting here at DU and what the RW posts on their slam site, so there's no way of knowing.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

35. Yes I do

I am currently in New Hampshire and have no access to a scanner, and for the record, I doubt a Dean supporter actually did it. Some have speculated a Lieberman supporter ... for obvious reasons. The Lieberman people here in New Hampshire chant, "Clark is a Republican" whenever we are near their office. But we have no way of knowing who did it. Bleacher, check your msgs.

[grannylib]

39. Sounds like it might also be a dirty trick against Dean, trying to link

him to something I am sure he is not stupid/low/desperate enough to do.
I am also sure that anyone who was smart enough to show at the Clark gathering is also intelligent enough to decide for themselves that the 'information' in the flyers was bogus.

[LTR]

41. I think it's a freeper

Why would they put "Dean supporter" on it?

Just some moran stirring up trouble, that's all.

[Walt Starr]

44. Please provide a link to independent confirmation of your assertions.

Thank you.

[Walt Starr]

51. I'm still waiting on any shred of corroborating evidence for the assertion

Thanks.

[SayitAintSo]

45. Rove pulled that crap against McCain here in SC in 2000

Sounds like the Bush-shit tactic that gave a chickenhawk a win over a war hero, in a military dominant red state.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

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[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

124. Earth to Scott Lee

There are several websites that are anti-Dean ... I suppose I started ALL of them ... i know there's a dean/mcgovern one too ...

In case you haven't noticed, a lot people are not fond of Howard Dean and have plenty of motive to start Stop Dean sites

I'm done discussing this

No More Bush in 04,
RAGE

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

140. And plenty of motive to stop Dean....nt

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

50. Chad, Chad, Chad, Chad, Chad....

:nopity:

Just yesterday you posted a heartfelt goodbye to your 'stop dean' agenda, indicating that you and your friend have decided to take the high road and move on to helping Clark. What you didn't mention at that time was immediately before you closed your stop dean yahoogroup, you announced and linked to your new website dedicated to stopping Dean.

I'm not going to post the link here because I dont think it's needed. However as a "member" of the Stop Dean yahoogroup. I can provide more information if anyone is interested.

Edited to add, "Godspeed."

[sfecap]

53. So...Chad didn't tell the truth?

Wow.

What else is false?

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

54. I did not post that

another member did and the other moderator of the group approved the message. I am no longer associated with any Stop Dean groups. They are divisive and unproductive. I am fully dedicated to my candidate. Funny how this little comment has nothing to do with my original post.

[madfloridian]

60. I read a post from you recently about it, but it was not you?

It said it was you. I misunderstood. Who was it?

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

62. I did not post the message on the yahoo group

join the group and check it out yourself. I neither posted nor approved that message. I am through with all that.

[mzmolly]

73. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. You created a new username to do so.

You were one of two people "allowed" to post on the group in question. You announced the coming of the website, and had the sockpuppet mention it's creation before "taking the false highroad." :idea:

As they say "it doesn't take a rocket scientist....."

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

78. not true

nice theory, but you have no proof, you know that ... go to the Stop Howard Dean Now Yahoo Group. I was invited to join the group a few days ago (I am not a member) and I believe the creater/a user of that Yahoo group posted the message on my Yahoo group

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

110. do you even read my posts?

I said

"nice theory, but you have no proof, you know that ... go to the Stop Howard Dean Now Yahoo Group. I was invited to join the group a few days ago (I am not a member) and I believe the creater/a user of that Yahoo group posted the message on my Yahoo group"

There is a Stop Howard Dean Now Yahoo group ... it is totally a different group from the one I started ... Stop Dean 2004 ... I was invited to join the Stop Howard Dean Now Yahoo Group a few days ago ... that's what I said above ...

Please read my posts

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

127. nothing to gain

looks like I'm not a member of that group anymore either ... you didn't mention that mzmolly ... if i had created a website (my friend was toying with learning how to create one), i would have been proud to claim it at the time ... the fact is i didn't ... bottom line

i have no reason to lie
the dean people here will always hate me
i gain nothing by denying a website i allegedly created ... nothing ... but satisfication that i am telling the truth
i have no reason not to claim the website

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

128. also

check who the moderator/owner is ... it was never me

[mzmolly]

138. I'm not interested in the technicalities of the stop dean now

group. You denied creating a website that you announced was pending on Jan 3rd. You created the stop dean yahoo group, and perhaps were one upped by the stop dean NOW movement? I couldn't care less about the semantics of it all.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

146. im not either

i never created a website
i did not create the second yahoo group
i have since denounced purely stop dean efforts
i have moved on and am devoted to the cause of my candidate

that's the bottom line

[mzmolly]

150. Do explain your announcing the website you never created in post 122

? You know, the same day that the sock puppet account was also created at yahoo to announce the new website.

You are weaving a "tangled" web Chad.

[mzmolly]

131. Do tell about the website you announced on January 3rd!

Oh nevermind I ALREADY KNOW...

[powerpuffgrrl]

129. How do we know that this e-mail address

is RAGE's??

white_guy@...... could be somebody else. Are you sure?

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

132. it's mine

[powerpuffgrrl]

134. So it was you??

That's very disappointing. You claimed you don't have anything to do with this group, but your e-mail address is in the message header of a post announcing the group.

That's very disappointing, considering you started this thread denouncing attacks on other candidates, and you've been proven to be doing the same thing.

I sincerely hope this is not typical of my fellow Clark suppoorters, and I call on all other Clark people to denounce this.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

149. don't be disappointed

i said that i didn't start this group

i got an email to join and i did

a few days ago when i realized i wanted to be more like my candidate and not negative about dean, i left both groups and denounced stop dean efforts ... this is public knowledge

i never created any website

i have no reason to lie about creating it

i have nothing to gain as i am constantly being attacked

these people know everything about me and are using this information to interfere with my private life

i will no longer be bullied and am leaving this message board at least until the nominee is chosen

[powerpuffgrrl]

151. You're leaving?

Based on what I've read today, I'm thinking that's not the truth either.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

152. You announced the creation of the website...

in post #122. I am sure your fellow Clark supporters can deduce your honesty.

As for your "leaving" DU... :hi:

[AntiCoup2K4]

174. Bye Chad!

And hello to your new identity (who should be here any minute now) :hi:

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[powerpuffgrrl]

137. As I said up a few posts,

That's disappointing. But you have done a good job exposing someone who doesn't make my candidate look good.

[unfrigginreal]

135. Interesting group isn't it?

Here's part of how they plan to stop Dean:

4) We need to really start pounding Dean on the popular Democratic
blogs like DailyKos, Democratic Underground, etc. I would use Dean's
exact quotes, while also emphasizing the fact that he is unelectable
for all the reasons we know so well (no national security or military
experience -- unless draft dodging counts; governor of a tiny,
insignificant, 97% white, northeastern state; easily pilloried by the
Republican attack machine; etc.);
5) Write letters to the editors of both local and national newspapers
pointing out their biased pro-Dean coverage, and tell them to cut it
out now!!;

[mzmolly]

61. Chad, Chad, Chad, Chad, Chad..

You know that you are a KEY player *1 of 2* on the yahoogroup. You prevented anyone but posting who was not a moderator. ie. you and your friend Marcus. You announced that the website was "coming soon" and when it arrived, you closed the yahoogroup pretending to take the "high road."

You are *exposed* Chad. Except it.

Oh and "Godspeed"

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

65. I didn't even attack Dean

I told a factual account of what happened last night, deliberately not attacking ANY candidate and this is what I get -- 2 untruths, and blatant attacks on me. Do any of you people, who distort things about me, care about representing the truth?

Link on the GW thing: http://www.gwu.edu/ac.html

[mzmolly]

68. I care about "truth" which is why you've been outed.

:nopity:

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

71. where's the proof/links Mzmolly

Where is the link that showed that I posted that message and/or that I created that website? I'm waiting.

[mzmolly]

86. As they say...it doens't take a "rocket scientist" Chad.

:shrug:

Your not suggesting another *slander* to your perilous reputation has occured are you?

Allow me to post a history of events for enquiring minds *as I imagine the yahoogroup is only open to *members*

Here is how it went down....

Clue # 1 - you prevented anyone except for you and Marcus to post to the yahoogroup.


"While we all believe general discssion of these matters is always
good, we do not want people's inboxes to be bogged down by messages.
Therefore only moderators will have the ability to post. If you have
something important the group should know email the moderators and
the post will be made.

Once we get the website up and a blog then discussion will be free,
but we don't want this listsev to get out of control.

Thank you
Marcus"

Clue # 2. You had a website pending on the front page for months.

Clue # 3. You create a sockpuppet *who is a brand new yahoo member* to post this just before leaving the group. :spank:

Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 8:24 pm
Subject: www.XXXOOO.com

"I just put up a website this evening at:

http://www.XOXOX.com *I'm not going to advertise your new website Chad*

It's pretty basic right now, but more functionality will be added later.

Yours in Dean-Stoppin"

Clue # 4. The heartfelt ... goodbye:

Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:36 am
Subject: Good-bye and Godspeed

All,

My friend and I began this Yahoo Group for the good of the
Democratic Party and the United States of America. We still believe
that a Dean candidacy will be bad for our party and our country but
are no longer going to devote our efforts just to stop Howard Dean.
We are currently working in New Hampshire for a candidate and we are
now going to devote ourselves fully to this candidate. We wish the
best of luck to everyone and their respective canididates. We
believe Howard Dean is already on the downturn and that soon this
country will have a President superior to both Dean and Bush.

Good-bye and Godspeed,
RAGE and DAMNLIBERAL :cry:

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

90. nice try

the website we attempted to create was www.stopdean.us ... that website was NEVER created ...
then the user, whose user name you conveinently left out (and I can't get it because I'm not a member of the group anymore), sent out a message ...
any user can send a message but that message but first be approved by the moderators before it is posted ...
we approved the message ...
i told my friend i didnt wanna do the stop dean thing anymore and so i left the yahoo group ...
he agreed and we have ended all efforts ...
I, nor my friend, had anything to do with the website posted by the other user on my former yahoo group ...
research it yourself ... see who the domain name is registered to or whatever ...
check the ip addresses or whatever ...
I am being more than civil in yet another attempt to discredit me

The fact remains: a flyer was produced ... that is a truth verified by the media ... makes your petty little claims no irrelevant

[mzmolly]

91. Nice Try # 2.

"i told my friend i didnt wanna do the stop dean thing anymore and so i left the yahoo group ...
he agreed and we have ended all efforts ...
I, nor my friend, had anything to do with the website posted by the other user on my former yahoo group ...
research it yourself ... see who the domain name is registered to or whatever ...
check the ip addresses or whatever ...
I am being more than civil in yet another attempt to discredit me...

You discredited yourself Chad. The words "I am not a crook" come to mind...

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

94. nice reply

you made no responses ... the flyer exists like I said ... will any of you apologize for making false claims about me

1) you said I was already at school ... that charge has been proven false

2) you said the flyer never existed ... that charge has been proven false

3) you said i created a stop dean website ... that charge is clearly false and there is no proof to back it up because it is completely and utterly false ...


I am for Democrats, may the best man win.

[mzmolly]

99. You've got your DU friends mixed up.

I claim only # 3.

But, I would like proof of the first two. Got any?

"I am for Democrats" :eyes: OK???? curiouser and curiouser.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

104. already provided

1) http://www.gwu.edu/ac.html
2) msnbc
3) where's your proof ... i can't prove a negative? ... why would i buy 2 domain names?

[mzmolly]

113. "Where's your proof?"

Like I said, change your sig line...

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

58. Molly, Molly, Molly

You are as bad as others who distort the truth about me. That is not my website. Do some research, I don't even know the individual (screenname or otherwise) who created it.

[mzmolly]

63. It's Mzmolly, Mzmolly, Mzmolly

You are as transparent as "Marcus" who pretends to have integrity.

You are fooling no one Chad. Your anonymous friend created his yahoo account on 1/3/2004. You and Marcus were the only ones allowed to post to the group you created. LOL You don't think your convincing anyone here do you? ;)

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

69. Mzmolly

The Mods approve messages correct. Certain messages, by other users, up until I left the group were approved. I left the group and I have nothing to do with that website. The website we proposed to create never was created. You KNOW that is true.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

98. why then

does stopdean.us not exist?????????????????????????????????????? that's the site that was bought and advertised to be our site ...... where is it molly??????????????????????????

[mzmolly]

102. Because........................................................

You decided to use another name *in a juvenile attempt to cover your tracks* :think: Just like your attempt to do so by creating the sockpuppet on yahoo. "It's Elementary My Dear Watson."

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

107. hahahaha

nice theory ... a theory without ANY proof ... very sad ... every false claim about me, all started because I do not support Howard Dean, has been proven false

I do not care to research the names, addresses, phone numbers, occupations, photos, etc. of fellow DU members because I have no use for them and I personally don't care ...

Nor do I or would I ever post such information publically

I like that, taken to an extreme, could be considered stalking.

Why do you MZMolly ... especially after tryin to be a so caring with your private messages?

[mzmolly]

119. I wanted your side of the story...

I certainly didn't mean to imply that I *cared* about you... But, I do tend to care about fellow human beings.

I thought surely there must have been a misunderstanding in the situation you refer too? :shrug: I wondered if words were misunderstood, but when you didn't reply to my satisfaction... :shrug:

I feel I know exactly what happened, in case there is a doubt Rage.

[redqueen]

109. Pitiful

RATM has been aboveboard this whole thread.

Nice hijack, molly.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

111. thank you for your kind words

seriously, i appreciate the support

[mzmolly]

125. See post #122 before you say who's above board...

read the thread redqueen, and bookmark it for future reference. I don't know that Rage will want to return :shrug:

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillyT]

156. Well, Rage Did Do Some Damage To His Credibility (Look Here)

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=24191

Notice the thread header.

And make sure you go to post #26 from AWD!!!

And read on...

Rage, if you've seen the light, welcome. But once you play these games, and get caught, it's kind of hard to trust ya after that, ya know????

Just today, we have another Clark supporter brandishing a spanking new Dean avatar. His trust level is circling the toilet as we post!

:shrug:

Edited To Clarify Subject line.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. A SECOND ACCOUNT

This one says the flier was from "Dean for America." I would love to see copies of these fliers scanned in.

http://susan.forclark.com/story/2004/1/7/123454/5075

DTH

[Walt Starr]

55. More internet message board accounts

Come off it, post a scan of the flier!

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

57. Expect a copy soon

as I am mailing it to someone else to get it scanned.

[Walt Starr]

59. From what I've read here and on the other account

The flier is spot on any way.

I question Clark as a Democrat because he was running before he fucking registered as a Democrat.

I prefer my Democratic nominees for president to actually BE Democrats.

If the choice for president is Vush or Clark, I'll find somebody whose more of a Democrat that either.

[bicentennial_baby]

67. That's funny

You did'nt question him when you were supporting him for all of a month or so. Which candidate will you be supporting next month Walt?

[Walt Starr]

70. Dean

I tried Clark on for size, he felt too much like Shrubster.

[in_cog_ni_to]

136. SEE?

The excuses are starting already. Pathetic.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

56. It was not from Dean for America

[dsc]

66. Did they contain threats?

I have heard that occasionally Dean supporters have gotten threats.

[Walt Starr]

72. I've heard that too.

I'd like to see how your question is answered because it sounds like there may be more than just the truthful information that thes alleged fliers allegedly had.

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. "Paid For By The Dean Campaign" was on the flyer.

So you can stop trying to defend the actions of the Dean campaign. From now on they will have people in the parking lots, watching for this kind of crap.

[Padraig18]

76. Prove it!

Link? Photo?

[Renew Deal]

80. It's coming

have no fear.

[in_cog_ni_to]

81. I JUST SAID!

It was posted on the Clark blog. If you want PROOF... Go over there and find it yourself.

[Renew Deal]

79. In fairness

Dean's propoganda says: Paid for by Dean for America

[in_cog_ni_to]

83. I'll go find the EXACT wording. n/t

[mouse7]

95. Exactly... there is no "The Dean Campaign"

The identifier must include the exact name of the organization who paid for the flier exactly as listed in FEC filings.

Some freeper put "The Dean Campaign" to stir up a shit storm.

Looks like they succeeded.

[in_cog_ni_to]

101. Here's what I read on the blog.

the flyers had the official Dean campaign stamp of "paid and approved by Howard Dean for Pres"


THAT is the sentence I read on the blog. Since it's been reported by MSNBC, I hope they show it.

[mouse7]

106. *SMACK* There is no "Howard Dean for Pres" either

If it doesn't say Dean for America, it IS NOT from the Dean campaign.

[in_cog_ni_to]

141. SMACK...it was a "paraphrase."

The Dean campaign is guilty as hell. I can't WAIT to hear 3 days of excuses like you all did with the flier where he LIED about Kucinich.

[Hep]

169. SMACK Kucinich flyer didn't say paid for by DFA either

Way to judge someone guilty without proof. But then, I expect no more from some of the Dean opponents.

[mouse7]

176. Even Gomer knows you don't paraphrase inside quotes

Sorry, you already reported it. Doubling back on your report makes your report "suspect."

[mouse7]

93. If that was on the flier, then it was freepers

Only an idiot freeper would screw up the identifier tag that blatently.

[TLM]

165. If it said "Paid For By The Dean Campaign" it was a fake...

Dean's campaign documents have "Paid for by DeanforAmerica" printed on them, not "Paid For By The Dean Campaign."


Sounds to me like desperation from some Clark supporters trying to cook up some garbage to attack Dean over... who were too damn stupid to even get the names right.

[Hep]

167. If it said that, not only is it fake, it's from someone who is definitely

NOT pro-Dean. There are rules that few outside of the Dean campaign know about, at least in my experience. No Dean supporter would ever put that on a flyer.

[in_cog_ni_to]

75. "Paid For By The Dean Campaign" was on the flyer.

So you can stop trying to defend the actions of the Dean campaign. From now on they will have people in the parking lots, watching for this kind of crap.

This info was posted on the Clark blog.

[mouse7]

103. *SMACK* There is no "The Dean Campaign"

Official materials from Howard dean's campaign is tagged, "Paid for by Dean for America"

[LTR]

121. "The Dean campaign"?

If it were a Dean stunt, it would say "Dean For America".

It sounds like an amateur freeper job to me. Or a Rove one designed to look amateruish.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

77. Did they stalk you?

I've heard non Dean supporters have been stalked and their lives terrorized via the net.

[Hawkeye-X]

84. Hey RATM

Did you check in with Lindsay Fincher?

Hawkeye-X

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

85. edit: not important

[sfecap]

97. I've heard...

..that Dean supporters have received death threats. Do you know anything about that?

[AntiCoup2K4]

105. Stalked and terrorized?

You mean like "you'll taste your own blood right before you die?"

Would that be stalking or terrorizing?

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

82. Continue here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=76385

[Hawkeye-X]

88. Nope. It's a dupe.

It'll be locked shortly.

[Renew Deal]

87. This is now a DU Exclusive

Congrats Rage!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=76385&mesg_id=76385

[LTR]

115. error

nm

[Cheswick2.0]

100. ?

What exactly did the flyer say? Can you scan one and post it here?

[LTR]

116. Everyone, please

I said it before, and I'll say it again.

It's very likely a Republican prank. Designed to get us Dems fighting against each other. Gotta hand it to them - it worked.

This thread makes me sick. I'm a Clark supporter, and reading through this I've seen nasty accusations, printing of personal information to smear other DUers, and just petty bullshit.

I alerted on this thread because of this. I have also tried to take the high road in GD2004, with no nonsense attacks (i.e. printing outdated, beaten-to-death articles, and not calling other candidates "DINOs", "Neocons" and "Republicans".

I wish some of you would pull your self-righteous heads out of your asses and get to the real thing - BEAT BUSH IN 2004!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

144. Right, someone ELSE did it.

Don't you ever get tired of making excuses for Dean and these supporters?

[LTR]

147. I'm a Clark supporter. (nm)

[Zomby Woof]

117. smells like Dean spirit!

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

130. who's the stalker?

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LTR]

142. Will you please, please, please

take this schoolyard bullshit to Freak Republic???

This is getting pretty old.

[janx]

154. This whole thread is schoolyard bullshit, actually.

Just like the other threads on this topic--all built on gossip and hearsay.

This place is really going downhill.

See ya after the primaries.

[mzmolly]

161. Sorry for my part Janx...

I let my anger get the best of me.

~Peace

[AntiCoup2K4]

172. I would also wager that GWB would love it.

[Cheswick2.0]

145. I don't know

What are we talking about? Is someone at GWU being stalked?

This whole conversation is confusing as hell.

[powerpuffgrrl]

148. I'm getting the feeling

that projection is being used.

Someone is claiming to be the victim a little too much and denying things that they are clearly responsible for.

When one provides links and posts and the other person says "that's not me, someone else used my account", that sounds a little too convienent.

As a firm Clark supporter, I denouce these tactics and this dodging and weaving.

[CreamyGoodness]

157. I smell a Clark campaign hoax

I find it terribly convenient that nobody, not even the Clark campaign blog, can be bothered to post a simple scan of they flyer in question. This looks like something the Clark campaign has cooked up to try and get some free publicity. If true, I expect it will backfire on them horribly. The Dean campaign can easily verify whether it commissioned any such flyers or not (assuming an actual flyer even exists, which I seriously doubt at this point).

[powerpuffgrrl]

160. I agree

Dean has a 21% lead in NH. Clark is clinging to 2nd place. Dean has NO reason to do this.

This stunt would benefit Clark more than Dean, so you have to wonder who is really responsible.

Then you add in the factor of the shady nature of the source of this story, and you can make a connection.

A Stop Dean person has clearly lived up to his webpage's mission statement, and it's disgusting.

Again, as a Clark supporter, I denounce this crap.

[maddezmom]

173. the flyer was discussed and shown on Inside Politcs

and Judy is no fan of Clark's

[Hep]

158. Dean's campaign is one of a kind

but does allow for such shady tactics. I for one will publicly decry this tactic as stupid an non productive.

But then, when I see the lies being spewed about Dean on Gephardt websites and Kucinich websites and Kerry websites, I honestly don't feel that bad about it. I would guarantee that no dean supporter in my town would get away with such a thing.

[TexasSissy]

162. And that's not all.

All of sudden, today and yesterday, the Net has been flooded with negative articles about Clark on neo-Dean sites (they're called one thing or another: Progressive This, Progress That, Another Voice this, A Liberal Voice That. All pro-Dean sites for attack purposes.)

Isn't it always the case that those who can't take the heat sure do their best to give it?

It will not have any effect, however, IMO. When people get to know Clark, they can see he's the best candidate for the job and the "one most likely to succeed" in a general election.

Go, Wes!

[Democrats unite]

164. If the Dean campaign were truly running a clean campaign

This would be a non issue. But it saddens me that is not the case, and in every crime scene there is bound to be a prime suspect.

[VolcanoJen]

166. CNN's Inside Politics just showed the flyer (with my transcript)

This report concerned the latest New Hampshire poll, showing Clark's move to four points above Kerry.

At the end of the report, the reporter was holding the anti-Clark flyer in his hand, standing outside a Clark event, where he said Dean supporters handed out the flyers.

Transcript by me (with help from Tivo):

"Howard Dean, campaigning in Iowa, was asked if he was concerned about the movement in Clark's campaign he said, 'no.' But here in New Hampshire, some of his supporters are clearly concerned. Outside the Clark event, they were handing out anti-Clark flyers to people attending. One aide of Clark's said 'He's used to taking real bullets. He should be able to handle verbal attacks.' Dan Lothian, CNN, Petersburg, New Hampshire."

This is in no way an indictment that the flyer came from the Dean campaign itself, but it's nonetheless troubling.

[meow mix]

170. i just saw it on CNN

they are reporting this exact story.
dean campaign is flooding NH with anti-clark smear flyers. figures...

[Leilani]

178. I just saw it too

on CNN Inside Politics from their New Hampshire reporter!

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

175. Gee CNN

just reported on the anti clark flyers--even showed one of them, being passed out at Clark events in NH by *gasp* Dean supporters.

[Hawkeye-X]

177. The question is -- was it endorsed or approved by Dean for America?

The answer remains unknown....

Hawkeye-X

[maddezmom]

180. the answer is unknown

however the average voter, will hear it was a Dean supporter and not ask if the campaign paid for it. I doubt the campaign paid for it.

[meow mix]

179. uhuh he held it up to the camera

while talking about the dean campaigners handing them out at Clark events.
thats pretty sad...
low-class bully crap.