Clark/Dean will be the ticket. One DUer's near formal endorsement.

[frank frankly]

I have been rooting for Dean since last February. His rhetoric against the war was my rhetoric. He was the first one I heard who said the truth. I like him as a person and I love the way he speaks and what he says. I was so relieved to see him take control of the Primaries and the terms of taking on BushCo (aggressively) by saying things like this election will determine the fate of the free world. I could go on for a long time.

But there is a shift occuring. I now believe that Clark will win the primaries. It will quickly come down to only Clark vs. Dean after N.H. and Clark will sweep the Super Tuesdays, which will effectively end the race.

And this must happen next: Clark will then nominate Dean to be his VP and give him a Cabinet-level position. He must. If both of them are genuine in their understanding of the mortal peril our world is in because of BushCo, they will do this. Dean's supporters and network is so important that they must be included directly. It also includes new voters who, rightfully, are moved by Dean and what he has been saying and how he says it. Because he is a brave man who is telling the truth about our loss of democracy.

After being down South this December and after listening to the chatter among the TV watchers, I can see that Dean will be gutted by the press. It is already in motion. I've heard nasty muttering from the TV sheeple that Dean is a "liar" and "stupid." They will hype the "similarities" between him and Bush in order to avoid Bush's resume once again. The machine's tremendous negative influence will be negated by the new voters and grassroots movement Dean would continue to generate, but the election would be a squeaker because of the media machine and the inevitable October surprise(s). Dean could lose.

Clark could not lose. He is well liked already in the South and that will only grow. His rhetoric is as honest as Dean's. What I've been most impressed with is that he is taking back history and taking back the definition of liberalism. He sounds like a liberal and he refuses to let Clinton's entire legacy be destroyed, he doesn't take shit from the press, and he is obviously brilliant. I wish he didn't have any connections to Axiom and Stephens, but even this From the Wilderness reader will conceed that point. It is unfortunate, much like Kerry's Skull and Bones or, hell, who knows...they all might be 100% tools of the machine. I can only hope they are not.

This I do know: Clark's rhetoric will demolish the Rush/Faux/NBC/CBS/ADCC/NYTimes/WashPost propaganda that has become our political gravity because of his resume and because Dean (in this scenario) will take one for the team. The machine is geared for Dean now and not only will Clark's credentials make him almost invulnerable, the machine won't have time to adjust. Add all this to the reality that Bush is hated and things are terrible beyond rational comprehension, and subtract the October Surpises and vote stealing, and Clark still can't lose.

But Dean must be on the ticket. He's earned it. We need him. We need them both. I also predict they won't go too negative on each other. If the worst we see is Clark stressing Dean's lack of national security credentials and Dean saying Clark is a new member of the Democratic Party, then that is politicaly nothing. I hope they have an agreement to work together somehow, eventually, because if they are honest in their rhetoric, they will put their country first.

I also hope that the people here at DU follow their lead. I don't read or post much here at the 2004 forum because some of the stuff I've read about my candidates makes me angry. Get ready to drop that shit real fast or get moving on, people, and don't ever use those names around me in person--neither of us would want that. Because if this all happens as I see it right now, nothing but respect and metaphysical admiration should be shown to the brave doctor from Vermont. He is already a historical figure in this, a moment of true history.

Get ready for the big game, DU. This year is going to be a rough ride, let's do nothing to make it worse. We are going to have to exceed every standard we hold as individuals to win this one. DU will be a great force in this.

And we will win because we must.

peace out, y'all,
eric

[webkev]

1. Clark/Dean

other way round is impossible
..and worthless at any rate

[Padraig18]

3. Why would it be 'impossible' or 'worthless'?

I'm curious as to your reasoning.

[frank frankly]

5. that's the kind of shit i hate

show some fucking respect

are you against this war? then HOW CAN YOU TALK SHIT ON DEAN?!!!

[wtmusic]

6. 'impossible' because Clark has ruled it out

woulda been great. Clark just ruled himself out

[webkev]

11. yeah

"impossible"

because Clark declined himself

"worthless"

because nobody votes for the VP in an election
Clark's experience wouldn't be worth anything

[Larkspur]

2. Clark is a doppleganger and a horrible campaigner

He won't sweep Super Tuesday

Dean is a fighter and an experienced campaigner, who has already defeated the Reichwing in an election once. We will need campaign experience in our nominee against Bush & Rove.

Clark has never run for public office before and he has no experience in dealing with the brutal Rove machine. Clark will melt under the Rove assault, just like a Clark bar under a hot light.

[grannylib]

18. I respectfully disagree; I can't see Clark melting under fire from anyone,

and I believe he can withstand Rove or anyone else, in spite of, or maybe even because of, his lack of political campaign experience. He might not play by the rules; he may be honest and call Rove and his cronies for what they are, and be non-PC and that would sure win a lot of folks over: a real outsider taking on the Washington establishment...
Just some random thoughts and my $.02 worth, carry on, Happy Monday!

[MIMStigator]

21. is that why he's tied with Dean national even tho

there are a bunch of other anti Dean candidates?

[retyred]

4. Why would Clark

pick dean when he wins the nomination? There are much better choices than dean that has proven by losing the nod that the people don't want him, why would Clark give the people dean if something happens to Clark as President?

Why would Clark take a chance of alienating those voters he hopes to get because he's not dean by choosing dean?

Besides, wasn't it reported that Clark wants a woman for VP? Unless dean looks good in a dress and heels....wait....I'll bet he does.



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[frank frankly]

7. you make me want to hate Clark

this 2004 Forum is near worthless...

[webkev]

8. why?

Clark did say he wanted a woman to VP didnt he?

[Democrats unite]

12. Why would you want to hate Clark for something someone else said?

Is that wise?

[retyred]

23. I'm sorry if I offended you

but all my reasons for Clark not to pick dean are why I feel Clark shouldn't.

I see nothing to be gained by picking dean, to me it would undermine Clarks agenda by picking someone that would not fight the Clark fight once in office that someone else would, deans ideas while not bad are not Clarks.

dean is to his supporters everything Clark isn't, A president picks a VP that would/should compliment is candidacy, dean won't do this. We see this now with most believing Cheney is running the show, Clark doesn't deserve or need anyone second guessing what he does by assuming dean is somehow orchestrating Clarks policy.

IMHO no nominee should pick a VP from the field of also ran.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

14. Clark will NOT pick a woman

His quote was taken out of context. He was asked if he would consider picking a woman, and he said that we would and named some credible ones. I guarantee that Clark will not pick a woman for the sake of picking a woman. He would lose all the strength among white males that makes his candidacy so viable.

A Clark/Dean ticket is extremely possible. A number of Dean supporters would be very pissed off if Clark, the alleged "establishment" candidate gets the nomination. Clark would pick Dean for unity purposes. This gets even more likely if Nader enters the race.

[9119495]

19. Supporters and money are needed in elections and

Dean has both. Glad to give you a quick lesson. If any Dem thinks they can just ignore the existance of the Dean candidacy should they win the nomination, they will be sadly mistaken. They are going to need the base, ground troops, and grassroots in the general election.

Who is "worthless" now?

[Democrats unite]

9. Very thoughtful and written post, thank you...

I do like Dean on the National level, But I don't believe he can win against Bush. With that said I would like to see him part of the next Clark Administration.

[BeyondGeography]

10. I'm afraid this is too tidy

I agree with each and every premise of your argument, however I expect things will get more negative between these two than you would like.

Dean has run a brilliant race, I admire him as a politician if not as a person. But, so what, we don't have to go to bed with these guys, we just have to come up with someone who will beat Bush and reverse the tide of reactionary Republicanism that makes us all sick to our stomachs.

You are completely on the mark about Dean and the media, and I think Dean as VP would still attract plenty of bad coverage, but this would die down as the focus inevitably turn to the top of the ticket. Dean's ambition, however, needs to be factored in here. I think he will do anything to win, which is the hallmark of any politician aiming to be President. The flipside is, if Clark emerges as his chief rival, Dean will go after him with everything he can find. And Clark, the old soldier who does not take very well to the word "retreat," won't stand for it. The results won't be pretty, I'm afraid.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

16. You are totally right

Things start to get very ugly between Dean and Clark after New Hampshire. We will NOT have a nominee until possibly April.

[Walt Starr]

13. It'll never happen

I don't believe you'll ever see Clark and Dean on the same ticket.

[sandnsea]

15. Clark/Kerry or Kerry/Clark

Dean has simply made too many foreign policy and national security mistakes. He would hinder Clark's greatest strength, it would be a silly choice. I'd say Edwards, but Clark doesn't really need more southern credibility. Kerry is a very strong speaker and has done very well in polls against Bush and in the south and would again. Kerry also gives Clark the domestic and liberal credentials that he needs. A Clark/Kerry ticket would be unstoppable.

[Padraig18]

17. It would also neatly solve Kerry's problem with being on the ticket at all

It's highly unlikely that he'll be on the ticket, unless it's as VP.

[sandnsea]

24. Still won't be Dean n/t

[beachdreamin]

20. Clark/Dean

Well thought out post, I command your thoughtful reality of the situation in the Democratic party. General Clark, clearly should be the Democratic nominee to go up against Bush in November.

Clark, can win in the South, Dean can not, it's that simple.Clark's recent relieve of his Family Tax Reform Plan will go over very well in the South, the average middle class family, fall into his 50,000 ceiling for not paying Federal Taxes.

Clark's military background will play well in states like North Carolina and South Carolina. Both states have several military bases and a large portion of retired military.

The other state that Clark can compete in is Florida. There is a large Senior citizen and military base in Florida and that plays right into Clark's strength.

If Clark can carry 2 southern states, Democrats can win in 04. If Bush sweeps the south then the Democrats will not win.

The problem with Dean is this---He will be trashed by the Republicans and will end up losing the election. The Dean argument is that they have brought in new voters into the system but the problem is, he may attract new voters but he may lose many more Moderate and Conservative Democrats.

Clark is the ONLY Democrat who can take it too Bush in November and he can WIN it.

[BigBigBear]

25. I gotta agree

We need someone who can force Rove to spend money in the South - Dean won't do that. I think Clark can make the South and the West competitive.

I think Dean has energized the northeastern anti-Bush Democrat base. Great, but I have yet to see any indication that will translate to the GE.

I've been expressing doubts about Dean's support amongst swing voters since August. He's done nothing, thus far, to persuade me otherwise.

If he runs on a tax hike, he'll change from being McGovern to being Mondale. Both honorable and genuinely good men, both respected candidates from the Democratic Party, both told the truth.

Both got trampled in the GE.

To me, it comes down to this: do the hardcore Bush-haters (and I count myself amongst them) wish to a) run a candidate who legitimizes and echoes their hatred of this maladministration, or b) win the election. Because, frankly, I'm not sure you can do both.

Like it or not, most of the country doesn't detest Bush - they should, if they were paying attention, but they don't.

[Scott Lee]

22. Clark isn't exactly in the position to be calling terms

Currently he is still running quite a ways behind Dean. Howard Dean has shown an amazing tenacity and resiliency. The guy moofs his words sometimes, but his support has been growing and steady. Nothing seems to really damage him. If this had been any other candidate, I would agree with you. But you see, Howard Dean is not just any other candidate. He's the guy with the stuff to take on Bush-hole.

If you are basing your feelings on convention in the past, remember this; So far, Howard Dean has taken political convention, smashed it under foot, and made it into lumber to build his campaign.

[frank frankly]

26. i hear you, scott

this is just how i see it today

dean's the guy i send money to...