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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) |
Perky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:21 AM Original message |
Sorry but picking Clinton has disaster written all over it.. |
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Lyric (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:23 AM Response to Original message |
1. Somehow I trust Obama's judgement |
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Perky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:27 AM Response to Reply #1 |
2. I think she is a fine pick I just know Cable news will be dissecting every |
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Kolesar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:30 AM Response to Reply #2 |
3. President Clinton could dummy up for eight years and everything will be A-Ok |
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Perky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:41 AM Response to Reply #3 |
7. Yeah ........ok.....sure |
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elleng (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:36 AM Response to Reply #2 |
5. Can't avoid |
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SIMPLYB1980 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:41 AM Response to Reply #2 |
16. They will do that if she stays in the Senate also. |
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AndrewP (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:54 AM Response to Reply #16 |
44. Right on the money |
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tonycinla (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:33 AM Response to Reply #16 |
57. Yes but |
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niceypoo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:24 PM Response to Reply #2 |
72. You watch too much TV |
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laugle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:35 PM Response to Reply #2 |
111. The best thing to do is just turn it off!! n/t |
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Dinger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 07:40 AM Response to Reply #1 |
14. Exactly What I Was Thinking |
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NoSheep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:16 AM Response to Reply #1 |
33. Ditto. |
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loudsue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:20 AM Response to Reply #1 |
34. It's not a matter of Obama's judgement...it's a matter of political blackmail |
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GarbagemanLB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:07 AM Response to Reply #34 |
48. mafia bosses controlling Pelosi and Reid? All DLCers are GOP infiltrators? Can I have some of what |
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loudsue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:15 AM Response to Reply #48 |
54. If you don't understand those statements, you must be new here. |
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karynnj (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:59 PM Response to Reply #54 |
78. What you said is extreme and it is none of the allegations are sourced |
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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:18 PM Response to Reply #34 |
94. "most of the mess on the Dem side can be laid at the feet of the Clintons" |
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breadandwine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:37 PM Response to Reply #1 |
97. Hey. Hillary's a bargain. 3 foreign policies are better than one. |
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political_Dem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:35 AM Response to Original message |
4. The other aspect is whether she will truly follow the President's orders. |
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brianna69 (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:54 AM Response to Reply #4 |
23. She will have to follow the orders |
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fujiyama (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 05:22 AM Response to Reply #23 |
125. If she did that |
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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:19 PM Response to Reply #4 |
95. Hillary is a known Party team player |
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InAbLuEsTaTe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 05:35 AM Response to Reply #4 |
127. I concur. Hillary's NOT a diplomat-she stirs shit up 2 much. Perfect 4 Senate leader though. |
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zeemike (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:37 AM Response to Original message |
6. Disaster maybe, but not for the reason you gave. |
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DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:50 AM Response to Reply #6 |
8. If |
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zeemike (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 02:35 PM Response to Reply #8 |
87. And perhaps he knows that. |
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Donald Ian Rankin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:22 AM Response to Reply #6 |
15. ...the Republicans see Clinton as someone they can work with? |
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zeemike (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 02:37 PM Response to Reply #15 |
88. No thy just used that hate to control him |
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moodforaday (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 04:33 PM Response to Reply #15 |
105. I think you're conflating |
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AtomicKitten (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 11:05 AM Response to Reply #6 |
63. A series of leaks constitutes a rumor. |
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livvy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 07:00 AM Response to Original message |
9. I have to agree. |
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political_Dem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 07:05 AM Response to Reply #9 |
11. No, I truly agree. I've been arguing that Obama needs people who have his best interests at heart. |
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IsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:02 AM Response to Reply #11 |
27. I think he shot himself in the foot before the race even started. I hope I am wrong, but you can |
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Divernan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:11 PM Response to Reply #11 |
115. Re: quid pro quo, is this how Obama got the Clintons' support in the general election? |
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DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 07:01 AM Response to Original message |
10. I Trust Obama's Judgement |
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quickesst (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 07:10 AM Response to Original message |
12. Gee.. |
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Olney Blue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 07:38 AM Response to Original message |
13. Don't agree. The Clintons love this country, and will be excellent for us. |
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Skwmom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:48 AM Response to Reply #13 |
42. Well I don't know how much more "loving" this country can take. |
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paulk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:36 AM Response to Reply #42 |
58. you are absurd |
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Skwmom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 02:51 PM Response to Reply #58 |
92. No, the absurdity is the myth that the Clintons were good for this country. |
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paulk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:26 PM Response to Reply #92 |
110. that's a popular opinion over in freeperland |
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AJH032 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:40 PM Response to Reply #92 |
116. oh yeah, total myth |
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blm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:33 PM Response to Reply #13 |
75. Did they love it in 2004? Or 1993 when they sided with protecting secrecy and privilege of GHWBush |
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Dawgs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:43 AM Response to Original message |
17. Yes, your comments are sorry. |
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davidpdx (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:48 AM Response to Original message |
18. I agree that Hillary Clinton isn't the problem |
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Lyric (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:52 AM Response to Reply #18 |
22. Cheney? |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:55 AM Response to Reply #22 |
25. Deleted message |
Skwmom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:49 AM Response to Original message |
19. I can't imagine the right not having a field day with the "vetting" questionnaire after |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:50 AM Response to Original message |
20. Right about now, I think the Clintons are thinking about their legacy. |
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Donald Ian Rankin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:08 AM Response to Reply #20 |
28. A bit early for that, isn't it? |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:16 AM Response to Reply #28 |
55. Maybe that's the mistake George Bush made. |
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fujiyama (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 05:33 AM Response to Reply #28 |
126. Clinton was the opposite from Bush in the whole "legacy" sense |
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brianna69 (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:52 AM Response to Original message |
21. Let us give it a chance and see how it |
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mtnsnake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:55 AM Response to Original message |
24. If anything Bill is an asset, not a liability. Your just crying because you love to piss & moan |
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laugle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:48 PM Response to Reply #24 |
112. Amen to that! Hate begets hate! |
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old mark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 08:56 AM Response to Original message |
26. She will be the focus for the MSM, take the spotlight off of |
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mtnsnake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:09 AM Response to Reply #26 |
29. "He hates the attention, she loves it" |
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old mark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:15 AM Response to Reply #29 |
32. I really disagree with that - She is a tough, ambitious politician, |
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goclark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:42 PM Response to Reply #26 |
99. yep ~ |
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Demi_Babe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:10 AM Response to Original message |
30. she's a wonderful pick and I trust Obama |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:14 AM Response to Original message |
31. So you are smarter than Obama and his team of advisers? |
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Laura PourMeADrink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:21 AM Response to Original message |
35. I can't believe you haven't figured out that you can not post a dissenting |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:36 AM Response to Reply #35 |
36. There is difference between discussing "pros & cons" and "THIS IS NEVER GOING TO WORK". |
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Laura PourMeADrink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:40 AM Response to Reply #36 |
37. Well sure there's hyperbole. Guilty myself. That's just the way |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 11:10 AM Response to Reply #37 |
65. It just sounds too negative and fatalistic. |
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tomp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:47 AM Response to Reply #36 |
41. obama has extended an open invitation to powell... |
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TheKentuckian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:01 AM Response to Reply #41 |
46. Are you saying that Obama is the third Bush term? |
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MessiahRp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:12 AM Response to Reply #41 |
52. I think and I believe our founding fathers (esp. Jefferson) would agree that it is our DUTY |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:41 AM Response to Reply #41 |
62. People here have let Obama skate on the Powell linkage. nt |
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Barack_America (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:02 AM Response to Reply #36 |
47. Isn't that what the OP did? |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 11:07 AM Response to Reply #47 |
64. I was okay with it until the "THIS IS NEVER GOING TO WORK"... |
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Cosmic Charlie (684 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:33 PM Response to Reply #36 |
74. when all you have are massive cons, then it is appropriate to say "this is never going to work" |
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HughMoran (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 02:40 PM Response to Reply #35 |
91. Attack our new President's judgment and people who support his decision are "rancorous?" |
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treestar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 03:42 AM Response to Reply #35 |
120. You can't post anything here without someone to disagree |
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alwysdrunk (908 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:40 AM Response to Original message |
38. I agree. This will hurt Obama's presidency in the end. |
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Maven (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:41 AM Response to Original message |
39. AGHGHGH! |
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ruggerson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:09 AM Response to Reply #39 |
50. It's useless |
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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:40 AM Response to Reply #50 |
61. Worse than? |
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No Elephants (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:44 AM Response to Original message |
40. So, you don't think they work as a team? Good cop, bad cop? Interesting that |
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Ganja Ninja (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:53 AM Response to Original message |
43. I think you're going to see a never ending press speculation about |
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GreenEyedLefty (708 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 09:57 AM Response to Original message |
45. When have we ever had a situation where the SoS is the spouse of a former president? |
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nichomachus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:08 AM Response to Original message |
49. I think HIllary is a wonderful, smart person and will be a great SoS |
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TriMetFan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:09 AM Response to Original message |
51. Chicken little says: |
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OmahaBlueDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:14 AM Response to Original message |
53. While I think Disaster is an overstatement, I think she'd make a better contribution in the Senate |
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high density (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:19 AM Response to Original message |
56. This is not a lifetime appointment |
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Thrill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:37 AM Response to Original message |
59. I doubt either Hillary or Bill crosses the line. Considering he could fire her at anytime |
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WI_DEM (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 10:37 AM Response to Original message |
60. Take a deep breath. It will be fine. |
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cwydro (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 11:19 AM Response to Original message |
66. Nah. |
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MyNameGoesHere (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 11:44 AM Response to Original message |
67. Yes it would be horroble to have dissenting opinions. I mean we do want |
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budkin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 11:50 AM Response to Original message |
68. I disagree... I think it's a great choice. |
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SeaLyons (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 11:51 AM Response to Original message |
69. Couldn't disagree more... |
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MasonJar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:14 PM Response to Original message |
70. I'm sorry too that you chose to post this nonsense!!! Bill is bending over |
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Upton (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:16 PM Response to Original message |
71. Couldn't agree more.. |
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okieinpain (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:27 PM Response to Original message |
73. actually I think he's going to follow her cue on a lot of things, or |
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HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:47 PM Response to Original message |
76. "THIS IS NEVER GOING TO WORK." Exactly. |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:01 PM Response to Reply #76 |
80. Which is exactly why Hillary and Bill are going to play nice. |
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HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:13 PM Response to Reply #80 |
85. Ah, but there's still foriegn policy to deal with. |
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sarcasmo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 12:47 PM Response to Original message |
77. It's called Baggage, Kick. |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:00 PM Response to Original message |
79. Somehow, I think Obama understands the Clintons better than you do. nt |
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grantcart (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:07 PM Response to Original message |
81. You do realize that this is really a highly critical attack on President Elect Obama |
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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:16 PM Response to Reply #81 |
86. Ironic, isn't it? |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 02:39 PM Response to Reply #81 |
90. Seriously! I'm surprised people are so low brow they can't get this! |
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fujiyama (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 05:45 AM Response to Reply #81 |
128. I was extremely critical of her during the primaries and hated the campaign she ran |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:08 PM Response to Original message |
82. So how do you deal with this then? She will be SoS. Are you going to be pissed until he fires her? |
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Better Believe It (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:44 PM Response to Reply #82 |
100. Hillary Playing Second Fiddle And Taking Orders? |
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rosesaylavee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:10 PM Response to Original message |
83. Has this been announced somewhere and I missed it this morning while at work? |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 01:12 PM Response to Reply #83 |
84. Not official... yet |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 02:37 PM Response to Original message |
89. Hiding all Clinton and Obama hate threads today... |
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GalleryGod (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:17 PM Response to Original message |
93. Bobby [as in RFK ]would love the pick. |
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Better Believe It (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:20 PM Response to Original message |
96. If Anything Disaster Is An Understatement |
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BootinUp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:39 PM Response to Original message |
98. I will pester you to admit how wrong you were |
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Better Believe It (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:48 PM Response to Reply #98 |
101. I Hope I'm Dead Wrong And That You're Right On This |
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BootinUp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:50 PM Response to Reply #101 |
102. Its just such a gross mischaracterization |
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Better Believe It (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 04:47 PM Response to Reply #102 |
107. She Voted For It! 23 Senators Voted Against Giving Bush The Go Ahead |
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BootinUp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 04:55 PM Response to Reply #107 |
109. it was not a declaration of war. |
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Perky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 03:52 PM Response to Reply #98 |
103. Go ahead and bookmark me. |
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cynatnite (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 04:08 PM Response to Original message |
104. Bill will burp the alphabet and make farting noises during international negotiations...I agree n/t |
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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 04:34 PM Response to Reply #104 |
106. In how many threads do you have to post this inane comment? |
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Terran (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 04:53 PM Response to Reply #104 |
108. Yes, we see you thought up something funny. |
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ecstatic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 06:58 PM Response to Original message |
113. Hopefully they will muzzle him better than they did in the primaries |
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Lumpsum (611 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-21-08 07:03 PM Response to Original message |
114. As Ken Silverstein put it |
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Maru Kitteh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 12:19 AM Response to Original message |
117. Your degree in Clenis Mythology and interpretive Elephantism is nearly complete. |
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tandem5 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 02:16 AM Response to Original message |
118. A "sorry but" never looks good on any topic header |
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Undercurrent (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 02:37 AM Response to Original message |
119. . |
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cooolandrew (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 04:29 AM Response to Original message |
121. Can we talk our side up for a change, Barack hasn't even done anything to say his > |
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cooolandrew (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 04:38 AM Response to Original message |
122. Bill was out campaigning for the Georgia seat. We are all on the same apage now it looks. |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 05:15 AM Response to Original message |
123. Sorry, but this thread has Flamebait written all over it. |
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fujiyama (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 05:17 AM Response to Original message |
124. In a way this might actually keep Bill kind of quiet |
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RBInMaine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 06:09 AM Response to Original message |
129. Picking Hillary was BRILLIANT ! Stop the BS concern trolling ! |
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opihimoimoi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 06:24 AM Response to Original message |
130. The amount of GOOD coming out is worth the RISK...the ODDs look extremely promising |
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mwb970 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 07:05 AM Response to Original message |
131. I'm so tired of this Nervous Nellying from our own side! |
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cboy4 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 07:22 AM Response to Original message |
132. More manure from the usual suspect Hillary-hating crowd. |
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MrSlayer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Nov-22-08 07:32 AM Response to Original message |
133. Pronouncing the game over before it starts is not very wise. |
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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) |
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