****Why I, A Known "Clinton-Hater", Am Not Concerned About Clinton As SOS****

[Zhade]

(Of course, it's not hate, but that's another discussion...)

As DUers know, I'm not a fan of either Clinton - bill for his pro-corporate NAFTAtastic anti-labor sellouts and all those dead Iraqi kids Albright said was "worth the price" and hillary for her proven lies about dodging nonexistent sniper fire at Tuzla, her "opposition" to NAFTA which was anything but and her "role" in securing peace in Northern Ireland.

That said, I like Obama - even when I disagree with him, I think he actually gives a damn about the little guy. And he's not even in office yet, so I feel it premature to criticize actions he hasn't had a chance to take yet. I hold out hope and am willing to gamble* that he will not be swayed by the conservatives he's appointed who have been so wrong for so long on how to run this country. I see it as a chance for him to school them on how to serve the American people and people across the world, rather than trampling on them and their rights.

Hence my lack of concern about him choosing Clinton. Yes, I'd like someone who didn't throw loads of bullshit at him for the very thing she claims to have but doesn't -- actual experience in foreign policy -- but at the same time I see this as him giving her a chance to realize how skilled he will be at this job and how much she can learn from him. He won fair and square, and he's being quite gracious to grant her a spot in his cabinet and a chance to redeem herself for her attacks on his abilities by actively supporting his policies.

Plus, she will have to follow his orders, or she will be out of a job. That fact alone makes me feel better, and it applies to every appointment that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

(*Of course, if these conservatives start leading him away from his promises to us, all bets are off.)

[BlooInBloo]

1. I'd call dodging Serbian sniper fire pretty solid foreign policy experience.

[tabatha]

6. That remark is as silly as Clinton's.

[BlooInBloo]

9. That's not a coincidence, either.

[Zhade]

7. LOL, if only she'd actually done it you'd be right!

NT!

[BlooInBloo]

8. Aw shit - that's right. Sigh.

[FrenchieCat]

2. I share your view on this.....

[H2O Man]

3. Thank you

for posting this.

Nominated.

[NYC_SKP]

4. What has been puzzling to me, and I haven't seen it discussed...

Is why Bill Clinton is now willing to share his donor list, but wasn't earlier when it might have helped her in the primaries or in being more VP-worthy.

If Bill supports her as SOS more than he did as POTUS or VP, I think that's fine, but it is curious...

BTW, I agree with you, I'd prefer Richardson but if Barack wants her who am I to pretend to know better...

[FrenchieCat]

13. Perhaps Bill Clinton played Hardball during the VP deliberations

and ended up with the short end of the stick.

Perhaps he now realizes that he is dealing with a sure winner (Obama)
and so during the SOS dealings, it dawned on him that he has a chance of repairing his legacy
once and for all.

[NYC_SKP]

14. That makes sense...

And, I can see both of them being quite happy with her as SOS, if that's what happens.

Lots of prestige and power with perhaps far less stress and pressure than POTUS.

Not a bad consolation prize if you can't be president.

[H2O Man]

I believe that

Senator Clinton said she only wanted to be vetted if she was going to be the choice for VP. I think that was fair, considering all that was already known about the Clintons. I do not think it was a case of Bill Clinton playing hardball.

[ProSense]

26. I don't think he would have wanted this drama to play out before the election.

Word is that Hillary wasn't considered. That sounds about right, but it also could be that they didn't want to submit to the vetting.

As far as this position, Obama seems to have made transparency a primary objective in vetting his cabinet. This is one of the best things about this episode.

[Tom Rinaldo]

29. Actually I think the process used to get to this point speaks well for all of them

I am very pleased to see this standard of transparency upheld and that Bill Clinton agreed to it. I am pleased that Hillary Clinton is willing to give up some independence to serve in an Administration under the man who she battled for the Presidency in order to help him succeed in office, and America succeed in the world. I am pleased that Barack Obama made this decision himself, coming from a place of strength after just having gotten elected in a landslide. He didn't have to give Hillary Clinton an important role. He wanted to and was confident enough in his own leadership to bring her into his fold.

[Beacool]

53. Perhaps she didn't want to be VP.

And Bill's legacy is just fine, thank you.

[terrya]

5. Deleted

[Zhade]

10. I think we ALL have things we can learn from him. I know I have.

That's how I could post something like this.

[Tom Rinaldo]

16. I think Obama is a person with rare gifts

so I can agree that pretty much anyone can learn things from him. But even he isn't perfect and he can learn from others also.

I very much doubt that Obama appointed Clinton SoS as some kind of act of charitable kindness, to provide a chance for her "to redeem herself". I think too highly of Obama to entertain that thought. He is wise enough to have solid priorities and clear enough about the role of President to act boldly to bring them about. If Obama thought a different individual could better serve America's interests as his Secretary of State, Obama would have chosen a different individual to be his Secretary of State. The stakes are too high, for both America and the world, for him to have made this choice on any grounds other than that. If I were to think otherwise I would have to lower my esteem for Barack Obama. He thinks Hillary Clinton has the potential to be a great Secretary of State (under his direction granted). Had he thought otherwise she would not now be getting this position.

[BlooInBloo]

12. Are you serious?

The idea that intelligent people have nothing to learn - that only an "ignorant dullard" has anything to learn - is anti-intellectualism in its highest form.

Congratulations.

[terrya]

17. I apologize for my post. It was wrong.

I'm sorry. It was incredibly stupid and ignorant myself for posting what I did.

I'll edit it right now.

[Zhade]

20. I don't think it was all that bad. Just a bit reactionary.

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

24. All good. We move on.

[Starry Messenger]

11. Thank you for a great post.

I always appreciate it when people are clear where they stand.

[mtnsnake]

15. It sounds to me like your anything but "not concerned about Clinton as SOS"

If you're not concerned about her as SOS, that's sure a funny way of putting it:

I'm not a fan of either Clinton - bill for his pro-corporate NAFTAtastic anti-labor sellouts....

and hillary for her proven lies about dodging nonexistent sniper fire at Tuzla, her "opposition" to NAFTA which was anything but and her "role" in securing peace in Northern Ireland.

Hence my lack of concern about him choosing Clinton. Yes, I'd like someone who didn't throw loads of bullshit at him for the very thing she claims to have but doesn't -- actual experience in foreign policy

Yeah it sounds like you're not concerned about her being SOS. Sure you're not! :eyes:

[Zhade]

18. Feel free to call me a liar, but I stand by my words.

NT!

[H2O Man]

23. I think that

I've known you for close to five years here on DU. In that time, there have been issues we've agreed on, and some we've disagreed on. But I've never known you to say anything other than what you are honestly thinking.

[Zhade]

27. I try to remain honest, and admit when I'm wrong.

Sadly, that happens less often than I'd like when it comes to things like war.

[mtnsnake]

32. I don't think you're a liar. In fact, I know you're not. My bad on that.

I just interpreted your knocks on the Clintons as you being concerned about them, that's all.

Having said that, and looking back at it, I was wrong in the way that I interpreted what you meant, and I was wrong in the way I worded my reply to your OP. You have my sincere apologies.

[Zhade]

33. Unnecessary, but accepted.

: )

[mtnsnake]

36. thanks

:)

[ProSense]

19. Maybe this is why

Plus, she will have to follow his orders, or she will be out of a job. That fact alone makes me feel better, and it applies to every appointment that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

That plus the long list of concessions Bill had to make puts the Clintons on a leash.

Accepting Obama's decisions doesn't necessarily mean coming around to agreeing with them. A lot of people had to accept his decision about Lieberman, but I still think he's a traitor to the Democratic Party.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Yes the concessions do put the Clintons on a leash sorta speak......

and that may be the wisest move.

[ErinBerin84]

21. I don't find those things THAT contradictory actually...

The implication that Clinton had tons of foreign policy experience compared to Obama bothered me during the primary (and still bothers me, because the SOS nomination sort of legitimizes that notion), but I still think she has potential to do well as SOS, and I think it's great that they will have the opportunity to show that they can work harmoniously together. She was not my first choice for the position, but I support Obama's judgement and wish everyone the best.

[me b zola]

25. Yes.

Recommended.

[vanderBeth]

28. Recommended

[AJH032]

30. I don't see why anyone would be concerned

The Clintons are well-liked abroad, and that's primarily what we need in a Secretary of State. I'd be concerned if someone like George W. Bush were Secretary of State.

[Zhade]

35. Don't give me nightmares!

:P

[AJH032]

37. LOL

scary thought, I know! :hi:

[smoogatz]

31. Hillary's nomination has a lot more to do with bringing the Clinton

donors on board than with her alleged foreign policy expertise. I think Obama felt it was a political necessity to bring her into the fold (keep your enemies closer, etc.), partly to defuse her rival healthcare plan and partly because as Sos (and here's the real beauty part) she'll be out of the country a lot. Like, really a LOT, I'm guessing.

[Zhade]

34. Very interesting analysis!

NT!

[mtnsnake]

38. I don't think he's doing it to get her out of the country a lot

and far away from home at times, although I think Bill might like that notion! :evilgrin:

[polichick]

39. And if she screws up, she'll be out of the admin. AND out of the Senate...

She's got incentive to use her talents well.

[Zhade]

40. She's going to want to do a good job for Obama, and he's giving her the chance.

This is the whole "working together" thing he talks about.

Now it's up to us to make sure he pursues the right kind of policies!

[polichick]

41. I think Obama's policies will be good - hopefully people working for him...

...will remember that they're supposed to be furthering Obama's/the people's agenda and not their own.

I really don't get why he thinks Hillary Clinton can be trusted to do this, but it'll be interesting to watch things unfold.

[Zhade]

45. I really get the sense that he believes in people seeing the light and improving themselves.

I hope that sense is correct. I'm willing to wait and see.

[polichick]

61. Yeah, he kind of raises the bar...

There's a great quote about treating people as if they were who they could be (wish I could recall the exact words).

Obama's Aloha Spirit definitely had an impact on how we all behaved working the campaign for him, so I won't be surprised if his cabinet works out fine too.

[Beacool]

55. I doubt that he would ever fire her.

As much as some of you would like to think so. Like Powell, she's one of the few people who for all intents and purposes is "unfireable". Though she may resign like Powell did.

[polichick]

60. High-level firings often involve asking for a resignation.

[Beacool]

54. Pity, her healthcare plan is far superior.

That's why she had the endorsements of the AMA and the Nurse's Association.

[Whisp]

42. If Barack thinks Hillary is worthy of SoS

who am I to disagree?

I'll probably grumble a bit, but hey
he's not only smarter and wiser than 40 of me, but of all of DU registrants.

he knows what he's doing
and the Clintons will not be doing it, he will.

they may be some fracases over bruised egos, etc., but in the end, Obama is the bossman and he will do what can be.

[Grateful for Hope]

43. Very excellent thread

Thank you for posting this. I think you are absolutely correct that Hillary (as well as all other cabinet members) will have the incentive to be excellent team players and contribute positively to the well-being of our country because, as you say, they will be "out of job" if they do not live up to expectations.

I also think the considerable expertise of the total cabinet under the leadership of Obama has the potential to really turn this country around in the next four years.

I have much hope for our future, and, this hope began the day that Obama was elected.

[quickesst]

44. You could have....

...simply declared your "hate" for the Clintons, and informed us you are not worried about one in the White House because you have faith in Obama. You didn't have to fuck it all up by giving us the inane reasoning behind it. I'll sleep better tonight knowing a Clinton in the White House will not signal the end of the world. Thanks.
quickesst

[Zhade]

46. Sorry you dislike the analysis, but I felt it needed to be said.

NT!

[Metric System]

47. I'm just going to bite my tongue for the sake of harmony.

[Zhade]

48. Don't bite too hard, you'll need that tongue to praise Obama's successes.

If all goes well, some of them will even come about with Clinton's help.

[Metric System]

49. I look forward to Obama's successes! I have few doubts about him.

[Zhade]

50. I think we've just agreed for the first time.

: )

[Metric System]

51. Heh.

[Dark]

57. Yea, this post is more than a little antagonizing.

/Obama suppoter since the primaries.

[Beacool]

52. How she can learn from him??????

More like the other way around. Furthermore, she does not need to be redeemed. He was her opponent, not her kissing cousin. If she had won the nomination, I wouldn't expect Obama to have to be redeemed either.

How presumptuous of you to assume that she needs to be forgiven for anything and needs to be taught by him.

Please.........

And for the record, I didn't want her to be SOS. I would have preferred if she stayed in the senate where she was her own person and had her own power base.

:eyes:

[mtnsnake]

63. No kidding

It's like half the posters around here expect Hillary to apologize for being competent and ambitious. Truly bizarre atomosphere here to the extent that it's amusing, but thank god this place in no way reflects anything close to reality or we'd all be fucked forever!!

[AtomicKitten]

56. Very well said and thanks for posting this.

I'm reasonably certain Obama knows exactly what he is doing. I look forward to his presidency unfolding on 1-20-09.

K&R

Something I just read that is relevant to the discussion:

Obama's Foreign Policy Team Earns High Praise, But Concern About Clintons
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/30/obamas-foreign-policy-tea_n_147200.html

* snip *

The most contentious argument, however, revolved around the role Hillary Clinton and, by extension, her husband, would play in Foggy Bottom. While Lugar said that as a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee he would support her appointment to State, he raised concerns about the former president's financial dealings. Speaking hours after it was reported that Bill Clinton would reveal some 200,000 donors to his presidential library, the Indiana Republican seemed un-impressed.

"I would vote in favor of Senator Clinton knowing what we have here today," said Lugar. "I suspect that I am not alone in suggesting that questions will be raised. And probably legitimate questions."

"What more could Senator Clinton do?" asked host George Stephanopoulos.

"I don't know, frankly," replied Lugar. "I would just suspect that given all of the ties and the influence that he has, the relationships. He is a major player in foreign policy. Mrs. Clinton will be the Secretary of State. They are married, a team."

Both Reed and Lugar, it should be noted, though the former President could serve a constructive even crucial role as a diplomat and mediator to the burgeoning hostilities between Pakistan and India.

Torie Clarke, the former Department of Defense spokesperson, echoed many of the vague concerns that Lugar had previously voiced.

"Her entire life, it's not just what she does and how she performs. What about Bill Clinton and his role? And I look at all the things they've agreed to do. It's one thing to say that on paper, it's a whole other thing to put that into execution."

George Will, the conservative columnist, raised more substantive criticisms of the selection, noting that, beyond her husband, Clinton would have to manage a huge bureaucracy with many different philosophical factions and competing interests.

"She's run two things in her life," Will said, "her campaign, that did not go so well. It was faction ridden, it leaked a lot. And before that, the health care event that they could not even get to a vote in a congress they controlled. Her record as a manager raises caution signs."

Matthew Dowd, the Bush adviser-turned-critic, summed it up best. After listening to the panel bat around the concept of the team of rivals, he remarked that it will be hellish for at least one individual: Obama press secretary Robert Gibbs.

"He's going to have to deal with things every single day," said Dowd, no stranger to the art of spin. "Whether it's the divergent cabinet they have, whether it is the former president Bill Clinton going to give a speech somewhere in Utah and says something, whether it is Secretary of State Clinton who sort of leans in a certain direction and says something. It is going to be a difficult process."

[cooolandrew]

58. Exactly, it's the character of the man that instills my confidence besides he won the >

least he deserves is his own selection of cabinet. Once he is in office and makes a blunder of consequence I will probably feel greater concern. That's not to say folks won't differ from me just my personal persepctive.

[FlaGranny]

59. Hillary was chosen

for 2 reasons - her tenaciousness and her intelligence. You know that woman does not give up easily and when she sets her mind to do something she gives it her all.

[Jennicut]

62. Hillary will be okay as SoS, I just didn't want her as VP

You need to really be loyal to your president to be VP. Gore was very loyal to Clinton and made a great VP for him even though he wanted to run for president after Clinton. Hillary is really ambitious and will always be looking ahead to perhaps 2016 if Obama is still doing well. Biden was a much better choice as he is loyal and has no aspirations beyond being VP because of his age. You need a loyal confidant and adviser in the WH and the VP has no other formal role but to advise you. As SoS that is fine, she can have ambitions but will have a clearly defined role. Maybe she didn't WANT to be VP. Who knows?