K & R this thread if you want an end to hostile relations with Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba.

[Ken Burch]

Barack Obama was elected to bring CHANGE.

In Latin America, the U.S. can ONLY bring change by giving up on the arrogant, old-school right wing attempts to force the other countries to obey us on social and economic issues. All U.S. hostility to the Cuban government, to Hugo Chavez, and to Evo Morales was based solely on the wrongheaded idea that the rich should rule the world and the U.S. rich should rule more than any other rich people.

The only way for a positive future for U.S.-Latin America relations is for the U.S. to accept that the wealth and resources of Latin America are first and foremost for the good of the PEOPLE of Latin America, not the rich.

Let's finally put imperialism in the grave. Let's admit that Latin America has the absolute right to set its own course, and that that right includes the right to put human dignity and human needs before the profits of the few.

It's what Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King would do.

[Radical Activist]

1. damn right.

I have a lot of hope for Evo Morales. He seems like the real deal.

I don't know if its what RFK would have done or not but its the right thing to do.

[orbitalman]

43. Damn Straight

It's been lllong overtime.

[iconocrastic]

149. Human rights will come to Cuba when they have free and fair elections

Yes, the people of Latin America should control their own destiny.

Too bad in Cuba they live in a dictatorship.

[JDPriestly]

150. Best way to get democracy in Cuba is to open up communication

travel and trade. That's what changed Eastern Europe. I was living in Austria at the time and saw the changes up close and personal as they happened.

[unpossibles]

2. I agree. How many of our problems today can be traced back to our

foreign policy of the Cold War, where we took anti-democratic stances (and coup attempts) against any left-leaning country?

We need to realize that just because the population of a nation disagrees with us, doesn't make them inherently "wrong".

[ensho]

3. yes - way past time

nt

[dipsydoodle]

4. First step might be

to outlaw the expression "backyard" in that context.

[Ken Burch]

8. Especially since so many Americans think of backyards

as places to fill with weeds, garbage and dog shit.

[nolabels]

76. My back yard is clean

I throw all of the dog shit in the neighbors back yard :D

[Ken Burch]

93. You're my hero.

n/t.

[nolabels]

130. Kicking threads is sometimes hard for me i must confess

But ever since our ole rottweiler kicked over i am finding relations with next door much better and having much more time on my hands :shrug:

[vanderBeth]

9. I hate that shit.

You're right. First step.

[Sebastian Doyle]

5. The hostility towards Cuba was all directly based on a personal grudge from Prescott Bush

The Bush Crime Family invested a lot of their Nazi blood money into Cuban sugar plantations, which did well under the Batista dictatorship, and they lost a lot of money when Castro took over.

Granted, Cuba arguably did present a threat to the US for a brief period of time, but JFK took care of that. Chavez was NEVER a threat to this country, and I doubt 99% of Americans even know who Morales is. The Bush Crime Family wants Venezuelan oil, otherwise they wouldn't even acknowledge that the country exists.

I hate to see Obama buy into that propagands. Or the Iran bullshit, for that matter.

[Sebass1271]

6. Well

I agree with your post partly, we should let Latin America have its absolute right to govern when Democratic elections are held as it is in the case of Bolivia and Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was elected by the people of Venezuela because they went out to vote for him, yes, the guy is truly a crazy monger that I don’t agree with his policies so far. Venezuela has a 30% unemployment rate and crime has risen drastically. Chavez do want to do some crazy shit, such as amend the constitution so he can run again. Cuba is another subject. I want Cuban policies to be different. With Obama as president, I am hoping as a Latin American, that he makes drastic changes to the Embargo WITH THE RELEASING OF POLITICAL PRISONERS.

Let’s all NOT forget that Cuba has been under a dictatorship for 50 years and has not HELD FREE DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS. People who revel against the government are put in jail without due process.

What will we do if Bush would have done something like this to us? Actually, his done it and we screamed and have been screaming to this day.

Cuba must be free from oppression. I only hope President Elect Obama DOES something about the Cuban people and their suffering.

[Every Man A King]

10. So we shouldn't trade with any countries

That are not democracies? Or just this one?

[Sebass1271]

16. we are already trading with Cuba!.. this is not my

point of discussion or interest in my comments. The Cuban people need (not the goverment) THE PEOPLE have been suffering for 50 years, we need new polical ideas and vision. and my hope is that Obama recognizes the people of cuba. The republican party has been playing with this and have not done anything to help the Cuban people, he has only taken baby steps and has tap danced with the Embargo for political benefits that has only benefited the right wing cubans of Miami and not the Cubans from the Island.

[Crunchy Frog]

117. I suppose they weren't suffering under Batista?

:shrug:

BTW, Cubans on the island don't vote in US elections. Cubans in Miami do.

[Lyric]

123. Trading one kind of suffering for another is no way to live.

It is not a 2-option choice between Batista and Castro. That is a false dilemma. There are other options, other means of governing. Why should we not want for Cuba what we want for ourselves--an open, accountable government in which the people can fully participate, and do not need to fear dissenting from or protesting against, no matter what their political views?

As for Chavez--I am simply sick at heart at the people who will defend http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/10/09/hugo-ch-vez-versus-human-rights">THIS kind of thuggish behavior to the marrow of their bones because Chavez is supposedly a Leftist. I guess my definition of Leftist isn't quite the same. To me, a Leftist is someone who increases political liberty and encourages dissent and criticism as constructive. I'm sure someone here will try and attack my source, but you know what? There are very few organizations in the world that I trust more than Human Rights Watch--if any. They're like the Red Cross of human rights, and they have no agenda beyond increasing liberty and supporting human rights in every nation of the world. If people refuse to believe THEM, then they're not going to believe ANYONE who criticizes Chavez, period.

[Sebass1271]

136. Thank you.

[Sebass1271]

137. A "leftist" with undemocratic ideas who wants to impose

himself to the people. Iwant DUers to STOP defending this guy that is just the same mirror of Bush.

[RaleighNCDUer]

141. And you are absolutely sure that the CIA has not infiltrated HRW?

HRW is a largely American organization - despite its claims of being international, without American political affiliation. Most its members are Americans. Most of its money comes from American sources. You are surprised that after the US tried to do an Allende on Chavez, that he'd be paranoid about anything that has US connections?

I think it is unlikely that HRW is being used as a front, or that CIA agents have infiltrated its ranks. But it is certainly possible. I know if I ran the CIA, I'd have somebody in there. It certainly wouldn't be the first time they've used a human rights organization for their own purposes.

Chavez is alive today only by taking into consideration the possibilities of what we might do, can do, and have done in the past.

So he bum-rushed a few people to the airport and gave them a 1 way ticket (as if he was going to give them a round trip?) to Brazil. That's the international version of the local cop giving the hitchhiking hippie a ride to the edge of down. It's not right - but it's hardly a serious violation of rights.

If Chavez refuses to step down at the end of his term, I'll reconsider. But until then, he has my minuscule support.

[Marrah_G]

147. Bingo- I gave up on those folks long ago

Everything pro-chavez, even if it is gossip is the gospel truth! Anything anti-chavez no matter how reliable the source is US government propaganda.

They cannot see anything in between...like maybe Chavez is some good and some bad, like most leaders.

These are the same people who would side with the Taliban just because they hate Bush and America.

Usually best ignored.

[Crunchy Frog]

165. Isn't that ultimately up to the Cuban people to sort out for themselves?

I mean, we've done such a fantastic job of saving the Iraqi people from the the evil dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, and we did such a wonderful thing when we saved the Chilean people from that evil Marxist Allende. Who wouldn't want our country coming in and telling them how to make their country free and democratic? And then we've got that wonderful illustration of our own democratic values right there on their island, in the form of Gitmo.

[Sebass1271]

135. exactly my point. they were suffering under batista too

Batista was a dictorship as well..and i do know cubans from the island don't vote in u.s. elections.. that was a dumb comment to make me look dumb?.

[Ken Burch]

156. What you're forgetting, Sebass, is that the US leadership(hopefull this might stop January 20th)

Has always insisted on just wanting to go back to the Batista days. That's what a lot(not all, but a lot)of the older Miami exiles would still insist on. The younger ones have grown some humanity, but the viejos....

If you want Cuba to end up less repressive, you FIRST have to work to make the US repent its arrogance and imperialism in this hemisphere. There's no reason for you to object to that. You know as well as I that, until that happens, our government has no credibility demanding anything from the Cuban government.

And I hope you'd agree with me that it would be a tragedy for Cuba to have a "1989 Eastern Europe" ending. The people there revolted against tyranny, they didn't WANT capitalism back, but the west(led by OUR now-outgoing ruling family)forced it on them.

The need is for democracy without imposed capitalism and without American dominance. You don't have a problem with THAT, do you?

[Ken Burch]

12. I want Cuba to end political oppression as well. But hostile relations have actually PREVENTED that

The problem is, if Cuba had done the things you and I want, the U.S. would gloat and bray and present it(with U.S. media cooperation) as "Cuba surrenders". The U.S. is most likely to achieve the goal of a non-dictatorial Cuban regime if it accepts that Cuba's going to stay socialist and that the worst of the Miami exiles must not be allowed to go back, strut around and steal power back.

The U.S. has to display a LOT of humility towards Cuba before any of us have the moral authority to make sanctimonious speeches about "freedom and democracy".

Nothing the U.S. has ever done in Cuba has been for the good. Before the Revolution, all Americans treated the place as nothing but a resort, speakeasy, colony and whorehouse. Only when our leaders acknowledge that history, apologize it, and agree never to treat Cuba like that again will we be able to discuss "democracy" with any moral legitimacy whatsoever.

People from countries that never had an embargo have the right to push for democracy in Cuba. Not Americans. History morally disqualifies us.

[Sebass1271]

21. so, to your argument, since we morally disqualifed

we can't do anything about it? Obama can't say to Raul Castro, "we will continue our business trade if you release your political prisoners"

How can the greatest country of this planet ignore what is happening to a fellow country 90 miles away from us? Thousands of people have died for speaking up against the goverment and continue to die. Is our apathy greater than what could be the right thing to do?

[Every Man A King]

26. Are you for a trade embargo against all dictatorships?

Yes or No.

[Sebass1271]

36. No.

But I believe if we stop thinking about $$$ first, change would have happened long ago with Cuba. Just strong Diplomatic open relations with Cuba we would have seen something different today. Bill Clinton did not do anything with the Cuban government. I am not opposed to business trade but it has to be done with some requests, including, fair work environments, no child labor and political prisoners be released. I believe the U.S. has really not been forceful with its relations with China as well when it comes to trade. I am SURE that if give them tough sanctions, such as relocating American companies from China for example, the Chinese government will CONSIDER some kind of open relations and trade, same goes for Cuba.

It cant' be everything for THEM and nothing for US. That is one of the major reasons why trade relations have failed during the last 16 years or so (or more) because we have not been tough.

There is an old Saying in Spanish that goes, 'monkeys will dance to anything for money".

If the U.S. tell China, Cuba and South Arabia we will REDUCE trade or any business relations if our interests are not met, you'll see how monkeys will start dancing..

actually, we'll have a party filled with monkey$$$$$$$$$ dancing to OUR TUNE$$$$$

[DRex]

62. The US isn't really in a position

to financially leverage China or Saudi right now.

Last time I looked China owned most of the US, and Bush sold Saudi Arabia the deed to your kids. Talk about taxation without representation, Cuba doesn't look so bad all of a sudden.

Embargo should be dropped, and Obama should talk to Raul, or whoever's really in charge down there these days. Cuba's ripe for some free-market socialism and some American support. Haven't we gotten over our fear of the communist menace yet? Its time to try helping these people.

[roody]

97. The U.S. is ripe for some universal health care, reproductive

freedom, world class sex education, hurricane preparedness, and more. But why should the Cubans help us out after our disgusting behavior?

[Raksha]

113. I agree - recently I've been researching

the urban agricultural system the Cubans developed to save themselves from starvation after the Soviet Union stopped supplying them in the late 1980s. It is truly an inspiration and could serve as a model for other countries, including the U.S.

[deaniac21]

161. I think Fidel's condition has stabilized.

[eridani]

98. You aren't seeing the difference between good Communists and bad Communists here

Good Communists like the Chinese let their political prisoners sew stuffed animals for Mattel and Toys 'R' Us. Bad Communists like the Cubans don't.

[Sebass1271]

139. I am not happy with neither.

good communists like the chinese government according to you let their citizens make stuffed dolls and get paid .50 an hour.. these ppl are overworked, underpaid and to top it off with no chance of speaking out.

[Ken Burch]

27. The way to not ignore it is to admit our complicity in this situation.

If the U.S. had simply accepted the Cuban Revolution from its inception(rather than sending in a racist, fascist raiding party to restore the old order by force and then maintaining a pointless state of war for fifty years)there is no way the Cuban government would have used the methods it did.

The first step towards achieving change there is to admit our wrongs, and apologize for them. The second is to make it clear that we will never again try to overthrow the Cuban government. Then, we can begin to talk about democracy.

We need to treat Cuba with respect and as an equal nation.

I want the dictatorial part of the Cuban reality to end. But that can't be a good thing if the free healthcare and education are taken away and capitalism is restored. If that happens, Cuba will be nothing but a U.S. colony again for the rest of history. We have no right to do that to them. A restored capitalist Cuba would have to be just as repressive as the status quo there.

It can't be a good thing to impose the "Eastern Europe in 1989" model on them. Nothing good came of that for the Eastern Europeans.

The answer is democracy, equality and humility. Not demands for obedience.

If we see our role as MAKING Cuba change, we can't cause anything positive to happen there.

[Sebass1271]

37. Have you been to Cuba?

Why have a Doctorate Degree in Medicine or Education when you CAN'T FIND WORK? When the only employment is provided by the Government and making $200 pesos per month?

Why have FREE Health Care when the Hospitals don't' have even electricity to perform a surgery? When there aren't any beds? When there aren't any needles?

Capitalism is NOT THE EVIL ONE. I see posts like these all the time here at DU. Capitalism is bad, evil, and so forth. Not every ting about Capitalism can't be bad as much as too much COMMUNISM IS GOOD.

[Ken Burch]

40. It can't be an improvement on that situation

To have schools only the wealthy can go to (as is the case or mostly the case in capitalist countries) or new hospitals the poor couldn't afford to go to(and where people have to put up begging jars to cover health care costs like people have to do here in the Land Of The Free).

I want Cuba to stop having dictatorship. But that needs to happen without "market values" being imposed. Eastern Europe benefited only from the establishment of free speech. It gained nothing from the establishment of economic inequality.

Why not accept the fact that democracy, not U.S. style economic ugliness, is what Cuba needs?

People outside of the U.S. have the right to push Cuba on human rights. The U.S. government has to atone for its past treatment of Cuba before it has the right to do so. I hope you'd agree that basically we should apologize for everything we've done to Cuba after, say, 1903. To become a decent nation, to become a truly "pro-democracy" nation, the U.S. must repent of anything even close to imperialism.

As things stand now, U.S. government demands for "elections" in Cuba are about as appropriate as demands that batterers and abusers be admitted to domestic violence shelters in the name of "equality".

The countries that aren't morally tainted have the right to ask Cuba to release political prisoners. And I hope they do so myself, although I accept that I as an American have no right to ask it.

BTW, I'm a democratic socialist, not a "communist".

[NorCalDem]

58. You do know that MANY of the economic crises being faced...

by Cuba are a DIRECT result of our embargo. They have no electricity in part due to an oppressive dictatorship, and in part cause the country is so damn poor because they haven't been able to TRADE freely with all other nations for 50+ years.

This HAS NOTHING to do with capitalism vs. communism, and BOTH systems have their faults. The bottomline however is that Cuba would be MUCH BETTER off these days had we never forced an embargo on them, period, end of discussion.

[Sebass1271]

67. my argument exactly. Both systems have their faults

Capitalism can be as bad as Communism. But we can accuse all the time the evil capitalist society without accepting communism and socialism is just as bad.

[Raksha]

118. Socialism is NOT "just as bad."

We could do with a little socialism in the U.S. A single-payer health care system, for example. The ONLY coherent argument I've ever heard against it is that it's "not the American way," which isn't a coherent argument at all. The reason the Soviet Union was so evil was NOT because of it's economic system, but because it was an undemocratic, top-down totalitarian society. They can be either communist or capitalist, and there isn't a dime's worth of difference.

[NoSheep]

82. Do you know WHY? Because we wouldn't trade with them. We shut them out.

Castro came to the US looking for an ally and we totally dissed him. The CIA dosed him with LSD and then videotaped him and put it on television to make him look like a fool. Have you READ anything about Cuba? Gee.

[Captain Hilts]

99. Correct. Castro ran Cuba into the ground. And in the mid-80s he hosted a conference...

of Latin Am. leaders at which the Cuban economy was held up as a model for all the others.

six years later, Cuba's sugar daddy dies and suddenly it's ALL the US's fault!

I do support ending the embargo though.

[ExPatLeftist]

"Greatest country of this planet (sic)"

Why TF do people feel the need to compare entire nations and then go so far as to state a personal judgment about what country is "best" as if it were fact?

IMO this is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the big problem of the US.

Amerocentrism does not help us one whit in dealing with other nations, and the need to compare countries and claim who is "best" is a largely US phenomenon, from my experience.

This is jingoistic rhetoric which has been accepted as fact and is now being parroted all over the place. It does not help, and it is not true - there is no "greatest" nation. As soon as most Americans realize this and stop allowing this to be stated as a given and offhanded remark, then the USA can perhaps begin to engage in true diplomacy on the level with other nations.

PS Boycotting the Cuban government for holding political prisoners is an idea... It is, however, extremely ironic given the other prison for political prisoners run on that same island - by Uncle Sam. So when should the US start boycotting... the US???

[EFerrari]

45. I hope Obama does something about the citizens of Cook County

and about our political prisoners in Gitmo and in black op sites and their suffering before he tries to impose imperfect American practices on other nations.

[Sebass1271]

46. AGREE..

not negating we need JOBS NOW and a better economy before he can actually focus on international relations...

[EFerrari]

49. There is an ongoing investigation of torture in Cook County, iirc,

by the police. We have our political prisoners here, as well, and they are not Islamic terrorists but American citizens.

[Sebass1271]

WELL, i am sure then, YOU MUST CARE, as much as I DO

FOR them as for the rest of them

[Sebass1271]

55. WELL, i am sure then, YOU MUST CARE, as much as I DO

FOR them as for the rest of them

[StClone]

68. What has Chavez done that is crazy?

He blows a loud horn to make sure he got the World's ear in case the CIA is trying to blow him away again.

[roody]

96. Your imperialism is showing.

"we should LET Latin America have its absolute right to govern when..." This is similar to the men letting the women vote, the whites letting the blacks vote. Okay, your highness.

[RaleighNCDUer]

140. You know, we've been trying to do a Chile on Chavez for years,

which could help explain a lot of the unrest and unemployment as we destabilize his nation.

Democracy is very strong in Venezuela - as is evidenced that when Chavez requested a referendum on changing the constitution to allow him to run again, that referendum was defeated by Venezuelan voters. There is nothing undemocratic about asking the voters to overturn term limits. Until the 40s, WE had no term limits on the presidency - just a two term tradition - and we still have no term limits for most our other political offices.

If, when his current term expires, Chavez then refuses to leave office, then I will call him a dictator. Not before.

[justinaforjustice]

148. It Is The U.S. That Needs Relief From Its Suffering

Well wrote: "Cuba must be free from oppression. I only hope President Elect Obama DOES something about the Cuban people and their suffering."

This is exactly the kind of thinking that has made the U.S. so unpopular in Latin America. If the Cuban people were unhappy with their government, they would throw out the Castro government, just as they through out the Batista government in 1959.
The suffering of the Cuban people has been largely the result of the U.S. embargo and trade sanctions, instituted no doubt under the guise of "relieving the suffering of the Cuban people".

AS to the comments about the Venezuelan government of Hugo Chavez. Chavez has won 11 of the past 12 elections since he was elected in 1998. His party just won 17 out of 22 State governor positions and 364 mayoralty races. His popularity is around 65%. Under his government, literacy,health care and electoral transparency has flourished, as has the economy, which has grown at a rate far higher than other Latin American countries and far higher than the U.S. economy.

Hugo Chavez is not crazy and he is not certainly not a dictator. I am living in Venezuela and see his actions on a daily basis.

No, it is time the U.S. left the Latin American countries to freely choose their own governments. I only hope President Elect Obama does something about the American people and their suffering. We Americans have suffered enormously under the Bush administration, and our country is in much worse shape than either Cuba or Venezuela.

[Raineyb]

7. K&R

There's no reason for it at all.

Regards

[me b zola]

11. IMO, the hostile relations will cease when

US foreign policy no longer considers plundering those nations national resources as in the "US/American interest".

I truly hope that President Obama makes this change.

[Solon]

13. Not going to happen, where would the United States be without its (manufactured) enemies? n/t

[Ken Burch]

14. Let's see...we'd maybe be right here, actually dealing with our OWN problems

And not causing any for other people?

(Just a crazy thought...)

[Solon]

17. The policy hasn't changed in 50+ years, and I doubt its going to change now...

of course, Obama could surprise me for once, but then again, he's more or less staying the course I predicted so far, but I'm also far to cynical to trust anyone in government at the moment.

[Sebass1271]

19. With Cuban government and relations, he has stayed

the course. Unfortunately.

[Solon]

20. Well, he hasn't even been sworn in yet, so he could still hold a surprise up his sleeve...

I wouldn't bet on it, but there is still, uhm, hope.

[Sebass1271]

22. hope.... i won't give it up.. It's Obama we are talking about

he could indeed.. surprise us

[JNelson6563]

15. K&R baby!

:kick:

[Upton]

18. Of course

[Schema Thing]

23. kick

[leftstreet]

24. K&R

[grantcart]

25. and Iran and North Korean

[Ken Burch]

29. Not full normalization with those so much.

But in those cases, we do have to get out of confrontation mode.

One thing we could do as regards North Korean would be to apologize for allowing the fascist South Korean army to stage a massacre of 100,000 leftists in 1951.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/05/national/main4234885.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4234885


That act, while it doesn't justify everything the North Korean state has done on security(nothing could, of course) probably had a lot to do with the underlying paranoia in the North Korean mindset. We should admit that it was way stupid for the South Koreans to do that and that we had a responsibility to stop it.



As for Iran, repeatedly threatening to blow them off the map has achieved nothing. Why NOT try dialogue? You can't seriously argue that we should stay with the brinksmanship in that situation.

The Truman/JFK/LBJ foreign policy tradition never achieved anything. It certainly never served anyone but those who were wealthy.

[grantcart]

31. Full normalization just like we did with Stalin's Russia and Mao's China

Iran is not even a potential enemy, their young people, a majority of the population, are very pro American.


North Korea - for the same reason Cuba - isolation doesn't work.


Having diplomatic relations simply means that you are opening up direct communications.


We maintained diplomatic relations with Laos all during the Indochina War as we were bombing the hell out of them and they were executing our POWs.


There is no justifiable reason to not have diplomatic relations with any country, especially those that you disagree with, as communication can only bring countries together.

[Ken Burch]

33. Well, now that you've put it that way, I can agree.

I thought you were baiting me from the Ben Wattenberg right. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Crunchy Frog]

167. North Korea's isolation is self imposed. Cuba's is not. n/t

[Every Man A King]

32. Full Normalization is nothing but

being out of "Confrontation Mode". Neocon ideology is dead we can go back to having relations with everyone. Its the way it has always been.

[Crunchy Frog]

166. There are real issues with Iran and North Korea.

The only real "issue" with Cuba is our own petulance.

[KillCapitalism]

28. K&R

Yeah, it's about time we seek friendly relations with them. We should engage in fair trade practices with them that would benefit both sides. We could send raw materials to Cuba to help them upgrade infrastructure, and they could send doctors to treat the uninsured here for example.

[Sunnyshine]

30. K&R!

:applause:

[mvd]

34. K&R

"The only way for a positive future for U.S.-Latin America relations is for the U.S. to accept that the wealth and resources of Latin America are first and foremost for the good of the PEOPLE of Latin America, not the rich." - that is a very good point.

[Peace Patriot]

35. K&R! You are right on, Ken Burch!

Democracy is alive and well in South America. They have one of the best, most honest and aboveboard election systems in the world, in Venezuela, for instance. We should learn from them. (And international election monitors travel to Venezuela to do just that--learn how it's done.) We should be applauding these advances, and offering a hand of friendship and partnership, instead of acting in the interest of our global corporate predators, who oppose democracy here and there.

And it's probable that we don't have any choice. The new leftist leaders of South America have shown amazing solidarity in resisting U.S./corp-fascist interference. They are the avantgarde of democracy and social justice. We are way behind. The question is, where is Obama on these issues? His statements are not progressive. His appointments do not bode well, on Latin American issues. But he's not in office yet, so we shall see. And I put a lot of hope in my perception of him as a learner.

[silverweb]

38. Absolutely!!

:kick:

[harun]

39. I would rec this a thousand times if I could.

[robertpaulsen]

41. K & R!

:kick:

[Ichingcarpenter]

42. Totally agree this kind of petty bullshit has to stop... now Saudi Arabia

Is another question.

I still haven't felt good about them for a long time legitimizing that kindom.

[snake in the grass]

44. Count me in!

[Bette Noir]

47. Putting all dogma aside, we're better off as friends than as enemies.

[OwnedByFerrets]

48. K and R

[DesertFlower]

50. K&R

[Auggie]

51. K & R

It's time to act like grown-ups

[ceile]

52. K&R

[The Traveler]

53. I don't trust Chavez

But that trust is not necessary to have cordial, honorable, businesslike relations with Venezuela. And, who knows, having established such relations Chavez may relax into a better posture.

In any event, I see no reason to fear Latin America. We can do business and prosper together. All that is necessary is the grab certain elites by the scruff of the neck and make them play by the rules of law and simple humann decency.

Trav

[jefferson_dem]

64. Well said.

And I agree.

[L0oniX]

54. K & R ...but it will never happen since corporations own our government.

[WoodyTobiasJr]

56. Cuba is awesome!

I've been there a couple of times. Stayed in Varadero. Absolutely amazing place and the Cuban people are the greatest. Havana is incredibly beautiful! I really hope the US ends it's stupid embargo against Cuba. They don't deserve not getting the essentials they need just because the US is acting like such a petulant child just because ole Fidel has given them the finger for 40+ years.

[nuxvomica]

57. K&R

The current policy is not just wrong, it's unproductive for us. I'm hoping Pres. Obama is as much of a pragmatist as he appears to be.

[Laughing Mirror]

59. yes, I totally agree

This has a better chance of becoming the state of things now that the U.S. empire is on the wane.

[Joanne98]

60. K&R

[PassingFair]

61. K & R

But we have always been at war with Eastasia, right?

[Cleita]

63. Unfortunately, I think the Monroe Doctrine will prevail.

I really hope that Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama do put their heads together and come up with some fresh thinking about Latin America and start treating the democracies there as partners instead of communist threats. Also, I hope that they stop thinking that all of Latin America is there for the USA to exploit for its own selfish interests.

[RaleighNCDUer]

145. The Monroe Doctrine was not a statement that WE had the right

to interfere in the governments of other nations in this hemisphere - it was a statement that the European nations had NO rights to the western hemisphere. Our home-grown imperialists have interpreted it otherwise, but basically it was telling England, France and Spain that if they messed with the Americas, they were messing with us.

[Cleita]

154. Yep, but interpret it as a right to imperialism they did.

I lived in South America in my childhood. My dad worked for an American mining company and I saw how it was interpreted first hand as well and I got pretty well schooled in the diplomacy we extended to those nations as my family hobnobbed with American diplomats a lot as did many exPat Americans.

[Ken Burch]

157. Then we need to push President Obama to issue a Great Clarification

It would be something like this:

"The Monroe Doctrine means that no one, including the United States, has the right to dominate Latin America and the Western Hemisphere. Born of an anticolonialist uprising, we now take our side against all those who oppose colonialism, including the economic colonialism known as globalization, and admit we were wrong in all instances in the past where we used force to impose or re-impose an unjust ruling elite".

That's not so much to ask, is it?

[Cleita]

160. No it isn't and I hope Hillary Clinton sees it that way and that

she can influence Obama to do the right thing.

[Joe Chi Minh]

65. K&R

[sandyj999]

66. Kick

[DUlover2909]

69. But, that would hinder WASP hegemony over the world. Heresy!

:sarcasm:

[proReality]

70. K&R n/t

[valerief]

71. Keeeeeek!

K & R

[zzxo]

72. I disagree

Why do they need the U.S?

[amyrose2712]

73. I wish I could kick anf rec 1000 times! But...

It does not look very promising given the new security team. Especially Eric Holder, attorney for the murderous Chiquita Co. But, one can still hope.

[Agony]

74. kr We can start by closing the School of the Americas, defunding the NED and

stop using the IMF/WB to foist "structural adjustments" off on other peoples economies. I mean.. cuz, jeeeez! we have such a well run economy and financial system ourselves! Right?

F*ck "free" market Reaganomics!!!!

Cheers!
Agony

on edit:
Oh yeah! I forgot... F*ck You Milt0n Fr1edman and all your buddies too!

[Raksha]

114. "F*ck free market Reaganomics" is right...

why keep exporting that IMF crap, when we don't even want it for domestic consumption?

[Imalittleteapot]

75. yep.

[marybourg]

77. Yes.

And I also wanted to see my new star :)

[bread_and_roses]

78. I'll K&R that

if I'm not too late to R, that is. And while I have my doubts about Bobby Kennedy, I think there's no doubt that MLK would agree with it too.

[jwirr]

79. done

[hay rick]

80. K & R

[NoSheep]

81. Amen

[gtar100]

83. Absolutely!!

[Douglas Carpenter]

84. I could think of a number of other states and political entities as well

with whom the U.S. could quite plausibly end its hostile relationship.

But Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba would be the easiest and could be done over night.

Its a luxury of the world's only supper-power that the U.S. gets to chose its enemies and chose the justification for why certain states, para-states and other political entities are to be treated with hostility and others are to be given special consideration. Weaker states and political entities usually have little or no choice in the matter.

I have thought long and hard about how the U.S. will deem certain states, para-states and other political entities recipients of hostility. In the vast majority of cases, I am absolutely convinced that it is quite unnecessary and even contrary in most cases to the long-term political and even commercial interest of the United States.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. I've believed that ever since Reagan's disastrous interventions in

Central America and the Caribbean, a tradition sadly continued by subsequent administrations.

[ima_sinnic]

86. K&R!!!

[fadedrose]

87. K & R

[bagimin]

88. K&R

[Captain Hilts]

89. Brazil, Ecuador and Argentina don't want anything to do with Venezuela, why should we?

[Forkboy]

92. That makes no sense. Why base what we do on how other country's feel about them?

If Brazil, Ecuador and Argentina jumped off a bridge, should we?

Sorry, had to pull out the old mom saying. :)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

133. It makes no sense becuase it's not true. The governments in those countries are very close with

Venezuela. People just like to pull shit out of their rear ends sometimes.

[Ken Burch]

106. Actually Brazil has had fairly friendly relations with Cuba

Lula recently visited Fidel Castro, and has always considered him a mentor.

And, to his credit, Fidel never insisted that the country's he allied himself with in Latin America follow his model, unlike, say, Stalin and Brezhnev, who forced the Warsaw Pact nations to be exactly as repressive, bureaucratic, militarized and stifling as the USSR was.

[Captain Hilts]

132. That is true about Brazil. nt

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

131. What the hell are you talking about? Those are probably 3 of the countries that have

the friendliest relations with Venezuela.

[jeff30997]

90. Canadian-Cuban Relationship

Pierre Elliott Trudeau IMHO was one of the best Prime Minister we ever had.


October 3 2000

Trudeau mourned by Canadians,hailed by Castro as statesman.

"Castro hailed Trudeau, the first NATO leader to visit Cuba, as a "world-class statesman."

When the aging communist leader arrived at the basilica for Tuesday's funeral,crowds shouted "Viva Fidel!" A few moments earlier,former U.S. President Jimmy Carter,who often sparred with Trudeau while both were in power,arrived.

"He was the first person I invited to the White House after I was elected,"Carter said."He gave me some good advice."

Internationally,Trudeau adopted a foreign policy independent of the United States and Britain, which was called the "Third Way."

(Gee! Canada back then was not butt-kissing the U.S ?)

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/10/03/canada.trudeau.02.ap/


Viva Cuba: Fidel Castro and Pierre Trudeau:

http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5eueOLhynoM

If you don't want to watch the whole thing (8 min.33 sec.) then just

go to 6:35.

When I was about 9 years old,Trudeau came to hour small town and I

walked toward him and asked:"Mr Trudeau can I shake your hand?"

And he said of course.That's my mom who told me to try to do that

while believing that I had no chance.Hehehe.I proved her wrong.:)

[Captain Hilts]

91. I believe in ending the Cuban embargo, but Castro didn't ask the USSR to nuke Canada. nt

[jeff30997]

95. ?

I'm not sure I understand.Can you be more specific please?

[Mass]

127. Assuming our claim was right (meaning he asked to nuke the USA and not ask USSR to protect them from

an US invasion), and this is a great stretch already, it was in the middle of the Cold War. Can we forget Cold War mentality for a few minutes and all grow up?

[McCamy Taylor]

94. Dump Saudi Arabia. Make Latin American countries our allies.

[slipslidingaway]

100. K&R n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

101. That, sir, is a splendid idea.

k & r

[bridgit]

102. No one can argue for hostile relations. But it won't stop till Rev. Moon, the Bush family

and several already oppressive oligarchs are persuaded to play nice in the hemisphere as well including Russia and China

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/03/neil-bush-the-rev-moon-paraguay-and-the-us-dept-of-education

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6328452

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2005/nf20051118_8302_db016.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

We can certainly do our part. But as to whether the rest of the players will follow suit remains open ended :(

[Truth2Tell]

103. K&R nt

[debunkthelies]

104. K&R

EOM

[Usrename]

105. Exactly - K&R

[zeos3]

107. K & R

[IndianaGreen]

108. K&R

:kick:

[davidinalameda]

109. Martin Luther King would want to be friends with dictators

like Castro?

interesting though, highly doubtful but still interesting

[Agony]

110. the OP statement is "end hostile" not "be friends", the important difference that is totally LOST

when it comes to moron boy GWB.

[Ken Burch]

152. That's true.

Thanks for the post.

[Ken Burch]

151. Dr. King would want us to negotiate with the Cuban government and come to some sort of

honorable compromise, not continue a hardline policy that hasn't achieved anything. And Dr. King would recognize that not only has that policy not succeeded, it has actually worked to preserve those aspects of the Cuban Revolution it supposedly most wanted to end.

Rigidity doesn't work in the U.S.-Cuban situation. Neither does demands for capitulation. Why stay with what doesn't work?

[ClayZ]

111. K and R

[Raksha]

112. I'm happy to K & R - it's about time,

and long past time!

[Crunchy Frog]

115. K&R.

[davidthegnome]

116. Personally...

I don't trust the powers that be in any Nation. Too much corporate control today no matter where you are. That said - yes, I'd prefer a peaceful, diplomatic relationship with these Countries. So, K and R.

[undergroundpanther]

119. KnR

And they should not be required to be capitalist or be capitalism supportive or have to see anything good in that "free market" bullshit,And they shouldn't be made to let corporations set up shop there or sell shit there, or be permitted to take anything from these places or the peoples to sell anywhere else either,and they don't have to accept our 'products'"culture" or beliefs... to end the hostilities.

[judasdisney]

120. Obama's Bay of Pigs -- the First Crisis

No more support for U.S. "ally" Colombia with its mass graves & Death Squads.

Bolivia, Ecuador & Venezuela have ZERO MASS GRAVES and ZERO DEATH SQUADS.

Watch out for Obama's Bay of Pigs, a false flag "Americans-decapitated-by-so-called-Venezuela-fascists" designed to ally Obama with Uribe and against Chavez.

Alvaro Uribe -- Colombia's Death Squad President -- has mass graves. Chavez doesn't

[Granny M]

121. K & R

I totally agree.

[LatteLibertine]

122. Yes

I'd like to see PE Obama work to resolve the Palestinian plight as well.

I'd agree about ending imperialism.

In addition, I'd like to see us knock ourselves off the oil tit and stay out of the Middle East. Or at least stay out of areas where we are not wanted. I'd like to see a strong focus on diplomacy.

The macho man arrogant we know best attitude needs to go.

[WillyT]

124. K & R !!!

:kick:

[Joe Bacon]

125. Kick!

Can we blow the dust off the Monroe Doctrine and tell the rest of the world to leave Latin America alone (INCLUDING ourselves)!

[nc4bo]

126. Already kicked but I'm happy to add a Rec! nt

[Unsane]

128. Nothing will improve. Obama won't rock the boat.

[The Wizard]

129. It's about time

a handful of radicals in Florida didn't control our foreign policy in Latin America.

[mopinko]

134. i think we would have to legalize drugs

for starters. but, i think president obama might just figure that out. don't expect action on that till the second term, tho.

[pleah]

138. K&R#200

[FirstLight]

142. EVERYTHING you say resonates true

Not only should you send a note to the Obama team with these points...

but maybe mention this too -

WE have to RE-draw the map of 20th century and outmoded idealism of US vs THEM
If we are to be a global community, then we have to accept eachother's differences and work together to make it through this time of crisis. Not only financially, but nvironmentally, ec

It has always struck me that the academic communities can work together in multi- national coalitions, but our stupid leaders can't find a way to do the same. There is NO reanoning to holding on to old outmoded ideas of who is the "bad guy" we are all in crisis on this planet, and if we don't pull together, we will all be in deep trouble.

[AlphaCentauri]

143. kikking

[redqueen]

144. Count me in. (nt)

[jjanpundt]

146. That would be a great step forward!

[Kitty Herder]

153. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

Consider it kicked and rec'd, anyway.

[Ken Burch]

159. Thanks.

n/t.

[earthlite]

155. A new approach is now possible but...

Chavez and Castro need to make some changes too. "This President For Life" thing Fidel did and Chavez seems to want to do is wrong. If anyone can show them the light is President Obama. "President Obama" DAMN that feels nice to say and know it's near.

[Ken Burch]

158. The way to get them to make those changes is to FIRST get our new administration

to renounce the idea that the United States has the right to dominate the Western Hemisphere and force all countries within it to obey us. This is not so terribly much to ask.

Doing that, and proclaiming it as a doctrine, would do more to end the "caudillo/president-for-life" thing than anything else.

Clearly, the traditional U.S. approach can't end those things at all.

[xen]

164. Batista regime was racist to the Core

Batista regime was one of the most racist there was,It was proper that he was overthrown.
Most those who fled were the privileged and also racist Whites,wanna be white mestizos,and Mulatto's.
Castro is not prefect but I bet most of who you call Black Cubans who lived under Batista was much better off under Castro?
I am 59 year old and know some of who you would call Black Cubans who lived in Harlem,it was just almost like mississippi for them,same racist oppressive garbage transported down there from the US.
Time to end the embargo and get over it.
Calling people who yearn to be free,Leftist,Communist and all other names to tag people who want to be free from White Supremacy and Imperialism and other forms of oppression,and using the phony excuse of defending America to keep us free,coincidentally anywhere there is Oil, will not work anymore.
They are also upset with Castro because in Angola Cuban troops dealt a crushing blow and defeat to the racist Apartheid regime who was running wild from South Africa to Mozambique to Angola,with their agent Jonas Savimbi,who Sleaze ball Cheney and the other racist re pugs accommodated and praised at the white house.
The days when we could bully and push people around is over,time we recognize that,and start respecting others,And work to achieve goals,not Dictate to to the world about what WE want and threating to Bomb them into submission,or use military force to subdue them.
This out of control arrogance has got to stop.
It will not work in Iraq or anywhere else in todays world.
How about what they want for a change?

[Sebass1271]

171. WHAT THEY WANT FOR CHANGE?

how about Freedom? Freedom to vote, freedom to protest their government, freedom of expression? The cuban people live in fear of oppresion if they speak up against their government.

They want a Democratic society.

[Stevepol]

162. K&R.

[DissedByBush]

163. A little more complex

Chavez isn't the greatest guy, but the right-wing cannot simply agree to disagree on policies and still retain friendly relations.

But our relations with Cuba are more complex. In addition to the right-wing ideology problem, I don't think we've gotten over their era of being Soviet-supported and trying to put nuclear missiles in our backyard (thankfully thwarted by JFK). I don't think we've gotten over all the people Castro and Che murdered to get into power. And then there's the current oppression of dissenters that should put a strain on any relations.

[terrya]

168. K&R

[dipsydoodle]

169. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

Such a shame - I'd do it again. :fistbump:

[Ken Burch]

170. Thanks anyway.

n/t.