Everything good that ever existed in this country came from Liberalism

[Sebastian Doyle]

Conservatism has never resulted in anything worthy of mentioning. So why do we continue to buy into the LIE that it has, and allow the myth of "centrism" to destroy the party of FDR and JFK?

[izzie]

1. I think we always drag the old with us and I hope we make it better

Just look at our history and where so much of how we do things comes from.

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. But how do we "make it better" by continuing to travel down the road we KNOW is wrong?

We know that warmongering and corporatism are killing this country. Why be afraid to say so?

[izzie]

5. Some are not bad. We need talent to fix it and also this

people who want talent and are some what in tune with seeing the new and how to make it better. It is like two steps forward and one back. I am in my 70's and believe me it is a better world than what I was born into. Yes it has a long way to go but be happy it is not the 1930's where I was born. If you read any history you will see it is an endless thing. We never get just where we want to be as once we move to a new place curiosity always shows us a new thing to go for. One thing that never seems to get better in my eyes is the endless people carrying a few things walking roads to get away from wars. I swear it is the same people just in different countries that I saw in Life or the news reels when I was a child. Now I see it on TV. That is so sad to me.

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. We do need the talent to fix it. And I believe it exists, but I'm not sure it's being used

I don't want another thread about the SOS thing, but I'm seriously disappointed that Hillary was chosen over Bill Richardson. One reason being her votes and statements on foreign policy, the other being Richardson's diplomatic experience. And he was not an Iraq war supporter, so I would say he would have more credibility on the foreign stage right now.

Barack was right about the Iraq war in 2002. It was dumb. It was wrong. It was a damn lie. (He didn't say that, but he should have.) I'm not idealistic enough to believe we can make the world a pacifist utopia anytime soon, but at the very least, we should never start wars. And never fight them at all, when they have nothing to do with defending the USA.

[Undercurrent]

3. Hmm... one of my favorite "centrists"

(not a "liberal") said:

Today...the central domestic problems of our time are more subtle and less simple. They do not relate to basic clashes of philosophy and ideology, but to ways and means of recasting common goals -- to research for sophisticated solutions to complex and obstinate issues. What is at stake in our economic decisions today is not some grand warfare of rival ideologies which will sweep the country with passion but the practical management of a modern economy.

What we need are not labels and cliches, but more basic discussion of the sophisticated and technical questions involved in keeping a great economic machinery moving ahead. ...Political beliefs and ideological approaches are irrelevant to the solutions.

Guess who said this?

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. I believe that was the same guy who said he was "Proud to be a Liberal"

He also said that errors in domestic policy could only harm us, but foreign policy could kill us. Of course anything that harms you will also kill you if you do it long enough. For example, the economic policies of the last 28 years. Right now, they're hurting the country as much as the foreign policy of the last 8 years.

[Undercurrent]

6. Yes.

In context, during the 1960 campaign speaking before the NY State Liberal Party, he said:

...if by a liberal they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people - their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties..if that is what they mean by a "liberal" then I am proud to be a liberal.



What he was saying then, and on many other occasions, is that if someone wants to use the term liberal, and ascribe to it a certain philosophy that he agreed with, then call him a liberal. But philosophically, and as he governed, JFK was very much like Obama. A practical man with an understanding of the world, and and ability to bring people in, and move them toward his point of view, thereby getting things done.

Neither JFK, nor Obama are ideologues. For that I'm grateful.

[Sebastian Doyle]

7. The difference between 1960 and today

is that Republicans then were mainly reasonable people like Eisenhower. You may have disagreed on policy, but in the end, you knew that they wanted the best thing for this country too, even if they didn't agree how to get there. Hell, I'd even say that about Barry Goldwater to a certain extent, though at the time he seemed about as extreme as you could find.

But I can't say that about the neocons, the PNAC'ers or the corporatists. They don't give a damn about the American people, and obviously not anybody else on the planet. Or the planet itself. They contribute nothing positive to this country, and after 28 years of watching their policies bring us to the edge of the next Great Depression, I don't see any point in "inclusiveness" when it comes to these crazy, literally anti-American bastards.

Going back to my original question, what good has ever come from Conservatism, and why should we continue to pretend that is the case?

[Undercurrent]

9. Very true.

Sadly, the ideologues (neocons, or political fundamentalists if you will) have taken over the Repug party. Nowadays, a moderate conservative like Eisenhower would be marginalized, or worse. Probably run out of town on a rail.

Sorry I didn't post an answer to your question about what good has ever come from Conservatism. I have such an internal struggle with these labels. The definition has changed over time, and in different contexts. For me Eisenhower was a classic (old school) conservative. That's how I saw him when he was President and I was a young woman. Eisenhower, who was responsible for the interstate highways system would be called a liberal today.

Today people call neocons conservative, but they're not. They abandoned the classic Eisenhower conservatism, and have moved off the map deep into fascist territory.

[Sebastian Doyle]

10. OK, the interstate highway system was a good one, more or less.

Though its original intended purposes were as much of a military nature as they were improving long distance driving for civilians. Ironically, Eisenhower got his inspiration to build the highways from the German Autobahn system, which was designed by the ultimate right wing reactionary, the dude with the bad haircut and funny mustache. (don't want to mention his name and bring that "Godwin's law" crap into this thread)

But it's pretty bad when you had to go all the way back to the 50's to find something good that a Republican did, isn't it?

[JVS]

11. Like trees and rivers and the Interstate Highway System, oh wait, that was Ike, the highway is EVIL!

/insanely stupid partisan mode

[Sebastian Doyle]

12. The trees and rivers were made by God, who is a Liberal

And as for the Interstate Highway System, I already acknowledged that one. And as I said before, it's pretty telling when we have to go back to the 1950's to find something good to say about them. And even that was an idea they borrowed from a genocidal madman.

[Occam Bandage]

14. Nixon did quite a bit of good.

He created the EPA, implemented the first serious affirmative action plan, toned down the Cold War, indexed Social Security to inflation, replaced American soldiers in Vietnam with Vietnamese, brought down the diplomatic walls between China and the Western world, and proposed a universal health-care plan almost identical to the one Hillary ran on this year.

If we're talking about the Goldwater/Reagan breed of conservatism, though, then it's pretty obvious they have nothing to contribute as regards government actions/programs. Their ideology is founded on preventing the government from doing anything. That can be a decent counterbalance from time to time, but it's not likely to lead to any societal advances. I consider them like the brakes in a car--you won't get anywhere with them, and usually it's best if they silently doing nothing whatsoever, but they can be useful for slowing things down every once in a while.

[Sebastian Doyle]

16. What good there was in Nixon came from his Quaker roots

And the Quakers are a liberal denomination. Occasionally with Nixon, his Quaker self overcame his Bush Crime Family programming.

[Occam Bandage]

13. I like coca-cola. I don't think liberalism created that.

[Sebastian Doyle]

15. Well, let me put it this way....

Dick Nixon attended a PepsiCo board meeting in Dallas Texas on 11/22/63, and before that, they bought their sugar from Cuban plantations owned by Prescott Bush and his partners.

So consider the alternative. :)

[Forkboy]

17. Now that's some hardcore sophistry.

I almost feel like applauding.

[Occam Bandage]

18. I try.

[Forkboy]

19. You succeeded!

Be proud.

[ItNerd4life]

20. What about Marriage? What about Capitalism? Are these liberal or conservative ideas?

What about the Civil Rights act? (hint: It was passed by Republicans)
What about ending slavery? (hint: It was ended by Republicans)

Those are 2 HUGE social changes. Were they conservative or liberal ideas?

Your statement leaves alot to be desired in defining what Liberalism is.

[Sebastian Doyle]

23. Abe Lincoln: LIBERAL Republican

They did exist back then. And civil rights were ALWAYS Liberal. It's no secret that the Dixiecrats weren't.

[quakerboy]

21. So your telling me that Liberals made "the Clapper" and

the remote operated LED christmas light string?

I can give you one, but not both, unless you have proof.

[Sebastian Doyle]

22. LED lights save energy, therefore they must have been invented by a Liberal

Clappers were invented by someone too lazy to get up and turn off a light, so that may well have been a conservative invention. Plus it's marketed by the same people who sell Chia pets. Cheesy Xmas gifts? Definitely Republican!

[quakerboy]

24. Naw, Clappers are a mission of mercy to the elderly

One of the Greatest inventions ever that I do not own and probably never will.