Gallup: Black Democrats & Republicans think alike on many 'moral' issues

[wyldwolf]

During the many discussion on DU about what consitutes the "base" of the Democratic party, I've always differed with people over where African Americans fit into the equation when it's suggested the base is the most liberal part of the party. Of course, there are many many progressive black Democrats (as evidenced on DU) but I've never actually met them in my neck of the woods (and I went through a mostly African-American school district.) Socially, they've been mostly conservative.

I'd be interested in the thoughts of others on this figures, specifically African Americans on DU.

The pollsters at Gallup this morning put numbers behind some recent conventional wisdom about the views that many black Democrats have about moral issues.

"In general," Gallup writes, "it appears that black Americans may be conflicted in their attitudes toward certain values issues such as same-sex marriage and homosexual relations. Despite the liberal orientation of the Democratic Party toward moral issues, blacks, perhaps because of their high degree of religiosity, are pulled in the other, more conservative direction that is typical of Republicans."

One example from Gallup's polling shows the similar responses from Republicans and black Democrats on whether homosexual relations are morally acceptable:



more:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/112807/Blacks-Conservative-Republicans-Some-Moral-Issues.aspx

[Alter Ego]

1. That would explain Prop 8.

[atimetocome]

20. yes, that vote on the Prop was a marker for this poll

[EFerrari]

66. How did they get there? Older voters and Catholics passed H8

not black Californians.

[atimetocome]

71. Blacks voted by 70% to pass it. That was my point.

[EFerrari]

73. Well, then your point is based on one questionable poll.

Alameda Co has one of the biggest black pops in the whole state and H8 went down in flames there.

[atimetocome]

78. good for Alameda CO.

[EFerrari]

79. Imho, we should have a healthy skepticism when the media tells us

some part of our coalition has betrayed us.

The same night, it was reported that San Francisco County had only a 58% turn out when we actually had nearly 80%. It was also initially reported that minority voters pushed H8 here, when the real mapping of the precincts showed it was older voters. Then, someone thought to poll religious affiliations and it was shown that the Catholic vote shifted in the last two weeks before the vote -- that would be instigated by the same Catholic archdiocese that invited the Mormons in.

I myself am willing to work with whatever is real. Not so willing to alienate people who voted with us while the real culprits go under the radar.

[atimetocome]

115. a healthy skepticism is good. I do not always hear the followups.

[jonnyblitz]

101. where did you get THAT info from? the same media that you

claim we should be skeptical about when they tell us 70 % blacks voted for it? you are too fucking funny. :rofl: :crazy: :rofl:

[EFerrari]

123. Where? I found different data points from different sources

that corresponded instead of relying on one Mitofsky poll that no one else agreed with. Results from different CA counties with the larger black pops, a Loyola poll for LA County and another poll that appeared in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Critical thinking -- it's hilarious!

[WI_DEM]

35. No Prop 8 still would have passed even if every black voter in CA voted against it.

[Guaranteed]

105. Regardless, they should be voting in favor of civil rights in the same

numbers they're voting for Obama.

They shouldn't be even split 50-50 for and against this kind of thing- it should be 90-10, if they're part of the base.

[BlooInBloo]

118. Doesn't matter. White folks will still blame black folks...

That's just the way it is.

[EFerrari]

127. A whole month later.

[ecstatic]

49. No it wouldn't.. Millions more whites and others in Cali

49% of whites voting YES it what tipped the balance.

[Cha]

147. No, that wouldn't explain Prop 8.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x247474

[ccharles000]

2. That is very sad

[Hutzpa]

3. Really...

would like to know those blacks that have the same value as a Republican,

:rofl:

[wyldwolf]

8. "In my culture, marriage is a man-woman relationship." - Rev. Jesse Jackson

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. I've got choice words for Rev. Jackson.

That quote is the tip of the iceberg. The rest of it has to do with his wanting to cut off the nuts of a certain President-Elect, and the values he holds that compelled him to say it.

[wyldwolf]

17. yeah, me too.

[Hutzpa]

36. Well... some blacks favor

division and conquer, its the Willie Lynch mentality, but we are slowly
moving away from that.

[EFerrari]

75. He's black, and obviously speaks for all black people.

:shrug:

[wyldwolf]

81. when someone asks for an example, I give it

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

82. But you weren't asked for an individual example.

You were asked to show a group agreed with another group.

[wyldwolf]

85. would your "progressive" sensibilities be less offended had I named two? Or three?

:rofl:

Hey, you wanna fight? I have all night to devote to your silly nit picking.

[EFerrari]

124. That's right. I nitpick,you're specific.

lol

[wyldwolf]

134. truer word were never spoken

[Orsino]

98. The request wasn't that specific. n/t

[wyldwolf]

102. but I gave a specific answer.

[JI7]

90. Al Sharpton supports same sex marriage, adoption, gays serving openly

in military etc.

[wyldwolf]

104. And I applaud him

[Beacool]

128. Watch your nuts, Reverend, someone may want to cut them.

:7

[daninthemoon]

9. come to oklahoma, I'll introduce you to as many as you want.

as my wife says, how can any black person be Republican? i think it comes down to churches as much as anything.

[qwlauren35]

146. I know plenty. Why is it so laughable?

I get the feeling you think that all Republicans are racist. They aren't.

Some are just very religious, very pro-life, and think that homosexual acts are sinful (like LOTS of black people I know, who are Democrats.)

And others are just strong capitalists.

And others are just plain RICH, and don't want to be taxed.

And others simply think that the Republican party is more supportive of entrepreneurs.




Democrats don't all have the same pet issues... and neither do Republicans.
And I'm especially tired of people suggesting that Republicans are all stupid. There are plenty of smart Republicans... and plenty of stupid Democrats.

Supporting one's party does NOT automatically mean insulting the other ones.

[alwysdrunk]

4. Yes homophobia is a problem in the black community

I think it will be a long time before it changes. I think it has to do a little with religion, but more to do with the value placed on "toughness" (if that's the right word) in black males. I think that is probably the case with many communities on the low end of the economics scale, and as we know a large percentage of the black community sits there.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

5. It's religion. Religious white Dems do too.

[awoke_in_2003]

84. Well this is a first...

I, and atheist, agree with someone named Jesus :)

[mwei924]

6. 45% of Democrats think homosexuality is not morally acceptable??

What the?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. That was my first takeaway too.

I thought that number would be much, much lower. I'm kind of shocked by that, frankly. Didn't think that many Dems were so... *at loss for words*

[awoke_in_2003]

86. homophobia...

is the last "respectable" prejudice in America.

[hulklogan]

121. That shouldn't shock you after the kinds of things that have been said around here

by alleged progressives during the past year.

[AspenRose]

135. This is a bigger deal, I think, than scapegoating black people over and over again.

[donco6]

7. I'd bet latino/as are the same. n/t

[tritsofme]

10. Its kind of funny actually, if Republicans weren't such racist assholes

they'd probably have a lock on government for years.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. I don't think so.

I don't think Democrats vote "morals" quite as often as Republicans do. Or if we do, it's because we place more value in different "moral" issues than they do.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Is this poll broken out by age?

I know many Black folks who are personally socially conservative, but who do not believe in forcing others to adhere to the beliefs that they themselves personally hold. An example of this is seen via the Abortion issue. In the Black Community, many out-of-wedlock births and teen births are seen through term, and many more mothers keep their children than abort them, and yet abortion is not something that Black folks want to see outlawed.

I believe with outreach, the same can and will be true about Gay rights.

[wyldwolf]

16. the question was worded to differentiate between what one thought should be legal...

...and what one found personally immoral - which is the tact most centrist Democratic candidates take. "I don't personally believe in it, but It's not my place to decide."

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

50. You are absolutely right, FC, as usual! As a young, black woman, I find

that younger blacks are much more tolerant and socially liberal, just like many young whites. The premise that blacks hold different values than the larger, white society, is a myth, a fallacy...and that assumption in itself is racist.

I believe that things are changing. Even among middle-aged blacks, moral issues goes far beyond abortion and gay marriage. That's the problem with the Republicans: all so-called *moral issues* are boiled down to those two things, as if Jesus Christ himself had anything to say about either, and He simply did not. He never discussed homosexuality and never abortion!!

[JuniperLea]

61. And Jesus Christ never forced anyone to follow his Father's rules either...

If we base our laws on Christian beliefs, we must also give ourselves over to the laws of Judaism, Islam, etc.

If people are told it's now the law that we can't eat pork, we must wash our feet and pray five times a day, etc., and no more Christmas either... how long do you suppose these self-righteous people would go for this? We would have to ban alcohol and eliminate laws against marijuana too, since it's part of one religion's culture and spiritual practice.

I think if there is a God, she made everyone... E V E R Y O N E... all people.

[political_Dem]

67. I second this.

This is what I've been pondering during this entire thread.

[skeewee08]

15. They didn't survey this Democrat African America Woman.

[Number23]

116. Your name says it all!!

:hi: :hi:

[jobycom]

18. Which is further proof that we should avoid stereotyping by race.

African Americans statistically vote Democrat because the Democrats support issues involving Civil Rights and as much equality in society as the white majority society will accept. That does not in any way mean all African Americans are liberals or progressives.

Black people are not all alike, they don't all know each other, and they don't all think the same way. I'm always surprised to discover that some white liberals don't know this already.

[pecwae]

23. Good post.

[Number23]

120. Not only that, but if this OP proves anything

It should prove that black folks are a dying breed -- people who actually VOTE THEIR INTERESTS, regardless of social and socio-economic factors.

Black folks can be some of the most socially conservative folks in the entire WORLD. And alot of that comes from a deep, profound sense of community that puts strong emphasis on "conformity" as a way to protect itself. But even in spite of that, black folks will likely continue to vote for the party or individuals who are seen as helping the collective, and not just interested in helping a small (and usually undeserving) few.

I know that there was passionate and heated discussion on Proposition 8 in California which allegedly had large numbers of black support, but there were lots of reasons that bill passed. Similar bills in states with smaller black populations passed as well. I'm not excusing black people or even trying to rehash all of that Prop 8 pain and drama, but what I am saying is that black people as a whole are generally on the more benevolent side of history when it comes to civil rights legislation.

[beachmom]

19. I think many African Americans are indeed socially conservative.

The reason they would not vote Republican is because they feel unwelcome and disrespected there. But, I would be interested to hear their views on abortion -- I think they tend to be pro-choice but I could be wrong. They also tend to be more liberal on issues of helping the poor.

This of course is about a plurality. It is dangerous to stereotype because there are exceptions.

[wyldwolf]

22. there are also abortion figures at the link in the OP

[alwysdrunk]

26. 37% from the link

Lower than I thought it would be. I still think that number be totally different if the question was about outlawing abortion. I think that many pro-choice Americans think that abortion is morally wrong.

[beachmom]

39. You're right. That is not the right question.

The question is whether abortion should stay legal, even if the person thinks it is morally wrong. That is the pro-choice concept in a nutshell.

[ProSense]

21. Obviously, the majority of blacks don't vote simply

based on these so-called "moral" issues (which are probably more religious based than anything). Blacks and Republicans obviously don't think alike on civil rights and other issues, which is why most of the black community vote Democratic.




edited typo

[Occam Bandage]

24. This is not shocking. On most social issues, from environmentalism

to gay marriage, to the "family values" spectrum, to feminism, black voters trend towards conservatism if given a choice. On the other hand, on economic issues, they trend very liberally--more than enough to wipe out the social issues trends. Moreover, there's plenty of bad blood between minorities and Republicans. The Republicans were stupid indeed to rely on racism for so long; had they not, they could be siphoning off considerable numbers of low-information voters concerned about social issues in the black and hispanic communities as they do in rural white communities.

[ProSense]

27. "to feminism" that's nonsense. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

30. Perhaps your experience is different from my own.

However, having lived for most of my life in a black-dominated area, and having been very active in various progressive social organizations, it has been my experience not only that black voters are less receptive to progressive viewpoints as regards feminism, but that people inside feminist-advocacy groups and minority-rights-advocacy groups tend to see each other as competitors rather than allies, even if they do not admit that in public (or, perhaps, even to themselves).

If that seems bizarre to you, step into the WayBack Machine and look at the ferocity and insane one-upsmanship of the "this racism is offensive," "well why are you ignoring sexism," "stop changing the subject," "stop changing the subject" arguments throughout the primaries.

[ProSense]

32. You're right

that has not been my experience.

[marimour]

139. Not to feminism just "white feminism".

As a black woman I find myself in agreement with most feminists on issues but am reluctant to align myself with them and the primaries just enforced that. Speaking with other black women I've had many conversations on how black feminists feel that they weren't welcome in the feminist movement and had to develop one of their own. Being a feminist in the past didn't mean you weren't racist (ex. geraldine ferraro) and it should have meant that. There is the perception among many well educated black women that traditional feminism is a white thing that we cant really relate to and that most feminists don't care about the perspective of black women.

I've been told throughout the primaries by, usually well off middle aged white women that sexism is a bigger problem than racism and thats why I should support Hillary. They just stated this as fact even though they really had no experience of racism to draw from and didn't even ask me what I as a black woman who experience much of both thought. When I would argue with them they seemed reluctant to consider my POV and tended to walk away from the conversation with the same close minded viewpoint.

[alwysdrunk]

31. I disagree with the evironmentalism

Especially among the young and even middle age. Feminism, I don't know about that one either.

[Occam Bandage]

33. Disagree as you will.

I shall happily discard my experiences and begin looking for outside factors that may have led to them if I am presented with polling demonstrating that my perception is flawed.

[EFerrari]

80. Do you have any evidence for your characterization, at all? n/t

[Captain Hilts]

25. This is how Anne Northup got elected in Louisville. In part, because of her pro-life...

stance. It was popular among church-going black voters.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. Religion, not race, is the problem.

[xchrom]

29. this is not new --

on social issues -- i have not known african americans to be particularly liberal or progressive.

obviously NO community is monolithic -- but there does come SOME and reckoning accountability with this.


accusations of racism aren't helpful.

[wyldwolf]

34. accusations of racism?

:shrug:

[xchrom]

93. you weren't around for those. nt

[EFerrari]

74. Neither are casual racist smears.

The younger folks are liberal on social issues. The older folks are not. It's not about race but about generation and still the "black people did it" cr@p continues.

[xchrom]

92. casual ageist smears are ok?

i haven't in my whole motherfuckin life MET ONE -- NOT FUCKIN ONE -- younger person more liberal than say me -- on social issues or anythi9ng else.

and i'm tired of the around the corner accusations like yours.

fuck off.

just fuckin against the wall ignorant.

[WI_DEM]

37. I've never looked at black voters as necessarily liberal but rather the most dependable voting block

democrats have--which they are.

[beachmom]

38. Looking at the link, the most stunning and telling part of the survey

was linking feelings about homosexuality with church attendance. The more often you go to church, the more intolerant you are.

This is a survey that is damning toward religion in America. People are learning to hate in church.

[alwysdrunk]

40. It's in the bible

Not stunning at all. For a religious person to say that homosexuality is morally acceptable they have to reject part of their religious education. You have to hope for a decline in religiosity in general to get those numbers up. Those gay-accepting churches are few and far between.

[ieoeja]

46. And yet, they continue eating shellfish....

[beachmom]

52. Did everyone watch Prop 8 The Musical, starring Jack Black as Jesus?

Jesus kind of sets everyone straight.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/12/prop-8-the-musi.html

[Bluenorthwest]

72. If that is the case, they are in huge trouble

because the religionists break 'Biblical Law' hundreds of times a day. There are literally hundreds of levitical laws dictating the sexual behavior of married straight couples, and yet if you are not an Orthodox Jew, you probably can not name one of them. That is how seriously these religionist take that religion- they don't follow it, don't know it, they abuse it rather than serve it. They use it as a bludgeon.
Any group of people wishing to talk religous morality while accepting unmarried parents, divorce, and adultery is hypocritical and delusional.
Either they practice the Book or they don't. And they don't. So the religion argument is moot until they at least attempt to live by it themselves. So start building the ritual baths and get ready to learn thousands of rules to live by. It would be easier for them to admit that they don't practice their own religion than to try to make me practice it in their stead.

[Engineer4Obama]

103. There are lots of things in the bible

And a lot of it had to do with the Culture at the time. I do not believe that religion itself is the problem but rather that the takeover of religion by Fundamentalists. There has been a concentrated effort to purge liberals from many churches and its working. If you need a text book example take a look at the Southern Baptist Church over the last few decades.

Religion didn't make these people intolerant, these people made religion intolerant.

[JI7]

87. yes, NAACP which is not religious is supportive of gay rights

and it's a black organization.

it does come down to religion.

[last1standing]

41. Can absolutely no one else see through this bullshit poll?

If you were to take a survey based on personal income you would likely see the exact same match between blacks, whites, latinos, muslims, jews, catholics.... The problem isn't one of race or religion, but of ignorance. The more poor you are, the less likely you will have had a chance to learn progressive values. These people hear nearly everything from either their church or TV, neither of which portrays the GLBT community in a good light overall).

Poverty encapsulates a person. Without the ability to feel secure from basic needs, a person cannot focus on concepts of change, only of the moment. Marriage equality means little to someone who worries daily about eviction, healthcare, food costs, and basic safety. This is why the poor are generally ignorant and as we know, the ignorant are solidly republican. Minorities only vote with Democrats in mass numbers because republicans are actively against them.

[wyldwolf]

43. so you're saying they polled poor black Democrats but the white ones and the Republicans had money?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

47. No, but

statistically more blacks are poor and working class than whites in America, so it would make sense that blacks polled had a lower average income than their white counterparts.

[last1standing]

51. I'm saying that demographically, African American's are the poorest subset of people.

So there is a far better chance when polling specifically for black people that you will poll a person in poverty. Please tell me you knew that, already. It is the main reason we have affirmative action. There is a large underclass in the black community that is generationally impoverished just as you'll find the same underclass of white people in the Appalachians. Both underclasses tend to be extremely conservative socially because they have little time or ability for self actualization.

I thought this was obvious.

[Occam Bandage]

58. Do you have evidence Gallup did not correct/account for income level?

[last1standing]

60. Do you have evidence they did?

Maybe you think the negative can be proved but most of us realize that fallacy.

[sampsonblk]

42. I object to the way you framed this

Its an oxymoron to refer to blacks as socially conservative. There is a pro-white, xenophobic component to social conservatism. In terms of race, blacks have very little to conserve.

All you are talking about is issues that involve religion. That's to be expected. Christianity is what it is. That's where you will probably find the real distinction. Its not about race, its about who believes that the bible is literally the word of God.

[wyldwolf]

44. I knew someone would eventually. next time, I'll lay down some eggshells

[sampsonblk]

122. Not a big deal-nt

[EFerrari]

69. It's also about generation. Young people and their grandparents don't agree

on social issues a lot of the time.

[Bluenorthwest]

76. If it is about who

beleives the bible and follows it the answer is no body. The Bible is in favor of slavery. Stoning your children for back talk. Women in their silent place in meeting. There are rules that dictate every aspect of behavior. Eating pork equals death. Divorce is the equivilant of whoremongering, according to Jesus.
So let me know when you find one without sin. All I see is sinners casting stones.

But you are right, the problem is the religionist mind set, the arrogance and the ignorance that revolves around such sanctimonious fools.

[sampsonblk]

125. That is a very confused analysis of what bible believers believe in

That's an outsider's view of what christianity is.

In any event, I am not speaking about what the bible says. I am talking about a specific group of people who believe that God literally sent the bible to humankind. Thso are the people who voted against prop 8. And I don't think it has anything to do with race.

(Not talking about a literal interpretation or about who literally follows the exact words - no one does.)

[Bluenorthwest]

143. Darling I don't think it has to do with race either

it has to do with hypocrisy and an outwardly based religiosity rather than the inward and self inspecting path that was taught by the man Jesus. My point is that one does not get to select passages for enforcment, it is all or nothing, or it is hypocrisy. You can not quote Levitical law to me if you eat pork or any of thousands of other laws the religious folks simply ignore without being an utter hypocrite.
Jesus taught to look to the log in our own eye, not the speck in our brother's. He said only one without sin has right to cast a stone. I did not say that. Jesus did. Anyone casting a stone or pointing a finger best be sinless, as the man Jesus refused to throw that stone himself.

[ecstatic]

45. There's always a huge margin of error when polling blacks

Yawn. More divide and conquer attempts. Congrats to gallup. :eyes:

[political_Dem]

48. I'm just surprised

that for the dominant culture to emphasize individuality so much, that when it come down to a poll, some are quick to use "an entire community" in order to pigeon-hole the beliefs of many different people.

It smells like hypocrisy here.

[last1standing]

53. It absolutely reeks of hypocrisy.

But then we both know that an extremist, is an extremist. It doesn't matter what titles they give themselves or the excuses they use for hating.

[political_Dem]

55. And that is especially true

when it came down to the scape-goating and hatred of Black people that happened in the wake of the passage of Prop. 8. It still happens even though the polls that were used have been debunked and analyzed.

[last1standing]

59. Believe me, 'teh gays are too pushy' is up there as well.

How dare those in the GLBT community actually demand equal rights? It's very presumptuous of us, you know. I've also noticed how not one person in this thread has actually equated the glaring number of black people who are in the permanent underclass as the real reason for the increased number of social conservatives in that demographic. Too many want to fight the symptoms and not the root causes.

Poverty = ignorance = fear = hatred = extremism. Maybe that is simple enough for everyone to understand. :shrug:

[Forkboy]

62. "Maybe that is simple enough for everyone to understand."

Don't bet on it.

[alwysdrunk]

63. More than one has

I mentioned it in post 4. Post 41 is completely addressing this. I disagree with everyone just assuming "religion". That does account for some of the problem, but I think the economic factor is a much bigger reason.

[political_Dem]

64. It's not only that.

I think the way the poll results have been analyzed pretty much has to do with looking at these aspects with a "privileged eye". Entitlement distorts the reality of those from disenfranchised groups.

I'd also say, that poverty does not always equal ignorance, fear, or hatred. There are a lot of rich people who are just as ignorant, fearful and hateful of others. After all, the rich and the privileged are enveloped in their own little world apart from people of color as well as the poor or the working class. Their only perception of folks of color either come from television or from the workers they hire to serve them.

Paris Hilton is an example of this. She's been filmed using racial expletives and derogatory phrases regarding folks of color--that is, until she was called out for it. Let's just say that prison was the great equalizer for her.

So, there's plenty of blame to go around.

[last1standing]

112. I used a blanket statement to cover people in general, not to say that all are a certain way.

I definitely agree that there are impoverished people who are not ignorant and wealthy people who, as you say, are just like Paris Hilton. In general, however, poverty restricts one's ability to look beyond the immediate, leaving no room for self actualization. People who have limited time and resources for education should generally not be blamed for their lack of insights.

We need education in this country on a host of issues. We also need to remove people from situations that force them to think only of immediate needs. The corporate class has done an excellent job in keeping these things from happening because a poor, ignorant workforce is more malleable.

I would also suggest that Paris Hilton is the exception in that her ignorance is self inflicted. Most of the wealthy who are also racist tend to be so for reasons of greed, not ideology.

[political_Dem]

119. That's why people have to be a little bit open minded when exploring the issues behind

Prop. 8 and same-sex marriage in the 2008 Elections. I agree with you that education is a very important tool in enhancing the knowledge of all issues in society. But, there is also something that bothers me when people discuss whether a "certain group" is ignorant because of their race or class and uses it as a blanket statement.

You said it yourself that not all people should be defined by a given set of observances. And to label people of color (as a result of this particular issue) as being "ignorant" and "poor" reinforces the perceptions in the dominant culture that all people of color are a part of those circumstances.

That is why polls like the one in the OP produce more problems than solutions when discussing hot-button issues such as what happened during Prop. 8.

If all people of color are perceived by the dominant culture to be "ignorant, malleable and poor" if they voted against same-sex marriage, then how would the people of color who voted against Prop. 8 and other legislation in their prospective states be thought of? There are a lot of Black folks who don't support and voted against the proposition. In the same fashion, there are a lot of Black Democrats who do support and lobby hard for same-sex marriage. How do you think they feel when they get lumped into the derision of being thought of as "poor, ignorant and malleable"?

Would people think the same of poor white people because of how they voted?

This is the one point I have consistently wondered about whenever anyone brings up the issue of ignorance, class and race in situations like these.

[last1standing]

130. Fair enough. I could have worded my posts better.

However, I do believe that ignorance, to a large degree, is caused by poverty and that it affects all people equally when put in that situation. As I mentioned elsewhere, the Appalachians are filled with poor, ignorant white people (my relatives, in fact). They're not bad human beings, they just live the way they need to live in order to survive and they are, indeed, poor, ignorant and malleable. This is the situation that poverty creates. Do I believe based on this subgroup that all white people are ignorant, of course not, and I would never believe that of black people either.

I think a good example of this situation in an 'ignorant white person' analogy would be the proposal to ban affirmative action that passed here in Michigan a few years ago. A republican linked hate group spent great sums of money to suggest that black people were being given an unfair advantage in college admissions at the University of Michigan and created a petition to ban UofM from using it's own criteria for admissions. They had the money and knew where to target their energies - poor, white, rural Michiganians from areas far from Detroit who would never send their kids to UofM and would never be affected in any way by their admissions policy. Of course they voted for it and it passed, strongly. Does that make me willing to make a broad statement about white people? Of course not. And I'm not trying to make a broad statement about black people, either. I'm making a broad statement about poverty and the ignorance that tends to accompany it.

The simple truth that every right wing government understands is that their best allies are those who understand the least. Knowledge is power so it must be kept from the masses. Republicans in this country have done very well over the last 30 years in ensuring that as few people are honestly educated as possible. This is why we have slipped behind nearly the entire industrialized world in education.

[gingersnaps1]

97. Second that.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

54. The good thing is

that most blacks vote their interests rather than their fears, whereas with socially conservative whites it is the opposite.

[wyldwolf]

56. best point of the thread so far.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

100. I do agree with you

that most people here at DU are wrong when they say "progressives" are the base of the party. They are certainly a part of it, but,IMHO, blacks and women are the larger parts of the Democratic base.

[Raineyb]

129. Some of us have been saying this for some time.

At the time the accusation was that black people were voting for Obama because he's black.

:shrug:

Sometimes I don't think white people listen to black people at all when we speak.

Regards

[NikolaC]

57. delete

[EFerrari]

65. Propaganda Alert

[onenote]

68. while religion may explain this poll in large part, its probably more complicated

For example, one of the few areas where black dems have more progressive stance as to what is morally acceptable than white dems is with respect to the death penalty (47 percent of black dems say its morally acceptable, compared to 59% nonblack dems). That might be explained by religion, but then again, the same religious views that inform some of the repubs don't seem to hold in the case of the death penalty. The more likely explanation is that the black community, understandably given historical experience, has plenty of reason to be opposed to the death penalty. So, to a certain extent, the results are not merely a reflection of religion, but also of the different experience of black americans.

[ismnotwasm]

70. Nice

Jesus H. Christ

Yeah, yeah, me too, I went to a black school district. I raised my kids in a multi-ethnic area, FUCK white flight. I still live here. All white neighborhoods with their token bits of color allowed in are breed ugliness and peserve white entitlement.

Are you trying for a civil discussion on a mostly white political board, one that while it has certainly and frequently does have it's shining moments, doesn't always have the brightest bulbs in the pack regarding race, gender or sexual politics?

A Gallup poll does not tell the whole story when it comes to voting along racial lines. Not even part of the story.

And from my favorite blogger
Meanwhile, during a brief moment of connectivity, I note a trend toward blaming “minorities” for the wild success of recent gay marriage bans. I would suggest (again) that those most concerned with penis placement are godbags first and “minorities” second. My suspicions about the structure of Hetero-American culture are threefold.

"Fold number one: Godbags — and their non-proselytizing but higher-power-believin’ brethren, the godbag-lites — regardless of race, creed, or color, are the majority in the US.* Fold number two: even if they weren’t the majority, godbags like to vote more than truthbags. Fold number three: Heterosexual honkys, as a general category, hate homos as much as the next guy."

[Anarcho-Socialist]

77. Hurricane Katrina and the very public racism of the GOP in 2008

places African-Americans beyond the Republican Party for a generation or more.

[Deja Q]

83. Oh look! Racial profiling!

I remember the days when everyone thought that was bad...

[polichick]

88. That's pretty interesting...

I would not have guessed that blacks are so much more religious than whites, but it was interesting making calls from bo.com for the election ~ almost every phone message left by black voters included the words, "Bless you" or "Have a blessed day."

[gingersnaps1]

95. Perhaps it was a targeted group of African Americans that you were calling.

That shouldn't be a representation for all African Americans

[polichick]

96. Well, they were registered Dems in PA and FL from bo.com...

Don't know if the lists were targeted in other ways.

[Orsino]

89. Same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue, not a "moral issue."

Anyone who thinks otherwise has...moral issues.

[polichick]

91. On NPR there was a discussion about this...

Seems people vote it re: morals rather than rights ~ the guests were wondering where to go from here, emphasizing basic rights or using a p.r. campaign to show how gay couples are like straight couples.

[gingersnaps1]

94. Here we go with the friggin' scapegoating

Black people stopped gay marriage in California...Black people stopped Martin from winning in Georgia. It is friggin' amazing that 12.5% of the population has so much god damned power yet they are one of the most marginalized.

[camera obscura]

99. "Regardless of whether or not you think it should be legal"

yes, you can generally hypothesize that "black Democrats" (a pretty unscientific grouping there, I'd add) are more religious. So are Hispanic Democrats, Southern Democrats, etc. But believe it or not there are people out there who can think something is morally unacceptable but know it's not their place to regulate it.

For example I would never have an abortion, but I feel VERY strongly that it's a right for a woman to have control over her body. Just because I consider it personally unacceptable doesn't mean I feel any less strongly about keeping it legal.

[jberryhill]

110. Bingo!

That's precisely where this poll misses the mark.

Whether I find something morally acceptable, neutral, good, bad, or whatever, usually has nothing to do with whether my personal opinion on an issue should be public policy or the law of the land.

Some people are able to draw that sort of line, and some people don't get it.

"What about murder? Isn't that a 'moral' issue?" - It's as if these types of people do not understand how to draw that type of line at all. As a matter of practical ethics, murder is not an acceptable behavior. Even as a simple matter of self interest, a murderer might kill me, and I would prefer not to be killed or to have any of my loved ones killed.

But, even if I thought that homosexuality was some sort of utter evil (which I don't), it makes utterly no difference in my life whether the two guys next door are married and having raunchy steamy sex 24/7. So, more power to them. Why do I need a law to protect me from other people's decisions about whom they love or what consenting adults do with their genitals, regardless of whether its something I'd be interested in doing, approve of, or otherwise find either repugnant or attractive?

[psychmommy]

106. divide and conquer.

[Douglas Carpenter]

107. there are many socially conservative people who naturally lean left on economic issues and

possibly even foreign policy issues.

One sees this most commonly among ethnic minorities and frequently among working class white people.

"Socially conservative" does not necessarily mean that they are personally judgmental toward people they deal with in real life situations. It has more to do with how socially conservative societies feel about public appearances. I would suspect if the same groups were polled about how they feel about pre-marital sex or heterosexual marriages with "open relationships" one might find very similar responses - especially when these matters are openly proclaimed.

Of course and obviously educated liberal society recognizes that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice any more than race is a matter of choice. But even educated liberal society only came to this enlightened understanding within the past few decades.

There is simply more social inertia within conservative social orders which usually hold that people can do as they please - but they shouldn't talk about it. It takes time and the rise of new generations of thinking for deeply entrenched attitudes to change.

[agentS]

108. Black Dems are not single-issue voters, unlike a majority of White Repubs

It's fairly obvious that we can ascertain this from the poll and from anecdotal or other polling evidence.

African-Americans (AA) may be more socially conservative than Caucasian Democrats (CD) but AAs base their votes on more than social 3rd-rail issues. Otherwise, they wouldn't vote in the high 80s to mid 90s in percentage for Democratic presidential candidates.
White Republicans have been blasting each other over this for years. Why can't we attract Black voters if they share our social values? they ask again and again.
And what do they do- Double down on racism, bigotry, economic fascism, and race-baiting. Just look at this past election; The Ashley Todd (hoax to cause race-baiting) incident, the Sarah Palin rallies (See the Al-jazeera interview videos), the Katrina/Rita/Gustav/Ike responses by FEMA (see the trailers of death), the Iraq War, and so on and so forth.
CDs have known this for years: If you want a group of people to help you, don't kick them while they're down.

White Republicans could learn something from AA voters. Well, they could learn a lot of things, but first and foremost Don't base your votes on single issues like Abortion or Gay Marriage.

[elkston]

109. For the last time - its NOT religion. It's the "macho" expectation of black men

Yes, many black people (I'm black, BTW) *are* religious but black churches generally do NOT spend time discussing homosexuality and abortion.

The resistance to homosexuality is cultural and is rooted in the struggle of black men to mantain their pride and dignity in the face of discrimination and ridicule. Black men are thus expected to be strong and masculine; and being openly gay is perceived to be at odds with these ideals.

So it's not the "sinfulness" of homosexuality, but rather the connection to femininity that certain black males find offensive.

Note that this is mostly directed at gay males. Lesbians are treated with indifference or begrudging tolerance.

Again, someone stated earlier, all black people are not the same. I am just giving you my impressions as a member of this group with many years of interactions and observations.

[anonymous171]

111. The next realignment? Fuck.

[MadMaddie]

113. Whatever the number everyone here has to remember

that the gay community and it's supporters failed to go to the minority neighborhoods and churches. They felt they wouldn't be welcomed so they didn't try.

If they would have done an outreach program they could have fought the Mormon church and the Catholic church. They could have fought the lies and propaganda that these churches spread.

The Black community is not the only community that was neglected. I understand money may have been an issue but that still doesn't ignore the fact of getting out into these communities.

[political_Dem]

114. I agree.

This is the one point that gets forgotten in a lot of the "scape-goating" threads based on shoddy poll results and a privileged point of view.

[IndianaGreen]

117. The children of slavery could have chosen Marx, instead they chose the white god Jesus

so this is what you get when you adopt the religion of your Southern masters.

[Lady-Damai]

140. Jesus is WHITE? n/t

[Leo The Cleo]

126. No surprise

This is not any surprise and there is no new data. We can grab nearly any black off the street and they will tell you. I'm Black. I'll tell you. However, don't be surprised. Most ethnic groups are the same way. Things like prop 8 didn't get passed simply because the black vote. In the democratic primary a larger percentage of Blacks voted for Barack Obama, then voted for prop 8. So, why'd th at happen? Cuz other ethnic groups, who have larger numbers voted for prop 8 too.

[RyanEb]

131. I don't know about you all...

but I am SOOO over conservatives...

[gulliver]

132. That's mostly good news.

The door works both ways. If I were Republican leaders, I wouldn't take signs of common ground between blacks and Republican voter segments as good news. Stoking fear/loathing of blacks gives the GOP their Southern regional power. If white Republican voters see common ground with blacks, they are more likely to depart the GOP than blacks are to depart the Democratic Party.

The anti-gay bigotry is the bad part, but that is a bipartisan failing. And it seems clear to me that it is a failing that is beginning to dissipate. Openly gay people are the ones leading the charge on that, IMO. They make it hard for families to oppose homosexual civil rights. If you know one of "your own family" is gay, and you still love them (usually, I think you do), then your attitude changes.

[No Elephants]

133. I strongly distrust Gallup's motives here. However, religion has been a huge factor in

politics since Roe v. Wade and the "silent majority." To whatever extent, if any, the figures are accurate, it's about failure to separate church and state. Making it about race is a mistake for Democrats, but works to the advantage of Republicans. That is why they do it and why we shouldn't. Abortion and homosexuality are wedge issues. We (Dems) should find a way around them that religious folks can live with. (I don't mean compromise. I am uncompromisingly and vigorously pro-gay marriage, more so that I am pro-choice. Yet, I am a hetero woman. Go figure.) Instead, we bash religion, especially Catholics and evangelicals, and now it seems we are about to start bashing African Americans and/or gays. Do the terms "counter productive," "shooting yourself in the foot," and "cutting off your nose to spite your face" ever have any meaning at all for Democrats?

[Beacool]

136. Pretty interesting back and forth.

I've got no horse in this discussion, but it's disappointing that one oppressed group voted to continue the oppression of another.

:eyes:

[Jennicut]

137. the AA community relies on the church heavily in their communities

especially in the inner cities, with the drugs, violence and overall poverty the church is a safe haven. But these church leaders also need to learn some tolerance for others.

[w4rma]

138. This isn't the important data. The important data would come from the question of legallity.

Folks can be morally opposed to something (like worshiping Buddha) but not wish to outlaw it.

[No Elephants]

144. The legality issue is exactly what makes it a separation of church and state issue.

[dionysus]

141. so do a lot of southern democrats

[freestyle]

142. Tells me lots of Black folks are keeping up appearances.

Read some work by bell hooks, or Patricia Hill Collins, or Michelle Wallace that get into the history of the distortions placed on sexuality among Black people throughout American history and an understanding of the roots of stated (although not acted) sexual conservatism among black people becomes clearer. There is a powerful investment in seeking "manhood" that results in lots of warped thinking.

The poll also reveals that religion seems to have a far greater impact on expression than on behavior. The phrasing of "morally unacceptable" will lead to different responses from people who are hearing "religiously permitted" than from people who are looking directly at harm or good to individuals and society. Based on other statistics about sexual behavior, out-of-wedock births, etc., it is clear that many of the poll respondents probably engaged in behaviors they claim are "morally unacceptable"

The raw numbers of the poll are almost meaningless without an involved discussion of how this interest in policing sexuality and presenting a conservative appearance developed.

[qwlauren35]

145. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm so glad that you posted this.

It really needed saying.

Perhaps now, when people suggest that "No, Black Democrats Would NEVER Leave the Party", a few will point to this and say "Well, uh, maybe they would!"

The reason why I don't use the term "right wing nutjobs" is because we have an entire group of ultra-religious conservatives in our own party... that progressives ignore, or worse still, don't really even know about.

I have said before, and will say again: African-American Civil Rights (and Affirmative Action) is only a LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVE issue to WHITE PEOPLE, standing on the outside of the issue.

And so, it's important to note that there has never been any evidence that the majority of African-Americans are liberal/progressive on social/moral issues.

I have no doubt that memories will be short, and most DUers will have forgotten this basic fact soon enough. But I hope it will help some understand that OBAMA IS NOT A LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVE EITHER.

And perhaps the only reason why he is rated as such is for supporting issues that help the working and middle class, for supporting abortion rights, and fighting on environmental issues.

There is absolutely nothing about him that screams "liberal". And for some reason, the liberals embraced him anyway, and now wonder why. I wonder too. Black has never meant liberal.

At this point, I am starting to believe that SOME liberal (white) folks were duped by their own ignorance about African-Americans, and ASSUMED that Obama would be liberal, despite all evidence to the contrary.

I'm enjoying having a black president. But those who wanted a true liberal were probably better off with Hillary.