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WOW, AIG gets $150 Billion with NO PLAN and the BIG THREE don't have the votes with a plan!!!

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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:40 PM
Original message
WOW, AIG gets $150 Billion with NO PLAN and the BIG THREE don't have the votes with a plan!!!
Edited on Wed Dec-03-08 08:41 PM by KansasVoter
What in the hell is wrong with congress??

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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. AIG and others haven't done what they promised either
:grr:
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. And they keep getting more money.
WTF?
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. I think that had a big effect on future bailouts.
Post-bailout pictures of AIG Execs cavorting at a resort and the fact that the money we gave them has not been accounted for did a pretty good job of turning public opinion against bailouts in general.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. The entire thing is really irritating me....the banks can get whatever
they need based on this emergency crap they made up but this industry has to jump through hoops.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. the american people are being robbed in broad daylight-no one,including obama,is stopping it
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. that would be the "not president yet" part
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Choices Mr Obama has for his top positions don't give me much hope
His remarks about Paulson working hard was a "good job there, Brownie" moment for me and many others.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. well, you can READ into things whatever you want
facts are that he made his point clear and it was logical.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. Okay, then here's one for you - you can pull an intervention on my
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 12:37 PM by truedelphi
Negativity -

How will Pres Obama's choice of Daschle help those of us (Including some of my very RW friends) achieve the needed goal of Universal Single Payer Health Care??

You get great props if you can disencourage me from Pooh poohing O's choice of this man.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. There is no new President - what we have is the restoration of a
Monarchy - with Paulson as King.

Can we all grin shit-eating grins and say "Banana Republic, boys and girls?"
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. yes.
n/t
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Remember the DOW fell 777 points, we needed to give them
hundreds of billions.

:sarcasm:

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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is insane
Seriously...those financial institutions caused the credit crunch and yet they are the ones that get money. If there is ever a vote, any Democrat that votes against an automotive bailout but supported the original 700 billion bailout needs to be targeted in the 2010 primaries.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Obviously it's not WHAT you know but WHO you know.
:grr:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Oh, poor Detroit automakers. No lobbying influence at all in Congress.
Nope, not a bit. Haven't gotten a favorable law or regulation passed in decades. Poor idealistic naifs. Just don't know how to play the game.

:eyes:

This bailout hasn't passed yet because the American people have quickly grown sick of throwing billions of dollars down sinkholes, in hopes of rescuing moribund, malpractitioning megacorporations.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. It's MILLIONS of workers DIRECTLY involved in the auto industry
NO ONE on DU seems to get that. And IT IS A FUCKING LOAN!!!!!!!!
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. I like Michael Moore's ideas on the big three
their common stock is only 3 billion dollars, we could buy them outright for 3 billion instead of flushing 25billion down the toilet, replace the management, and have them retool to make a 21rst century transportation system for the country. electric cars, light rail, trains etc..

from MM:

Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008

Friends,

I drive an American car. It's a Chrysler. That's not an endorsement. It's more like a cry for pity. And now for a decades-old story, retold ad infinitum by tens of millions of Americans, a third of whom have had to desert their country to simply find a damn way to get to work in something that won't break down:

My Chrysler is four years old. I bought it because of its smooth and comfortable ride. Daimler-Benz owned the company then and had the good grace to place the Chrysler chassis on a Mercedes axle and, man, was that a sweet ride!

When it would start.

More than a dozen times in these years, the car has simply died. Batteries have been replaced, but that wasn't the problem. My dad drives the same model. His car has died many times, too. Just won't start, for no reason at all.

A few weeks ago, I took my Chrysler in to the Chrysler dealer here in northern Michigan -- and the latest fixes cost me $1,400. The next day, the vehicle wouldn't start. When I got it going, the brake warning light came on. And on and on.

You might assume from this that I couldn't give a rat's ass about these miserably inept crapmobile makers down the road in Detroit city. But I do care. I care about the millions whose lives and livelihoods depend on these car companies. I care about the security and defense of this country because the world is running out of oil -- and when it runs out, the calamity and collapse that will take place will make the current recession/depression look like a Tommy Tune musical.

And I care about what happens with the Big 3 because they are more responsible than almost anyone for the destruction of our fragile atmosphere and the daily melting of our polar ice caps.

Congress must save the industrial infrastructure that these companies control and the jobs they create. And it must save the world from the internal combustion engine. This great, vast manufacturing network can redeem itself by building mass transit and electric/hybrid cars, and the kind of transportation we need for the 21st century.

And Congress must do all this by NOT giving GM, Ford and Chrysler the $34 billion they are asking for in "loans" (a few days ago they only wanted $25 billion; that's how stupid they are -- they don't even know how much they really need to make this month's payroll. If you or I tried to get a loan from the bank this way, not only would we be thrown out on our ear, the bank would place us on some sort of credit rating blacklist).

Two weeks ago, the CEOs of the Big 3 were tarred and feathered before a Congressional committee who sneered at them in a way far different than when the heads of the financial industry showed up two months earlier. At that time, the politicians tripped over each other in their swoon for Wall Street and its Ponzi schemers who had concocted Byzantine ways to bet other people's money on unregulated credit default swaps, known in the common vernacular as unicorns and fairies.

But the Detroit boys were from the Midwest, the Rust (yuk!) Belt, where they made real things that consumers needed and could touch and buy, and that continually recycled money into the economy (shocking!), produced unions that created the middle class, and fixed my teeth for free when I was ten.

For all of that, the auto heads had to sit there in November and be ridiculed about how they traveled to D.C. Yes, they flew on their corporate jets, just like the bankers and Wall Street thieves did in October. But, hey, THAT was OK! They're the Masters of the Universe! Nothing but the best chariots for Big Finance as they set about to loot our nation's treasury.

Of course, the auto magnates used be the Masters who ruled the world. They were the pulsating hub that all other industries -- steel, oil, cement contractors -- served. Fifty-five years ago, the president of GM sat on that same Capitol Hill and bluntly told Congress, what's good for General Motors is good for the country. Because, you see, in their minds, GM WAS the country.

What a long, sad fall from grace we witnessed on November 19th when the three blind mice had their knuckles slapped and then were sent back home to write an essay called, "Why You Should Give Me Billions of Dollars of Free Cash." They were also asked if they would work for a dollar a year. Take that! What a big, brave Congress they are! Requesting indentured servitude from (still) three of the most powerful men in the world. This from a spineless body that won't dare stand up to a disgraced president nor turn down a single funding request for a war that neither they nor the American public support. Amazing.

Let me just state the obvious: Every single dollar Congress gives these three companies will be flushed right down the toilet. There is nothing the management teams of the Big 3 are going to do to convince people to go out during a recession and buy their big, gas-guzzling, inferior products. Just forget it. And, as sure as I am that the Ford family-owned Detroit Lions are not going to the Super Bowl -- ever -- I can guarantee you, after they burn through this $34 billion, they'll be back for another $34 billion next summer.

So what to do? Members of Congress, here's what I propose:

1. Transporting Americans is and should be one of the most important functions our government must address. And because we are facing a massive economic, energy and environmental crisis, the new president and Congress must do what Franklin Roosevelt did when he was faced with a crisis (and ordered the auto industry to stop building cars and instead build tanks and planes): The Big 3 are, from this point forward, to build only cars that are not primarily dependent on oil and, more importantly to build trains, buses, subways and light rail (a corresponding public works project across the country will build the rail lines and tracks). This will not only save jobs, but create millions of new ones.

2. You could buy ALL the common shares of stock in General Motors for less than $3 billion. Why should we give GM $18 billion or $25 billion or anything? Take the money and buy the company! (You're going to demand collateral anyway if you give them the "loan," and because we know they will default on that loan, you're going to own the company in the end as it is. So why wait? Just buy them out now.)

3. None of us want government officials running a car company, but there are some very smart transportation geniuses who could be hired to do this. We need a Marshall Plan to switch us off oil-dependent vehicles and get us into the 21st century.

This proposal is not radical or rocket science. It just takes one of the smartest people ever to run for the presidency to pull it off. What I'm proposing has worked before. The national rail system was in shambles in the '70s. The government took it over. A decade later it was turning a profit, so the government returned it to private/public hands, and got a couple billion dollars put back in the treasury.

This proposal will save our industrial infrastructure -- and millions of jobs. More importantly, it will create millions more. It literally could pull us out of this recession.

In contrast, yesterday General Motors presented its restructuring proposal to Congress. They promised, if Congress gave them $18 billion now, they would, in turn, eliminate around 20,000 jobs. You read that right. We give them billions so they can throw more Americans out of work. That's been their Big Idea for the last 30 years -- layoff thousands in order to protect profits. But no one ever stopped to ask this question: If you throw everyone out of work, who's going to have the money to go out and buy a car?

These idiots don't deserve a dime. Fire all of them, and take over the industry for the good of the workers, the country and the planet.

What's good for General Motors IS good for the country. Once the country is calling the shots.

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
32. agree
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. Excellent MM.
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ShadowLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. Bailouts are becoming so toxic that AIG's wastes have helped poison things in even Michigan
From what I read in an article today there's quite a few people you can find in Michigan even willing to say they're against the bailout of the Big 3, despite the state having the highest unemployment rate of any state right now (9.4% I think).

I think part of the problem is the wastes some of the banks and AIG have done with bailout money is poisoning bailouts where people actually have a plan to recover the bailout money later, or actually save the industry.

I mean some bank used most of their bailout money to buy out another bank, and then AIG executives keep on taking expensive work vacations (which in reality they probably used to take quite often before the bailout, but now it's at least somewhat on taxpayers money so it's an issue).

From what I read in an article the history isn't always the best on if bailouts of companies work at saving those companies, it's kind of 50/50.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. A $25 billion dollar buy out would trump a bail out
if the stock is worth 3 billion then it would seem the moneychangers that sunk Detroit would be happy to kick rocks for seven times their value. No fuss no bus.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. What are you going to do about the liabilities and the contracts?
It's more than buying stock.

Geesch. I thought I sucked at economics, but I at least know something about stocks purchases v. company buy-outs!
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. screw them
no bailout for the auto industry unless the top 4 levels of execs agree to leave immediately. Preferably the country.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. they do what they are told.....
the people who elected them are to stupid to see the "big picture"
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. The "plan" the carmakers put forth is old stuff. I read about
the proposed end of the Pontiacs several years ago,(right after Olds was dropped) and of the proposed sellng of Saab and Saturn as well. Hummers would never have sold the few they did without extensive tax breaks going with every sale.
It is all stuff that was in the works for some time,just put in one report and called a plan.
Let them go bankrupt and re-organize.
Oh, and let's start keeping tabs on whats left of the wall street bailout, too, while there is still a few bucks remaining.


mark
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. They've almost spent the full 350 billion they can spent before going back to Congress for rest
...and its done nothing, mainly because they are having trouble with keeping the recipients accountable, and banks took the money that came with little to no restrictions and bought other banks and beefed up their own assets rather than lending and opening up lines of credit.

So we're more or less right where we were three months ago, except with that much more of debt hanging over the heads of the working class.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. And these guys are paid HOW MUCH? nt.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
18. they are owned.
and not by workers or anyone associated with workers.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yep - our side too.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. unless you are in management at a large corporation
or you are wealthy, you no longer have a side in our political system.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. What about Barack - is he on our side??
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. time will tell,
but the economic team he selected sure as hell isn't
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I don't know much about those economic picks...
I guess Wall Street was jubilant for a reason, huh?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. I dunno about Barack, but Larry Summers, Austan Goolsbee, and Jason Furman are not. nt
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kiranon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. With the financial companies, it's a family matter. The Big 3 are outsiders.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
28. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The fact that AIG gets money it shouldn't get doesn't mean that the big three should get money in a way that they shouldn't get it.

I don't think they shouldn't get government help. But I believe that help should come with an ownership stake for the government, and that congress should outline the terms in which a 35 billion dollar loan will be administered and spent.

Short of that, there should be no money.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Have you just emerged from a coma? $325 billion handed to Citi after sending the Big 3 packing
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Um.... it is a loan.
:shrug:
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. Apparantly Congress doesn't own American Auto stock, that's what's wrong w/them.
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