AFAIC, the Big 3 automakers dug their own grave & don't deserve squat

[mtnsnake]

They could see this coming for decades, only they never thought it could actually knock them on the ass as hard as it did...and with such little actual notice.

Their greed kept them looking in the other direction for decades. Instead of planning ahead and building greener, more efficient cars like they do overseas, the Big 3 automakers were pushing Hummers and giant SUV's down everyone's throats as if it was the patriotic thing to do, to own one of those monsters.

The bigshots knew what would eventually happen, but they sorely underestimated the timing of it. None of them ever dreamed it would really happen on any of their own shifts. Their greed for the dollar caused them to grossly miscalculate how much time they had left.

They really need to learn like everyone else. Sometimes it's best to let nature take its course, especially in cases of greed and gross mismanagement.

Let them beg for money somewhere else instead of from the taxpayers. There isn't a one of them who would ever bail any of us out.

Besides, the hard-working people who currently work for the Big 3 would probably be better off working for more responsible automakers than what we've got now. Letting nature take its course would open up the market for some much needed new competition in this country when it comes to building better cars. Giving the Big 3 a handout will only prolong the agony at taxpayers expense.

[Raschel]

1. The workers will pay while the company and our gov't walks away with their pockets full.

Say goodbye to the industry that was the backbone of America.

[sufrommich]

2. So where should those hundreds of thousands of brave

workers go while "nature takes it's course"? That last paragraph might as well have been a direct quote from Ayn Rand.
Once the manufacturing base is completely wiped out and we no longer produce anything, all this faux moral outrage at the car companies (unlike the banks,who don't actually MAKE anything) will seem as ridiculous and naive as believing in Santa Claus. It will take longer than most workers can possibly survive to wait for those "much better car companies" that will surely show up in the middle of a depression.

[mtnsnake]

3. Sounds to me like you have little confidence in the American work force

to assume that they won't be able to ultimately be better off working for a more responsible NEW automaker, one that competes with their LESS responsible old one and makes everyone better off for the effort. What, you don't want any new companies to ever be able to compete with the Big 3?

[AndyA]

4. From what I've read, virtually all of the car makers in America are suffering right now.

It's foolish to think that in the midst of a severe recession, some new Phoenix auto maker will arise from the ashes to employ all the displaced workers.

It's not going to happen. And even if it did, most would lose their homes and everything else before they got new jobs. It would take many, many years before any jobs were created, even if a miracle new auto maker appeared on the scene.

[sufrommich]

5. How many new car companies do you think will be coming up

with thousands of people out of work? There will be no shiny new factories rising up in the middle of a depression.I have lots of confidence in the American worker,all of it realistic.They can't pull jobs out of their ass.Factories and jobs don't magically appear like a phoenix rising.

[mtnsnake]

6. Absolutely none if you and the Big 3 get your wish

This taxpayer-funded bailout might be good for a few months and make you feel all warm and fuzzy for the time being, but in the long run we need more responsible competition, competition that in the long run will benefit our country and its workers much more than what they're begging us to do now. Competition is what is needed, not handouts.

[sufrommich]

14. Competition may benefit "in the long run" but it will be a long

time coming in this country,in this situation.I guess by "warm and fuzzy" you mean a roof over your head with heat coming out of the vents.

"Competition is what is needed, not handouts." Seriously,Bush couldn't have said it better.

[mtnsnake]

19. WTF?

In your other post you told me that I sounded like Ayn Rand. Now, because you disagree with my premise that "Competition is what is needed, not handouts", you're comparing me to Bush?

Let me get this straight. Because I believe in competition, that's a bad thing? And I'm like Bush because of it? :wtf:

[mkultra]

11. maybe they could stop building rolling junk

Those workers would be better off retraining now.

[sufrommich]

17. What should they be retraining to do?

American cars have improved vastly in the last decade.So called progressives who use that excuse to throw hundreds of thousands of union workers to the wolves do it to explain away their own complicity and feel justified in doing so.

[mkultra]

21. They can retrain to do anything

I would prefer that the money be given directly to the workers for education..

600,000 times 10K is only 600million. Think of what they could do with 10K in retrain money.

[Kalyke]

37. Maybe if you had driven one since 1985, you'd know they aren't "rolling junk."

In 16 years, my Ford(s) have been in the shop ONCE for service outside of maintenance. ONCE between two cars.

My husband's foreign POS is in the shop once every three months.

Hmmm... who's got the "rolling junk?" Not I.

[Occam Bandage]

51. I bought a 2001 Saturn. It was rolling junk. nt

[mkultra]

57. lol, wow you are blind to reality

i have owned SEVERAL american cars and i drive a toyota right now. With 189K miles it has broken down exactly zero times. ALL statistics show that the japaneese cars are far superior in quality, mileage, and value. not some, ALL!


America cars aren't even in the same solar system and if your actually selling that bullshit then you are a complete retard. go read a book or do some research. your 2 vehicle empirical set is moronic.

[DiverDave]

7. Huh, meanwhile over at AIG...

how is not giving money to a JOB MAKER less better then giving it to the god damned banks that are using it for everything BUT what they where supposed to?
Oh, and not one god damned question for the fucking bankers...we know who got there's in that "bailout"...psst congress

This fucked up country sucks.

[mtnsnake]

8. The bankers shouldn't have gotten it either. n/t

[mkultra]

12. well, no one borrows money from car makers

They are not integral to our economy. They are just junk makers.

[Critters2]

43. Right. We don't need no damn manufacturing.

We can build our economy on industries that move capital around, rather than actually creating it. Yeah. That'll work.

Idiot.

[mkultra]

55. we dont need THESE manufacturers

if you cant see that these companies are destined for death, then your the idiot. Until they die, no new auto companies can rise. I agree that we need to actually make things again, just not these things.

[Thrill]

9. In my opinion. Its not about the automakers. Its the workers, I'm concerned about

[mkultra]

13. im not willing to pay the ransom.

i say let the kidnappers suck it and we might lose a couple of hostages.

[sufrommich]

18. "a couple of hostages"

What a putrid statement.

[mkultra]

20. its really just surrender

We have bailed them out before and they have continued to make crappy decisions regarding engineering and approach to the market. In the process they have treated the employees like crap and tried to sell us nationalism.


The workers are addicted their companies like heroin. The companies are sick at the top which means they will NEVER get well. Maybe its time we let these companies go. The workers will survive. If we want to send someone bailout money, lets send the workers severance.

[Kalyke]

38. We have never bailed them out.

We've loaned them money, which they repaid, with interest.

:eyes:

You're woefully misinformed. You really shouldn't post until you get some facts straight.

[mkultra]

53. thats called a bailout

the current bailout is about loans. so kiss my ass retard, your the one without the facts. go check out it and get on your knees. let me know if you have trouble finding the internet.

[Danger Mouse]

56. a couple of hostages? you call thousands of workers 'a couple of hostages'?

you're gross.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[trueblue2007]

23. oh really

you said


You said: They really need to learn like everyone else. Sometimes it's best to let nature take its course, especially in cases of greed and gross mismanagement.


You have NOT said you hope the best for our workers. Do you expect me to read your mind if you don't SAY what you THINK? I think not.

If you are hoping for the best for our workers, you should have said that in your post instead of


They really need to learn like everyone else. Sometimes it's best to let nature take its course, especially in cases of greed and gross mismanagement.

[mtnsnake]

26. The "they" I was referring to in that instance were the 3 CEO's...NOT THE WORKERS

The "they" I was referring to when I said "they need to learn like everyone else" was THEY: THE 3 CEO'S of the Big 3 automakers.

Good grief, and you were calling ME a moron? LMAO!

[quakerboy]

52. And "they"

will walk away with golden parachutes and spoils allready under their belts.

Where the workers will walk away with no job, nothing. Lucky to even get their last paycheck. Without even getting to pensioners.

Let them fall is not an adequate answer. Unless you have a plan to deal with the fallout. "in the longterm" is important. But if we cannot make it through the now, we will never get to the long term.

[mkultra]

16. its under a million jobs for all three.

[endarkenment]

22. Actually it is more like 6-7,000,000 jobs

as parts suppliers, dealers, and other assorted related industries fail with the liquidation of Detroit. And that would be the first wave.

[trueblue2007]

24. you said they: don't deserve squat ...

you said: Let them beg for money somewhere else instead of from the taxpayers.

you said: Sometimes it's best to let nature take its course, especially in cases of greed and gross mismanagement.



Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!! That sure doesn't sound like compassion for the workers or wanting our economy to prosper to me. MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people will lose jobs, insurance etc. Retired workers lose pensions.

[mtnsnake]

28. So far you're the only person on this thread to misinterpret who I meant by "they"

Looks to me like you have a short memory problem. Don't you realize that you arleady posted this same sentiment in another post upthread, the other one where you also completely botched who I meant by "they"?

Anyone who read the post knows I wasn't talking about the workers when I said they don't deserve squat or "they" need to learn a lesson.

Now that I see you've posted this twice in the same thread, but in different areas of it, I have to wonder what your real intentions are. Either that or you have issues with your memory.

But for your benefit only, let me set the record straight onc last time. I am FOR the workers and NOT FOR THE CEO'S of the Big 3 automakers. There, you have it in black and white, just in case you STILL didn't get it.

[nosillies]

25. Why are auto workers sacred cows?

I'm really looking for an honest answer to this.

My husband and I were out of work for ages. He got a job, I'm still looking. Our industry (hospitality) has been hard hit by this economy. There have been mass layoffs (union and non-union) that have decimated entire communities. The drop in business in the main industry has also caused serious repercussions for secondary industries (food service providers, laundry services, etc.)

I don't see where the heads of some of the largest companies in our industry have been begging for loans or bailouts. These mass layoffs don't make national headlines. Nobody gives a shit that so many people are out of work, getting foreclosed on, going hungry in Vegas and other markets.

Why are some workers "owed" jobs? What makes an out of work auto worker more important than an out of work butcher, or an out of work dry cleaner, or an out of work waitress? Why are auto workers and bankers more deserving of our tax money than any other American who's facing really tough times?

Sometimes sacred cows make the tastiest steaks.

[PassingFair]

35. Wow.

I must need a Q-Tip, because you sounded
just like the Republicans I know.

Manufacturing jobs ARE more important.
Because the MAKE things.

For national defense ALONE, we need to
have manufacturers up and running.

We can live without Las Vegas shows, but
we NEED cars.

[nosillies]

44. I didn't ask why manufacturing was an important industry

I get it, I agree with that. If manufacturing is so important for defense, then let's switch it all over to defense. Let's quit making crappy Yank Tanks, and instead switch over to a manufacturing component that is more beneficial to our country as a whole.

I want to know why certain types of workers are more deserving of a paycheck than other types of workers. THAT attitude is very Republican, IMO.

I'm just tired of this "Fuck you taxpayers, we are owed a job and a steady income" crap coming from some camps, not just the auto industry. It's not very endearing, and it doesn't tend to win converts.

[PassingFair]

48. Union jobs keep wages up across the board.

We need to fight for living wages....
unless we all want to keep sinking
lower and lower.

[GentryDixon]

40. Because the MSM doesn't tell the truth.

This so-called $80.00 an hour wage for the union workers is overstated. But it gets the attention of the sheep who do not care to become fully informed. When MSM ( read Republicans) talk this figure it includes all payroll taxes, health, medicare, social security, retirement, etc. The actual hourly wage is probably more in line with the national average for manufacturing. Ask Congress what their legacy costs are. I can tell you it is likely much higher than the UAW.

The impact on the economy does not just support the auto workers but all the ancillary support to the auto industry. I am not sure our economy can sustain such impact if we do not allow this line of credit to the automakers.

I am not an auto worker, nor have a ever been a union member. I am on a fixed income, have lost half of my very small investments, so every increase in costs impacts me greatly. I have been informed my 2009 prescription costs will increase double for a 90 days supply. I am concerned not just for me, but for this nation. My son and daughter-in-law both have very lucrative jobs, but they are waiting for the shoe to drop. It is not a very pretty time right now for any of us in this country.

[quakerboy]

54. An honest answer

My take: hospitality is a secondary industry. Without a primary industry (eg manufacturing) or an abundance of an exportable natural material(say, oil in Alaska), there will be no secondary industries.

So basically, it is more effecacious to bail out the primary industry. If you make it strong, it will make the secondary industry strong. Thus killing multiple birds with one stone.

Or, to look at in another way, it is the downturn in manufacturing, the exporting of those jobs to cheaper place that has caused the downturn in your industry. Let it die, and your industry will suffer even more. Find a way to renew its health, and your industry will see a return to vitality.

[Occam Bandage]

27. Why do auto workers deserve special consideration that the millions of other Americans losing jobs

do not get? Because they happen to have a powerful union that gives lots of money to Democrats?

[ShortnFiery]

30. As more and more jobs disappear, people will CHANGE their opinion about UNIONS.

Dammit, the workers have made concessions. FIRE all the top management and rebuild the company with LABOR having a seat at the table. :thumbsup:

[quiller4]

34. You don't seem to realize how many jobs outside of Detroit

depend on the big three. Start with some of the more obvious links like the companies that manufacture parts for auto makers. Their industry organization says that at least 75% of them would fail if GM did. Some of those are union jobs. Many aren't and they are spread throughout the country. Then consider all those plants around the country that are engine re-builders. These jobs, too, are spread throughout the land and they would go away if the big three went under.

I am not and have never been a member of the UAW but I strongly support immediate assistance to the automakers. I'd like to see Congress nationalize R & D to develop new propulsion systems including battery technologies, fuel cell, drive trains etc.,. Pay the automakers outright for research conducted thus far thus infusing cash into the companies that did not need to be paid back. The tax payers would own something of value and the country could launch and fund a Manhattan Project type effort to develop green propulsion systems.

There are national security as well as environmental reasons to make such a move.

[Kalyke]

39. Actually, we are concerned about those other jobs.

Put 3 to 5 million auto workers out of a job and their money doesn't get spent at the dry cleaners, the diner, the farmer's market, the beauty salon, etc.

It would domino into a lot more than auto workers.

[Occam Bandage]

41. So the Democrats care about you, so long as your job is dependent on major donors. nt

[sufrommich]

42. Major donors like Unions??

Damn those Democrats and their Union thug lackeys.

[brentspeak]

47. Yeah, really. The other poster got lost on his way to Free Republic

[Occam Bandage]

49. Yes. You do not see Dems leaping to give multibillion-dollar handouts

to industries that are not a major source of donations. You're kidding yourself if you think the Dems are pushing this out of kindness.

[brentspeak]

46. Not only is your anti-union sentiment becoming more clear, but your anti-Democrat agenda is too

[Occam Bandage]

50. That's a laugh. nt

[mkultra]

59. lol, your calling him an anti-Unionite. why does he hate Amurica

Your a republican inside poster. you just don't know it. I refuse to support the ridiculous management and engineering at these companies unless the top 4 tiers of management leave the company.

I would rather give money straight to the workers for retraining.

[Danger Mouse]

58. Put millions of auto workers out of a job and see the effect it has on our economy.

We all hang together, or we all hang separately.

[Loki]

29. I look at this from a different perspective.

My husband and I are small business owners, not related to the automobile field. Many of our patients and their respective employers will be greatly affected by lay-offs and job and insurance benefit losses, not to mention the states unemployment compensation budgets being overloaded with a lot of states possibly having to operate in the red with severe budget deficits. Our school district is hurting and just had a special election to pass bond issues that would keep our schools from cutting a majority of programs including all freshman sports activities and other non-academic related activities. When we talk about punishing the automobile industry by denying them the loans or bailouts whichever term you prefer to use, you are talking about families, workers, small business owners, school districts, states, unemployment benefits that will fail and a disaster that will cascade across this country and quite possibly give us another depression the likes our generation has never seen. I for one, am not willing to risk this for my family or for any one else's family. When you speak of agony at the taxpayers expense, I'm not sure you have an idea of what a depression could cost this country in human terms.

[ShortnFiery]

31. Yes, but giving banks and bloated CEOs and top managers "bail out" money to take and invest overseas

will make the Great Depression of the 1930s look like "a walk in the park."

With the Great Depression EVERYONE failed, to include Investment Bankers. However, now with the concept of a financial "One World Order" the CROOKS who receive these billions will take their wealth out of America, leaving the rest of us to "enjoy" an "Escape From New York" type of existence. :nuke:

[RollWithIt]

32. Sound a lot like the Republican Caucas... you kind of gloss over the 3 million jobs

But whatever, everyone has an opinion.

[TexasObserver]

33. We might be able to save the jobs, but only after massive reorganizations.

GM should be liquidated. Ditto Chrysler.

Ford can be reorganized. The other two are too far gone.

We need the manufacturing means in the hands of new ownership soon, and the sooner old management is gone, the better.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Danger Mouse]

60. I think the most important thing is to protect the workers.

The managers can go screw themselves. Cut off the rotten head to prevent further infection.