Reply from an Elector [on the natural born citizen brouhaha]

[Veruca Salt]

As I was wallowing in the schadenfreude I came across the following and thought it would be interesting to share. And if I'm beating a dead horse a bit too much, feel free to beat me back for it:

http://www.democratic-disaster.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0l3tnhh9jv8gu7itb8fn09v0v5&topic=1584.msg5821#msg5821

December 6, 2008

I have been asked by some concerned citizens as part of my Constitutional responsibility as a member of the College of Electors to review the evidence and make a determination regarding the natural born citizenship of Barack Hussein Obama II, or to join in a lawsuit against him in this matter. They have also forwarded a great deal of information to me which I have now reviewed.

After reading this information it is my opinion that none of it is conclusive in its own right. Most of it is speculation, rumor, or opinion rendered by "experts" or others whose qualifications and motives are suspect. However, given the volume of information put forth, the question of Mr. Obama's natural born citizenship was worth my understanding.

Since the United States Supreme Court has not rendered an opinion regarding the validity of the "natural born" status of a U.S. citizen or otherwise defined this term, I am therefore at liberty to make my own determination as a Presidential Elector. In my opinion a person is a natural born citizen if he or she is granted citizenship either at birth or at the age of majority by the United States government. And has never been required by the United States government to become "naturalized" or take the oath of citizenship. This seems to me to be a straightforward and logical understanding of the term. If you are presumed to be a U.S. citizen at your birth, and no government entity says otherwise, then in fact you are.

If someone emigrates from another country to the United States, and wishes to become a citizen, that person must enter a legal process culminating in taking the oath of citizenship and being "naturalized." This is why for example the current Governor of California cannot claim "natural born" status and become the President of the United States. He was born an Austrian. He emigrated here. He sought citizenship. And he was "naturalized" in a ceremony conducted by United States officials.

And there is also in the United States the use of Common Law as a part of our judicial system. Most of the time the law is codified by us, but in fact there are traditions and understandings which have not always been codified. My point here is that for example if you have a right of way from your property across another person's property to a road, that person after a specified period of time (dependent upon a particular state's statutes) cannot suddenly decide that you cannot cross his property anymore to get to the road. It is presumed after a certain period of time that this right of way is a right that you retain since he did not protest your crossing his property for years.

These are the two bases upon which I have rendered my decision. Even if some or all of the scenarios to which these concerned citizens have pointed regarding Mr. Obama's citizenship are true, two facts remain. The United States government has never required Mr. Obama to take the oath of citizenship, or even to render a decision at the age of majority between having U.S. citizenship and Kenyan citizenship, or U.S. citizenship and Indonesian citizenship. And he has lived here and been reared and educated as a U.S. citizen. It would seem to me that 47 years is a sufficient amount of time to have lived here as a U.S. citizen, with no government entity challenging it, for us and for Mr. Obama to presume that he is a natural born U.S. citizen.

Whether through clerical error, or bureaucratic malfeasance, or simply because it is actually true as was stated on October 31, 2008 by the Director of the Health Department for the State of Hawaii, that he was in fact born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961. Barack Hussein Obama II has been presumed by the United States government itself to be a natural born citizen of the United States for 47 years.

It issued him a Social Security number and a passport, obviously accepting his Hawaiian birth certificate without requiring a team of forensic scientists to examine it. He has lived in the United States as a U.S. citizen for his entire adult life. He has been not only a de facto U.S. citizen, he has been a de jure U.S. citizen. A citizenship conferred upon him by the United States government at his birth, and never questioned by any court, or executive branch official for 47 years. The United States government itself accepted his natural born citizenship when it issued him a passport without requiring him to take the oath of citizenship in a ceremony like all other immigrants to this country.

Therefore, as the Presidential Elector for the 6th Congressional District of North Carolina it is my Constitutional determination that Barack Hussein Obama II is a natural born citizen of the United States, and is qualified to become the 44th President of the United States of America. I will cast my Electoral College vote accordingly on December 15, 2008.

Sincerely,

Wayne Abraham

I wondered if I should be shocked they're mailing electors with this non-issue, then realized of course not. :spray:

[AspenRose]

1. Beautiful

"Whether through clerical error, or bureaucratic malfeasance, or simply because it is actually true as was stated on October 31, 2008 by the Director of the Health Department for the State of Hawaii, that he was in fact born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961. Barack Hussein Obama II has been presumed by the United States government itself to be a natural born citizen of the United States for 47 years.

It issued him a Social Security number and a passport, obviously accepting his Hawaiian birth certificate without requiring a team of forensic scientists to examine it. He has lived in the United States as a U.S. citizen for his entire adult life. He has been not only a de facto U.S. citizen, he has been a de jure U.S. citizen. A citizenship conferred upon him by the United States government at his birth, and never questioned by any court, or executive branch official for 47 years. The United States government itself accepted his natural born citizenship when it issued him a passport without requiring him to take the oath of citizenship in a ceremony like all other immigrants to this country.

Therefore, as the Presidential Elector for the 6th Congressional District of North Carolina it is my Constitutional determination that Barack Hussein Obama II is a natural born citizen of the United States, and is qualified to become the 44th President of the United States of America. I will cast my Electoral College vote accordingly on December 15, 2008."

:rofl:

[Veruca Salt]

23. I know! And probably my favorite part of it:

"It issued him a Social Security number and a passport, obviously accepting his Hawaiian birth certificate without requiring a team of forensic scientists to examine it."

I read that sentence as snark and exasperation, I can just picture the elector writing that! I lol'd and lol'd! :rofl:

[AspenRose]

34. "...or simply because it is actually TRUE...."

:rofl: Lots of good snarky gems in there :thumbsup:

[Perky]

2. opps I misread

:shrug:

[elleng]

4. Nope.

NO DOUBT about where he was actually born, and that it wasn't here.

[snowbear]

11. WTF?

[elleng]

13. Ahnold, that is;

comment to which I responded has moved/changed/been edited.

[jberryhill]

5. Uhmmm.... Did you read it?

The letter specifically addresses Arnold Schwarzenegger. He has never been believed or presumed to have been born a US citizen, and was in fact naturalized as one.

What part of the letter do you believe supports any other conclusion about Arnold Schwarzenegger?

[Trajan]

7. The article clearly delineates the difference between Obama and Arnold ...

Therefore it would be unfounded to assume this based on a reading of this statement .... There is no downside ....

[prostock69]

18. It happens. I've done it. :)

[jwirr]

3. Mr Abraham is either a constitutional lawyer or a very smart man. Thank you.

[elleng]

6. Edifying.

Thanks

[mwei924]

8. I would've been far less polite had it been my reply.

More like "Get a life you moron" in 48 point font.

[Veruca Salt]

24. LOL! Mine too!

Though, maybe you'd have to use the word 'moran' for them to understand you. :rofl:

[Merlot]

9. Really well written. I hope the SC writes something this well

maybe they should just co-op this piece.

[Veruca Salt]

21. I thought so too, it's laid out beautifully and

is very easy to understand.

[Diamonique]

28. They won't.

They haven't been requested to look into Obama's citizenship. The case before the SC isn't about that.

Plus, they're not gonna take the case anyway.

[regnaD kciN]

31. They won't need to...

...if all they do is refuse cert. The only way they would have to issue a ruling on the subject is if they accepted the case for review, which it appears they have not done.

[liberalmuse]

10. Good argument.

I liked it when I saw it in 'Miracle on 34th Street', and I like it now.

[ikojo]

12. I was of the understanding that if one of your

parents was American REGARDLESS of where you were born, you are AMERICAN!!!I suspect a fair number of Americans may have given birth in foreign hospitals over the years...their kids are still US citizens, right?

[Vattel]

16. that is what the founders seemed to think

and practice in the United States for two centuries conforms to that understanding.

[crispini]

14. I love it. They're bothering the Electors. I KNEW this would happen!

In fact, I predicted it yesterday! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7954932&mesg_id=7955897

[PatGund]

22. They've been doing it for a couple weeks now.

Berg said on 3 November that if Obama won, his next tactic would be going after the electoral college. Then around 20 November, anti-Semite Andy Martin said the next tactic should be going after the electors. The various PUMA and Freeper sites stirring this up are passing around lists of the electors and spamming them in both email and snail mail.

All it's doing is pissing the electors off.

[PatGund]

32. and here's the list they're using

http://saveourrights.wikia.com/wiki/Electors_%282008%29

I wish I could send everyone on that list a dozen chocolate chip cookies - or a bottle of their tipple of choice - to say thank you for putting up with these idiots blatherings and doing the right thing

[eshfemme]

15. This explanation fucking OWNED those rwingnut motherfuckers

I love Wayne Abraham for this succinct and articulate reply to an issue that most likely didn't deserve such erudition.

[Veruca Salt]

29. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you!

:thumbsup:

[Gman]

17. This guy's thinking entirely too much

fortunately he arrived at the correct decision. But the only thing he really needs to do is just vote for Obama, period stop. Don't ask questions, don't think, just do it.

[demwing]

58. Never tell people not to think!

It's what separates the red from the blue ;)

[Undercurrent]

19. Glad Mr Abraham went to the effort to lay this out

in a simple, and clear manner. Of course it won't make any difference to the freeptoids. They'll just assume Abraham is another cog in the huge, worldwide conspiracy.

[Veruca Salt]

26. You made me go back to where I had originally found this

and see what they're saying; Please enter the decontaminate chamber after returning and they've got another crazy angle now:

Wonder how Wayne feels about the questions beginning to arise overseas. Pravda has already raised the question about the validity of treaties and agreements signed by Obama.

What happens when some of our soldiers are seized and accused of unlawfully operating under the orders of an illegitimate leader?

Seems to me that Zero needs to get over his arrogance and prove to the USA and the world that he will be legitimate leader. Or is his pride more important than global stability?

5 posted on Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:25:22 PM by cripplecreek

:crazy: My sides hurt from all the funny!

[Window]

65. These mofos are truly certifiable.

[PatGund]

20. Shouldn't be surprised at all....

It's one of the tactics they're using. And claiming the electors are "Traitors" if they cast their votes for Obama due to his "lack of citizenship" or "non-natural born citizen"

There's actually a couple of the state lawsuits that are being used to get the list of electors and their addresses, as well as lawsuits to keep state SoS' from certifying the electors.

Some of the people involved in the various state lawsuits are electors for either Alan Keyes or, in the case of a new one in California (Lightfoot v. Bowen) an elector for Keyes and another one for Ron Paul.

[PatGund]

25. K, R, and to the Greatest with you!

[Hissyspit]

27. He forgot to address the issue that...

the people who are bringing this shit up are all racist hypocritical dumbfucks.

[unblock]

30. the "at the age of majority" part is a bit of a stretch.

not that it really pertains to obama, though it does pertain to my mother, who was born in austria, to austrian parents, and brought to this country at the age of three. she's always thought that she could never become president because of it.

the term "natural-born citizen" does not seem to intuitively apply to her, since the united states had nothing to do with her or her parents or anything at the time and location of her birth. of course, by the time she reached the "age of majority", she had been in this coutry many years, with very few, recollections of any other country.

frankly, i do think that the founders did NOT want anyone "brought over" to the united states to become president, and much as i think my mother would be great at the job, i think she fits the category that the founders wanted to prevent from ever gaining that post.

[localroger]

35. Age of Majority

This is important because Obama had parents of different nationalities. Traditionally, when that happens the parents either decide which nation you're a citizen of, or leave it open. Obama's mother didn't leave it open; she raised him in America, as an American, and that's the end of the story. HOWEVER...

Obama's parents might have left it open, treating him as both American and Kenyan, or as one for some purposes and the other for others. In such an ambiguous case the individual decides himself upon reaching the age of majority, and AFAIK would be considered a natural born citizen if he chose US citizenship at that point. However, in Obama's case there IS NO such ambiguity, as neither he nor his mother have ever claimed any of the privileges of Kenyan citizenship for him.

[Bad Thoughts]

38. Retroactive Citizenship

I don't know about US law, but in France, for instance, a child born in France of immigrants receives status of being a natural born citizen after their parents are given citizenship or at the age of majority, whichever comes last. In essence, it's calling them a life long citizen after eighteen years of ambiguity.

[localroger]

48. Here, it's immediate

In the US, you're a citizen the minute you're born on US soil. However, you might also have a claim to citizenship in your parents' country, and the US doesn't recognize dual citizenship. Generally no action is needed in the US to claim citizenship if you were actually born here, but if you were born and raised elsewhere you might have to clarify the situation. It is also quite possible to maintain dual citizenship, but in order to keep your US status you can't participate in the political process of any other country (vote, run for office, etc.) Some other countries are more permissive and will let you keep their citizenship while participating in US politics, though.

[Foolacious]

60. The US does, in fact, allow dual citizenship.

And such dual citizens are not forsworn from participating in the political processes of the other country. I am such a dual citizen, that's how I know. Admittedly, there is vague verbiage on the issue in various government instruments that might lead one to conclude otherwise, but I'm in receipt of a letter from the US State Department making it utterly clear that taking Canadian citizenship did not put my US citizenship at risk in any way whatsoever.

Prior to 1977, the situation was quite different. Many people's understanding of the citizenship laws dates from that time.

[localroger]

67. Interesting

Thanks for the clarification, my information is indeed dated.

[Onlooker]

33. Thanks for posting

A really well reasoned argument that deserves wider distribution.

[Hokie]

36. One thing Mr. Abaraham did not mention is that he is bound by law

North Carolina is one of many states that prevent an shenanigans from being perpetrated by electors by requiring by law that they vote for the candidate certified as the winner in that state. As a matter of fact 240 of Obama's electoral votes are from states with similar laws. Therefore, over 3/4 of the pledged electors from states where they are not bound by law would have to be swayed. To say that isn't going to happen is stating the obvious. Of course, the loony birds who are pushing bogus issue this would wish electors to ignore their own laws.

They have a prayer forum at Democratic Disaster. What they should be praying for is for this country to unite being our new intelligent leader, PE Obama, to help him fix the massive problems that George Bush has left him. Somehow, I doubt that is the subject of their prayers.

[crispini]

37. I spent some time over there. Wow, they're really grasping at straws.

They're going to stay convinced that Obama is some kind of sleeper agent, for sure. They're definitely bitter-ending. :eyes:

[JoePhilly]

39. The site linked to this is hilarious.

These people are totally off the rails.

(edit: added the following from the top of their site) ...

"Now, we need $20,000 to hire the Forensic Scientists. This is needed by Monday, Dec 1, 2008. Without this, our entire effort will be over."

[Hokie]

40. Look at the latest post in the prayer forum

It will deleted shortly so look quickly. Just sayin'.

[JoePhilly]

41. Never_Forget??

hahahaha ... must be!!

nice.

[BumRushDaShow]

42. OMG

That's going to be outta there soon! :rofl:

[janx]

50. OK, which one of you rascals posted

"I am all ready to do what needs to be done, I jsut need to know what exactly do I pray for? "


:rofl:

[jberryhill]

53. Not me

I'm sticking with "The Iranians will destroy this country by declaring everyone born in the US an Iranian citizen, thereby disabling us from electing a natural born citizen as president."

[janx]

55. Did you post that somewhere?

I was referring to a post in the prayer forum:

"I am all ready to do what needs to be done, I jsut need to know what exactly do I pray for?

Do I pray for the Supreme Court to reverse the election and declare John McCain the winner?

Do I pray for a new election where Obama is banned from running?

Do I pray the Democrats be banned from a new election as judicial punishment for thier corruption?

Do I pray Obama be arrested and prosecuted for fraud?

Do I pray that Obama is not sworn in as President and instead Joe Biden takes over?

Do I pray that people realize the Democratic Party stole this election and should be banned from politics forever?

Do I pray that America come to its senses and admit the US is a REPUBLICAN nation, that the REPUBLICANS are the only party we can trust to protect us, and that the REPUBLICANS are entitled to govern and letting the Democrats governs means they stole power?

Do I pray that George Bush refuse to leave the White House and stay in office after Jan. 2009 until American law is upheld and that he protect us from the Democrats?

God wants our prayers to be specific; how can we expect to get what we want if we don't specifically pray for it???"

:rofl:

[Hokie]

56. Seems to have been scrubbed..

[Veruca Salt]

46. ...

:spray: :rofl:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

43. From what I have gathered, from a bit of research, the people who are claiming

that Obama isn't a natural born citizen are sexist and living in the 17th century.

The reason why natural born citizen wasn't clarified in the Constitution is because it was based, as the person above states, on British Common Law, which was defined in the 1600s. If a father of child was a citizen of Great Britain, the child would automatically be a citizen, no matter where in the world that child was born. FATHER.. it didn't matter back in the 1600s about the mother's citizenship. That is why those nut jobs are claiming that if Obama's Father was a British citizen, it doesn't matter a hill of beans that his mother was born and grew up in Kansas.

[jberryhill]

45. Oh it's more than that

They want the Supreme Court to apply British law to the question of Barack Obama's citizenship at birth, and they haven't quite figured out that the Supreme Court is a US court.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

47. But that's the rub. As I said Natural Born Citizen was never defined because it was

already defined by British Common Law and I guess the framers of the Constitution didn't feel it necessary to repeat what that meant. It all boils down to Intent. Many Supreme Court Justices have gone to the founding fathers' papers to seek what their Intent was.

They have to throw it out because in our day and age, Mothers have legal standing which they didn't in the 1600's (Britain) and late 1700's (US).

[jberryhill]

49. Irrelevant

...and rendered irrelevant not least by the 14th Amendment.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

51. And that's why I said they had to throw it out!

[jberryhill]

52. Oh

I thought your point was that it was sexist - which it is.

Better still, one of the reasons we fought the War of 1812 was that Britain kept abducting American sailors, claiming them to be British for similar reasons as set forth in the Donofrio suit.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

54. That's interesting about the American sailors. Thanks for sharing that with me. As to my point!

I was just pointing out that the plaintiff in the case was using a sexist argument by only centering on Obama's father's citizenship, implying that his mother being an American born and raised, didn't have standing in Obama's citizenship. That is of course antiquated and more importantly, unConstitutional. This case has to be thrown out.

[jberryhill]

57. Pretty amusing though

The freeps want to re-fight the War of 1812, and on the British side no less.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. LOL! The rabid hate of the wrongwing loonies have no boundaries whatsoever,

even if they make themselves like blithering idiots.

[Jim Lane]

61. Their theory is misguided but not sexist

As I understand Donofrio's argument, it doesn't say that the child's father's citizenship matters but the mother's is irrelevant. Rather, the argument is that, if a child born in the United States is, as of his or her birth, entitled to citizenship in some foreign country as well as citizenship in the U.S., then the child is a U.S. citizen but not a natural-born U.S. citizen. From that premise, Donofrio focuses on Obama's father because his citizenship gave Obama the right to claim U.K. (later Kenyan) citizenship. If Obama had been born to an American father and a foreign-national mother whose home country had such a law, then Donofrio would also challenge his eligibility.

The real answer to Donofrio's argument is that his narrow construal of "natural-born citizen" is wholly unsupported by the Constitution, caselaw, or logic. Generally speaking, people are U.S. citizens either by birth or by naturalization. Donofrio wants the court to hold that there are actually three categories. People like Obama (born in the U.S. but entitled to another citizenship at birth) are clearly U.S. citizens by birth -- the Fourteenth Amendment so provides. Donofrio says there's a third category, natural-born citizen, to which some U.S. citizens by birth don't belong.

Some of the Freepers have pointed out that, under Donofrio's theory, RW darling Bobby Jindal (born in Louisiana to citizens of India) would be ineligible to be President. This is a serious issue over there, given that "Palin/Jindal 2012" is a rallying cry. (No, I'm not kidding.)

Edited to add: In reading further on this subject, I came upon a blog post that follows the pattern you describe. It reads:

A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father. (Quoted , at the same anti-Obama website linked to in the OP in this thread)

Therefore, I stand partially corrected. I still believe that Donofrio himself is making a nonsexist argument, but the "Obama truther" camp does indeed include some sexists as well.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. Thanks for the clarification. Then according to this interpretation, all Jews are disqualified

from becoming President of the United States. As A Jew, I'm automatically able to claim Israeli citizenship if I wished to.

About that Palin/Jindal rallying cry, I've heard it already and the thought of it totally chills me.

[Jim Lane]

63. Not just Jews, but many other people

In fact, the Castro government could declare that anyone with Cuban ancestry is a Cuban citizen at birth. That would disqualify all the anti-Castroites in the Cuban exile community from ever being President, even those born (now or subsequently) in the United States. It wouldn't surprise me if quite a few of those people are enthusiastically in favor of this challenge to Obama's election, so it would be poetic justice if Castro did this.

As a side note, under the Donofrio theory the eligibility of a U.S.-born child to be President depends on foreign law. The theory is supported by people who've denounced the U.S. Supreme Court for ever paying attention to foreign law.

[jberryhill]

66. Eggggzactly - to reach the result they want

The Supreme Court has to apply the law of some other country in order to get there.

An enemy country could simply declare all people born in the US to be citizens of that country, and we would be unable to elect a president.

They are that dumb.

[Vinca]

44. After following the link to the freeper discussion, all I can say is

I hope the drug companies are smart enough to advertise on that site.

[Window]

64. Well done Mr. Abraham. Thanks for posting this Veruca. K/R.

:kick: