Did we HAVE to do the auto loan while Lil' Dubbikins and the lame duck Congress were STILL there?

[Ken Burch]

Why couldn't we have taken it up on January 3rd(when the NEW Congress gets sworn in) and then have Obama sigh a decent, progressive version of it on January 20th, perhaps doing some sort of a micro-loan just to tide things through 'til then? Why did it have to be NOW and on our Outgoing Boy Emperor's terms?

And is this the last thing Dubbikins gets to get his hands on before he leaves, or does he still get other stuff to mess with?

[Skink]

1. We need a better congress so this bridge loan should do.

[DontTreadOnMe]

2. GM stated they will be in default by end of December 2008

so... waiting until January might be a little late for a solution.

But can I trust the word of GM's CEO... hell no.

[Ken Burch]

3. We could've given them JUST ENOUGH to get through December.

Y'know, the way they never did that for all the people they always laid off at Christmas.

[BeatleBoot]

5. Yeah, what a bunch of pricks

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-179112586.html

[Ken Burch]

9. OK, so they did feel-good charitable contributions.

That never helped the people they screwed over in Flint or the other towns.

It was animal shelters and stuff like that.

[BeatleBoot]

16. Yep, that's all they did.

It was just pets or meat.

I know the whole diatribe.

Trust me, save the bandwidth.

[Ken Burch]

18. Look, it's one thing to want the auto industry saved.

You don't need to exempt management from all criticism to do that.

Nothing I've said is going to hurt the autoworkers. It's the arrogance of the bosses that's the problem, combined with the arrogance of the system.

Management is not your friend, nor your ally.

[BeatleBoot]

4. It's a LOAN - not a Bailout

What don't you understand about a LOAN?

They will pay it back just like Lee Iaccoca did back in '79.

And most likely they will pay it back ahead of time - just like '79.

If I hear a "BAILOUT" one more time, I am going to scream.

[ChazII]

6. Thank you for your common sense.

Perhaps we can scream together.....:evilgrin:

[BeatleBoot]

7. Too many "Auto Experts" who never worked in the Industry on here

that think they know what is going on and do not.

[Ken Burch]

8. You seem to trust the Big 3 more than anyone else here.

Given that they've managed their businesses in such a way as to make these, er, loans necessary, why would you have any confidence that they won't fleece us all?

It's been clear for decades that the auto industry needs to make different types of vehicles than the ones they make now. Also, while fuel prices are still relatively high, it's also clear that we need to get these companies into manufacturing things like high-speed trains and other mass transit vehicles. Yet this loan does nothing to cause either of those things to happen. The Big 3, from what I can see, are taking this as a victory for the status quo (and a mandate to keep on screwing the workers at their plants).

[BeatleBoot]

10. You are Dead Wrong

It is obvious you do not understand the industry, never worked in it, and do not understand the ramifications of your statements.

They have NOT managed themselves into the mess that they are facing. Economic forces such as Raw Material costs and the recent freeze in the credit markets have caused the downturn they are facing today.

All along they have followed demand. These guys do not sneeze unless demand from the consumer tells them to.

High gas prices hampered their sales somewhat, but they wouldn't be in Washington D.C. if that is all that they were facing.

[Ken Burch]

11. They totally ignored what the public was demanding in the early '70s

That's why the public switched to German and Japanese vehicles at the time. The public wanted fuel efficient vehicles at a reasonable price, and the Big 3 kept on making land yachts. Same thing now with their insistence on making SUV's and on not even trying to make those SUV's safe.

Instead of that, they just insist on bleeding the workers on the line dryer and dryer and getting help for continuing to maintain the status quo.

Why are you backing management when they've at least helped cause this by refusing to change?

You might at least consider standing with the workers and the consumers instead.

[BeatleBoot]

12. I am Standing With the

UAW

How about you?

[Ken Burch]

13. I'm with the UAW. I'm NOT with management.

The UAW shouldn't have had to give anything else back. It wasn't THEIR fault that the Big 3 are tanking.

They should occupy the plants and run them themselves. That would have to be an improvement over what management is doing.

[BeatleBoot]

14. Facing Bankruptcy, I am with BOTH with regards to the LOAN

I worked for a Tier 1 Supplier that went bankrupt (Chapter 11 then 7).

I lived it.

I understand what will happen if one of the Big 3 go bankrupt, and I do not wish that on anyone nor any city nor any household.

[Ken Burch]

15. I want the auto workers to be saved.

I'm no Grinch, and as a member of the ILWU, no one can call me antiworker.

I was just saying that I wish this could've been done on workers' and people's, rather than simply doing what management wanted.

That's why I'd have rather seen something done to just tide them through 'til January, then get a REAL plan in place.

[BeatleBoot]

17. If you want them saved

then quit fucking calling it a Bailout.

Do the UAW, its members, and the company some fucking justice and quit talking about "Bailout's" like Senator Shelby (AL - R) does.

In my mind, if you call this a bailout, then you are no better than Senator Shelby - Republican from Alabama.

It's a fucking LOAN. But, I REPEAT MYSELF FROM THE ORIGINAL POST!

[Ken Burch]

19. OK...OK...I've removed the "b word". Chill.

:rolleyes:

It's not like what I call it in a message board is going to make that much difference.

[Ken Burch]

21. OK, I changed it.

Still, the ruling class in this country isn't really likely to repay anything they've been given this fall.

My issue wasn't with the UAW, it was with management insisting that the UAW give even more up(when they shouldn't have had to give up anything else, and since they basically don't have anything anymore to give anyway) and with management also insisting in putting this through will Bush and the outgoing Congress are still there, so that the whole thing was on corporate power's terms.

[kirby]

32. It is a BAILOUT, not a loan.

A loan is something that is made to someone who is creditworthy when there is a reasonable expectation of repayment. This will just be throwing more money at a broken company. Several economists, including some who testified on Friday said the Big 3 would be back asking for more money in 6 months.

Only Ford is likely to be able to repay.

All 3 companies combined are worth less than what they are asking to borrow!

[BeatleBoot]

37. Nobel Prize winning Economist, Paul Krugman says give them the loan

Or pay the consequences in 6 to 12 months.

You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

Anyone who agrees with Senator Shelby (R) from Alabama must have a screw loose.


Or two.

[islandmkl]

20. why should we 'underwrite' the american auto industry??

i mean, just because the japanese and germans and koreans will underwrite their auto industries...how does that affect us?

goddam morons think that 1/10 of american industry can just be tossed aside because of top management's poor direction and performance...when the real current problem is cash only...

maybe you should peruse the 500 or so pages here: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhtsa_static_file_downloader.jsp?file=/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Articles/Associated%20Files/Oct_2007_CAFE_Summary.pdf (thanks to a previous DU'er) and see how many vehicles the u.s.a. produces compared to the rest of the world...see how many foreign cars are actually sold in america...

it's like a bunch of 'it's the big-3 fault and they must suffer' people are chanting 'hondas and toyotas are better and that's why everyone is buying them'...

check the numbers...

[BeatleBoot]

22. Dig the Post - Dig The Pooch!

Amen!

Check the numbers.

Why do Republicans Hate American Workers?

[Ken Burch]

23. Again, I'm not against saving the jobs of the autoworkers.

It was about not wanting it to be done on Republican and corporate terms.

Done this way, management will take it as a mandate to stay with the status quo forever, and to demand even MORE concessions from the UAW next time(that is, if the UAW is still even a union after what it just gave back).

I hope that, despite this, sometime soon the auto industry can be reconstructed to benefit workers, consumers and the country. I'm not optimistic, but it does need to happen.

[BeatleBoot]

24. Did you know that General Motors Chief Financial Officer

Endorsed both Kerry and Obama?

[islandmkl]

25. every dollar to the worker is a dollar from the top...

the cost-to-price of the cars and trucks has nothing to do with the end number...

the f***ers taking billions out of the corps (at the top) always blame the workers for the costs...

[democrattotheend]

26. I think Obama would rather Bush do it

Because he knows it's unpopular even though it's necessary. Plus, GM might not have enough cash to make it to inauguration day. I was getting a little worried because Obama seemed to be hedging on it, but I felt better when I heard him say the other day that bankruptcy is not an option. A lot of Republicans want the Big Three to go into bankruptcy because it would weaken the union. When Obama said bankruptcy was not an option I felt better because it made me realize that he will not let them break the union if the Big Three make it to inauguration day. But that's not a given, and I think the reason Obama sounded like he was hedging is because he'd rather this happen before he takes office so he can hit the ground running with his stimulus plan and not have to do something unpopular as one of his first acts as president.

[BeatleBoot]

28. Who says it's "unpopular"

Because the majority of Americans are for the LOAN.

[democrattotheend]

30. On CNN, they said that 61% of Americans oppose it

[kirby]

33. 55% opposed the financial industry bailout... n/t

[kirby]

34. Not true...

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/04/cnn-poll-61-of-americans-oppose-automaker-bailout/

[tonycinla]

35. Business

A business has to make a profit to be successful and stay in business.If we loan them the money then we should insist that they figure out how the auto plants and companies in TN.,Al.,SC.,and KY.are making a profit and follow their example as much as humanly possible.This money belongs to the citizens of this country and should be carefully used.If they go bankrupt we won"t get our money back.So the loan should come with "strings".

[BeatleBoot]

36. But AIG, Lehmen Bros.gets a free ride over a Trillion dollar Giveaway

No questions asked.

That's cool with you, numbnuts?

[jwirr]

27. The deal I heard about on either KO or Rachel was to allow them to

use money from a bill already passed to encourage them to build higher mileage cars. They would be able to get that and use it for this crisis until after PE Obama is in and then he would work out the final agreements. This first has already been appropriated. Any further would be a loan.

[RollWithIt]

29. That's like saying, who cares that thousands per week are already being laid off, lets wait 2 Mths

Crisis.

[kirby]

31. Is this a rhetorical question?

I'm pretty sure you know the answer to this one.