A Proposal for a New Single Payer Fee For Service Issue Advocacy and Activism Forum

[John Q. Citizen]

If you would like a forum for exchanging information about Single Payer initiatives, activism, and ideas, please post here.

Thanks

[cbayer]

1. I would be interested in such a forum.

Thanks for suggesting it.

[patrice]

2. I would visit such a forum to educate myself about Single Payer. nt

[Cleita]

3. I would be interested and would participate. n/t

[EFerrari]

4. Here!

:kick:

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Great idea. There is a lot to learn, and I would like to be able to have info

to counter all the arguments against single payer health care.

[leftstreet]

6. K&R

[slipslidingaway]

7. A neighbor can share their food, but not their health insurance... n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Are you interested in the creation of a single payer forum? If so please post that you are.

We need ten individuals with donar stars to post their interest in such a forum to get one created, according to DU rules.

[slipslidingaway]

14. Yes, Yes, Yes and will this be forum where the threads can

be recommended? If not we'll be talking to ourselves :)

[John Q. Citizen]

15. I hope so. Let me see what I can find out.

[slipslidingaway]

16. Thanks, I think it is important :) n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

18. After reading a little and thinking about it it seems to me that we might want a topix

forum as well as what's called a protected group.

I would prefer to have a forum where people who are opposed to single payer can come and learn perhaps. ANd visa versa.

That might be called the great health care debate.

In some ways what we need is both a protected as well as a general topix style group for Single payer.

And proponents of hybrid patchwork systems can have there own protected group as well if they like. And we can debate the merits of the different plans in a topics forum much like we do now in general discussion.

OK. What we need first is a protected group to organize to get a general health care reform Topix group.

The Obama campaign is strongly pushing the issue of a national dialog on health care reform. I think we should ask DU to help on this topic as well as it has on other topix, like energy and environment.

The "health" topic currently is often mostly devoted to remedies, research, and such and not to the topic of systematic reform.

[slipslidingaway]

19. Honestly I've not read about the different kinds of groups....

so I guess the protected group is one which cannot be recommended and then the Topix forum where you can...sounds good to me and I think now is the time to push for single payer HC.

Thanks for starting the thread :)

[nxylas]

9. This is single-payer healthcare, right?

Sorry for such an obvious question, but you don't actually use the word "healthcare", and I dislike ambiguity. And yes, I would be interested in a forum advocating for single-payer healthcare. I'm a British expat and I miss the National Health Service. For all its faults, at least nobody in Britain ever has to worry about whether they can afford to see a doctor.

[John Q. Citizen]

10. Yes, Thanks for the feed back . My title could have been clearer. Single Payer Health Care reform

is the issue.

Thanks for speaking up!

[John Q. Citizen]

11. Some info on starting a new Single Payer Health Care advocacy forum here at DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=206x10


As you can see we need ten folks to recommend and we need a mission statement. I would say my mission in proposing this new forum is to:

1.Promote education about single payer fee for service health insurance as the best and most pragmatic solution to our health care crisis.

2. Promote the adoption of a universal single payer fee for service health insurance reform.


Anybody have any feed back on a mission statement? I strongly counsel short and sweat.

******************************************************************************************************************
Here's the rules on new forum creation from the link.


One of the best things about DU Groups is that members have the ability to suggest new groups to the Administrators of Democratic Underground. If you wish to suggest a group, please follow this procedure:

1. Start one discussion thread in the forum of your choice to tell people about your idea for a DU Group.

2. In that thread, you must get responses from at least ten DU members who agree to be active participants in the suggested DU Group. All ten members to respond must have donor stars.

3. In that thread, members must agree on a proposed mission statement for the DU Group.

4. When enough members have signed on to join the group and have agreed on a proposed mission statement, one member must officially suggest the DU Group to a DU Administrator (Skinner, EarlG, or Elad), by sending an email. Please be sure to include a link to the thread where members have discussed the proposed Group.

5. The Administrators will consider the request and make a decision. The Administrators will either 1) Accept the Group as it is proposed, 2) Deny the Group outright, or 3) Ask for changes to the Group or its mission statement which would be necessary for its approval.

6. Once the suggested Group has been accepted by the Administrators, the Administrators will create a new DU Group in the "DU Groups" Category forum, and pin the mission statement of that Group to the top of that Group's forum.

If you are considering a DU Group on a controversial topic, the Administrators would appreciate if you contacted us before collecting your ten members, so we may discuss any sensitive issues. This courtesy will increase the chance that your Group is approved. Also, please be aware that proposed Groups that are redundant with existing DU Forums are unlikely to be approved.

If you have any questions, please contact a forum Administrator.

Skinner
EarlG
Elad

[slipslidingaway]

22. I agree with your mission statement. n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

30. Discuss the Mission Statement here.

We need to discuss the mission statement according to DU rules for getting a group or a forum.

I've revised the original. Feedback?






1.Promote education about single payer fee for service health insurance. to promote understanding of how it works to lower costs to everyone and to provide full access to quality care for everyone. How it allows free choice of care providers.

2. Promote the adoption of a universal single payer fee for service health insurance reform in the US(and anywhere else that could benefit)

3. Support other's efforts to educate, organize, and enact a single payer fee for service health insurance system. And to get support for our efforts.

4. To promote knowledge of, discussion of, and contemplation of issue politics as seen through the lens of health care reform.

5. Promote discussion and understanding of all health reform issues.

our Motto? "You can't always get what you want..."

[nxylas]

36. The motto at the end seems a bit of a downer

I'd drop it, or replace it with something a little more, um, inspirational.

[leftstreet]

38. I agree about the motto

It's unnecessary.

[John Q. Citizen]

39. it wasn't meant to be taken as a real motto, more of as a joke. Also, I'd be glad to get

what I need over what I want, if you know what I mean.

i might want a private room with a view and 3 full time nurses, but if i can just see a doctor when I'm sick and need to, that would be good.

It won't be anywhere besides my ill-advised use of it in the post. Heh heh...oops.

[EFerrari]

40. Maybe #3 should be "enact and protect". According to a prof from the

U of Uppsala, Sweden's system is under attack both from the right wing and from incoming predator insurance companies.

In fact, if we get our forum, it would be cool if he could "talk" to us at some point. His name is Brian Palmer. He's an American that was driven out of Harvard for pissing off Larry Summers. His students had the temerity to ask Larry about the place of legacy admissions in his little meritocracy:

AMY GOODMAN: Finally, as people can hear from your accent, you are an American, a citizen who is now a Swedish citizen. You taught at Harvard and have an interesting story to tell about someone who’s become a significant national figure now, Larry Summers, who is the former president of Harvard. In your class in 2004, you invited him to your class to address the class and to answer questions from the students. Tell us what class you taught. This was the most popular class at Harvard, elective class at Harvard. You had 600 students in the class. You won the—was it the Livingston Prize?

BRIAN PALMER: Levinson.

AMY GOODMAN: Levinson Prize for teaching. But you ended up having to leave in 2004, shortly after your encounter with Larry Summers—

BRIAN PALMER: Right.

AMY GOODMAN: —who’s now going to become, if—the chief economic adviser to Barack Obama.

BRIAN PALMER: Larry Summers was then Harvard’s president, and the 600 students and I invited him to be interviewed by us. And I think that in the environments in which he traveled, he wasn’t—

AMY GOODMAN: The name of your class?

BRIAN PALMER: Personal choice and global transformation—that he wasn’t used to getting very probing questions. For example, one student asked President Summers, “As a champion of meritocracy, how can you defend Harvard’s policies of giving an edge in admissions to the children of alumni?” And he became so irritated by these questions that he really fell into quite a bad mood and began to declare to the class that my ideas were “silly,” as he put it. And this was the souring of our relationship.

AMY GOODMAN: Your contract was not renewed?

BRIAN PALMER: No, no.

AMY GOODMAN: Despite the fact that you had the most popular elective class at Harvard.

BRIAN PALMER: Yeah.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/9/bush_rove_tied_to_effort_to

:hi:

[John Q. Citizen]

48. After it's enacted we can modify our mission!

Thanks for the interesting Summers story. Elites often are at a loss to explain class privilege.

[harun]

41. My 2 cents

* Promote the elimination or nationalization of for-profit Health Insurers.

[Sunnyshine]

43. I agree with the statement for most part, but maybe we could include the following:

I think giving a clear definition of what Single Payer means should be included in some way.

According to the National Library of Medicine's Medical Subject Headings (MeSH) thesaurus,
a "Single-Payer System" is:

An approach to health care financing with only one source of money for paying health care providers. The scope may be national (the Canadian System), state-wide, or community-based. The payer may be a governmental unit or other entity such as an insurance company. The proposed advantages include administrative simplicity for patients and providers, and resulting significant savings in overhead costs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_health_care

I edited point #1 a bit, and then broke it off into a separate line:

1. Promote education about single payer fee for service health insurance.
2. Promote understanding of how Single Payer works to lower costs to everyone as well as to provide full access to quality care for everyone allowing for free choice of care providers.

Motto suggestion: You get what you need!
Great job on getting this started JQC and everyone supporting this!:fistbump:

[cbayer]

44. A few comments on proposed mission statement.

Great start, but I have a few suggestions:

1. I would make the first goal to educate members of the group and then the DU community on the variety of systems being utilized presently in other countries, and the pluses and minuses of those systems.

2. I would take word word "insurance" out and change it to "care".

3. I would remove the term "fee for service" as this defines only one type of possible system.

Just my 2 cents. Looking forward to working with you on this.

[harun]

47. Good ideas.

[John Q. Citizen]

50. There are as many systems as there are countries. And for various reasons

other countries and systems don't necessarily translate exactly.

re:#1 Look at #5 'Promote discussion and understanding of all health reform issues.' That would be pretty open and would include your point in #1 of you reply.

re: #2 When talking about a single payer system it refers to a single payer insurance pool. If you break your leg the health care is the same whether it's a single payer system, a multi payer public private hybred or a completely private multiparty system. Or a private single payer system. What is different is how it's paid for and what the cost is ultimately. In any one of those systems you would expect them to treat your broken leg in the same manner. So the health care is the same, but the organization of the system is different.

#3 We could have a single payer system where people are assigned a doctor from a rotating pool and those doctors were paid on an hourly basis. However I would expect maximum resistance from most physicians, so we would be fighting both the private insurance industry and most of the doctors as well.

I could also go for a forum that was just about health care reform and not specific to any particular solution. Because ultimately all sides need to listen and debate and put their ideas out there for full public scrutiny.

However, It is my considered and thoughtful conclusion that a publicly administered single payer fee for service progressive income tax based health insurance system is the best, fastest, and easiest way to insure every American has access to high quality affordable care and choice of care provider.

So I could go either way. I could argue that on a less specific or more specific forum

[cbayer]

51. I hear you.

Agree on point #!.

On #2, I think that removing the word insurance moves us more quickly away from our current structure. The issue for me is not insurance, it is health care with access for all. This moves it more towards what we want to emphasize - patient centered health care. I think the term single payer incorporates the issue of "insurance", which is really just the payment mechanism.

On #3, the thing I hope most to add to this group is the physician perspective. I understand that there is and will continue to be physician resistance to a single payer system, particularly among older physicians. On the other hand, FFS is not working well for a lot of physicians and other health care providers, and there are many who would be supportive of moving towards a system in which they will be employed and no longer in private practice. FFS is riddled with problems, more often than not ignores quality and outcome, and is vulnerable to "gaming".

I in no way object to the vision that you have developed for where we should end up, but because this will be so difficult and divisive, as you have pointed out so well, I think that leaving the forum open to discuss alternatives and modifications might be more appealing.

[nxylas]

52. Just to clarify something...

Is "fee for service" as distinct from "free at the point of delivery" (as in Britain's NHS)? Because if it is, I prefer the latter.

[John Q. Citizen]

53. no, fee for service is unrelated in anyway to 'free at point of delivery.'

Fee for service means care providers are paid a predetermined fee for providing a service. So treating a simple arm fracture would have a predetermined payment to the care provider for that service whether it took 35 minutes or 45 minutes to do.

This is contrasted with, say, a salary for a physician or an hourly rate.

[nxylas]

54. OK, thanks

I'm relieved to hear it.

[patrice]

34. Suggestions re: Mission Statement . . .

1. Promote education about and action for . . .
2. Act to support Congressional adoption of . . .

Thanks very much for the work that you are doing, All.

:hi:

[patrice]

37. P.S. I realize that there is kind of a strategic risk in publishing specific actions on the internet

But, I'm also thinking that we don't really need to post specific actions as much as we need to make it clear that Action is what we are calling for, not only from Congress, but ALSO from the grassroots.

[John Q. Citizen]

42. My hope is to educate people about the fight we are about to see unfold.

And to give them the knowledge to get into the fight. And for other people to do the same thing for me.

One thing I know is that a well constructed publicly run single payer fee for service system will beat out a similarly well constructed hybrid public and privately run multi-payer multi/compensation system.

The single payer system will beat out the other systems in both cost and quality, all other things being equal.


I break health care reform ideas into three general categories. There are publicly funded and administered reforms. There are private reforms (ie requiring insurance COs to do community rating (equal cost for equal coverage) and there are hybrid reforms which attempt to incorporate both public and private reforms.

A number of people like a publicly administered single payer fee for service but the Senate doesn't. Most people seem willing to forget the most competent idea and for ideological reasons take hambergur #2, which is what our Dems Senate leadership is currently proposing in outline form. Max Baucus has his outline up and ready for comment. Until it's fleshed out there are a lot of questions. From my point of view their are some very good parts (community rating and a publicly funded pool) but of course it's kind of self defeating because it maintains a patchwork approach to health care.

Naomi Klein says the job of the left is too move the center. If that's so, we need to demand the best. We need hamburger #1!

Because if we let them sell us hamburger #2 we are likely to actually get a lot worse quality burger than hamburger #2, since they really like to bait and switch.

We have just seen the complete and utter failure of American style capitalism around the world. We know the job of insurance companies is to charge everyone as much money as they can possibly get away with and to pay out as little money as they can possibly get away with. We shouldn't be shy about pointing out how unpragmatic that is for our health care.

[BrklynLiberal]

35. I think your statement is excellent. Succinct. Nothing to add. n/t

[PaDem]

55. I agree w/the mission statement..........

"educate" is the key word. I'm always amazed at the misconceptions that people have about single payer insurance. The anti-single propaganda is effective and it needs to be countered in an organized and coherent fashion.

[Cleita]

12. Another

:kick:

[eridani]

13. Yes, most assuredly n/t

[Lasher]

17. I'm in. n/t

[GrantDem]

20. I would definitely be interested in this forum

[slipslidingaway]

21. Kick AND from the rules above in post #11...

3. In that thread, members must agree on a proposed mission statement for the DU Group.

"...we need a mission statement. I would say my mission in proposing this new forum is to:

1.Promote education about single payer fee for service health insurance as the best and most pragmatic solution to our health care crisis.

2. Promote the adoption of a universal single payer fee for service health insurance reform.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7960669&mesg_id=7960833

[mvd]

23. I am definitely in favor

K&R

[PaDem]

24. would love it.......

I'd participate actively.

[salin]

25. count me in.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. Kick

[Sunnyshine]

27. K&R- I would definitely participate in a DU forum on Single Payer.

Great idea JQC! :applause:

[Cleita]

28. Kick

:kick:

[harun]

29. I am in.

[truedelphi]

31. Error: sigh -- You can only recommend threads

Started in last 24 hours

But I would have recommended if I had known

[John Q. Citizen]

32. no need to recommend. Just post if you want such a forum.

[truedelphi]

33. I sincerely hope that the suggested forum comes to be. n/t

[grantcart]

45. absolutely - great idea

[Sunnyshine]

46. Why does Single Payer coverage get so little support here on DU?

I don't get why this thread isn't loaded with Democrats K&R this off to the Greatest Page?
Someone- please help me understand it. I guess I am too left and too angry about it to know.

PE Barack Obama supports it. Here he is speaking to the Illinois AFL-CIO, June 30, 2003.

“I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program. I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its Gross National Product on health care cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that’s what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately.Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.”

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/june/barack_obama_on_sing.php

What gives?

[John Q. Citizen]

49. That's a good question.

[Lugnut]

56. I'm interested.

Count me in.

[knixphan]

57. moi aussi

[John Q. Citizen]

58. Good news! I got a reply from Skinner and they are down with it. They have a back log

of new groups but it sounds like in a week or three we should have our group!

[cbayer]

59. Great job, John Q.

I look forward to working with you.

:toast:

[John Q. Citizen]

60. You too! There is a lot to talk about.

[John Q. Citizen]

61. Kick!