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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:05 PM
Original message
Here's why arguing with wingnuts is fruitless, and a complete waste of time and sanity
But that doesn't matter. The faux controversy isn't going to go away soon. Yes, Obama was born in Hawaii, and yes, he is eligible to be president. But according to several experts in conspiracy theories, and in the psychology of people who believe in conspiracy theories, there's little chance those people who think Obama is barred from the presidency will ever be convinced otherwise. "There's no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody's mind," says Michael Shermer, who is the publisher of Skeptic magazine and a columnist for Scientific American, and who holds an undergraduate and a master's degree in psychology. "The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it ... Once you're committed, especially behaviorally committed or financially committed, the more impossible it becomes to change your mind."

Any inconvenient facts are irrelevant. People who believe in a conspiracy theory "develop a selective perception, their mind refuses to accept contrary evidence," Chip Berlet, a senior analyst with Political Research Associates who studies such theories, says. "As soon as you criticize a conspiracy theory, you become part of the conspiracy."


Evan Harrington, a social psychologist who is an associate professor at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, agrees. "One of the tendencies of the conspiracy notion, the whole appeal, is that a lot of the information the believer has is secret or special," Harrington says. "The real evidence is out there, you can give them all this evidence, but they'll have convenient ways to discredit ."

Whatever can't be ignored can be twisted to fit into the narrative; every new disclosure of something that should, by rights, end the controversy only opens up new questions, identifies new plotters. Perhaps the most common argument of those questioning Obama's eligibility is that he should just release his full, original birth certificate, rather than the shorter certification, which is a copy. His failure to do so only proves there is reason to be suspicious, they say, and if the document was released, the issue would go away. But that's unlikely. It was, after all, the Obama campaign's release of the certification this summer that stoked the fever of conspiracy mongers.

For believers, it works like this: So what if Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii's Department of Health, released a statement saying she has verified that the state has the original birth certificate on record? So what if she said separately that the certification looks identical to one she was issued for her own Hawaii birth certificate? Why didn't her statement specify Obama's birthplace? So what if a Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman later clarified that Fukino meant that Obama was born in Hawaii? So what if researchers for FactCheck.org actually saw the physical copy of the certification and debunked much of the key "evidence" supposedly proving that the image posted online is a forgery? They're not really independent. They're funded by the Annenberg Public Policy Center, and Obama once (with Bill Ayers, no less) ran an entirely unrelated program that happened to be paid for with money donated by Walter Annenberg. And on and on and on.

If the long-form birth certificate were released, with its unequivocal identification of Hawaii as Obama's place of birth, the cycle would almost certainly continue. Rush Limbaugh already suggested that Obama's trip to Hawaii to see his ailing grandmother, who died not long after, was somehow connected to the controversy. Others, like Michael Savage, followed Limbaugh's lead, saying Obama was going to Hawaii to alter the record.

Not surprisingly, almost all of the people who've been most prominent in pushing this story have a history of conspiracist thought. There's Jerome Corsi, who's best known as the co-author of the book that launched the Swift boat vets; he's a chief proponent of the claim that the government is secretly planning to form a "North American Union" with Canada and Mexico. Philip Berg, who filed the lawsuit that had until now drawn the most public attention, is a 9/11 Truther. Andy Martin, who's credited with starting the myth that Obama is a Muslim and has been intimately involved in the birth certificate mess as well, was denied admission to the Illinois bar because of a psychiatric evaluation that showed he had "moderately severe character defect manifested by well-documented ideation with a paranoid flavor and a grandiose character." He also has a long history of anti-Semitism. Robert Schulz, who's responsible for the ads in the Tribune, is a fairly notorious tax protester. In 2007, a federal judge ordered Schulz to shutter his Web site because he and his organization were, in the words of the Justice Department's Tax Division, using the site to promote "a nationwide tax-fraud scheme."

We could be dealing with the repercussions of the tangled web these people have woven for years after Obama is inaugurated. We already have some hints of what's to come. Gary Kreep, who heads the United States Justice Foundation and is representing Alan Keyes in one of the lawsuits over the president-elect's eligibility, has said his group will file suit to challenge each and every one of Obama's actions as president.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/12/05/birth_certificate/index.html
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Look who charges by the hour
Gary Kreep, who heads the United States Justice Foundation and is representing Alan Keyes in one of the lawsuits over the president-elect's eligibility, has said his group will file suit to challenge each and every one of Obama's actions as president.


:rofl:
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Could he possibly have a more appropriate surname?
Kreep by name, kreep by nature.
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Alter Ego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. Not only is this financially impractical, it's virtually impossible.
You'd need enough people to file something like 100 lawsuits a day, and the courts would eventually get sick of you.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Compare and contrast Salon v. politico...
I 'guess' this is a story, but I'll take Salon's version.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7961163

Whisper campaign persists despite election

Even with the election decided, the widely debunked whisper campaign claiming that Barack Obama is secretly not an American, and thus not qualified to be president, is going strong.

The Supreme Court is expected to announce on Monday whether or not it will consider two cases contending that Barack Obama is not a "natural born citizen," as the president is required to be under Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. One case, referred to the court by Justice Clarence Thomas after Justice David Souter had rejected it, argues that because Obama's father was a citizen of Kenya, at the time a British colony, the president-elect was born with dual citizenship. The other, filed by Attorney Phillip J. Berg, effectively contends that Obama has outright lied about having been born on American soil.

At least four of the court's nine judges must approve before a case is heard, and the great majority of the petitions brought before the Court are dismissed without comment. Still, it's further grist for what's been an active conspiracy mill.

more...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16257.html
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Salon has a lot of information and links.
These guys are even crazier than I imagined!
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. They're crazier than you CAN imagine.
Your mind is not even capable of encompassing the degree of these people's insanity. :hi:
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. WHERE'S THE PROOF that Obama was not born on American soil,
or that neither of his parents were American citizens? Don't the plaintiffs have to provide that?

:headbang:
rocknation
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. Didn't you hear? Somebody had a phone conversation with somebody
who says Obama was born in Kenya! There's a transcript and everything!
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. After seeing those names thrown around online so often,
it's nice to get some background information on these kooks. And these are the leaders; just think about all of the freeper lunatics who are following them.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. I believe the medical term for this condition is
"sore losing."

:eyes:
rocknation
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Arguing with wingnuts is not fruitless
Done properly, you can make them mad or get them to believe even crazier conspiracy theories.

Karma be damned... it makes me smile.

TlalocW
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. LOL
Great post!!!

:hi:
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
9.  Is a "9/11 Truther" someone who believes the govt's fairy tale
or someone who wants to know what REALLY happened that day?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. a twoofer is a nut with a tin-foil hat.
Little different then these nuts or the crazies that went around saying Hillary killed Vince Foster. all 3 are pathetic delusions.

It's damn clear what happened that day. 19 Islamists hijacked jet-liners and flew then into the WTC and the Pentegon.
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Big difference, but if you want to believe that Bushco was pure as Ivory soap in relation to 9/11
I won't pop that little soap bubble of fantasy for ya.

And I got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell ya. Dirt cheap.

:eyes:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I think W was incompetent and asleep at the wheel.
Too busy pushing through tax cuts for the have-mores to care about national security.

There may have been some degree of LIHOP at most, I have seen no reasonable evidence for MIHOP.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Do you have evidence that they planned 9/11?
Caused 9/11? LIHOP?

Are you waiting for the *real* documents to come out?

The *real* truth?

Lets pause for a second, and look at that word: "real".

It assumes that the thinker, who knows what is "real", has some secret or special knowledge. This is a powerful feeling.

I do not ask that you accept my version of what is "real".

I only ask that you accept the each and every person carries around their own idea of "real", and does not try to force, cajole, or indoctrinate others into their idea of "real".

Hawaii-truthers are just as valid as 9/11-truthers.

They know what is "real". For them, it is real (no quotes).

I will happily accept that you know the "truth", and what is "real", for you.

Will you accept that what is "truth" and "real", for me, is different than for you?
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Any "real" documents have probably been run through Uncle Dick's truck sized shredder.
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 05:17 AM by Cheap_Trick
But hey go for it. I'll stick with the TRUTH, you can have the "truth" (since you like quotation marks so much) if that helps you sleep better at night.

People who accept the official fairy tale are just as valid as the Hawaii-truthers.

Sucks being lumped in with them, don't it?


On edit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/01/20_pnac.html

What a real big coincidence that PNAC (which included Uncle Dick, Wolfowitz) just a year before called for "catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor." and a year later got exactly that.

How fortuitous for them. 9/11 got them almost everything they wanted, and they just "stumbled" into it with dumb luck.

Riiight.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. BC Truthers are way nuttier than 911 ones
911 is a large and complex event which does have its unexplained or strange features.

BCgate is just a complete fail.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Hey, thanks for proving the article's point.
And by the way, it's acknowledged fact that the Bushies demonstrated incompetence on a massive scale and ignored the intelligence about impending attacks. Nobody thinks they're "pure as Ivory soap." Hell, I may disagree with LIHOP'ers, but I can see how they arrive at their conclusion. It's the MIHOP "hurr, it wuz a missile/controlled demolition!" folks who get a :rolleyes: from me.

Occam's Razor: Simplest possible explanation is most often the right one.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ugh. This shit is going to be this 8 years' version of "The Clintons killed Vince Foster, OMG!!!"...
:banghead:
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I'm afraid you're right.
Edited on Sun Dec-07-08 11:18 PM by janx
The Salon article has some good links to the backgrounds of some of the conspiracy theorists. Very bizarre (and not very likable) people.
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Alter Ego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Clinton still left office with a 60%+ approval rating.
It didn't do much to damage his standing with the American people.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. The OP also applies to the JFK CTs
and those who promote the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories.
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