The Black Agenda Report on Obama

[LWolf]

confirms what I've thought, and often said, for a couple of years now:

http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=929&Itemid=1

Obama’s ‘Center-Right’ Presidency: The Die is Cast
Wednesday, 10 December 2008

BAR executive editor Glen Ford

<snip>

In case there are any lingering doubts, it's official: Barack Obama has earned a well-deserved rating of "center-right" politician, courtesy of the New York Times. The president-elect worked hard to pull himself rightward, after starting off with a reputation as a liberalish "peace" candidate. Nobody calls Obama that anymore, not since he endorsed the bankers' bailout, put the economy's future in the hands of the same people that set the stage for financial meltdown, and let Bush's War Secretary keep the keys to the imperial armory. So let's give it to Obama. He won't ever have an identity crisis, again.

We already know enough. There is no more mystery as to what makes Barack Obama tick. He is your garden variety "center-right" American politician, as rated by no less an authority than the New York Times - the folks who practically invented the standards by which one is located in the corporate political spectrum.

There are lots of political appointments to go before Obama's roster is complete, but the heavy lifting is done. The ideological pillars of America's first Black presidency have been planted wholly within the parameters of governance allowed by big capital and the imperial military. Obama's "transition" is more accurately seen as a "continuity" of rule by the lords of finance capital and their protective screen of warriors and spies. The Obama regime, still incomplete, already wreaks of filthy rich thieves and gore-covered war criminals.

I know this isn't popular here at DU. It's a good thing that it's 25 degrees and snowing heavily while I type this, lol. Flames won't find any purchase.

This is why I never supported Obama. This is why I didn't celebrate on the morning after. This is why I had no hope for authentic change once the rest of the field dropped out last January.

Like it or not, I am not "the only one," "the fringe," or "the loony _______;" I am simply one of the disenfranchised left of center, and I am not alone.

Some don't care how far right they have to go to make sure that their team is the "winner." Some always have been centrist, and right-of-center, Democrats, Republicans, and independents. Some are still hanging on to fairy tale hopes. Some are finding it easier to move themselves to right-of-center than to find themselves shut out of the process.

I am none of those. I'm still here left-of-center, and I'm not going away. I'm not going to pretend that Barack Obama is some kind of hero. He's not GWB. He's not McCain/Palin. That's the best I can say; not what he IS, but what he is not.

Now that the election is finally over, I'm firmly on the left, in opposition to centrist and centrist-right policies and politicians.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. No flames from me. I'm waiting to see how the first 100 days go but

I completely understand your post.

[LWolf]

2. I'll be the first to stand and cheer for

every positive move to the left. I hope there will be something, during the first 100 days and the next 4 years, to cheer.

I don't expect anything to move without significant pressure applied from the left.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iconocrastic]

53. Why the equation black = left?

If we have a political philosophy that works, why not let it stand on its merits without having to bring race into it? Why not educate people as to why our philosophy should work, rather than pretend that their race requires them to agree with us? Isn't this racism?

Sure, go ahead and flame. That only proves my point.

[LWolf]

60. I don't suggest that equation.

Not that race didn't play in this election. I don't think you are suggesting that it didn't.

Generally, all opposition to Obama, regardless of the reasons, has been blamed by some on racism.

That not all black Americans agree with Obama on issues is the very thing that takes race out of the equation.

[pecwae]

108. Your subject line is a pet peeve of mine here.

I fail to see how saying, "black = left', or "if black folks don't vote Dem they're voting against their own best interests (they don't know what's good for them)", isn't racist. Using those types of statements does nothing to further a colorblind society, but they are regularly posted.

[FrenchieCat]

3. I slowed down at ......

"Barack Obama has earned a well-deserved rating..."
and stopped at "We already know enough."

#1. As a Black person, I hope these folks don't think they are speaking for me.
#2. Barack hasn't "earned" anything yet, except from the loonies.
#3. Anyone who determines out loud that they "already know enough" actually doesn't know shit.

The self righteousness of these folks and what they think they know is quite vulgar,
in particular when a little humility would be in order.

The fact that the only comment starts out....and, where are the Obamabots????


In otherwords, they don't know "jack squat",
and so I say FUCK EM' and what they claim to "already know"! :eyes:

[firedupdem]

23. Crabs in a fucking barrel! Fuck em all!!!! n/t

[kwenu]

64. Obama is centrist. I'm not sure how that got confused other than wishful thinking.

The left will probably win some positions under Obama.

[Odin2005]

73. Obama is a Liberal.

The "Obama is a centrist" meme is a creation of Green Party operatives like the OP to create disunity. The Naderites will stop at nothing to destroy the Democratic Party, even if it means letting the Pukes to be in power and f*ck up this country.

[LWolf]

86. Obama is a centrist.

I'm not a green party operative. Never been a green, never met with greens to campaign for anything. I've always known he was a centrist. It was evident in his '04 convention speech, which is when I first took notice.

His policy positions and his record in the U.S. Senate make him a centrist.

Calling him a liberal is a centrist tactic to keep the left pacified. It doesn't work.

[Odin2005]

90. No, his voting record says you are wrong.

Obama
http://www.issues2000.org/Barack_Obama.htm


Biden
http://www.issues2000.org/Joe_Biden.htm




Now a Centrist would be Iowa Governor and real DLCer Tom Vilsack
http://www.issues2000.org/Tom_Vilsack.htm



Now here is Dennis Kucinich
http://www.issues2000.org/Dennis_Kucinich.htm





Obama and Biden are FAR closer to Kucinich then they are to actual Centrists like Governor Vile-Sack.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

95. BS.

Much more accurate.

[Odin2005]

97. No, the Political Compass's placement of politicians is BS.

That become clear to me when there was a thread on that quiz a while back and accuring to the Political Compass something like 95% of DUers were to the left of Kucinich, (I came out as -8 on economics and -4 on Authoritarian-Libertarian) which I find to be ridiculous. Based on what I know from their voting records and their statements both would be in the lower-right part of the red quadrant.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

100. The PC results for politicians comport with my observations.

Here's Evan Bayh:





Game. Set. Match.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

113. Heres Lugar and Bayh:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/statesbysenator.php?sl=in


Rings true, don't it?

[Two Americas]

125. that tells us nothing

Voting along with the rest of the corporate centrist Dems doesn't make a person left wing.

[LWolf]

134. It all depends on how you crunch it, doesn't it?

I personally find this one more accurate:



http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

[Freddie Stubbs]

98. Actually, it did work. He got elected

[LWolf]

132. You're right about that.

If I thought he was doing the "run to the center, govern from a little to the left," I wouldn't be so concerned.

He doesn't have to be as left as I am to make me happy. Just move one small left of center, and I'll be thrilled.

That's not what I see happening.

[psychmommy]

94. here here frenchie. i second that.

[Autonomy]

102. FrenchieCat

Thanks for, once again, being the voice of reason.

[Raineyb]

104. Actually, the Black Agenda Report has been rating Obama since he got into the Senate

They rate the entire Congressional Black Caucus. I'm sure that their statement that he's earned a well deserved rating comes from that. This report is put out at least twice a year, possibly quarterly. As they're basing their report on both past votes and current cabinet picks I'm not sure exactly where the claim of ignorance comes from.

Regards

[SoxFan]

144. Ford is NOT a Democrat

He supported the Green Party this past cycle.

[Raineyb]

187. And that negates what he's done how?

It does not change the fact that Ford and his CBC watch has been rating Obama and the CBC and as such will have an opinion on how he thinks Obama will govern without being accused of being ignorant. He may be a Green, that matters not a bit to me, but he's been paying attention and he rates the CBC, and Obama as a Senator based on whether their votes fit the criteria that he sets out. So what? The man's not a freeper. Greens are certainly agree more with the Democratic party than the Republican party they should be seen as allies not enemies.

Ford being a Green does not negate one thing I said.

Regards

[butterfly77]

163. I will third,fourth,fifth...

or wherever I am on the list. I am so tired of hearing this shit when he hasn't even been sworn in yet. Everybody wants him to follow their agenda on everything he will be the president for all people and not just black people.Considering what he will be left with why in the hell do some expect miracles..

He will not show he hand on all of the issues in the first months. I have never heard so much shit about expectations for a president when he will be left with so many problems.The Republicons are doing their best to make sure he has nothing to work with. Some of these same people who say they are supporters are as bad as the neocons.

[Orsino]

179. Whaddya mean?

We're six weeks into the failed Obama Administration, and you're trying to rewrite history? How long do you want him to be President-Elect before you make up your mind? Are you one of those who's going to insist that he nominate someone for every damned Cabinet post first?

:evilgrin:

[Mudoria]

188. I agree

pretty laugable reading an opinion piece (hit piece would be more descriptive)like this. The man is not President yet... the cabinet appointments have been solid picks imo. And even if you disagree with some of the picks you need only remember the buck stops at PE Obama, as he's said repeatedly. These people will be carrying out HIS policies, not their own. I'll trust the PE at his word until he proves differently, and so far he's been as good as his word.

[cali]

4. I can tell you some things he is, but why bother?

Oh, and the blogger you post has done nothing but post unremittingly negative shit about Obama- and smears.

I'm left of center, and I support Obama- at least until he actually demonstrates that he doesn't deserve my support.

[happychatter]

5. you, don't speak for "we"

the reason YOU are "disenfranchised," is because you are a minority, incapable of hammering out agreements on shared issues with people you disagree with otherwise; for the purpose of getting something done

a strict ideologue

best of luck with that

[cali]

7. yep. you nailed it.

[LWolf]

9. Try reading again.

The only person speaking for "we" is the author of the article I linked to. Since I'm not black, I'm probably not the intended "we" of the article, either. I just agree with the evaluation of Obama.

I don't speak for anyone but myself, and I've never pretended otherwise.

The fact that I'm not the only person left-of-center to label Obama as "center-right" speaks for itself, since The Black Agenda Report has also done so.

[happychatter]

10. This Author campaigned for Cynthia McKinney as did YOU, in all likelihood

There is nothing wrong with my fucking comprehension

You are on the wrong board... mho

you've been stirring up this BULLSHIT with your Green Party Recruitment with every breath for a very long time

YOU WANT TO BE A LOSER?

not my problem

don't lecture me

[happychatter]

22. Dear Iggy

Please go back to stalking your ex.

Sincerely;

Happy

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

11. that a bunch of green party folks label Obama center right

does indeed speak for itself. It just doesn't say anything meaningful.

[DevonRex]

14. And LW has publically declared himself to be "in opposition" to Obama now.

Before he is even inaugurated.

That does say something meaningful about the OP.

[cali]

17. herself. The OP is female.

but beyond that, she's certainly demonstrated a lock box mind as concerns Obama.

[LWolf]

31. You need to get to know me better

before you have anything meaningful to say about me.

Cyber judging is notoriously faulty.

For example, I'm not a "him."

I publicly declared myself in opposition to Obama, and to all centrists, at the opening bell of the '08 primary season, back in '07. I ran that announcement in my sigline for a year.

I believe that the article I linked to simply offers some evidence that I was correct to do so.

There is no shame in opposing centrism.

I never bought that argument; I opposed both of them equally from the moment that they were the last two standing.

As a matter of fact, Obama was celebrated at DU partly on the mistaken idea that he is "not dlc," with Democrats, and MANY here at DU, passionately claiming he was less centrist, less corporatist, than dlcer HRC.

Apparently, as recently as last spring, there were plenty of DUers who opposed centrism. :shrug:

[mkultra]

174. he was celebrated because he thinks unlike McKinney

for gods sake, she publicly railed against Gore and is now embraced by the green. Any port in a storm.

[LWolf]

29. My error:

I didn't realize that the BAR was a "bunch of greens."

Of course, I'm not a green myself, and never have been.

:eyes:

[cali]

30. whatever. my point stands

you've had the opportunity to do what you said you'd do; cheer if Obama ever did anything liberal. He has. You haven't.

[LWolf]

42. You just didn't notice.

I've agreed with him twice, right here on DU.

Once, when he said that American students ought to learn to speak a second language.

Again, more recently, when he talked about using some money to create jobs and rebuild infrastructure.

Get it right. Twice is twice, not "haven't."

The more often he earns it, the more often I'll say it.

[cali]

45. lol

you are too funny.

:rofl:

Good to have some comic relief.

[mkultra]

175. sounds great

and maybe you can stop bringing your garbage to DU for a while.

[BlooInBloo]

8. (yawn)

[DevonRex]

12. So you are in opposition to Obama. The last line clearly states it.

"Now that the election is finally over, I'm firmly on the left, in opposition to centrist and centrist-right policies and politicians."

I won't waste my time telling you anything about Obama. Your mind was made up long ago.

[LWolf]

33. You are absolutely correct.

My mind was made up before the primaries began. He's done nothing to change it, and much to prove me correct.

You would be wasting your time telling me anything about Obama. His own actions and words are evidence enough.

[Two Americas]

124. don't ya love it?

First we hear "why is anyone surprised? Obama was always a centrist! Weren't you paying attention? Why are you turning on him now?"

When people point out that they have not changed their minds, and are not surprised, and have been saying the same things all along, we then hear a new line of attack.

"Oh you were against Obama right from the start. We know your type. Your mind was already made up, so no sense in tying to talk to you."

[LWolf]

129. You nailed that.

There is no acceptable means of dissent.

:(

[mkultra]

176. maybe you shouldnt "cyber judge" him.

[BumRushDaShow]

13. Straight from the Tavis Smiley school of idiocy

:eyes:

Looked this guy up and found this:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/tavis-smiley-seeks-relief-from-crazed-obamites/

Yup. There's a whole crew out there who think they know all because nothing came before them. They can name-call with the best of the lunatic fringe RW bloviators who they emulate, while claiming they can speak for "Black America".

Sorry but as a black female, these folks are in an unreality bubble and haven't internalized the fact that the Kucinich's of the world (and I whole-heartedly supported Kucinich until he dropped out and directed his supporters to support Obama) will NOT be elected nationally in this country. Particularly since the masses truly ARE brainwashed - but not the way they think. They also can't seem to separate out the branches of government that TOGETHER craft policy and the laws of the land. These are the same sorts who appeal to and are often themselves, perennial NON-VOTERS.

Many are ilk not unlike the Ken Hamblins and Walter Williamses that grace Rash Limpball's show - their commentary is quite similar.

The black community is not a monolith, that's for damn sure but we're not all stupid like this crowd seems to think. There's nothing wrong with being an activist or being an angry activist but some seem to prefer to bring about their own self-fulfilling prophesy via faux outrage about something that hasn't happened yet.

[FrenchieCat]

16. self delete

[LWolf]

35. I agree that

NOBODY can speak for black america. Not me, as I'm not black. Not any one black group, because race does not determine all.

I figured that this was a pretty good link, though, since there is always, from some quarters, accusations of racism to every opposition to Obama, regardless of merit.

There are reasons to oppose Obama that transcend race.

My only reason to pay attention, to be active, to even vote, is to move issues. I'm not a partisan. I'm not about consolidating power in any one group, since power corrupts. I'm about moving issues, and, more specifically, about moving them to the left. If Obama can be pressured to do that, I'll be satisfied.

At this point, I'm highly skeptical.

As for the rest of the left? I don't speak for them. I do listen, though, and I hear much of the same.

That's something that the center, and Obama, have not done well. They haven't spent any time truly listening to the left, rhetoric and propaganda aside. Obama was careful to distance himself from the left even in the primaries. There should be no surprise that there are some on the left who don't appreciate it, and who aren't cheering his centrist agenda on.

[Thrill]

15. YAWN

You don't know how the guy is going to govern. And how the hell is possibly pushing a 1 trillion dollar stimulus package considered center or center right?

[balantz]

18. Don't worry, there's a lot of us on the far left.

And a lot more to come: The poor and disenfranchised. The low wage earner who can't find a job and feed the family, or keep shelter and medical insurance. We ARE the true majority, and growing in ranks.

[Occam Bandage]

20. Er, yes. And 96% of self-described liberals support Obama.

OMG THE GREENS ARE GOING TO DESTROY HIM

[cali]

21. and the majority of those you specified, support Obama

[balantz]

54. The numbers are those who voted, are they not?

There are millions of people who are citizens that have given up on the government stepping up to the plate for them.

[LWolf]

36. Yes.

I don't want the left to defer to Democrats like the right does for Republicans, as the lesser of two evils. I want our government to be accountable to us, and those we vote for to represent us.

Of course, I always have been a defiant idealist, lol.

[cali]

37. that's a silly myth. the right doesn't bow to the repukes

anymore than the left bows to the dems. take a fricken' look at freeperville. They hate anyone who they don't see as ideologically pure.

Most of the left supports Obama. That doesn't mean we won't criticize him.

Defiant opposition based on false premises and ideological purity isn't admirable.

[LWolf]

43. Having lived in republican strongholds my entire life,

I know better. Poor republicans that suffer under republican financial rule vote republican because of god, guns, and gays, regardless of whether or not they as a socio-economic group are served in any way.

[cali]

44. uh, that's not remotely what you said in the post I responded to

you said the right is in lockstep with the repub party. now you're talking about another demographic.

[LWolf]

50. No.

The right isn't exclusive to any class or economic demographic. They count.

[TBF]

120. And that is just the beginning... next are the middle class currently

hanging on for dear life. Watching our car companies declare bankruptcy should be enough to get people in the streets. That's ALOT of people out of work at once. We'll see.

[Occam Bandage]

19. WHAARGARBL

[BlooInBloo]

76. I lolled! For REALZ!

:rofl:

[firedupdem]

24. Amazing.

you write:

"This is why I never supported Obama. This is why I didn't celebrate on the morning after. This is why I had no hope for authentic change once the rest of the field dropped out last January."

So then what is your point in being here other than to stir up bullshit and post bullshit from Green Party supporters? Don't you have your own board for that shit?

Edit: These motherfuckers don't speak for one black person I know including myself. I hate crabs in a barrel. Same ones mad and jealous at another persons better education, better outlook on life, better way of raising children and the list goes on. Fuck them all....jealous losers!

[LWolf]

38. Your questions:

So then what is your point in being here other than to stir up bullshit and post bullshit from Green Party supporters? Don't you have your own board for that shit?

My point in being here, obviously, is because DU is still billing itself as one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet. I'm here to participate on one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards.

Of course, I have wondered if it isn't time for DU to update that self-description. I don't really find it accurate any more. As membership has grown, the board has become more mainstream, more centrist. A natural outcome.

Still, I've been here for 6+ years; long before your Sept. '08 date. Long before Obama was ever part of the conversation.

"Left-wing" issues, and "left-wing" politics and discussions, aren't about Obama. He's not left-wing. DU is not Obama underground. While it is partisan, a site that bills itself as left-wing is certainly an appropriate place to state left-wing positions.

Is the BAR a bunch of "Green Party supporters?" News to me.

Since I'm not a Green, I'm not sure what board you'd like to point me to. I've never been on a board exclusive to Greens.

[DevonRex]

25. "This is why I never supported Obama. This is why I didn't celebrate on the morning after."

Pure unadulterated flamebait.

[cali]

26. yes, it is flamebait.

The OP says so laughingly right in the post. And the blog quoted is full of lies. Since when has the "authoratative" NYT written that Obama is center right?

The OP has done nothing but post negative crap about Obama.

[DevonRex]

27. And obviously flew just under the radar before the GE. That was

not an honest thing to do, IMO.

Personally, I don't care that other people have opinions that are different from my own. What I do care about is honesty. I don't like it when a bunch of crap is slung under the guise of "constructive" criticism and then the OP reveals that she NEVER supported the democratic candidate.

So now, she admits the truth, AFTER the GE is over, AFTER the time during which Obama was a democratic candidate - when she would have been expected to generally support him and only give constructive criticism.

[LWolf]

46. I opposed Obama up until the convention.

Publicly. Not under the radar. I hoped for a brokered convention. Publicly. When the convention was over, I PUBLICLY agreed to hold my peace until after the election here at DU, in order to comply with DU rules.

I did so. Since I couldn't, in good conscience, campaign FOR Obama, I gave my energies to replacing my republican senator with a democrat, which happened in a very close race. I spoke publicly and frequently against Palin, which, while not speaking FOR Obama, certainly was working against his opposition.

That's not "flying under the radar." That's called transparency.

I've never pretended to be anything but what I am.

Blunt, upfront, and uncompromisingly LEFT.

A proud and defiant IDEALIST.

[cali]

51. for you, it appears to be all about.... you.

It's amusing to know that your self-rightious nonsense is just irrelevant. And a brokered convention would have been a circus that accomplished nothing good.

[DevonRex]

52. Does your idealism not contain any fairness? IMHO, we must give

Obama a fair chance to prove himself to be one thing or another.

What you don't get is that all of us here are THE LEFT. All of us here are progressive idealists. But most of us also have at least a smidge of practicality and fairness added to our idealism. We don't think it is right to judge a man before he is even sworn in.

[LWolf]

57. I appreciate your comments.

First, that they are made with some civility. It's possible to disagree with civility.

Also, because I am admittedly impatient. I hope he governs further to the left than his policy positions, and his cabinet appointments, indicate. Those are the evidence to hand at this point, and it doesn't look hopeful. Still, as I have said all along, I will GLADLY give him credit for any leftward movements he makes.

I don't really consider DU to be the "left." At one point, back in '02 and the beginning of '03, I did. Interestingly enough, I found many people to chat with who I considered to be MUCH further to the left than I.

The larger DU got, the more mainstream and less underground, the more to the center it's moved. That's logical. Most of those who were further to the left than I are gone. Some tombstoned for being more loyal to the left than to the party, and some just moved on when the site moved towards the center. Some still show up now and then, a very few are still around, but are now, along with me, considered "fringe." That's probably accurate, as far as DU goes. DU's "left" is now closer to the center than it used to be, and I find myself part of that "fringe."

The funny thing is that, when I found DU 6+ years ago, I considered myself pretty moderate. I think that says a great deal about the movement of the nation, as well as the site, that a moderate-left person is now the "loony left fringe" on a supposedly "left-wing" discussion board, without ever changing positions on issues.

[balantz]

63. I think perhaps a lot of far lefties are still far left, but have been pushed out of sight.

They are perhaps scattered out into many smaller discussion forums, or have given up on participating even more.

What do you think?

[LWolf]

66. I know some who fit that description.

I haven't allowed myself to be pushed out.

It might be true that I've given up on expecting any but a rare few at DU to give a shit about the left, but I haven't been bullied into silence.

[balantz]

69. I give a shit too, I just don't post in GD:P too much. I like to contribute videos and articles

and comment here and there. I also visit the dungeon now and then because I feel it's important to bring 9/11 truth to light.

I don't feel most people are aware enough as to how much our government is owned by the corporate elite and how they are waging class warfare on us, often in crafty and quiet ways. So that kind of thing is what I often post.

[Odin2005]

74. People that are to the "Left of DU" are Marxist-Maoist and Anarchist nuts.

[LWolf]

87. I am to the left of most of DU

and I am neither an anarchist or a Marxist.

Try not to expose your ignorance any further. When I arrived at DU, I was a moderate. A whole lot of DU, if not "most," was to the left of me.

I haven't moved.

What was once "moderately left" is now farther left than DU.

A big right-ward shift does not reflect well on DU, and efforts to marginalize those that didn't make the shift along with the rest don't, either.

[Odin2005]

88. Lying and/or denial doesn't reflect well on you.

I've been on DU since 2005 and was a lurker for 2 years before that, I have not seen any appreciable shift in that time, certainly not one far to the right. If anything it has shifted slightly to the left because many moderate posters have left as anger against the DLC increased.

So looks like you have moved.

[LWolf]

135. It wouldn't reflect well if I were doing so. I'm not.

And I definitely see a big shift.

Which is only logical, of course. As the board grows, it better reflects the general population.

[NashVegas]

137. For Some People, "Have a Nice Day" Is Flamebait

Just sayin' ...

[LWolf]

40. Only for those

whose need for partisan dominance outweighs positions on issues.

I'm about issues, not about personalities or partisan politics.

[DevonRex]

47. If you are all about issues, then you would wait until he's actually president

and has actually DONE SOMETHING before you pass judgment.

Since you are attacking him BEFORE he has even been inaugurated, your claim to be about issues and not about personalities or partisan politics does not ring true.

I have read many of your posts over the last 6 months. Most of them weren't complimentary about Obama. This one today is the first that clearly states that you NEVER SUPPORTED HIM and, even more, that you are OPPOSED TO HIM. I think we all know what would have happened if you had stated that so clearly during the runup to the GE.

I expect a modicum of fairness from progressives. Trashing the democratic PE before he even takes office doesn't have even a HINT of fairness to it.

[LWolf]

48. You don't think his stated, and written, policy positions count?

I do.

:shrug:

[cali]

61. funny thing. you haven't listed all those policy positions you disagree with.

You say you disagree with all of them. How interesting. Too bad you don't support spending on jobs programs. Sad that you don't support doing something about climate change. Equally sad that you don't support FOCA, Justices in the vein of Breyer and Ginsberg, Energy proposals that focus on renewables with an Energy Sec who's focused on that for years. I don't see that you support good policy at all.

[LWolf]

65. Yes I have.

I've listed them ad nauseum.

Here's a few for ya:

Health Care
Education
War on Terror

That's a good start.

[wyldwolf]

28. look out! Here they come!

[Drunken Irishman]

34. Center-right?

Ugh, this is why I hate ideologically extreme nitwits.

If you're even slightly to the left or the right to them, you're automatically liberal/conservative.

I mean, isn't that what we heard from the general? McCain, who seemed fairly conservative to me, was thought to be a liberal by the right-wing extremists because he wasn't AS right as many of them. Bullshit.

Obama is no more center-right than McCain is center-left.

[LWolf]

39. Actually, I've publicly stated

that I consider Obama to be center-right numerous times over the last 18 months.

I think his policy positions in some key areas, and his cabinet appointments, back that up.

I wonder why those who are happy with his positions and his picks are so sensitive about being thought "centrist," or "center-right," when that's clearly where they are.

Why not just acknowledge their positions? I have no problem with declaring for the left-wing of the party and the nation, regardless of the attacks that follow.

Why are there people who WANT Obama to be perceived as somehow sympathetic to, if not part of, the left, when he clearly isn't?

[Drunken Irishman]

49. Yeah, I can't value your opinion, then.

You've lost all credibility with a statement like that.

[LWolf]

55. You are welcome to

your opinion. You have a right to it, as I do to mine.

I don't hold my positions because you, or anyone else, might value them.

I hold them because I think they are correct, and because it's the right thing to do.

[Drunken Irishman]

56. Good for you.

I see you as no different than those on the right who said McCain was left of center.

If Obama is right of center, then you must be to the left of Stalin and that type of ideological extremism is NOT what I want from the president.

[LWolf]

58. If you are ever interested in finding out

where I really stand, just ask. I'll be glad to share.

Or, just make up your mind based on my opinion of Obama.

Whatever.

[Drunken Irishman]

71. I know where you stand.

Obama is right of center in your mind, which means you're nowhere near moderate liberalism or rational liberalism.

[LWolf]

80. You don't look at where I stand.

Or where Obama stands, for that matter. Just that we're not standing in the same place.

If you want to define where I stand, you do it with issues, which is what defines position.

I stand for Universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care. He doesn't.

I stand for peace. He's a hawk.

I stand for labor. He supports NAFTA/CAFTA.

I stand for education. For fully funding our efforts, and for addressing the root causes of poor performance, rather than playing the corrupt blame game. He supports the conservative ideology that has gutted any semblance of democracy or of thinking in public schools in the last decade.

I could go on, but why?

Issues are less than fandom for you.

[cali]

111. really? he's a hawk? And that must be why he supported the Iraq War.

And don't forget he believes we shouldn't talk to our "enemies". You are a confused person. And Obama supports labor, my dear. Ask labor. He supports card check. And he supports trade agreements with worker protections- and environmental protections. but keep pulling stuff out of your.... whatever. It just shows what you really are.


Obama lives in the real world. You don't. Not even fucking close. It's easy for little armchair idiots to act sanctimonious and courageous.

[LWolf]

128. I'm sure that's why he supported the Iraq war.

He campaigned on a speech he gave before he ever got to the Senate to vote, disagreeing with the rush to war. Of course, he voted to support it by funding it every chance he got until he started running on being "against the war" in the Democratic primaries.

[MadBadger]

117. Just because he isnt a pacifist, doesnt mean hes a hawk

A dictionary is your friend.

[LWolf]

127. Of course the dictionary is my friend,

which has nothing to do with whether or not he's a hawk.

He's eager to continue the bogus "war on terror." He was talking about leaving the door open to unilateral action in Pakistan a year ago.

He's a hawk.

[MadBadger]

155. And that action led us to taking down high level Al Qaeda Targets

Or, is Al Qaeda are friend now?

1 issue does not make somebody a hawk.

[LWolf]

164. Al Qaeda?

I believe that the policies of U.S. governments during my life-time has created enmity, and enemies. Al Qaeda is one.

I believe that the bogus "war on terror" has increased Al Qaeda's status in the world. I disagree with the whole precept.

There are better ways to handle international relations than to declare a never-ending war on anyone you want to link to anything, or any group, you don't like.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

159. LWolf the more I read your posts on this thread

the more I agree with you. I would consider myself far left, much more than Obama has voted in the past. I supported Obama in the primary and I think I had some wishful thinking going on when it came to his voting record. I was disgusted by his FISA vote and disagreed very much on his views on the "war on terror" That being said I am not ready to say "okay he is center right and he doesn't represent me" just yet. I believe I have to give him a chance to govern before I make that judgement. As I think everyone should. I haven't posted on DU for very long but was a lurker for awhile and I am in agreement with you about the centrist nature of DU. But you arent the only one on here that is an idealist I would say most of us are. I am very disappointed with his cabinet picks. His choice that he is announcing today for the Secretary of Education is abysmal, if the Chicago Public School system is the model he wants for the country (I live in Chicago), our children are in serious trouble. So I understand your concerns, but I say lets give him a chance first. I also like your Jello Biafra picture, if only he would run for president.

[LWolf]

186. The Arne Duncan pick

was another nail in the coffin of any hope I had for the incoming administration.

I'm a teacher. And I talk, now and then, to some teachers in Chicago.

:(

I'm glad to see you at DU. I think it's going to be the job of the left to keep the rest honest, in government and in political conversation around the nation.

[stillcool]

41. As far as I know...

no one person can fix the ills of this country. I don't expect much from Obama, because I don't expect much from the American people. What I do expect is the continuous cacophony of complaints about the media, about elected officials, about each other, and especially about Obama. Anything that can break through all that bullshit, and bring about a miniscule amount of change in the lives of 'everyman' Americans is a huge win for me.

[LWolf]

59. I don't disagree with most of that.

I never expected ANYONE we might have elected to fix everything.

I had, a year ago, a wistful, and knowingly unrealistic, hope that the party might nominate, and the nation elect, someone who would make left-ward change possible.

I've known that wouldn't happen since last January. At this point in time, all the nations' attention and hopes are focused on Obama. He's running the show as far as forming an administration and setting the agenda. His party is mostly rushing to march behind him. If there is any hope of any small changes, they will happen between now and next summer, imo.

We're not going to be out of Iraq. We're NOT going to quit waging the bogus "war on terror." We're not going to get true universal health care. We MIGHT get a concession to invest in infrastructure and jobs at home while the big money goes to those at the top. We won't be repealing NAFTA/CAFTA. We're not going to re-regulate. We're not going to get rid of NCLB. I'm betting we don't repeal the Patriot Acts or get rid of "homeland security," either.

Is it too much to ask that we get a left-leaning secretary of education?

What small things can we look for? Will they be concessions? Lip service? Or will they have any significance in the big picture at all?

[cali]

62. One more time: We can look forward to real engagement on Climate Change

to reasonable Justices and federal justices, to FOCA, to the demise of DODT, to a substantial jobs program, and more. Those are the written policies you seem to hate.

[LWolf]

67. No.

I don't "hate," on principle.

As I've said many times, I oppose his policies on:

War
Education
Health Care

There are more, but those are the most pressing.

[stillcool]

110. I think your expectations about a...

"left-leaning" President of the United States(according to your definition) is a little out of the realm of possibility. I don't have your optimism towards the future either. Not only do I not expect the Obama administration to accomplish a damn thing, I predict that every single thing he attempts will be assailed by the 'left', the 'right', and the 'middle'. 'We the people' will be so busy fighting each other that our overlords can do anything they damn well please...as usual. Divide and conquer will rule the day.

[LWolf]

130. I knew better to think

that someone like DK could be president, of course.

I hoped for someone who was at least willing to acknowledge the left, to include them at the table; someone not so willing to step to the right of center.

:shrug:

[ecstatic]

68. "This is why I never supported Obama" = credibility lost

I plan to wait to see what actually happens before making snap judgments based on his employee/staff choices.

Mr. Glen Ford, you don't speak for me--and I suggest that you refrain from trying to do so. Buh bye now! :hi:

[LWolf]

70. "Mr. Glen Ford," lol.

I'm not the BAR. I just agree with them in this instance.

If people lose credibility with you for investigating a politician's positions, and opposing them based on those stated positions and their record on issues, then there is no value to having credibility with you.

:hi:

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

82. Cute.

How I manage to survive for twice your years on DU is a mystery.

I'm not a Green. Never have been. Nice try.

[Two Americas]

75. pack of hyenas

Unbelievable.

[LWolf]

85. I can't tell

if you are referring to the BAR, for having the nerve to say something less than complimentary about Obama,

or about the Obama fans who have packed together to express outrage of any criticism on this thread.

:shrug:

[blindpig]

119. take it from me...

it's the latter.

The cognitive dissonance is gonna shake this place apart in the next 6 months.

One thing fer sure, it's gonna separate the sheep from the goats.

[LWolf]

131. I think you're right. nt

[Two Americas]

123. I'll never tell lol

I don't want them to come after me.

Thanks for posting that.

[geek tragedy]

106. Hyenas rarely eat their own. n/t

[anonymous171]

77. Didn't they endorse McKinney?

SHE MAY BE CRAZY BUT AT LEAST SHE CLAIMS TO BE A PROGRESSIVE!

[LWolf]

83. I don't know.

I didn't pay attention to who endorsed whom.

Did they?

I'm not afraid to say that I like McKinney and think she was treated disgracefully by her former party. THAT gets me almost as many flames as this thread, lol, but I've done it a few times anyway.

DU flames are loud and kind of screechy, but there's no real heat. ;)

[anigbrowl]

78. Dear BAR: thinks that smell bad 'reek'. 'Wreakmeans impose, as in 'wreak havoc'.

I take issue with the destruction the BAR is wreaking on the English language. It reeks of anti-intellectualism.

[LWolf]

84. I found the "wreak" irritating, myself.

I don't know if it reeks of anti-intellectualism. If so, then most of DU does, too, since those kinds of errors are a dime a dozen here.

It's evidence of lazy typing, for sure.

[FlaGranny]

79. Then what the heck are you

doing here? Read the rules of the board. They definitely state that this is a board for support of Democrats and here you are with "concerns" that have no purpose other than to undermine Democrats. Not much different than infiltrations from the right wingnuts. What are you trying to do, "convert" us? Just about all of the Democrats on this board are left of center, but you are left of left of center, and with a handful of others, a tiny minority. No thanks. I'd rather win elections and actually accommplish something. Fringe groups are rarely of consequence, except to alienate others who might agree with them on many issues.

[LWolf]

81. Gee, granny.

Having been here, not quite as long as you but nearly so, I'll bet I'm pretty clear on the rules.

DU still bills itself as a "left-wing discussion board." I get to bring up left-wing issues and concerns. This is one of them.

Obama is no longer a candidate. It's now okay to criticize him.

YOU reread the rules.

[FlaGranny]

147. Yep, you are aware enough

of the rules to avoid getting thrown off, but obviously your main purpose here is to stay just within them and try to undermine the Democratic party. The last time I read the rules - it's been a while - they state the purpose of this board (paraphrased) is to support Democrats. Maybe they changed and they now say the purpose is to support Greens (et al) and oppose Democrats.

[LWolf]

152. Your interpretation is way off.

My "purpose" has nothing to do with the Democratic Party. While I'm a registered Democrat, I'm not a partisan, and I have never pretended to be.

My purpose, as I've clearly stated, repeatedly, and acted on, is to participate on one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet; you know, one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards.

I've always been transparent about that.

[kwassa]

89. "wreaks of filthy rich thieves and gore-covered war criminals. "

Would that be Al Gore?

I'm glad this is an objective statement, without bias.

[Freddie Stubbs]

91. Since you never supported Obama, he certainly doesn't owe you anything

He got elected without your support, so he can probably get reelected without it.

[cali]

92. I love how much Obama pisses off the OP and her ilk

almost as much as how he pisses off her soulmates on the right.

[Freddie Stubbs]

93. You are probably doing something right if both the far right and far left hate you

[cali]

96. they're all essentially the same.

extremists are extremists.

[DerekG]

116. Define the "far left," please

I've always associated the descriptive with Marxist-Leninism.

I'm not a Marxist-Leninist. I'm a struggling Christian who is utterly appalled that Obama seeks to continue the War of Terror, which has morally and quite literally bankrupted this country. (Which is why I didn't vote for him.)

[Freddie Stubbs]

118. Someone who thinks that Obama is right of center is far left

[DerekG]

145. So I'm a Marxist-Leninist?

My mother's gonna be thrilled.

[Two Americas]

133. huh?

I thought he was president of "all of the people" - that is the reason given by people to defend the inclusion of right wing views in our discussions.

Or is he the president of all of the people, except the Left? That would be odd. Especially since that leaves most of the people out of the picture.

[Freddie Stubbs]

161. He will likely ignore the far right and the far left

Those close to the center, on both the left and the right, will have influence.

[Two Americas]

182. the "center" is the far right

It is a lie. It means the center of what the wealthy and powerful few desire, presented in such a way that the working people will go along with it.

That is the "far right" on matters of power and economics, which is what politics is about. A little lip service paid to some liberal-sounding platitudes tossed in is just the proverbial "spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down."

[Freddie Stubbs]

183. If you think that people like Obama and the Clintons are far right, that would make you an extremist

[Two Americas]

184. they are politicians

Don't hide behind them. I am not attacking them.

In a representative democracy, the politicians are not corporate CEOs nor religious leaders. They represent us.

I am not calling the Democratic party politicians far right. I am saying that the calls for the "center" - which a minority of conservatives among us try to force on us, as they attempt to drive out all other points of view - supports the far right, which in political terms as opposed to cultural terms means support for capital over labor, for the investors over the workers, for profits over people.

[LWolf]

136. Is that what it's all about?

Not about issues, not what he does in office, but in perpetual election?

That's not change. That's dysfunction.

[Freddie Stubbs]

162. You have to run a perpetual campaign if you want accomplish your goals

People in the Green party probably do not understand this, as they have never had to actually govern.

[LWolf]

165. I wouldn't know

what people in the Green Party understand, or not, since I've never been a Green, lol.

I do know what I've observed for the 48 years of my life: politicians run perpetual campaigns, which offer a never-ending supply of excuses for why issues can't be addressed or goals accomplished now, and voters live their lives in a perpetual state of "wait until...." that never comes around.

What comes around is another election season, and another fresh batch of reasons to "wait until..."

It's been 30 years since I became an official voter. I've ridden that cycle long enough.

[Two Americas]

185. right

The "perpetual campaign" starts with advocacy, the effort of persuading people, and that is what people here are doing. They have the right to do that without being subjected to a continual barrage of insults and smears and ridicule and disruption.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

99. Of course Obama is center-right

How it is that folks can be confused by this has to do with the fact that the American political spectrum has swung wildly to the right over the last 60 years and many folks have little idea what came before.

If someone can clue me in as to how a political entity that loves the 'free market' can be considered anything other than right of the imagined center I'd be interested in that argument.

And BTW Obama considered a real populist, Paul Wellstone, to be a 'gadfly'.

The attack on the messenger only betrays the weakness of those who ignore and distract from the message.

[cali]

103. only to extremists is he center-right.

just as only to extremist nutcases is he on the far left. I'm not much on labels, but he's pretty clearly center-left, as understood by almost any reasonable person. And no, it has nothing to do with the swinging of the pendulum.

There's far more than the free market to look at in judging Obama's political stances, and since when has he expressed any support for the unfettered free marked? Oh, that's right, he hasn't.

And it's completely wrong to think Obama dissed Wellstone. Here's something he said about Wellstone:

"When I first got to the US Senate, I opened up the drawer of the desk where I was assigned. And it has the names of some of the great senators who have served. They carve their names in their own hand into the desk drawer, and one of those names was somebody who shared with me this belief that change doesn't happen from the top down. A guy named Paul Wellstone..."

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/03/6821

The OP and the rest of the extremists ignore anything that doesn't fit in their sad and close minded little narratives.

Pathetic.

[blindpig]

114. Pretty fuckin' weak.

So, this statement washes away Obama's voting record, his coterie of bankers and war mongers, the golden chains which bind him to Wall Street?

Left means that you are opposed to capitalism. Any deviation from this statement is lame, useless, collaborationist.

Which side are you on?

[cali]

122. pretty fuckin' true, pig. The ADA give him a very high liberal rating

I don't go that far, but his record both in the U.S. Senate and the Illinois Senate certainly supports the contention that he's center-left.

Who the fuck do you think you are pig, that YOU get to define what left means. Grab a fucking clue pig, your definition means nothing.

Idiotic.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

151. Oh please

You are obviously uninterested in acknowledging political ideas in any meaningful way. You use the "I don't like labels" as your cover but it is transparently obvious that what you are uninterested in is exploring anything that relates to political theory so that you can have a clear assessment of what is the right leaning tendencies of most of the US political body. The reason you don't understand this lies specifically in the fact that you care very little about political economy and focus on a few pet issues as you waffle about to defend this or that candidate.

It's also not wrong to say that Obama castigated Wellstone it is a matter of public record. And sorry the link you put forth is no more than political pandering during election season. Where the rubber hits the road the story is quite different.

You are correct in that there is more to looking into Obama's record than simply examining his adoration of the 'free market' though that is rather telling wouldn't you say as it comports with his record that is pro big business every step of the way. What about that do you not understand? That too is in the public record. On foreign policy Obama is downright hawkish. Is that what passes for the center these days? Well in fact it is and it always has been the case. But again you'll need to understand a little history to see how that works.

Essentially you don't want anything to mean anything. It's just a matter of cut and paste 'post-partisan' political goo that defines how you create this fiction of who stands where in some imagined political spectrum that fits your conveniences. That is no more than a thin disguise for identifying with the status quo. And though the status quo may seem to hold a calm exterior it is precisely the case that these are the real extremists who inflict suffering upon multitudes and are responsible for horrific purges throughout history.

[LWolf]

138. Thank you. nt

[SoxFan]

101. Glen Ford is an asshat

He's had an axe to grind with Obama for years, and it's killing him to see Obama's political ascent.

[blindpig]

115. Mebbe he's been paying attention. n/t

[geek tragedy]

105. Ah yes, the WATB purity Green trolls are out.

Maybe Obama should, you know, enact some policy before you people start wetting yourselves.

[LWolf]

139. Who, exactly, are

"Green trolls," and "you people?"

Are you calling me out?

That's a violation of DU rules, of course. It's also ludicrous.

I am not now, and have never been a Green.

Greens, though, aren't "trolls." They are the natural allies of the Democratic Party, at least they should be. I can see why they wouldn't be interested in joining forces if they run into you, though.

[Autonomy]

107. You've convinced me: Obama = Everything Bad

Is it too late to change my vote to Lyndon LaRouche?

[ej510]

109. This brutha is make it plain with mark on sirius left every week.

[LWolf]

140. Yes.

It's not too late to hold his feet to the fire and pressure him to step a little to the left.

Do you have the courage to do that?

[Autonomy]

148. I'm not interested

[LWolf]

153. Then don't respond.

That's the best way to not participate in a conversation that doesn't interest you.

[Autonomy]

158. Ugh, a thread dictator

I choose to mock, thanks.

[LWolf]

166. Mock away.

Mockery doesn't carry much weight, especially when it's based on bullshit.

If you weren't interested, you wouldn't need to.

I may be blunt, and my non-partisan adherence to issues may enrage partisans, but I mean what I say.

Meanwhile, give it all you've got. :popcorn:

[noiretextatique]

112. people are vested in the belief of change

with little reason behind that belief, except perhaps the hope for change. you are pointing out the obvious, but the simple truth is that we will find out what an obama administration will be like very soon. i hope he takes full advantage of this opportunity...i don't care if he's centrist or liberal...i hope he is pragmatic.

[LWolf]

141. At this point,

I hope his "change" doesn't amount to aggressive conservative reform.

:shrug:

[qwlauren35]

121. Fair Enough.

I jumped on the peace-president bandwagon. But I also researched his positions in general, and was happy with them, so I went in with no blinders. I've considered myself a moderate for over 20 years. Obama "works" for me. But he's not going to be everyone's top choice.

I did not hate the "old" McCain, although he was too far right for my taste. It was only the Bush-clone, Palin-picker who frightened me out of my wits. I think I made up my mind to campaign my ass off about 4 years ago, no matter who won the primaries.

I have to admit that having no strong feelings about who won the primaries puts me in a very different place from most DUers. I would have been okay with Hillary. (OK, wasn't keen on John Edwards. But I would have sucked it in and campaigned for him anyway.)

I think that's the irony of being moderate, it's a lot easier to respect the left and the right from where I sit, even though when either side throws mud at the other, I get the most of it.

[LWolf]

142. Talk about irony.

I used to sit exactly where you do, and considered myself a moderate.

My positions haven't changed. I just now find myself on the far left fringe in the United States.

I also did not hate McCain, and I also was appalled by Palin. While I didn't say anything at all about Obama during the GE, I did campaign vigorously AGAINST Palin.

I didn't expect my "favorite" to win any primaries. I just wanted someone who wasn't clearly centrist. I knew I'd lost that hope by last January.

[boppers]

126. "banker's bailout"... "imperial armory" ... "gore-covered war criminals"......

Pretty much says it all.

[SoxFan]

143. Glen Ford actively opposed Obama

He endorsed the increasingly absurd Cynthia McKinney:

http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=681&Itemid=1

That's the functional equivalent of voting for John McCain and Sarah Palin.

[nsd]

146. Why post this bullshit here?

This guy, Glen Ford, supported Cynthia McKinney. He never supported Obama. Fuck him.

ETA: I might also point out that this site is called DEMOCRATIC Underground.

[LWolf]

154. Why post?

1. This is one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards. Left-wing conversations are still allowed.

2. Cynthia McKinney was once a Democrat. It was the despicable treatment by her own party that ended that relationship, and, in my opinion, which I'm allowed to express, the party is diminished by that. I support democracy; that, while I'm a registered Democrat, I'm not a partisan. I see Greens as allies, not enemies, and I've always preferred McKinney to Obama. I've stated exactly that, right here at DU, many times, and to hell with the impotent flames.

3. I never supported Obama. Because he is center-right. I would be okay with his supporters being transparent about that. However, throughout the primaries and on through the present, any criticism of Obama was automatically, here at DU, met with cries of "racism!" I think it's important to point out that the left part of this "left-wing discussion board" can, and many do, disagree with him on principles, having nothing whatsoever to do with race. I think the BAR offers evidence for that.

4. And, finally, while this site is Democratic Underground, I'd point out that it is NOT Obama Underground. Personally, if the Democratic Party is going to retain any relevance at all for the left half of the nation, the left-wing of the party ought to be defending the principles of the left, not caving to a center-right Democrat.

[kevinds13]

149. The OP seems ideologically opposed with himself. LOL

You say you will applaud Obama when he moves to the left, and cite two examples where you have:
"Once, when he said that American students ought to learn to speak a second language.
Again, more recently, when he talked about using some money to create jobs and rebuild infrastructure."

But after 8 years of Bush, he's comparatively a Marxist next to the current administration. I realize comparativism in politics probably does not meet your levels of ideological purity, which goes to show how unrealistic and stubborn you are, but it shows why "the Left" never gets anything done in politics.

Perhaps, if you stopped your puritanical insistence on never changing your leftist positions, you could HELP stop our nation's (and apparently DU's, according to you in your 6 years here) slide to the right.

I'm sure you've heard of the phrase "meet me halfway". Its pertinent here. If you want instant change, start a revolution. If you want real, substantial, lasting change, start working.

Assuming this country is a center-right country (which I generally disagree with, but will use for arguments sake), start to elect center to center-left candidates. Once the pendulum has shifted to make a more moderate nation, or even a center-left one, state electing leftists.

You can't continue to stand on your soapbox, because you are FAILING to get anything done. Compromise is not conformity, its a way to move national opinion over time and create the lasting change we all so desire.

[LWolf]

156. I forgot the 3rd time.

I agreed with his comments about the future family dog, when he suggested a big, rambunctious dog rather than the little dog Michelle suggested. ;)

You need to know more about me before you pontificate about my ideology, lol. Richard Nixon is further to the left than Obama or
GWB; that doesn't mean I'd support him in the WH, were he still living.

The fact that Obama is not as far right from center as GWB or McCain doesn't make him any more "left." Just closer to center.

[Jennicut]

150. Bullcrap. Obama's voting record is very liberal.

If Obama is center right then I am a man and I assure you I am not. This is utterly laughable.

[LWolf]

157. I'm laughing,

but not because Obama is in anyway liberal. Just at your visualization.

:rofl:

[Jennicut]

160. Want proof that I am a woman?

Just kidding. Obama is a liberal according to the United States and its definition of it. He may be center right in more liberal countries but here its a big change from Shrub.

[LWolf]

167. You do have a small point there.

When I look at politics, I look at it globally, not locally.


I'm one of those people who views myself as a citizen of the planet.

[democrattotheend]

168. Geez, what a sourpuss you are!

I can understand your concerns and I share some of them, but how could you not celebrate on Election Night? Just because Obama won't be perfect you think there's no reason to celebrate?

My coworker put it perfectly: if we have a president who pisses us off 25% of the time, isn't that a hell of a lot better than a president who pisses us off 99% of the time?

Even if Obama disappoints you 75% of the time, that's still an improvement that's worth celebrating, IMO. For you to decide on Election Night that nothing's going to change and not celebrate makes it seem like you must not have a very positive outlook on life.

[LWolf]

169. This morning's news is a good illustration of why

I wasn't celebrating.

For me, it wasn't about where we've been. It's about where we're going.

This morning?

Arne Duncan.

I have to live through another 4-8 years of corporate politics destroying my profession, and there is no way I'm buying the disingenuous suggestion that the policies are somehow different than stated, and the agenda is somehow change for the better. If it were, it sure as hell wouldn't be Duncan heading it.

Celebrate? Fuck that.

[democrattotheend]

170. So Obama won't be any improvement over Bush?

Come on, don't you think you are being a little extreme?

And what's so bad about Duncan? My understanding was that unlike some other school chiefs, he managed to enact some reforms without making enemies with the teachers' union.

[LWolf]

177. Of course

he'll be a moderate improvement over bush in some areas.

That's not the point. The point is that being smarter than Bush, which isn't hard to do, and taking a step or two closer to center, which still leaves him to the right of center,

is not the change I wish to see. He didn't pretend any differently, which is why I didn't want him nominated or elected.

I don't expect to see ANY improvement in the destruction of public education. He, and his new Secretary of Education, share the philosophy of the "standards and accountability" movement that has decimated us over the last 12 years in some states, and 7 years at the federal level under NCLB. They both, as a matter of fact, will push aggressive conservative reforms, which are not beneficial to the system as a whole, or to those "left behind" that they, in perfect Orwellian terms, claim to be helping.

Since I'm on the front lines every day trying to reach and help my students while dealing with the constantly increasing mountain of counter-productive mandates, this affects me personally, financially, and professionally. It limits me, it limits my students, and I will not forget or forgive those who had the opportunity to make a positive change and did not do so. Especially when they feather, and further, their political careers on the promise of "change."

[anaxarchos]

171. Glen Ford is a pretty important voice on the Left.

Before creating Black Agenda Report, he was a co-founder of Black Commentator. Before that, he was a co-founder of the America's Black Forum which was the first nationally-syndicated African-American News Interview program on commercial television. Before that, he was a reporter and columnist. He was one of the lone voices speaking in the wilderness during the Reagan years, when so many "left Democrats" were hiding in their bomb shelters. He was one of the first, for example, to expose the truth behind the Reagan Invasion of Grenada, one of the world's smallest countries.

Yes, he supports Cynthia McKinney but he did so way before now, when she was a Democrat. Yes, he is left-wing but so many here claim to aspire to that label.

It is possible to disagree with Glen Ford but, to summarily dismiss him with so much ignorance and arrogance, simply because he may not hold to your choice in American Political Idol?

It is quite a resume that just went under that bus. But, then again, there is an awful lot of important personal and political history under there... and not a lot on the bus itself.

[SoxFan]

172. He supported McKinney AFTER she became a Green

He badmouthed Obama throughout his 2004 senate race, and bitched and moaned about him for four years after he was elected.

Ford is nothing more than a bitter, irrelevant crank.

[anaxarchos]

173. You misunderstand, Mr. Dog.

I said that he supported McKinny while she was a Democrat as well as when she was a Green. He supported her politics, just as he did not support Obama's.

As far as the rest, thank you for making my case. Ford "bitched and moaned". He is a "bitter, irrelevent crank".

Well, you've made quite an argument. Decisive, really...

I'm shamed into silence.

[LWolf]

178. You made an important point.

That he supports the left, the ISSUES, not the parties.

Issues aren't partisan, and issues are the only reason I vote.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

180. That's patently false

Ford has been supporting McKinney for years even as she battled for her seat as a Democrat if you'll remember. Of course she was sabotaged by the corporate wing of the Democratic Party the same wing that has propped Obama up. That means more of the same corporate run America as you can plainly see by the very predictable appointments Obama is giving to his backers. And by backers I mean big business. Ford predicted this and he was correct even if you don't like his "tone."

BTW this is all quite easy to look into so you must not have done any research on the matter and were simply being a reactionary because of some irrational impulse that was driving your political position.

Time to give up the ghost of mythical change and have a reality check. Vilsack is in as Ag Sec and I assure you Monsanto is pleased. Good times huh?

[No Elephants]

181. Because losing to a right wingnut is better than winning from left of center?