What the HELL is wrong with the state of New York?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

Has it become a reverse carpet bagger state?

I "loved" its residency requirements for its first junior senator, who promised not to run for president (wink wink) who had absolutely no connection with New York.
Just as much, I love just how caroline kennedy will become a shoo-in, simply because she is (let's see if I read things here right. Great. A wonderful choice. PERFECT! I Love Caroline! I welcome JFK legacy with open arms!) not saddled with the last name of Pfutzengruebblinger.

WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT! There are millions of people in NY, many of them talented, educated, able, capable, and perfectly suited for higher office. Their only problem is that their last name is not Kennedy.

Fine, Caroline has done some good things. She does not damage her last name, unlike others in her family. She is low key. But this idea that she is a saint, that her genes make her a "legacy" or that give her some greater "right" to be one of the 100 most arrogant, powerful, pampered, people in the world? I say BULLSHIT on that. Give me a fucking break.

How about no more legacies? How about putting the BEST, not the best known, people in places where we need them? Hope that Caroline gets the office? Are you people nuts? OK, She would not be bad, but there are thousands of better, harder working, smarter, and more talented people right now in NYNY, not to mention upstate.

Usually people here are rational. not on this issue, apparently.

[saltpoint]

1. A stupid argument. Sorry, but it is.

To begin with, she might not even get the post.

You can celebrate then. Hang the balloons, and let the booze flow.

Or, she might get the post, in which case New York would be especially capably represented, and so would the other 300 million or so Americans, as the U.S. Senate is not a local office. It is a national and even international office.

I say a qualified, progressive, intelligent woman would serve beautifully in that role.

CKS meets all criteria.

Whose daughter she is is far less the point than what agenda she would advance.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. Qualified, progressive, intelligent woman? Fine. I agree. Let's find one.

who does NOT have the last name of Kennedy.

what would be the harm of putting in some fresh blood in spineless body that has damaged our constitution, even when we are in the majority, infringed upon our rights, and fucked us over for at least a generation? with REID and other democrats supporting it?

This place is named DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. ERGO, we are liberal, creative, and think outside the box. Caroline is anything but.

this is disgusting. blah.

[mwei924]

15. But having the Kennedy name shouldn't disqualify her.

And who is this smart, liberal, attractive woman who's not a Kennedy? Let's find her first.

[WillyT]

20. We Shoud Put An Ad In Craigslist...

:evilgrin:

[saltpoint]

17. Certainly Paterson may follow the model of your advice

but he might just as easily appoint Andrew Cuomo or Caroline Kennedy, both of whom run strongly in polls among likely New York voters for that appointment.

New blood is always fine with me but it should never be the imperative in a choice for public servants. I think you underestimate Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg's contributions, as well as her attributes.

Attorneys can write legislation just fine. Whether or not they are young, whether or not they are famous.

And again, with no Constitutional impediments to her serving, I see no reason, based on the argument of 'famous name as disqualifier' to remove her from consideration.

She wishes to serve. She would bring considerable clout and sustainability to a seat we want to stay blue for many an election cycle. She would be a polite but forceful voice for Obama's agenda and could look a piss ant like Jim Inhofe right in the face and tell him he's out to lunch. I'd phrase it more coarsely, but CKS is a lady.

Sorry. I honor service when I see it. 'Fame' is not the deciding variable here, IMO.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

27. (insert fist hitting self in head image here) CUOMO? KENNEDY?

we truly have become what our forefathers feared. Families are more important than ideas and ideals. Money and recognition trump talent and ability.

yup. all hope is lost. When so many on DU start becoming monarchists, in a sense, then democracy is truly dead in America. Shame on you. Shame on us. There is no chance for change.

[saltpoint]

33. Well I can't do the shame thing with CKS. I'm not sure

where anybody is coming from on that.

I'm weary of grocery-listing her attributes.

The objection appears to be 'fame' as a negative, which I think is a suspect theory.

Or else 'legacy' as a perjorative and impediment to process.

The governor may suprise us all with his choice. The infighting might be so fierce he says,"Well, hell, I can't please anybody with this, I might just as well pick ____. And to hell with anyone who sqawks."

I've typed onto these boards that I like Paterson to begin with and will honor his choice.

But I don't see how fame or legacy is a disqualifying factor in the political arena, in this or any era.

I do see a strong progressive and dedicated woman interested the Senate seat, one of many good candidates.

[verges]

46. So are you saying

that anubody related to the Kennedy's cannot seek public office ever again? That seems a little ridiculous. Granted, having a famous name should not be an automatic qualifier. Nor should it be an automatic disqualifier. Caroline Kennedy has a perfect right to ask to be considered. As much a right as anybody else. Whether the Governor picks her or not is a different matter. But she has as much right to throw her hat into the ring as anybody.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

73. my point is shoving her to the head of the line simply because

she is a Kennedy is foolish.

[verges]

85. I've been reading your posts for a couple of days now.

The general theme is "NO DYNASTY'S". You've been implying that she shouldn't even be considered because she is a Kennedy. All she has done is inform the Governor that she would like to be considered for the job. Paterson, as far as I know, hasn't commented one way or the other. My point is that ANYONE who is Constitutionally qualified, including Caroline Kennedy, can apply for the job. Do you agree with this premise?

[CTyankee]

25. On top of her wonderful qualities, she has the capability of winning

re-election. This is not nothing. It is a real asset that she brings to the table. Please do not get hung up on the fact that she is a Kennedy. Remember that Obama himself wants her. If you doubt his judgment withher then maybe you doubt his judgment otherwise. Is that the case?

Caroline Kennedy has done nothing to earn your disgust. Why on earth do you think this?

[LynneSin]

80. She has the capability of raising the $100million it's gonna take to win TWO senate races

This ain't Delaware or Mississippi or Wyoming - this is one of the most expensive states to run a statewide campaign. And whomever is picked for that seat is going to have to do it TWICE in two years, perhaps even more if he/she has an opponent in the primaries.

I'm guessing whomever is appointed to that seat will need to raise $100million in the next 4 years to keep that seat thru the main election cycle in 2012

[CTyankee]

82. Yes, and our disgust should be aimed exactly where it is deserved: on our

campaign system that literally wastes millions of dollars on political campaigns. I don't think waging a bitter campaign against Caroline Kennedy does that much to cure the problem...

[LynneSin]

79. Yes because god forbid we want to have senators that fight for the working class people

Something that Kennedys have done these past 40 years.

:eyes:

[eleny]

2. You left something out...

Her being a constitutional scholar gives her no credibility.

:sarcasm:

[JuniperLea]

7. Exactly...

She grew up in NY AND is a constitutional scholar... how lame of her to think she can carry on with the family tradition of working for the people of America.

Astounding.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

13. family tradition? FAMILY TRADITION?

America's founding fathers would turn over in their collapsed, dusty graves to hear anything like that. The WHOLE POINT about America was not to create family dynasties, but to create a anti-monarchy, a democratic republic. A body politic that would change with the times, and grow over time. Creating a fucking family tradition is precisely the wrong move at the worst possible time.

Democracies were supposed to be messy, uncontrolled and difficult. And we should have deserved a mini-revolution every generation or so. Selecting semi-capable people simply because they have the "right" last name is asinine, ridiculous, and damaging to the very heart and soul of our grand experiment. For those enamored with Caroline, I am so sorry that you can't see this, that you are so blinded by the last name, that you can't think straight. I'll bet you also cried and bought every newspaper when Princess Di died, too.

damn, this sucks.

[eleny]

40. Like the two Adams presidents

An infamy we've never managed to live down as a nation.

:sarcasm:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

54. twas infamy. J. quincy was pretty bad.

especially compared to John baby.

[eleny]

61. How does Caroline compare in how you regard the Adams presidents?

Take your time. I know you'll need an extension for that shovel handle.

[verges]

48. The point was..

"Constitutional scholar". You seem to feel that it's a terrible thing if parents inspire and instill a responsibility to public service in their children.

It might also be mentioned that Al Gore's father was a Tennessee state senator (I think it was a Senator.) Should he never have sought office?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

58. Hmmm. now's that is a great opp.

Al's father and grand-dad were fairly known to be corrupt machine pols, against whom the olde Mayor Daley could easily been compared. Al came out pretty well, considering. But he's a rarity, not the norm. Richard J's son is probably not going to leave his office by choice, not after Hired Truck, Quarters, and so many more scandals.

What the FUCK is the problem? This country has 310,000,000 people, not counting the so-called illegals, 15,000,000 or more.

[eleny]

63. "What the FUCK is the problem?"

Curiously, I was wondering the same about you.

[verges]

67. But still,

using your metric, he had no right to run in the first place. Just because someone's relative held office doesn't mean that they should be prohibited from seeking office. CKS has as much right as anyone else to ask to be considered. The fact that her name is Kennedy has nothing to do with that. It should neither be an immediate qualifier or disqualifier.

[JuniperLea]

86. Semi capable?

Bullshit

Bigot.

[boppers]

3. Has Pfutzengruebblinger expressed an interest?

Has somebody more experienced, more qualified, thrown their hat in?

[saltpoint]

18. Pfutzengruebblinger's well-qualified, but for the video footage of famr animal orgies.

That's a killer every time.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

22. sorry, that was actually Newt Gringrich, photo-shopped in.

In fact, Newt has a AI program that automatically replaces his face from his Vegas gig with all sorts of political opponents' faces.

[saltpoint]

26. LOL! You'll forgive my naivete, I hope. It's just awful hard sometimes

to tell the difference between farm animals and Republicans.


---
on edit: I guess the main difference is that you can train farm animals to pull shitwagons.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. I suspect that Foley and a few others would pay for the opportunity.

being the fucking hippo-critters that they are.

[saltpoint]

34. Foley at least high-tailed it out of the Congress, while Vitter and Craig

linger on.

And it ain't the wiener play that bugs me. It's the Family Values hippocracy of the GOP. If Vitter wants to do one thing and Craig the other, I have no objections until they stand on the floor of the U.S. Senate and morally condemn others for the private pursuit of sexual pleasure.

Don't tell Jim Dobson I feel this way. You know how sensitve he is.

[ecstatic]

4. I'm rooting for Al Sharpton. She is my second choice :) nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

30. LOL, I needed that laugh.

Unless that was me breaking wind.

[DJ13]

5. Would an unknown be the best for NY?

Even if the person was in the House, they would still be an unknown in the Senate.

Tell me, what was it about Hillary that made you think she would make a good Senator?

Was it her name and connections?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

16. I was pleasantly surprised when early in her career,

she showed up, sans make-up, with hair un-coifed, and told reporters, "Look assholes, I have work to do. leave me alone."

That one moment gave me a glimmer of hope that she would treat that office, a special place, 1 of 100, appropriately. and to be fair, she did OK. Except for FISA, Patriot, Patriot II, FISA II, Iraq, Iran, and a few minor other problems. But all said, she took her job seriously, at least until 2006, when her time was consumed by a run for the White house.

[Muttocracy]

6. Apparently we are the Stepping Stone State and Senators have to be from NYC

I don't know how many of these are NYer comments, but...
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/to-replace-clinton-a-kennedy/#comment

[mwei924]

9. Who's smarter, better than Caroline in NY and could actually win future elections?

Once you add in the electability factor, I'm sure that list shrinks.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

19. you have to be joking.

PLEASE tell me you are joking.

How many Nobel prize winners live in the state? How many fantastic universities exist there? How many scholars, politicians, doctors, lawyers, engineers, and generally really smart, rational people live in New York, whose names are not KENNEDY?

You must be right. New York is filled with stupid, dull, uneducated, untalented, dumb morons who have to import a senator, rather than grow their own. And here, I thought only Alabama, South Carolina and Florida were that dumb.

[mwei924]

21. Caroline Kennedy was born in NY and lived there most of her life.

She has a lot of support in the polls, which is the closest thing you can get to "people's choice" in this kind of situation.

Fine, find me someone who fits all that and see if they're interested in the Senate. If they don't express interest, then your point is completely moot.

[verges]

52. And have these

Nobel winners, engineers, lawyers, doctors etc. submitted their name for consideration with the Governor also? They can you know. If they have, maybe they'll get chosen and not CKS.

[Danger Mouse]

10. Oh HELL no.

[Hippo_Tron]

11. You are correct, the way people view the Kennedys is highly irrational

When you look at JFK's presidency he didn't really have monumental accomplishments and had he lived to serve out his 8 years we don't know exactly what would have happened. But we are absolutely sure that he would've been one of the greats if his time had not been cut short. Same thing with Bobby. Had he even been elected, rationally we don't know how he would've governed. But we just know in our hearts that he was the greatest president we never had.

I'm sure there have been books written on this subject.

[Sebass1271]

12. I have no problem whatsoever Caroline holding this seat

she is knowledgeable and very smart. She has no experience in legislating but guess what? most of new senators don't. So, she can learn quickly, she has the skills, background to set up ground foot as soon as she gets to Washington.

enough said.

[Cha]

14. Don't blame New York..

blame Obama for this one. People want to serve in this new way of doing Governing. Can't say as I blame Caroline Kennedy. She said it herself in her endorsement of Obama.

<snips>

"Sometimes it takes a while to recognize that someone has a special ability to get us to believe in ourselves, to tie that belief to our highest ideals and imagine that together we can do great things. In those rare moments, when such a person comes along, we need to put aside our plans and reach for what we know is possible.

We have that kind of opportunity with Senator Obama. It isn’t that the other candidates are not experienced or knowledgeable. But this year, that may not be enough. We need a change in the leadership of this country — just as we did in 1960.

Most of us would prefer to base our voting decision on policy differences. However, the candidates’ goals are similar. They have all laid out detailed plans on everything from strengthening our middle class to investing in early childhood education. So qualities of leadership, character and judgment play a larger role than usual."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27kennedy.htm...

[quiet.american]

23. As a NY'er, I really don't understand this vitriol against Caroline Kennedy.

Especially without one alternative name being mentioned in this OP.

Granted, I can't quote you chapter and verse about what Caroline Kennedy has done in terms of a political career, but I do know her name often comes up in terms of educational matters in NY, and the comments are always very favorable.

She apparently advised Obama very wisely during his run.

I would love to have her as the next junior senator from New York.

I also think Christine Quinn would make a great senator.

But there is certainly nothing Caroline Kennedy has ever done that would make me rise to the level of virtually marching in the streets against her appointment.

[Christian30]

50. I agree

I'm a NATIVE New Yorker (in case that means something) and while I'm generally against this kind of dynastic appointment, all I've heard since her name was floated is this nasty hostility. New York is in real financial trouble now and the populace has better things to do than fight over a woman whose qualifications are on par with our president elect. Whom I proudly voted for...

[boppers]

66. "qualifications are on par"?

When was she a state senator? A US senator? When did she run a national campaign, state campaign, (or even a district campaign)? What legislation has she ever written? Voted on?

The woman has *zero* public political office qualifications, other than a family name. The same cannot be said about Obama, as he's actually done something.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

72. ah, boppers is a fact - based person, unlike some of caroline's fans here.

never mind, Bop, facts only screw with their minds.

[NashVegas]

78. What Do You Hear On the Ground

and offline?

[BrklynLiberal]

55. As another native New Yorker, I agree with you.

I think that Caroline Kennedy would make a fine Senator, in spite of her last name.

[GodlessBiker]

24. You live in Illinois and you ask what the hell is wrong with New York?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

29. Remember that fun show in our yute?

It takes a thief?

nuff said.

[GodlessBiker]

32. Your energies would be well utilized by fixing Illinois.

[stray cat]

31. Isn't Caroline a NY resident?

And her father wasn't a NY senator that held the position for her. And it doesn't bother me as a NYer that she has lived a life other than pure political animal. I was happy to have Hillary as our senator - I want someone who will work equally hard for us in the senate and someone who is smart enough to be informed and someone outspoken to defend us. I don't care if her last name is Kennedy or something else.

[Karenina]

35. She's a NATIVE NEW YORKER!

She has expressed her will to serve. I believe in her sincerity and do hope Paterson gives it to her ON A FUCKING SILVER PLATTER!

So there. :hide:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

36. Gee. that sounds simple! I'll change my name to kennedy, and

ask the gov for the spot. wow, and the it will be guaranteed! Even better, I've taught US con law to foreign judges and lawyers! So, I have that going for me.

[Karenina]

51. I lived a long time in NYC.

You were there, when? I'm thinking all you "Dynasty" types are either under 40 or simply Just.don't.get.it
Caroline's familial connexions do her no disservice. They are an asset in her support for Obama and LORDY he's gonna need all the help he can get. As far as her personal qualifications, she is fit. We need as MANY constitutional lawyers as we can get to restore what's been compromised.
Forgive me for believing in the little girl whose mama raised her right. I lost my daddy, hers too and my mama did the same.

[verges]

53. Go for it. nt.

[stillcool]

88. Are you a New Yorker?

I assumed you were, but your profile says otherwise. Why would you care so much about who the Governor of New York chooses to fill Clinton's seat? Don't you have your own Senator to be concerned with?

[Hippo_Tron]

37. I'll trade you David Vitter for Caroline Kennedy or Hillary Clinton any day of the week

I wouldn't even care if they had never set foot in Louisiana. There are much worse things than being a carpetbagger.

[LynneSin]

83. Hell I have two dem senators here in Delaware and I'd trade either one for Caroline Kennedy

Mind you, if Joe was still our Senator I wouldn't trade him!

[salguine]

38. Careful, antifaschits—that kin'a talk gets you called a HATER 'round here!

[baldguy]

39. There are a lot of things wrong with NY.

Having a plethora of wonderful Senate candidates isn't one of them.

[stillcool]

41. So all Kennedy's are 'bad'?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

43. still, that's foxian logic.

sorry, but it is.

[stillcool]

44. Foxian? No, that's what I gather...

No Kennedy should be appointed to a vacated Senate seat. It certainly isn't just Caroline, is it? Surely it must be 'all'. And if that is the case, than the Kennedy's are obviously not 'good' for the Democratic Party..otherwise why wouldn't Caroline be acceptable to so many Clinton supporters?

[ProSense]

42. "But this idea that she is a saint"? You mean like Obama is a saint?

Who says she's a saint?

As for hoping she gets the seat: Why the hell can't people hope she gets the seat? It's a little nutty to say that people hoping she gets the seat is nuts.

Rep. Louise Slaughter has endorsed Caroline Kennedy.

[stillcool]

45. It's so primary-ish...

first it was the VP..then it was the SOS..now it's the Senate seat? Will it never end? It would be so much better if the attack weren't en masse, with the same type of language used in the same manner.

[saltpoint]

47. Always, there is a difference between common praise and hagiography.

There is much to admire in CKS. I cast common praise to a model of public service, and of personal dignity, which I feel she has displayed for some time now.

Tonight, Peter King is in his basement, all the lights out, drinking double martinis, hoping against hope that Caroline Kennedy is not appointed to that seat. King wants that seat, and while we think King's a weasel, he does appear to be the strongest GOP candidate in 2010 for that job.

I see no reason why we should make it any easier for him.

IMO no Republican would take on Caroline Kennedy if Paterson appoints her. Or, they'd field some token yahoo from someplace just to fill in the ballot slots. She'd kick the crap out of any Republican in 2010, and they know it.

Peter King knows it, too, and by now he's on his third martini.

Bloodline in the Bushes yields no record of people-based public service, as there is none at the source.

It's quite a damn bit different with the Kennedys.

[BrklynLiberal]

56. Very well said! the last thing I would want is Peter King to be the Sen from NY!

[saltpoint]

57. Hey there. Nice to run into you these days.

I hope as the days go on you'll post any updates and insights from right there on the front lines!

I sure like your Governor, BrklynLiberal. I think he's smart, crafty, liberal, and funny.

[BrklynLiberal]

64. I believe he is underestimated. It is always an advantage to be underestimated.

[saltpoint]

65. I'm grinning, reading that. Thank you. Agree -- the less Giuliani

thinks of Paterson, the greater Paterson's advantage is over Giuliani.

Jesus, but I can't stand Rudy Giuliani.

[BrklynLiberal]

68. Gawd! Giu911ani? What a piece of self-absorbed, egotistical s**t.

I cannot believe that there are still people out there that "admire" him and think he did such a great job for NYC. I have found that all the people who say that live somewhere other than NYC.
I don't know anyone personally that does not hate the man.

[saltpoint]

69. If you don't know anyone personally who doesn't hate Giuliani, then

by god you're hanging around the right people!

Carry on!

[BrklynLiberal]

70. Thanks!

:thumbsup: :hi:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

59. Ahhh. The real issue. Gin or vodka? It's important.

[saltpoint]

62. It is important, but we're long past the hour of

such distinctions.

King is into double figures by now on those martinis. It could be gin, or vodka, or both, or horse piss.

He's 3, 4, maybe 5 sheets to the wind. Poor Peter King. He internalizes EVERYTHING.

[rosesaylavee]

49. I'm currently living in the Glass House called Illinois

so I am keeping my stones by my side tonight.

[AllentownJake]

60. I live in PA you could do worse

My one Senator invented the magic bullet theory and spends half his time investigating the New England Patriots my other is a pro-life democrat who is the son of a Govenor (I love him except for his abortion stance)

Point is you could do worse.

Make a deal you take Specter we'll take Caroline :-)

[WinkyDink]

76. Let's pre-emptively give them Tweety, too! :)

[LynneSin]

81. Seriously - I have two dem senators in Delaware and I'd toss either aside for Caroline Kennedy

and trust me Joe Biden is working on his own dynasty with the appointment of Ted Kaufman to replace him in the senate. The assumption is that Ted will hold the seat for two years until Joe's son Beau Biden can run in 2010. Only reason Beau wasn't appointed now is because he's serving in Iraq.

BTW, Bob Casey Jr. may be 'pro-life' but the guy has had one of the most liberal voting records in the senate from the past two years AND I was pleasantly surprised when he voted against some of Bush's activist judges. You take away Bob's stance on choice (which the guy is ok with Birth Control & EC and even stated that there are enough laws on the book) you have a pretty darn liberal senator.

[cooolandrew]

71. Considering the culture of corruption the more detached from the DC the better she can look after>

Teddy too, it seems very fitting to me. THeir life's work has spoken for the people. WOuld of had no grumbles had RFK ran for the seat why the never ending animosity it's OTT. No-one funded her so the delegates didn't overturn public will and financing. Hillary was behind even at full votes it seems that simple to me. Even the inside reporting said they knew that mathematically their campaign was over by numbers at super tuesday but kept running anyway.

[dkf]

74. And can each of these millions of people raise the funds necessary to run for NY Senator and win?

I think that shrinks your eligible pool considerably.

[WinkyDink]

75. Are you from NY? If not, why do you care? Somebody is always "more" of whatever than another.

[Freddie Stubbs]

77. Hillary did not promise not to run for President

During her first campaign she promised that she would finish her six year term, and she kept that promise. She made no such promise when she ran for reelection in 2006.

[Beacool]

90. You are absolutely right,

but around here the Clintons are only a tad less hated than Bush, et al. Therefore, anything bad that can be ascribed to either of them will be done.

:eyes:

[sohndrsmith]

84. how is a Kennedy's viability for the vacant Senate seat any more or less of a

"legacy" than a Clinton being appointed Sec of State?

Which one is or isn't a legacy - or - what?

I'm thoroughly confused...

[Rowdyboy]

87. When the last Bush permanently retires from any public office I'll consider it....until then

we need to use whatever it takes to keep control.

[EFerrari]

89. That's right. Having a good name, money, a network and public regard

can only hurt a Democrat in a campaign.

Being an accomplished good manager on the bar in NY and DC can only spell trouble.

Being among high powered people your whole life cannot possibly prepare you to deal with the Senate.

Being a friend of a sitting president points to disaster for the people you represent.

:wtf:, NY?

[S_E_Fudd]

91. Pretty ballsy coming from someone from Illinois...nt

[Sex Pistol]

92. What is wrong with New York? It is controlled by New York City.