For those that have been attacking Obama over Rick Warren

[NJmaverick]

I suggest you read Obama's book, The Audacity of Hope. If you don't have time to read the book, here is a good summary

http://www.wikisummaries.org/The_Audacity_of_Hope

Obama is staying true to his ideals and commitments. Here is the summary for Chapter 4, which seems to be a good one to start with


Chapter 4: Politics
In this chapter, Obama continues his discussion of the ways in which the political process itself makes it difficult for politicians to remain true to their values. He recounts his awkward early encounters with potential donors, as well as the pitfalls associated with seeking out the endorsements of special interest groups. Both of these groups often regard their support as a guarantee that the candidate will unfailingly endorse their pet issues. However, in order to increase the efficacy of the political process, Obama asserts that political candidates should not vow their loyalty to any special interest group. While he regards it as acceptable and perhaps even inevitable that some general promises of support and ideological compatibility are necessary to attain the funding and endorsement necessary to mount a successful campaign, Obama contends that politicians must instead pledge to carefully consider each issue and proposed bill as it arises, on an individual, case-by-case basis. He also exhorts his colleagues to loosen their grip on the trappings of power in order to foster the kind of dynamic, discursive government that best serves the needs of the constituency.

[GarbagemanLB]

1. I'd bet 95% of those surprised by this choice have never even picked up his book.

[otohara]

46. Ok, Let's Bet

post a poll, and see those of us who are not happy with the choice of Warren are just a bunch uninformed, non-readers.

or keep pulling statics out of your ass.

[NJmaverick]

55. I will take his side of the bet

Ignorance has been on full display the past couple of days.

[Solomon]

74. Indeed.

[AZBlue]

73. And I bet 90% of them never really listened to him during the campaign.

[nichomachus]

2. Listening to people and reaching out to them

are not the same as putting them on a pedestal.

That's the problem. He can confer with Warren all he wants. When he lets Warren speak for him -- and that's what this is really about - - that's when the trouble starts.

[TheWraith]

6. It's a 2 minute invocation, not a cabinet post. Perspective, folks. nt

[NJmaverick]

If people did that, they wouldn't be any more rants and flying off the handle

how would freepers amuze themselves? I mean they are enjoying watching the collective meltdown here.

[nichomachus]

38. It's way more than a two-minute invocation

and if you don't understand that, you're really missing the point.

The inauguration is an extravaganza of symbolism -- everything, down to the bible the candidate uses, is fraught with symbolism.

Imagine if Obama, as some wingers have suggested, took his oath with his hand on the Koran. What do you think the reaction would be? "Oh, it's just a book and he only had his hand on it for 30 seconds."

Putting Warren as the lead person to speak -- even before Obama says a word -- sets the tone. And the person who thought of that is tone deaf.

[leftstreet]

11. It'll be like an endorsement of Warren

EVERYONE knows who Obama is.

Not many know who this fundy nutjob is.

But they will soon...

[11 Bravo]

27. Then is the selection of Joseph Lowery for the benediction a total repudiation of Warren?

[endarkenment]

32. no it equivocates supporting human rights with opposing them

as if these are two equally valid policy positions. They aren't.

[leftstreet]

33. Lowery isn't and won't be getting all the media attention n/t

[polmaven]

36. We don't know yet

what Warren's words will be during his prayer. If he takes the time to rail against GLBT, then I will absolutely agree with you that the president elect needs to apologize. I doubt that will happen though. I don't think he will say anything controversial, so the "many" who are not as politically active as are we will hear nothing unusual.

I will hold my "judgment" of the PE's performance until after he begins to HAVE a performance.

[nichomachus]

39. What he says on that day is unimportant

It's what he represents and what he's done that are the problem.

[leftstreet]

40. Everyone will want this creep's books, etc.

An Obama endorsement is teh golden.

[nichomachus]

41. Bingo

What this choice does is say "This guy is worth listening to." It doesn't get any clearer than that.

[jberryhill]

69. Okay - how many preacher's books have you bought because they gave a prayer at a public ceremony? /n

[jberryhill]

68. "I don't think he will say anything controversial"

Why do you suppose that is?

It's because he "knows better" than to express views like that in a national forum.

Operant conditioning is the technique of rewarding a desired behavior until it becomes a dominant behavior.

[Maven]

3. SOPHISTRY - see the post above mine ^^^

[Bucky]

4. So people for civil rights are a special interest & those opposing them are not

[NJmaverick]

8. I am sorry, how many openly gay advisors does Obama have on his

transition team? I didn't hear you.

[Bucky]

42. I don't know, but I can count the openly anti-civil rights preachers on his podium

And the headcount is "one too many."

By the way, what does the number of his gay advisors matter? I'm a pro-gay straight man and I'm insulted by this choice. Why does that bother you so much?

[BlooInBloo]

5. Classifying civil rights as a "special interest" is pretty shitty...

Although it looks as though it's the OP who's doing that, rather than Obama. (Mis-applied excerpt.)

In any case, as I've said all along, this is the #1 issue we have to work on Obama on.

[NJmaverick]

13. Did you read his book?

or do you favor simply speaking in ignorance?

[BlooInBloo]

15. Yes. Next question?

[GarbagemanLB]

17. Did you understand it?

[NJmaverick]

21. Do you find it ironic that your anger toward Obama for associating with

"a gay hating homophobe" is matched by freepers that are mad at Warren for associating with "a baby killer". Looks like the freepers do not have a monopoly on intolerance and hyperbole.

[SidneyCarton]

7. Give it up Nomad, Obama has been declared the new GD/GDP antichrist

didn't you get the memo?

[endarkenment]

26. The memo says this was wrong and stupid.

but go ahead and keep making light of the fact that human beings have had their basic rights removed and denied.

[SidneyCarton]

29. Or maybe I merely mock the histrionic outrage that dominates here at DU.

[endarkenment]

31. oh of course, another admonition to shut the fuck up and sit down

thanks. I'll take it under consideration.

[SidneyCarton]

34. Did I tell you to shut up and sit down?

Or did I just say that knee-jerk reactions and vehement expressions of outrage over empty gestures are worthy of mockery.

The evangelicals get a prayer, not a cabinet seat. They get one guy to pray at the inaugeration, that's all. Unless you ascribe to Mr. Warren immense supernatural power, or expect him to launch an anti-gay pogrom from the steps of the Capitol, then all this is is rage against a symbolic gesture.

[endarkenment]

37. no you merely 'mock histrionic outrage'.

[PVnRT]

50. Talk about whining...

:eyes:

[SidneyCarton]

57. You're right...

I should just STFU and get with the DU "party line"

Be outraged at the nontroversy du jour or you're a bigot, freeper and corporatist whore...

Well, you caught me, please alert so they can send me my granite badge of honor.

[PVnRT]

60. No, the gays and their supporters need STFU, apparently

You poor little victim, you. I thought the Jews had it bad in the Holocaust. What you're going through is just unimaginable.

[SidneyCarton]

62. Now who's overreacting.

I'm not invoking the Holocaust.

Good grief, you're right I'm just not pissed enough, does this work for you?

THAT GODDAMN TURNCOAT OBAMA! HE SOLD US ALL DOWN THE RIVER AND THEN THREW US UNDER THE BUS, AND BACKED OVER US! WE ALL NEED TO MARCH ON WASHINGTON RIGHT FUCKING NOW! WE'LL IMPEACH THAT DINO BASTARD BEFORE HE HAS A CHANCE TO TAKE AWAY ANY MORE RIGHTS BY ALLOWING ANY MORE PEOPLE WE DISAGREE WITH HAVE A PODIUM FROM WHICH TO SPEW FORTH HATRED AND BIGOTRY!!!! GAAAH! I'M SO PISSED I COULD PUKE BRIMSTONE!!!!!1111!!!!!!

:puke:

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

Is that sufficiently outraged for you? May I be allowed go back to my ho hum life now, or should I denounce my parents to the nice ideological policeman on my way out.

[PVnRT]

64. Oh, spare me

Just add me to your ignore list, ass. Maybe if all you whiny little shits wouldn't cry and moan whenever someone criticizes something St. Fucking Obama does, you wouldn't hear it.

Go on telling the queers to shut the hell up and get over it. It's very productive of you.

[SidneyCarton]

70. I'm not telling you to shut up, I'm asking you to think.

As that seems difficult for you, and since you have asked me so nicely...

I will be glad to put you on Ignore.

[Justyce]

9. Obama's never made a secret of the fact that he opposes gay marriage,

as well as the fact that he was a pro-free-trader, etc. It always fascinates me when the outrage strikes on DU over subjects that Obama has always been very straight-forward about. He's not a far-leftist, regardless of how the media tried to portray him during the election.

[ronnykmarshall]

63. Obama also said it should be left up to the states.

My state legalized gay marriage.

Warren and his fellow

BIGOTS

got Prop 8 on the ballot.

Obama AND Biden opposed Prop 8.

Warren and his fellow

BIGOTS

got Prop 8 PASSED.

Obama gives

BIGOT

Warren a prime spot at the Inauguration.

Do you understand why we are pissed off?

[Starry Messenger]

65. Damn right.

What is it, the quadratic equation? Is an illustration needed, with stick figures or something?

[PVnRT]

66. Evidently not. You're supposed to just shut the fuck up and quit whining.

WE must make compromises, not the bigots. Get with the program.

[endarkenment]

10. Human rights are not negotiable nor are they a special interest.

Nor does anything from the above quote justify putting homophobic asshat bigot warren front and center for the inauguration.

Human rights are not a pet issue and claiming that they are is a freaking insult. You are not the first to make this claim here, which is a truly sorry statement about DU.

[NJmaverick]

14. You sound just like the freepers only they are pissed that Warren

would appear with a baby killer. You and the freepers clearly have some common ground, when it comes to intolerance and hyperbole for those that disagree with you.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

19. That "disagreement" directly affects civil rights.

We're not talking about tax policy here. :eyes:

[NJmaverick]

25. On the other side they consider it a matter of life and death

if you are happy with people calling you a murder for supporting abortion...

It comes down to who is the bigger person willing to reach across the divide and with stand the petty and nasty partisan arrows of their own side.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

30. Calling me a "murderer" isn't taking away anyone's civil rights.

[endarkenment]

22. intolerance and hyperbole?

right. As I said, claiming that this is a pet issue is massively insulting.

[AlCzervik]

12. People that want equal rights are a special interest group now?

[NJmaverick]

18. Religious tolerance is a bad thing now?!?!?!

Two can play that silly game:eyes:

<<He concludes that faith could serve as a common ground for future collaboration and cooperation between the two parties, and that tolerance and respect for religious diversity is of paramount importance>>

[AlCzervik]

20. Warren has compared homosexuals to rapists and child molesters-common ground that.

[endarkenment]

24. So put Rev Fred Phelps up there too.

Why not?

[grantcart]

16. I suggest you read more on Rick Warren

I am one of Obama's strongest supporters. I also believe that he should reach out to people who are conservative, including conservative Christians, including conservative Christians active in the Church.


Rick Warren does not represent that. He is working outside of the Church and IMHO is typical of the type of pastor that is destroying the fabric of the Church. He went to a Seminary that places itself outside of ecclesiastical discipline and he establishes a Church outside of denominational discipline.

If he wanted to build a bridge to conservative Evangelical Christians he could have invited someone like Rev. Richard Cizik.


Inviting Rick Warren is simply building a bridge to Rick Warren.


In addition to his anti gay bigotry he is an anti intellectual self promoter who shuns Church connections so that he can continue to stand as a single entity defining his own theological agenda without the responsibility of any heirarchy.


We don't need to build bridges to stupid.

[jobycom]

23. I don't have to read Obama's book to know this is wrong. You think the homophobes who gain legitimac

from watching one of their own given a place of prominence at Obama's inauguration have read his book? Who cares what his book says or how he or anyone else justifies this. The president-elect of the United States has chosen an avowed bigot to preside over his inauguration. Yeah, it's one thing, and no, it doesn't mean Obama is evil. But he's wrong on this, and he needs to be told he's wrong, and a call to unity in his book is no justification for it.

I'm all for building bridges, but I'm against jumping in the river and drowning to show those on the other side that we want a bridge.

[NJmaverick]

28. No you are not for building bridges

you share George Bush's view on reaching across the aisle. Basically you will welcome anyone that sees things your way, and that's it.

[jobycom]

44. Don't cast someone else's sins on me.

I'm always getting yelled at around here for being too tolerant, so don't you try that nonsense with me. This isn't reaching across the aisle, this is surrendering completely to someone with no intention of even thinking about crossing the aisle. This is telling the other side that their prejudice, their hatred, is acceptable to us. Martin Luther King built bridges, but he didn't do it by telling the southern sheriffs beating the crap out of him that they were justified in doing so.

[NJmaverick]

49. I didn't cast them, you did

[jobycom]

72. No, you did.

We can do this all day.

[Fleshdancer]

35. The gay rights movement is doing exactly what it should be doing

If history has taught us anything, it's that you don't gain civil rights by asking for them, you have to fight for them. Whenever you see an injustice, you speak out against it, no matter how small. It doesn't end or stall just because your guy won the Presidency.

Obama's book could include the most tolerant, inclusive messages ever written but I don't see how that should keep anyone from voicing their opinions over the Rick Warren issue.

[Bucky]

43. Thank you. Too many DUers are whining about the fact that others are protesting

Or maybe they're protesting about us whining. I don't mind someone arguing with me that it's not that bad a choice--this is a discussion board after all. The ones who bother me are the ones who keep attacking any of us for even speaking our minds on the topic.

There's a difference between arguing with me and telling me to shut up and quit arguing. We can disagree without being disagreeable. I'm a radically pro-Obama Democrat; that doesn't take away my right to be royally pissed about this insult to gay community.

(on edit) I should add here that I am straight and have very few gay friends at the moment. This is really not a question of gay rights. It's a question of civil rights; it's a question of inalienable rights. I honestly have yet to hear of any one single "gay right"--with the possible exception of the preamble to the Declaration of Independence which mentions the right to pursue your gaity.

[jobycom]

45. Nod. nt

[Zuiderelle]

53. Thank you, Gloria!

[Zenlitened]

47. Did you realy need to start a new thread...

... to re-hash the same vapid arguments, pretzel-logic and double-speak that failed so miserably in your previous thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7996867

[NJmaverick]

48. Did you really need to post another post that was totally devoid

of fact, logic or reason?

[Zenlitened]

58. Well, that was pretty much my question to you, wasn't it?

"Did you really need to post another post that was totally devoid of fact, logic or reason?"

[54anickel]

51. I believe that to be a matter of opinion. Take the last sentence of your snippet,

"He also exhorts his colleagues to loosen their grip on the trappings of power in order to foster the kind of dynamic, discursive government that best serves the needs of the constituency."

JMHO, but Warren's supposedly huge following and this big tent idea I keep hearing seems to equate to that "trappings of power". I fail to see how elevating a leader who is such a vocal bigot when it comes to human rights issues for GLBT can be seen as "best serves the needs of the constituency". The days of hand-holding those who still cannot see this as an equal rights issue are long past. Honoring Warren in this way seems to perpetuate the bigotry, by sweeping it under the rug while claiming to be inclusive at the expense of those being discriminated against.

The churches can continue their debates or agree to disagree on this issue until the cows come home for all I care. Our government, however, cannot continue to deny the GLBT community equal rights nor give what could be interpreted as an endorsement or legitimization of such a discriminating thought process.

[Zuiderelle]

52. For those of you accusing us of "attacking" Obama over this...

Try reading more about Warren's incredibly hateful and homophobic opinions on gay people.

[NJmaverick]

54. Why? It will not change how wrong those attacks are?

Those attacks are no better than the freepers attacking Warren for being willing to appear with a "baby killer". Closed minded extremism is never a good thing.

[Zuiderelle]

56. Criticism and disappointment with his choices are not "attacks"

But you're right, Warren's closed-minded extremism is definitely not a good thing. It's a horrific thing. And it's definitely something that Obama should reject. But, clearly he does not.

[NJmaverick]

59. So is there a list of what intolerant hypbole is acceptable

and which is not?

[Zuiderelle]

61. I have no idea what you just said, as it doesn't relate at all to what I said.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

67. Who fucking cares? Do you think "he said it in a book" means it's a good thing?

[1776Forever]

71. And you don't think the "Evangelicals" aren't a special interest group? Who is he pandering to here

I am very disturbed by this pick and what it "means" to the GLBT community.

Why pick this man who called gay members of our party who believe that their rights were invaded by saying that members of his (Warren's) church should vote for Prop 8 because he believes that gay marriage is akin to incest, child rape and polygamy!

[IndianaGreen]

75. Human rights are NOT a "pet issue!"

And the right to marry is the most fundamental right of all!

The audacity of bigotry and insensitivity was to invite Rick Warren!

[Neshanic]

76. Looks like 18,000 Californians will be buying it since they will have the extra time

maybe not being married an all.