The primary misconception causing emotions about the Warren invocation

[usregimechange]

The idea that you can stop bigotry by shunning and cussing at it. You invite it in, educate it, and teach it through example about the errors of its ways. It is why violent opposition is so ineffective at producing social change. The world's really great leaders know this.

I also firmly believe that Obama will create the Supreme court that guarantees the freedom to marry for every American. That is what I care about.

[polichick]

1. But you DON'T honor it.

[EFerrari]

2. The only way we have ever stopped bigotry in this country is through the Supreme Court

legislation and law enforcement. But, thanks for playing.

[Clio the Leo]

5. I wasn't aware that we'd stopped it. If we have.....

.... then why am I still experiencing it? Some folks missed the memo.

[EFerrari]

Some folks read too quickly. I never said it was ALL stopped.

But, that's okay.

:)

[Clio the Leo]

21. And *I* am saying......

.... that legislation didn't stop bigotry ... it merely made it illegal.

You know what hampered? Education.

[EFerrari]

25. Maybe. I'm not as sure as you are that evidence is in. n/t

[usregimechange]

7. And...

[EFerrari]

12. Right. People had to get hurt and injured and dead. That's right.

[usregimechange]

17. It is effective not right.

[Critters2]

14. And just for clarity, think of the other end of that firehose

as being in Rick Warren's hands.

[usregimechange]

22. I don't care about him, just the public watching and learning from his mistake

[Critters2]

23. What? nt

[Solon]

3. Don't give a posterchild for such attitudes a fucking pulpit to preach from...

even if the preaching has nothing to do with that asshole's bigotry, its still elevates that bigotry to being a legitimate point of view.

OH, and I will and do shun bigots, quite actively, or I cuss them out, I have no patience for assholes.

[usregimechange]

10. Do they change their minds if you do it really well?

[Solon]

15. I'm not interested in changing their minds, I'm interested in kicking them to the fringes of...

society. Let them fester in the same cesspools where the current incarnation of the KKK, Aryan nations and other hate groups go. Either that or shame them into silence, because that would be just as well.

[usregimechange]

28. Yes, it would be just, my point is that it wouldn't work as well

[Solon]

32. Work well for what? Civil rights are NOT going to be handed to GLBT people...

by bigots.

[usregimechange]

42. True, a good lot of them will need to change their minds

[laconicsax]

4. Honoring bigots is not "educating" bigotry in any way, shape, or form.

[glitch]

20. Well said. Hopefully more people will get that distinction in the days ahead. nt

[usregimechange]

29. You can not educate someone who is not at the table

[laconicsax]

35. There's no table involved here, literally or metaphorically.

You also can't educate someone who bases their bigotry on what they perceive to be their 'knowledge of the mind of God.' Warren and those like him KNOW that God supports their bigotry and nothing will EVER change that. They spend their lives dedicated to the cause of 'saving' everyone who disagrees with them because they KNOW that all those who disagree with them are condemned to eternal hellfire unless they can show us the error of our ways.

Did the civil rights movement work because everyone sat down and had a nice orderly discussion about how it was important that everyone has equal protection under the law? No. The change took place because Congress and the courts took action over the objections of the racist majority, parts of which still haven't accepted the change.

[crappyjazz]

6. Violent opposition

please expand

[usregimechange]

26. a form of ineffective opposition

[crappyjazz]

31. cute

I'm wondering where you see violent oppostion to this Warren thing?

[Clio the Leo]

8. kick. NT

[tekisui]

9. IF Obama makes it clear in his Inauguration Speech the importance

of equal rights for everyone, namely GLBT rights, with Warren still on the stage, this may fly.

[uponit7771]

16. +1 !!!

[glitch]

24. That would be a sweet recovery from what appears at present to be a mistake.

Added advantage: exploding heads from the far right. But I doubt it will happen, sadly.

[dflprincess]

30. If Obama claims to endorse GLBT rights while giving this bigot a place of honor

he's going to come off as a hypocrite.

[laconicsax]

38. He's already a hypocrite.

He's already given one bigot a place of honor and has stated several times that he does not support marriage equality, going as far as to say this about Prop. 8 days before the election:

"I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman."

He said he was against prop. 8 ONLY because it was a constitutional amendment.

But that's ok, he's a "fierce advocate" for LGBT equality, so long as that equality doesn't include actual equal rights.

[jberryhill]

36. Ding!

[Warren Stupidity]

11. I know stupidity when I see it.

'nuff said.

[enough already]

13. How does giving this asshole the biggest stage in the world 'teach' him anything?

It's rewarding a fucking bigot. It's enabling the prick and his bigotry, not changing him.

[usregimechange]

19. He is reaching out his hand to the opposition and will win far more converts by doing so than...

calling them names.

[EFerrari]

27. Those are the choices?

I don't think so.

Between putting this bigot on the stage and calling him names, there are many choices, including inviting him and his as guests -- which, given his history of hating Americans, is already stretching goodwill to include enabling destructive behavior.

[Sebastian Doyle]

18. There's a difference here

I don't think anybody is saying that Obama should tell Rick Warren he's a complete piece of shit and refuse to ever be in the same room with the man, say for example in the context of some forum on religious issues.

But this is the invocation at a Presidential inaguration. The intention of the speech is to ask for God's blessings on the day, and on the new President. And with that comes the implication that the President and the minister chosen to give that blessing have a similar view of God and religious matters.

Rick Warren believes that gays are sinners against God, and he personally backed a ballot measure to take away their civil rights, because he believes GOD wanted him to do so.

THAT is why he is completely unacceptable for this role.

[moondust]

33. If you want to reach out to somebody

you invite them to the White House for tea and let the cameras in. You don't have to put them front and center at a historic event largely celebrating the progress of freedom and equality.

[jberryhill]

37. You make him sit on a stage and smile while *you* make your point

Warren is going to give a non-sectarian prayer.

Obama is going to give a much longer speech - and Warren is going to have to sit there and smile.

[moondust]

39. You're suggesting this is about

humiliating or upstaging somebody? I think not. The cameras are not going to show much if anything of Warren while Obama is speaking anyway.

[jberryhill]

40. It's a lot more subtle than that

...but Warren is not going to be making political points in a bland non-sectarian "bless this country and help this guy run it" prayer. It's not a matter of getting a reaction "money shot". But when Obama does mention protecting the rights of everyone - everyone - it's not as if anyone who gives a flip about Warren one way or the other is going to forget he's sitting right there.

[Jamastiene]

34. Who has been violent?

Who is advocating violence?

Where do you see violence?

[usregimechange]

41. It was a comparison, i.e. as effective as violence, as in not very

[PVnRT]

43. I'll ask this for the fifth or so time today

The inauguration has enormous symbolic importance, and the people asked to speak at it have enormous symbolic importance. Why do some so intentionally divisive? Why not meet with him and other religious leaders another time? Do people really think this is suddenly going to give all the fundies warm fuzzies?