Rick Warren isn't an evil man

[Cali_Democrat]

He has helped to fight AIDS, poverty and global warming. He's just misguided on some other issues.

Obama is doing exactly what he said he would do before he was elected. He said he wants to bring the country together and that's exactly what he's doing by inviting Rick Warren to give his invocation.

Obama can be friendly with Rick Warren without having to agree with him on every issue.

I have no problem with Obama inviting Rick Warren to give his invocation.

[MadBadger]

1. Wait a minute

:popcorn:

Continue

[hlthe2b]

14. Here we go...

Donning flame proof suit, moving away from the 'puter' and skewering a "weanie" to roast as the flames proceed....

[mindwalker_i]

44. We need a marshmallow smiley

[XemaSab]

69. .

[mindwalker_i]

70. That is just totally awesome!

Thanks!

[XemaSab]

77. You're welcome!

:D

[roguevalley]

107. misguided implies no information on a topic, trainable. This man knows what

he is doing and he's doing it. His intentions are cruel and mean and calculated and personally malice driven so he therefore fits the bill as evil.

[Seen the light]

2. "He's just misguided on some other issues."

:rofl:

That's one way of putting it.

[Ex Lurker]

67. that's pretty much what Gavin Newsom said on Olbeman's show tonight n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

3. Bigots are pretty much evil in my book

There's lots of people working for AIDS and poverty, that aren't homophobic, sexist and anti-semitic.

And, I mean, Hitler loved dogs. So he couldn't have been that bad, right?

[IndianaJones]

4. David Duke gave to the United Way. nt.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Hitler cried when his dog Blondie died

so what? That doesn't prove anything!

Warren fights AIDS? He opposes the distribution of condoms in Africa and elsewhere to prevent AIDS.

[EFerrari]

28. Exactly. He fights poverty but not the choice that keeps women out of poverty.

Rick Warren can kiss my entire @ss. Oh, and Hitler collected art, too. He was sensitive!

[autorank]

46. I agee

I agree with you. This Warren is a Jerry Falwell lite, a bigot for those who don't like to think
that they're bigoted.

[LooseWilly]

94. Don't forget that Hitler was also a vegetarian...

[votetastic]

142. No, that's a myth..

Hitler ate sausages. I don't know any vegetarians who eat sausages.

[ret5hd]

151. Well, he did make the trains run on time!

[Solon]

6. Homophobes are just as evil as racists, if you can't see that, you don't belong here. n/t

[totodeinhere]

61. Would Obama belong here then? Today Obama said the same thing the OP said in so many words. n/t

[Solon]

63. No he wouldn't, only those who support Same Sex Marriage are welcomed here. n/t

[totodeinhere]

68. Then why did the DU admins use DU to raise so much money for Obama?

You are saying that they were trying to help get someone elected who wouldn't even be welcomed to post here? I really find that hard to believe. After all, his opposition to gay marriage was well known throughout the campaign. Yet Obama was enthusiastically supported by most DU posters as well as Skinner. I am getting confused.

[elshiva]

72. I voted for Obama and I'm proud, but he is wrong about this issue.

All people deserve equal rights. He is wrong to be against gay marriage. He is wrong to support and appease Warren. Homophobia is a serious problem as racism.

[totodeinhere]

74. I agree he is wrong on this issue. However, I don't think that it rises to the level...

where he should be tombstoned from DU if he posts here. But that's what some others seem to be saying, and I call bullshit on that.

[elshiva]

80. Tombstoned ONLY if he makes homophobic comments like

"I am against gay marriage."

[totodeinhere]

90. OK, I get your point.

You are saying that in other venues, he can say he opposes gay marriage, which he has done. But you would only support tombstoning him if he specifically said that in the DU forum.

There is some logic to that.

[elshiva]

97. In real life you don't tombstone people.

Opposing gay marriage in any venue is unacceptable.

[Critters2]

103. Then he would be tombstoned.

Because he is against marriage equality. He's never made a secret of this.

[DUlover2909]

131. I don't think Obama really opposes gay marriage.

I don't think McCain really opposes gay marriage. I do not oppose gay marriage. It's political. I don't think Rick Warren has any business being anywhere near the inauguration. I disagree with the choice by Obama, but he's the politician, not me. He's proven himself to be a very skillful and shrewd politician. Politicians do things to get re-elected. Four years isn't enough Democratic leadership for me or this country. I would love to see the repukes kicked to the curb immediately, but perhaps Obama is just tossing them a meaningless bone. They are very stupid people after all. They'll buy into it. They'll remember it. It will cement in some of their little pea-brains that he is not a Muslim after all.

I love all our LGBT Democrats. This choice is insulting and I know how you feel. Maybe Obama has a greater good he is attempting to serve. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He hasn't disappointed us yet. I am wise enough to acknowledge that there are smarter people out there that know more than I do. Obama is one of them.

[AntiFascist]

113. Would Obama reach out to David Duke?

didn't think so.

[DUlover2909]

132. No, he wouldn't. That would be a total disaster and it would accomplish nothing.

It's a valid point to raise, but there all political implications that have to be considered with the Rick Warren pick. I think Obama has equal rights for the LGBT community in his crosshairs but this is an issue that is dicey and frought with risk. We need an eight year term, and after that we need another Democratic president. There are many huge concerns to be considered. The total collapse of our economy and ecology are actual possibilities after eight years of the wreckless and absurd administration of GWB. These are extremely serious problems that threaten the existence of our entire species and our world, not to mention our nation and its Constitution. Absolute equality for all people is important and I hope it happens, but politics is a reality whether we like it or not. If there is no USA, or if there is a huge financial catastrophe, or if the world sinks under water, then equality for all won't make any difference. Perfection is something that we aspire to, and pure equality (because of the uneducated, ignorant, and hateful half of our country) may have to take longer than we would like.

[AntiFascist]

145. I agree, there should be more important things for Obama to be dealing with right now...

besides addressing gay rights issues. That is precisely why it is a big mistake for him to place someone as controversial as Rick Warren in the spotlight for his inauguration. It is like he is saying, ok I'm willing to throw gay and lesbian rights issues under the bus for now if you Evangelical folks will work with me. I agree that if Obama is going to be taking on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" or DOMA then there will need to support in Congress built first, and it would surely help if there were a less conservative Supreme Court to deal with. These are issues that can be tackled later in his term, or successive terms. He doesn't need to make symbolic concessions before his term even begins!

[mwei924]

7. Of course he's not evil. Otherwise, that would make about 35% of America evil..

There are plenty of nice people who don't agree with us on gay marriage. I have some in my family and my circle of friends.

[ContinentalOp]

20. That seems like a pretty conservative estimate!

Only 35% of Americans are evil? You could have fooled me. I would have put it at least at 50%.

[mwei924]

24. I guess 52% of voters in California. are evil.

[marimour]

127. dont forget 7/10 black women in CA are evil too!

[Yes We Did]

160. That poll was proven false....

over and over and over.

[GarbagemanLB]

8. You can close this thread. We got our standard Warren = David Duke, Warren = Hitler posts.

[thewiseguy]

10. No you are right. Warren is not an evil man.

[GarbagemanLB]

21. Misguided? Absolutely. Evil? Sorry if I disagree.

[thewiseguy]

26. Misguided? Why are you playing with words?

So David Duke is evil but Warren is misguided? Please...

[anigbrowl]

53. You're equating unlike quantities

You think Rick Warren is exactly the same as Fred Phelps? I doubt it. There are significant differences of degree, which is what's getting lost in the discussion. No, I am not supporting Warren, just pointing out that there is a continuum here rather than a binary choice.

[PVnRT]

9. Bring it together later on

instead of granting symbolic importance to a bigot.

Whatever. Someone give me the magic dust that allows me to rationalize anything.

[LooseWilly]

100. The magic dust is logic.

If you refuse to grant something to a bigot, because he/she is a bigot, then you are showing yourself to be bigoted against bigots.
Therefore, you would be required to refuse to grant similar things to yourself. As a bigot.
On the other hand, if you grant said something to said bigot despite he/she being a bigot, then you are not a bigot, and therefore you are not someone who should not be trusted to grant said widgety somethings.

Poof. Magic rationalization.

Or, you can just weigh your own bigot-hating bigotry against your hope and prayers that Obama won't in the end turn out to be so worried about the politics that he abandons progressive policies. And then you just cross your fingers... hope you can fight the gag reflex and get past the prayer thingy (personally, all prayer thingies bring up my gag reflex... and it only seems right to me that prayer thingies and intolerant assholes should go hand in hand)... and wait and see what the policies turn out to be.

Magic dust or outrage... eeny meeny miiny moh...

[jefferson_dem]

11. Very true.

Thanks for posting. :kick:

[Dennis Donovan]

12. He's not evil, he's just fucking dumb as a post for his bigoted views...

Until he repudiates his views on Equal Rights for ALL Americans, he should NOT be given a platform by the Government to express his bigoted views.

[yowzayowzayowza]

30. What in the world makes you think ...

Obamaz gunna give him a platform "to express his bigoted views" in a fucking prayer? Good gawd.


I quit. Fin. Done.

[Dennis Donovan]

43. It legitimizes him...

It's REALLY that simple. It's not rocket science, you know.:banghead:

[yowzayowzayowza]

57. On some issues he deserves to be legitimized!!!

On others condemned. Hez flawed in a manner to MILLIONS of Americans.

Sure hez evil incarnate; whatever, judge away. fin.

[Dennis Donovan]

58. I'm not judging - I'm observing HIS flawed judgement.

Next?:eyes:

[yowzayowzayowza]

60. And claiming that Obama is gunna let him dispense...

that flawed judgement in the prayer.

Ostracizing him is judging.

[Dennis Donovan]

62. Let's let a bigot speak at a government event?

You're joking, right?:shrug:

[yowzayowzayowza]

66. Dude, happens daily on the floor of the Congress.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

134. By inviting him, he had given Warren a platform

[GodlessBiker]

13. Mussolini made the trains run on time.

[davidinalameda]

15. misguided?

knock yourself out about how misguided he is

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/12/rick-warrens-dark-night-of-the.html

[mondo joe]

16. If you think it's okay to have someone who compares gays to child molesters have an

honored place in the inauguration, there's no hope for you.

[happychatter]

17. Mavericky Philanthropist eh?

the money for AIDS drugs and research in Africa goes straight into the pockets of Rockefeller megapharms.... I've always had questions about it

Many corporate "global warming" champions have connections to the Nuclear Power industry, and secondarily, to war profiteers

Nah it's not enough for ME...

The Mayor of San Francisco today said that Rick Warren isn't a bad guy.

So, I've been chewing on it. I like that mayor.

I think he IS a bad guy but we need a broad base of support for aspects of our agenda. Whether or not we need this particular asshole's support is a subject for speculation.

Thanks for posting. I hope you don't get hurt.

[ContinentalOp]

27. Gee, the mayor of San Francisco?

You mean the guy who may have singlehandedly set back gay rights by years and helped elect Bush by pulling his gay marriage shenanigans just before the '04 election? That mayor of SF?

[happychatter]

39. he did eh? well I don't know everything

thanks... I've listened to him speak a few times and always liked him

you probably want Feinstein back

I wish you'd take her

um, ever try to speak in a civil manner to anyone?

nah, nevermind

come on over and kick my ass anytime

happy to oblige

[Cali_Democrat]

29. I thought Gavin Newsom was great on Rachels show today

He was very thoughtful and rational when he was discussing this issue.

Gavin was also great when he was discussing the defeat of proposition 8.

I love that guy.

[happychatter]

41. apparently the previous poster thinks he's anti-gay... worse than Pastor Rick even

I guess we need to do our research

hmmm

[mtnsnake]

18. Rick Warren has enough evil in him for 10 men

[KittyWampus]

47. he also has enough of a personal fortune in him for 10 men

[girl gone mad]

19. Mussolini made sure all the trains ran on time.

He sure knew how to get things done. He was just a little misguided on some other issues.

Too bad he's not around. He could join in our merry Kumbaya fest.

[WeDidIt]

22. Nope, he's evil to the core

Evil people will perform acts that are perceived as good to cover up their evil.

Warren is insidiously evil in my book.

[David Zephyr]

23. Adolf Hitler played the violen.

.

[gravity]

25. The fact that some here view the world as good vs evil is troubling

[WeDidIt]

34. The fact that some do not believe there are evil people in the world is distressing. n/t

[gravity]

35. I believe 99% of people have good intentions

[WeDidIt]

37. Road to hell

Pavement.

'nuff said.

[GodlessBiker]

136. LOL. Indeed.

[QC]

49. The fact that some apparently believe that no moral issue matters

is pretty damn disturbing, too, but I guess it's a necessary quality in a good follower.

[mondo joe]

64. I don't give a fuck about good vs evil. I care about civil rights, and about truth.

And Warren is against both.

[Sebastian Doyle]

31. Homophobia is hatred. Hatred is evil.

Jesus Christ said so. In fact, He actually equated hate with murder.

[AllentownJake]

32. Evil is a strong word, No Rick Warren is not Evil, He is an asshole

who should not be invited into polite company.

[Rockholm]

92. Agreed. Evil, no. A total asshole, Yes.

[saltpoint]

33. What makes Warren's role in the Inuagural ceremony problematic is

that he is so prominently on-record as an exclusional and discriminatory propagandist.

Many feel that Obama is president to all, but that his role as the next president must elevate those who comprise that "all," as in "everybody," and as in "We," as in "We, the People."

The neo-Nazi groups are, IMO, loathesome, but I understand that they are allowed to apply for a permit and march through Skokie, Illinois if they so choose.

The difference is that I will not be joining their ranks and after the permit duration expires, they can not continue to parade through town. The permit allows access to the public square that they might speak their minds, such as they are, just as Bill Moyers gets to speak his.

A presidential Inaugural in recent times is a cable-access 24/7 news event, and it is profoundly disturbing for Obama to invite such a divisive and intemperate and manipulative man like Warren onto the Inaugural stage.

You want the right person for the right role. Dustin Hoffman was magnificent as Ratso in MIDNIGHT COWBOY. John Wayne would have been a disaster.

I think the ideological objections raised on DU and elsewhere are justified.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

36. Warren is not evil but some of his intolerant views are...not to mention un-Christian

The bible says that judgment belongs to God, so why not let God do his job?

[WeDidIt]

40. That might apply to me

if I was a Christian.

Since I am not a Christian, it does not apply to me.

Rick Warren is evil.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

42. Interesting... ;)

[Indiana_Dem]

38. Thanks for posting. K&R.

[autorank]

45. I had no idea who Rick Warren was.

Then I found out a few hours ago.

If this was a staff goof up, then OK. If this was an Obama choice, then lord help us. It's one
of the really bonehead moves of American politics. Most creeps are decent for the majority of the
time but they've got some special issue. In this case, equoating an entire class of people with
pedophilia is a sign of profound rudeness and bigotry.

Why not get Pat Robertson if you want unity.

We don't need unity with the representatives of the bigoted mindset that has run this great country
right into the ground.

This is an extraordinary comment on judgment and probity. It's a very bad sign.

[QC]

48. Charles Manson has some musical talent. n/t

[Autumn]

51. George Bush has a nice dog. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

52. And he could tap dance!

:eyes:

[jberryhill]

65. Really?

All that wasted talent.

[KitchenWitch]

50. The only poverty he has successfully fought is his own.

[QC]

54. Barbara Bush has nice silver hair. n/t

[JohnnieGordon]

55. This thread is evil, shrugging off homophobia as "misguided" is evil n/t

[Fearless]

75. I seriously doubt the personal beliefs of a single person can be on par with "evil"

n/t

[JohnnieGordon]

83. I seriously doubt you give a shit about bigotry nt

[Fearless]

99. Personal attacks are not helpful...

In fact, I do give quite a shit about bigotry. Yet I also understand that blind rage is not the solution. We cannot fight bigotry by shunning those who spew it. We must invite them into our lives so that they can see that we are not the negative stereotypes that they associate with us. They're not going to go away if we ignore them. Their defiance grows stronger if we hate them back or if we shun them for their person and not for their actions, because that hate is their desired result. If we love them, truly love them, then we try to change their minds, one family member at a time, one coworker at a time, one parishioner at a time, etc. We must realize that the single most disarming weapon we have is love and that hate only breeds more hate.

I'm sorry if you don't believe me and I'm sorry if you don't believe what I say, but that's life.

[JohnnieGordon]

104. No time to waste on homophobe apologists, sorry

Adios.

[Fearless]

106. No man is an island...

Remember that. It may be important to you someday when you've finished burning bridges.

Adieu.

NTF

[depakid]

56. No, he just thinks unequivocally that people who don't do it his way

are nothing but do gooder Marxists.

(essentially his own words).

[libnnc]

59. he equivocates my long-term relationship with child molestation.

He can fucking die and rot as far as I'm concerned.

[bluedawg12]

71. They can be friendly, just don't honor him and give tacit acceptance.

[Bluebear]

73. Rick Warren would not let me join his church because I'm gay. How could you possibly excuse that?

[Fearless]

76. Do you WANT to join his church?

Besides this isn't second grade and he is not the keeper of the kickball.

[Bluebear]

81. I don't know what you mean by kickball, but this is from his church membership rules:

"Because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the Lordship and leadership of Jesus in one’s life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church. That does not mean they cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives."

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/membership/group_finder/faqs_smallgroup.asp?id=7509#q_49

[Fearless]

85. I was saying that this is more complex an issue than people are making it out to be...

If we seclude ourselves from people like Warren then they will continue to believe exactly what they believe now about us. We must engage them. We must prove that their notions of us are misguided by our actions and not by force. We are trying to change their minds not hope some vain hope that they will simply disappear or that their bigotry will simply go away if we ignore it or shun it. We must be active participants in our own quest for equity. And, like it or not, they must be too, if we are to gain such equity.

[yardwork]

101. Are you gay? If so, please go engage with Warren and his buddies yourself.

If you're not gay, then where do you get off telling me that I "must engage them."

[Fearless]

108. I am and I do.

I feel that it is every GLBTQ person's duty to engage with those who disagree with us. If we seclude ourselves and our community from them then how can we possibly convince them that we're right? We must build a bridge to them so that they can cross it to us.

[yardwork]

117. Have fun with that. I'll stand up for human rights in my own way, thanks.

[Fearless]

119. I will. And a happy holidays to you and yours.

:hi:

[yardwork]

120. Get lost.

[marimour]

128. Classy!

[unapatriciated]

144. yes engage with them not give them the power of a national pulpit...

to spout their views. For the last eight years we have elevated the Falwell's of the right to a position that they are not entitled to.
How do you change the mind of someone who actuarially believes the earth is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs walked with man.
I'm sorry this guy is a charlatan, nothing more than a snake oil salesman.

[Fearless]

157. National pulpit?

He's giving an invocation not preaching anti-gay rhetoric. WE are the ones giving him 15 minutes of fame. For shame.

[IndianaGreen]

102. Oh, this is rich!: "Man and dinosaurs lived at the same time."

From the Saddleback membership rules! Eve had a pet T-Rex!

[Fearless]

112. But I wanted a Stegosaurus!

:cry:

[IndianaGreen]

114. Adam had his pet Penisaurus

and Eve had her Bushasaurus.

I want my dino! Whaaaaaaa!

[Fearless]

115. Come here children... pet the penisaur...

Wow, it just writes itself...

:rofl:

[peace frog]

159. He's a mean motor scooter and a bad go getter

[sarcasmo]

148. As a non believer this guy makes me sick. He sure is worried about tithing, snakeoilsalesman.

[ruggerson]

78. they'll find a way to excuse it

tho it will be interesting to see just how.

[Fearless]

82. No one is trying to excuse his belief on GLBTQ people...

They are saying that people are more complex than a single issue. It is possible for you to be right on one thing and wrong on another. It isn't a case of black and white, but shades of gray. If it were possible to categorize the entirety of Rethugs actions as bad it would simplify things quite well, but it's simply not the truth. There is good, and certainly good intentions, in everyone. One can be misguided or mistaken. Clearly Warren does not understand key aspects of the GLBTQ population. We must educate him and countless others like him instead of shunning them. If we do that, then we will continue to be oppressed and we will continue to lack equity under the law.

[Bluebear]

84. Shunning him? Warren ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNED for Prop 8. You think he's just not "educated"?

[Fearless]

87. If he understood...

What GLBTQ people were really about, would he have campaigned for Prop. 8?

[Bluebear]

91. He equates my 23 year relationship to child molestation. No room for bigots, sorry.

[Fearless]

96. And that's exactly the attitude that will...

Further ingrain his aforementioned belief into his head. If we don't show them why they're wrong, through strong and lasting example, then they will always think they're right. Nothing will change. We will still be discriminated against.

[EFerrari]

116. Warren makes his rent by advocating against gay people.

You're not going to change his mind. He'd go broke.

[Fearless]

124. Of course...

That would be true, right now. But it isn't his mind that we're trying to change. It's Mr. and Mrs. Joe Sixpack's mind that we can change. They have no such incentive to continue. Eventually he will not make money advocating against GLBTQ people, and then maybe we can get people like him too. (Maybe not, maybe he will be too far gone to recover in the time he has yet to live.)

[EFerrari]

125. You don't change people's minds by promoting the engine of hatred.

[Fearless]

126. We are by no means promoting his view points...

We are acknowledging that common ground that we do share however that will undoubtedly come up in his invocation. Maybe we don't agree on GLBTQ rights, or god in my case either, but I agree that this nation needs to be united and if he does too, then I would welcome his support of Barack Obama.

By allowing him to speak at the inauguration, Barack gains to some extent the respect of those who respect Warren. It is just a baby step, but it is a necessary one if we are to gain equality (or in Barack's case, support for liberal reforms). It is a political stunt, seen time and time again, where a politician appeals to a figurehead in an attempt to garner the support of his/her followers. It runs in the same vein as whether or not one would sit down with certain foreign leaders. Of course you will, because it will gain you their respect and only with their respect can you begin to change their mind.

[yardwork]

118. You really are clueless, aren't you?

[Fearless]

122. No, I've thought quite a bit on this subject as it is near and dear to my heart...

I understand that bigoted actions are caused by something inherently wrong in society and in individuals specifically. We must root out the cause of that wrong so that it stops reproducing in our youth. And, we must then understand why people feel about us they way they do. There is always a reason, even if it isn't clear, and most especially even if they themselves don't know what it is. Many times, orientationism, like racism or sexism, is passed down from figureheads (like parents or friends and the like) who are respected by the individual. The strength of their convictions on orientation is directly correlated to the strength of the bond between that person and the ism's originator. We must overcome that bond to convince them that they are wrong, otherwise they will not treat us seriously. We do that by being good people, by not shunning them, by gaining their respect as individuals who have much in common, by being the change that we want to see in society. We then gain their respect because we've overcome the strength of their convictions. It is possible, but difficult, and as I've said before, simple psychology.

We cannot gain their respect and thereby our equality by fighting with them. Hate breeds hate. Contempt breeds contempt. If we hate them, they have reason more to hate us in return. If we disarm them of hate, we have a chance to affect positive change in their beliefs.

[Starry Messenger]

146. Well, in this video he says he supports Prop 8 because of the 1st amendment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpRDiZnebPE

He may not be evil, but he is certainly a few bricks shy of a load, a con man and swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool. Someone that dumb should not be wasting air space with the President.

[ruggerson]

95. there is plenty out there to educate him

he has already chosen not to be educated.

People like him need to be marginalized and shunned, just the way we marginalized and shunned segregationists.

Then we must change the civil laws and they must learn to accept them.

[Fearless]

105. Marginalizing segregationists clearly worked.

Racism no longer exists. Black people are free from all oppression. :sarcasm:

Changing laws is trivial. The 13th-15th Amendments changed law, but they didn't change the fact that Black people were still actively oppressed for at least another 100 years. The same rings true with GLBTQ equality. You can pass all the laws you want, but no law is going to be enforced if people don't believe in it. An inclusive ERA would be great, but if judges don't uphold it, then it is worthless.

We must change people's minds. This cannot be done by force. It cannot be done by alienating people or shunning them. Like a parent to a child, one must shun the action, not the person. Shunning the person causes a lack of respect for said person; it's basic psychology; they won't value our opinions. They don't now, because of negative stereotypes. These stereotypes still work because we aren't actively proving them wrong in THEIR lives. If a tree falls in the woods an no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise? If a GLBTQ person actively combats negative stereotypes of GLBTQ people, say, here in DU, but not in the living room of their own home, or their neighbor's home, or Rick Warren's home, then it does no good. It's akin to an online poll. It's great and all, but it does nothing at all. We must build bridges to them so that they can walk across to us.

[ruggerson]

110. marginalizing segregationists did indeed work

We got Brown V Board of Ed and the Civil Rights ACt of 1964 largely through marginalizing segregationists and making it politically and societally UNACCEPTABLE to be in favor of discrimination.

We did not educate them. We beat them with the gavel and with the brute weight of the law.

And of course we haven't eradicated racism. But is the African American community in this country light years ahead of where it was in 1950? Of course.

[Fearless]

111. Politically and socially unacceptable?

Well that amounts to a hill of beans when the Black high school graduation rate in this country is the lowest of any minority group or if you're a Black person who makes dramatically less for the same job that a White person does. You can say that something is unacceptable, yet it is just another form of acceptance of the status quo. That status quo still discriminates against Black people. Better than the 1950's, of course. But there were voices of reason who did educate America. Martin Luther King Jr, Rosa Parks, or even Michael Jordan or Jackie Robinson, all of whom defeated negative stereotypes about Black people and educated Americans. They built bridges to all Americans and gained the respect of many people who haven't until then believed in equality or justice for Black people. They, in their actions, went up to racist Americans and said here I am, look at me, I'm Black, but the color of my skin doesn't dictate who I am inside.

The GLBTQ community must do the same if we desire equality. We must gain their respect and change their minds. We cannot avoid them. They're not going to change their minds and they surely are not going away if we do.

[akbacchus_BC]

79. Really, they why did PE Obama not invited Revered Wright. Am not

bashing you but I think he made a bad decision of inviting Rick Warren to the inauguration. Why not some one who is not such a bigot about GLBT?

PE Obama, first big mistake. Hope you like to the people who voted you in. Power sure do corrupt!

[Fearless]

93. Rev. Wright...

First of all, was taken massively out of context... his god fuck America comment is a very common sentiment in the Black community. It means fuck the white elite establishment, the embodiment of what "America" traditionally is seen as.


And secondly, the people "we" voted in. Who would you vote for? And why are you posting here at all?

[bullwinkle428]

86. He's Jerry Falwell in a Hawaiian shirt!

[QC]

98. A lot of people here seem to have bought his "thoughtful moderate" crap, though.

Seems like DUers used to be pretty shrewd.

[Sebastian Doyle]

130. He really DOES look like he could be Falwell's son, doesn't he?

I never really noticed until I kept seeing his bigoted face on TV and online all day today.

[grantcart]

88. Rick Warren is a an intellectual fraud who believes less in evolution

as time goes on.

His window dressing social issues cover the fact that he does not believe in a connected Church where he can be held accountable.


I have no problems with him selecting a conservative Christian, Warren is an insult to mainline Evangelicals.

[JI7]

89. he hasn't done anything other than be a disgusting piece of shit

[mondo joe]

109. Warren lies about gays and equates us with child molestors. Not evil?

?

[Joe Bacon]

121. PRICK WARREN ain't misguided...

...because his real Gawd, Ayn Rand, guides Prick and his pals!

[Fearless]

123. Hate breeds hate...

Why would someone choose to like you if you hate them in return? Such asinine remarks are simply icing on the racist, orientationist, sexist, genderist, or in this case hillbillyist (?) cake.

[mondo joe]

138. Who the fucks wants to be LIKED?

[Kitsune]

129. He's a con man who got rich exploiting people and spreading hate.

I don't care if he's thrown money at worthy causes to buy good press with which to sucker more people. It does not excuse him using religion as a cover for spreading hateful garbage.

[LostinVA]

133. Yes, he is -- "misguided"????? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?????

That Poor POOR Fred Phelps, so misguides. Warren is EXACTLY the same as Phelps -- he's just more sophisticated and more wily about it. HE IS WORSE THAN SARAH PALIN.

[mwb970]

135. Excellent flamebait, my friend.

It really worked! Wow.

[mmonk]

137. I disagree. Attributing the divine to bigotry is why people are oppressed

around the world. That is an evil.

[LuckyTheDog]

139. Based on my experience last night...

... one is shown to be a a bigoted homophobe unless he or she:

1) Believes Rick Warren is worse than Hitler.

2) Thinks Obama can never be trusted again if he allows Rick Warren to speak.

3) Cuts out of his/her life everyone he/she knows who does not show 100% support for gay marriage (including those who support civil unions).

4) Believes that anyone who does not show 100% support for gay marriage (including those who support civil unions) are in exactly the same category as those who still advocate for separate drinking fountains for African Americans.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8001698&mesg_id=8001698

[mondo joe]

141. Your point 4 is absolutely correct. Bigots are bigots.

No matter how much you excuse it.

[crispini]

140. As a Buddhist, I agree with you that no person is 100% bad or 100% good.

Well, except maybe pure psychopath types, but them aside, many people who have bad views or do bad things also hold good views or do good things.

The beef isn't Obama being friendly with Rick Warren. The beef is, Obama has this symbolic moment, this bully-pulpit for the nation, his inauguration, and he's handing the microphone to this guy who is homophobic and misogynistic. I don't appreciate it.

[Lyric]

143. He's evil. Doing good deeds does not negate or neutralize evil ones.

He's not fighting AIDS and poverty to be altruistic, or out of the kindness of his heart. He's doing it to gain CONVERTS, like lots of other powerful evangelicals who engage in "relief" efforts. More converts equals more global power for the evangelical Christian denominations. How much do you want to bet that every dose of medication and every basket of grain comes with proselytizing, pamphlets, and scripture?

:eyes:

[sarcasmo]

147. I can't believe someone posted this on D/U and it was Rec almost 20 times it's sad we have so many

here who can't see this is about hatred.

[leftofthedial]

149. I think we should also include skinheads, neo-Nazis and pedophiles.

They all love their Moms and their kids.

Maybe they could find a speaking slot for Dick Cheney.

Unity, oh unity!
Force us together with impunity!

Nothing says "unity" quite like starting off with a big "fuck you" to an oppressed minority!

[jberryhill]

150. Pull!

[lwcon]

152. We can all marginalize gays and women and people who need stem-cell research together! n/t

[Marrah_G]

153. And another one............

[JoFerret]

154. Let him be friendly with Warren as he wants

but why give warren a world stage. The man is a clear bigot.
Please do not defend him.

Rick Warren is NOT an inclusive person. He is NOT a spiritual leader.
let Obama make all the connections with him he want but do NOT make hin front and center of the inauguration.
What a disappointment.

[LatteLibertine]

155. So

excluding "unrepentant" gay people from his church and having programs to "cure" gay people isn't problematic? How about equating gay people with pedophiles and child-molesters? How about the fact that Warren is fine with having porn moguls as members in is "holy" church and not gays?

I believe this is a very bad idea.

[AlCzervik]

156. "misguided on some other issues." that's the understatement of the year and

the poverty and aids effort---that doesn't give him a free pass to say the disgusting things about homosexuals.

[rucky]

158. He simply doesn't deserve the respect and attention he's getting. n/t

[WeDidIt]

161. One cannot espouse dominionist philosphy and NOT be evil n/t

[kath]

162. thank you. My thread about Warren being a Dominionist sank like a stone.

[kath]

163. You can't be a big promoter of that "Left Behind" video game and not be evil:

The Purpose Driven Life Takers (Part 1)
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

Imagine: you are a foot soldier in a paramilitary group whose purpose is to remake America as a Christian theocracy, and establish its worldly vision of the dominion of Christ over all aspects of life. You are issued high-tech military weaponry, and instructed to engage the infidel on the streets of New York City. You are on a mission - both a religious mission and a military mission -- to convert or kill Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, gays, and anyone who advocates the separation of church and state - especially moderate, mainstream Christians. Your mission is "to conduct physical and spiritual warfare"; all who resist must be taken out with extreme prejudice. You have never felt so powerful, so driven by a purpose: you are 13 years old. You are playing a real-time strategy video game whose creators are linked to the empire of mega-church pastor Rick Warren, best selling author of The Purpose Driven Life.

The game, slated for release by October 2006 in advance of the Christmas shopping rush, has been previewed at video game exhibitions, and reviewed by major newspapers and magazines. But until now, no fan or critic has pointed out the controversial game's connection to Mr. Warren or his dominionist agenda.
Time magazine has described Mr. Warren as one of the nation's most influential Evangelical Christian leaders. He describes himself as a "stealth evangelist" and describes his training programs as "a stealth movement, that's flying beneath the radar, that's changing literally hundreds, even thousands of churches around the world." He claims that he has sold tens of millions of copies of The Purpose Driven Life by developing a worldwide network of pastors.
The international director of Mr. Warren's Purpose Driven Church, Mark Carver, is a former investment banker who serves on the Advisory Board of the corporation created in October 2001 to develop and market this game. The creators plan to market their game using the same network marketing techniques that Mr. Warren used to turn The Purpose Driven Life into a commercial success. For example, they plan to distribute their merchandise through pastoral networks, especially mega-churches.
{snip}
This game immerses children in present-day New York City -- 500 square blocks, stretching from Wall Street to Chinatown, Greenwich Village, the United Nations headquarters, and Harlem. The game rewards children for how effectively they role play the killing of those who resist becoming a born again Christian. The game also offers players the opportunity to switch sides and fight for the army of the AntiChrist, releasing cloven-hoofed demons who feast on conservative Christians and their panicked proselytes (who taste a lot like Christian).
Is this paramilitary mission simulator for children anything other than prejudice and bigotry using religion as an organizing tool to get people in a violent frame of mind? The dialogue includes people saying, "Praise the Lord," as they blow infidels away.

[Hippo_Tron]

164. I agree with your subject line but not the substance of your post

Mostly because I don't like labeling anybody as "evil". I tend to let history be the judge of that. But he is not simply "misguided" on other issues.

[cooolandrew]

165. Barack " And to those who didn't vote for me I will work to be your president too."

[IndianaGreen]

166. Warren is just as misguided as those Nazi Storm Troopers that beat up gays and Jews

We know where that path leads!