What were your thoughts when Billy Graham gave the invocation at the 1993 inauguration?

[Hanse]

Billy Graham- the noted anti-semite and homophobe.

[GarbagemanLB]

1. That's different.

...

[scheming daemons]

3. Yeah... there was no blogosphere then

...to pour gasoline on the fire.

[Bluebear]

13. What are you trying to become, DU's anti-gay troll?

[scheming daemons]

17. Nothing about me or my world view is anti-gay.... I support gay marriage

What on earth is "anti-gay" about saying that the blogosphere amplifies issues?


Geezus.... you've got a hair trigger.

[Bluebear]

18. The hair trigger is yours . . .

You have taken every and I mean EVERY opportunity to belittle and dismiss people who are truly and deeply bothered by this.

[scheming daemons]

27. Obviously I'm not as outraged as you are, because the issue doesn't touch me personally....

....but I'm in favor of you having the right to marry.... in all 50 states.


I just have dozens of issues that are more important to me than this.... so I'm not willing to derail the Obama presidency over this.


Obviously, you have this issue very high on your priority list and are deeply hurt and rightly so.



But the OP makes a good point here..... why wasn't there this same level of outrage when Clinton chose Billy Graham?


My answer is that the blogosphere didn't exist then. If it did, the outrage would have been just as much.


That's my point... and there's nothing anti-gay about that point.

[Bluebear]

29. 1992 is not 2008. We HAD made progress. Gay marriage WAS LAW in California.

Rick Warren helped OVERTURN law.

[scheming daemons]

31. And I'm telling you that Obama will appoint SCOTUS judges that you will like

...that's my gut feeling.


Gay marriage has unstoppable momentum now. Prop 8 was a setback... a BIG setback... but I wouldn't be surprised if courts overturn it within a few years.

Meanwhile, I expect more states to legalize gay marriage.

10 years ago, the public was 80-20 against gay marriage. Now it's probably about 55-45.

The trendlines are moving in your direction.



In the meantime, if I were in your position I would penalize California with my dollars and move to a gay-marriage-friendly state. When Californians are moving to Connecticut (and other states) in droves, perhaps the remaining Californians will "get it".

[Bluebear]

32. Look, I don't disagree about the SCOTUS

And I know this is i-m-p-o-r-t-a-n-t.

You are a pragmatic person. I can accept that. But you have to accept that this was an insult and a slap in the face to us.

[scheming daemons]

33. I accept that

It was a slap in the face to you.



Obama deserves a scolding....maybe even a harsh one....

...but the world is on the brink right now, and we cannot afford for this Presidency to be derailed because he made an insensitive choice.


From *MY* perspective... and admittedly, it is not likely to be shared by you....

....avoiding Great Depression II (or quickly navigating out of it) is 1000 times more important than a bigot speaking at the inauguration. If I have to cringe and put up with the latter to make sure we get the former, I'll do it.


Obama fucked up. On that we agree.

I consider it a minor fuckup, you consider it a major fuckup.

That's the only difference.

[phleshdef]

53. For 3 whole months. And you need to blame California more than Warren..

...and African Americans who tend to have conservative religious values for pushing the ban on over the edge.

[CTLawGuy]

62. thats right

blame the blacks :eyes:

[firedupdem]

66. and you need to fuck off with your race baiting bullshit...

"african americans". Why doesn't that shit get alerted on? You don't know every black person in california so shut that shit up.

[KittyWampus]

60. And you take EVERY opportunity to pour gasoline on the fire.You obviously get off on fueling outrage

you did all through the primary.

Schemingdemons has "taken every and I mean EVERY opportunity to belittle and dismiss people who are truly and deeply bothered by this"?

That is such bullshit. You couldn't back that up with actual quotes from that DU'er.

You obviously are projecting your own bile onto others.

[Hanse]

19. Well as long as we're going to throw around accusations...

maybe the double standard is because Clinton is white and Obama is black.

[Bluebear]

22. Wow.

[Solomon]

52. Thank you Hanse

[mondo joe]

2. Was that when Bill Clinton claimed to be a "fierce advocate" for gays?

Oh wait, he's not the one who said that.

[GarbagemanLB]

4. Don't act like a lot of the Hillary supporters from the primary aren't making Warren posts.

[mondo joe]

10. A lot of GLBT people didn't trust Obama in the primary. They were wise.

He just keeps confirming their fears.

[Bluebear]

14. This is not fucking about Hillary Clinton, for shit's sake, what is wrong with you?

I was an asshole loser who voted for Edwards in the primary, please stop saying this is PUMA.

[GarbagemanLB]

34. I am not talking about PUMA bullshit. I am talking about people who hold Obama to a different

standard than the Clintons.

A good portion of the Hillary supporters on here outraged over the Warren situation excuse Graham when he held the exact same beliefs.

[Hanse]

5. It's when Clinton threw all the Jews under the bus.

Apparently.

[Sebastian Doyle]

30. Well, let's be honest here, Joe

Bill Clinton DID promise gays a better future. And then delivered "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and the Indefensible Marriage Act (as I've always called it)

[mondo joe]

37. Fine. Now how about today's "fierce advocate"?

[Sebastian Doyle]

44. I think my posts in all the threads on this Warren clusterfuck make it clear where I stand.

Frankly, I'm disappointed with Obama this week overall. Tom VilSuck is one of the biggest pieces of shit on this planet, shilling for one of the worst corporations on the planet. The SEC choice, Shapiro is a Wall Street "self-regulator" which is like saying Rush Limbaugh can "regulate" Oxycontin supplies.

Obviously anything is better than the Bush Crime Family. But there's a difference between going in the proper direction and merely not going any further in the wrong direction. :evilfrown:

[October]

6. LOL! Crickets!

Good post.

I don't think there's a "professional preacher" out there who hasn't insulted, excluded or said something stupid about one group or another.

Dems eat their own around here.

[Lucky 13]

7. You make a VERY interesting point. nt

[wyldwolf]

8. most of the kids here were in grade school then

[Robb]

25. speak up, sonny

I think you're onto something. :D

[bluestateguy]

9. I didn't care

But I sure did care when Clinton capitulated on gays in the military and signed DOMA in 1996.

Policies matter most.

[October]

11. Good point

No one said anything when Graham gave the invocation....but plenty of my gay friends are still steamed over DADT.

[scheming daemons]

21. Exactly.... POLICIES matter

...and if Obama's policies end up being anti-gay, then he'll be a disappointment.

[ecstatic]

63. Love the sig pic! nt

[Clio the Leo]

12. I'm not a fan of false prophets no matter who they are....

.... fortuantely, I'm unaware of any lasting negative impact of those two minutes worth of prayer.

I rolled my eyes and then moved on with my life.

[Bluebear]

15. As long as everything is OK with Clio the Leo. "Me me me me me"

[Binka]

35. No Shit Plastic Turkeys

WTF :wtf: is it with these god damn people who just rolled in here like last week and think they own the joint. The poster you are referring to is simply full of shit.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[atreides1]

16. It wasn't known at the time?

His feelings about Jews were not known in 1993, because it didn't come out until 1994, and no one believed Haldeman:


In 1994, H. R. Haldeman's diaries revealed that Graham had taken part in conversations speaking of Jewish domination of the media. The allegations were so at odds with Graham's public image that most did not believe his account, and Jewish groups paid little attention. Graham released a statement denying that he talked "publicly or privately about the Jewish people, including conversations with President Nixon, except in the most positive terms." He said, "Those are not my words."


In 2002, however, newly declassified "Richard Nixon tapes" confirmed remarks made by Graham to President Nixon three decades earlier. Captured on the tapes, Graham agreed with Nixon that Jews control the American media, calling it a "stranglehold" during a 1972 conversation with Nixon. "This stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain," said Graham, agreeing with Nixon's comments about Jews and their influence in American life. Later, Graham mentions that he has friends in the media who are Jewish, including A. M. Rosenthal, saying they "swarm around me and are friendly to me." But, he tells Nixon, "They don't know how I really feel about what they're doing to this country." These remarks were considered highly controversial by some Jewish leaders such as Abraham Foxman, who characterized them as anti-Semitic.

When the tapes were publicly released, Graham apologized for his remarks, stating, "lthough I have no memory of the occasion, I deeply regret comments I apparently made ... They do not reflect my views, and I sincerely apologize for any offense caused by the remarks," and "If it wasn't on tape, I would not have believed it. I guess I was trying to please... I went to a meeting with Jewish leaders and I told them I would crawl to them to ask their forgiveness." According to Newsweek magazine, "he shock of the revelation was magnified because of Graham's longtime support of Israel and his refusal to join in calls for conversion of the Jews."

[WeDidIt]

20. I was incensed n/t

[polichick]

23. I've always been disgusted when politicians pander to blowhard TV ministers.

[slackmaster]

24. Or when Richard Cardinal Cushing spoke at Kennedy's inauguration in 1960

A representative of a major branch of Christianity that officially considers homosexuality to be sinful, and is opposed to all elective abortions.

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. Billy Graham has never supported legislation to take existing civil rights away from anybody.

That's what separates Warren from other fundagelical preachers.

And while I don't have a quote in front of me, I remember an interview with Billy Graham where he said that we're all sinners and he didn't see any point in what some of his fellow preachers did in singling out gays for targets of their wrath. And I believe he apologized for his anti-semitic comments.

But this isn't about Billy Graham, is it? He's a frail, dying old man who probably will never give a public sermon again, and his ministry will be in the hands of his son Franklin, who is far far worse than even Prick Warren.

[scheming daemons]

28. I guarantee you that Billy Graham would've worked against Prop 8

Based on every one of his stated beliefs .....

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. He's not dead yet. Did he come out in opposition of Prop 8?

:shrug:

[GarbagemanLB]

41. I don't even think he knows what year it is.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. Before he became ill, did he ever state that he thought same-sex marriage should be legal?

Did he ever officiate at a gay wedding?

[GarbagemanLB]

49. Was it even an issue when he was still preaching? This is a recent issue (gay marriage legalization)

[ensho]

36. yuck - religion and State don't go together

nt

[Johonny]

40. I thought nothing

cause like Fleetwood Mac was getting back together and shit

[Tommy_Carcetti]

42. That was before GD:P, mind you.

I believe we all communicated our political opinions via smoke signal and crude cave drawings.

Sorry for the snark and waste of bandwith. Please continue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. K&R

[IndianaGreen]

46. "Old fart!"

That's what I thought. Graham did not campaign for Prop 8.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. What are your thoughts on this?

[JVS]

54. Oh boy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. How far down the memory hole do we want to venture?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3774300

[SteppingRazor]

48. My thoughts? In 1993? Hmm ... I imagine they had something to do with getting my driver's license.

:shrug:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

50. Disgust, of course.

[Captain Hilts]

51. YUCK!!!!!

[alwysdrunk]

56. I thought it was perfectly normal, not even worth mentioning

My thoughts were basically "okay this is business as usual, I wonder how long it will be until to the speech starts". I knew who Billy Graham was, my mom used to watch him on TBN or whatever the Christian cable channel is. I remember him meeting with Ronald Reagan. I figured it was just a tradition that all presidents had to go through. I figured it was just part of the process no big deal.

It's basically the same thing I think today. Obama is just doing this because this is what is done. Billy Graham is retired so he got the new Billy Graham. McCain would probably have done the exact same thing. The next president will probably do the exact same thing. I'll be wondering how long it will be until the speech starts.

[Hanse]

57. Bump.

Seems there's quite a double standard among a lot of people.

[Jennicut]

58. I don't really remember it all to well as the internet was just starting to get big by 1994/1995

I was 16 then and there was only really AOL back then to post messages on, anyone remember those chat rooms? LOL. Those were the days. I do remember watching the inauguration and thinking that Hillary had one ugly checkered outfit on but that I kind of liked her spunkiness. I thought Bubba trying to get gays into the military was a good idea but people like Sam Nunn, a Dem, really went after him on it.

[saltpoint]

59. I tuned in to hear the new president but also to listen to Maya Angelou.

Billy don't cut it next to my Maya.

This is what she had to say:

http://poetry.eserver.org/angelou.html

[moriah]

61. A lot of his anti-semetic and homophobic comments were revealed after that.

The HIV statement was sometime in 1993, and I don't know if it was before or after the inauguration, but it was likely after the inauguration.

[cstanleytech]

64. To be honest, I didnt care since it was clinton I voted for and not

Billy Graham.

[LWolf]

65. My thoughts:

:puke:

I was never a fan of Graham, and I always opposed offering prayer at government meetings, functions, and ceremonies.