I'm gay, and I'm tired of the gay overreaction to Prop 8 and Rick Warren at the inauguration.

[stevietheman]

We gays aren't the only people in this country, and we need to learn a little bit of tolerance and understanding, *especially* as we call for others to do the same for us.

We need to stop being hypocrites!

I am tired of the extreme anger, and it needs to come to a close.

If we don't agree with the democratic result of Prop 8, then we need to work on a democratic repeal. Duh! Stop the whining and get to work!

If we don't agree with Rick Warren being at the inauguration, make the case, but also realize that Obama is trying to get the entire country behind him. Maybe we should teach others about our tolerance for a change, and maybe set an example?

Is any of this so hard to do, or are we going to keep acting like we're in high school?

[elocs]

1. Are you sure that you are allowed to have that opinion? n/t

[ooglymoogly]

186. What is the sound of an army of goody two shoes quashing decent.....nt

[skooooo]

254. Decent or Dissent? nt

[ooglymoogly]

261. sorry dissent nt

[HamdenRice]

2. Thank you! A grown up speaks! nt

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TechBear_Seattle]

37. Selfish, spoiled children, along the lines of Veruca Salt

I mean, how much more selfish can you get when you scream, "Stop beating on me! I'll be good!" :eyes:

[dbackjon]

121. Indeed

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HamdenRice]

72. Thanks for proving my point!

As did your copy cats below. How mature!

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

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[Ken Burch]

159. It's "grownup" to say you disapprove of gays?

:wtf:

I'd hate to think what you'd have thought it was grownup to say in Alabama in the 60's.

[The Doctor.]

192. It certainly isn't to construe the OPs intention as 'disapproval of gays'.

What is with all the deliberate mischaracterization around here?

[Deja Q]

204. Because false accusations and baiting is much more fun, that's why.

Nobody wants to discuss anything; it's all a mob mentality. Disagree with the mob, in even the slightest detail, and you're stoned to death.

Indeed, the mob doesn't realize that it unwittingly helps add to the problem more than anything else.

Unfortunate, but that's what the mob wants.

Warren himself isn't right on some of these issues, but so much has been said and accused out of context it's beyond ridiculous.

[Ken Burch]

242. I wasn't talking about the OP. I was talking about poster #2

And Poster #2 knows what post I was referring to.

[The Doctor.]

253. Umm.... ok, inside story, gotcha.

But it seems that the OP is being accused, however indirectly, of 'disapproving of gays' even though that is clearly not the case.

[Deja Q]

202. Seconded.

[madmadmad]

226. A FUCKIN GROWN UP WOULD NEVER DEFEND BIGOTRY AND PERSECUTION OF A MINORITY GROUP.

[HamdenRice]

290. Cool! Just one step from a pizza! nt

[dbackjon]

3. OVER REACTION

What the hell you talking about?


No amount of outrage is over reaction.



You can be lead to the concentration camps whimpering, but I will not stand idly by.

[HamdenRice]

8. You insult all Jews with this: "You can be lead to the concentration camps whimpering"

because you are equating the worst crime in modern history with a wacky preacher giving a prayer.

This is why your kind of rhetoric loses all credibility and actually turns off potential supporters.

[mondo joe]

13. Jews? Gays were a favorite target for the concentration camps. I know you have your precious

hierarchy of suffering that lets you be the lead victim of all history, but get a grip.

[HamdenRice]

19. So you insult both European Jews and European gays of the 30s, 40s

with that kind of horrible rhetoric. Do you really think that Warren giving a 2 minute prayer is the equivalent of the Holocaust.

That's basically an insane position.

[mondo joe]

29. The Holocaust didn't happen in a vacuum. An environment filled with slights like

this one grew into worse, and into the Holocaust.

So fuck your score keeping - you don't know shit except your desire to maintain your status as chief victim.

[HamdenRice]

40. So a speech by a homophobe is the equivalent of being sent to the gas chambers?

Is that really what you believe?

Sorry, but that's insane and offensive. That over the top rhetoric does no one any favors.

[mondo joe]

49. Strawman. I never said such a thing. I said the environment leading up to the Holocaust

resulted in the Holocaust.

Every propagandist who said Jews and Gays were sleazy, stealing others money, recruiting their children, was a step toward the Holocaust.

And Warren is no different than they were.

[HamdenRice]

70. Sorry.

I equated you with someone I disagreed with up thread. But still, I don't think it's right to even equate the atmosphere with pre-Nazi or Nazi Germany. It's a disservice to all who died in the Holocaust.

[mondo joe]

78. Of course you don't. It doesn't suit your victim scorecard. NT

[HamdenRice]

79. Facts matter. Levels of immoral violence matter.

Sorry you don't think so. If you want to equate the atmosphere in American toward gays today to the atmosphere toward Jews and gays in Nazi Germany fine.

But if you do, you are politically and morally beyond the pale of polite society. Violent murder is different from denial of a tax credit and health care benefits. Get used to it.

[Ms. Toad]

189. Are you really not aware of the many gays who are

violently murdered, raped, or tormented until they take their own lives in this country on an all too regular basis? That is very much part of the atmosphere in America. Are we being herded into cattle cars today - no, but neither were the Jews, gays, and others in Germany during the period before the concentration camps began to be filled, during which an atmosphere of bigotry, hatred, and violence developed which nade Hitler's concentration camps possible.

The denial of a tax credit and health care benefits both encourage and grow out of the more blatant hatred and violence we do experience on a daily basis.

[mkultra]

177. sorry , it doesnt equate

your an anti-semite if you think it does.

[Bluenorthwest]

207. For you edification

Here is a quote from Rick Warren equating our choice laws to the Holocaust in no uncertain terms. Just so you know:

“But to me it is kind of a charade in that people say ‘We believe abortions should be safe and rare. Don’t tell me it should be rare. That’s like saying on the Holocaust, ‘Well, maybe we could save 20 percent of the Jewish people in Poland and Germany and get them out and we should be satisfied with that,’” Warren said. “I’m not satisfied with that. I want the Holocaust ended.”

So perhaps you have a beef with Warren about that one?

[AntiFascist]

267. I wouldn't equate it with the pre-Nazi atmosphere...

but there are definitely echoes, and it is definitely a case where we should have learned something from history.

[mkultra]

176. actually, it was hitlers ascention to power that lead to it

people letting bigoted preachers give invocations did not.

[cali]

89. no. that's not how the Holocaust came to pass.

not even close.

[mondo joe]

92. There was an anti semitic environment in Europe that set the ground for the

Holocaust. Simple fact.

[cali]

99. prior to the holocaust, the Nuremberg Laws were enacted

and comparing the Nuremberg laws with the current legal and social environment in the U.S. is more than a stretch. It's a historical anachronism. Whether you recognize it or not, both socially and legally, gays and lesbians have made advances in the last decades. The same was not true for Jews in the thirties in Germany. To put it mildly. There is simply not the pervasive threat to the GLBT community here and now that there was to Jews and other groups in the thirties in Germany.

[mondo joe]

102. The environment that set the stage for the holocaust didn't start with the Nuremberg

Laws.

The anti Semitic environment took hold in Europe over a much longer time.

[Zodiak]

112. They used to saw gays in half in the Middle Ages

Hang them upside and saw them in half between the legs. Disgusting.

I would say anti-Semitism and anti-gay have both been long-held European traditions.

[wildonion]

117. Yes, & that's all equivalent to inviting Rick Warren

:eyes:

Sarcasm alert for the intelligence impaired.

[Ken Burch]

161. We've already established that you think it's grownup to "disapprove of gays"

So who are you to talk about insults?

[HamdenRice]

201. What a dumb post! I think you need to address it to these guys--->

[Bluenorthwest]

206. Rick Warren has equated the Holocaust

to the American abortion laws, just so you know that. He insulted women, Jews, gay people, Romany people, and the many others who were murdered by the Nazis with that one.

[Sebastian Doyle]

272. If Adolf Hitler got a weekend pass from Hell

Would you want to hear him preach his hate, even if it was "only two minutes"?

[JerseygirlCT]

145. Not that it ought to be a contest

but the number of Jews murdered in the camps far outweighs the number of any other group so treated. You simply cannot downplay that horror without being called on it.

[mondo joe]

162. More Jews than gays, but not for lack of trying.

Don't be so stupid.

[jhrobbins]

164. Really you doof - there were only about 75k gays killed in the

Holocaust, so it only makes sense that gays should be that % less outraged. Right?

sarcasm:


mondo joe-I'm sure you get that I was only kidding calling you a doof - it was for effect-just don't want you to think I was serious:

[JerseygirlCT]

166. Which is why I said it's not a contest.

But to in any way downplay what happened to the Jews... that just doesn't work.

You don't make your points by turning it into "well gays were hurt as much as you". It was a horror. It's not a matter of some twisted one-ups-manship.

[jhrobbins]

250. You know-in my case it's not 'the Jews', it's my family, so don't tell

me about loss or who hurts more. We have often talked about Holocaust deniers saying that it wasn't 6 million - but only about 1 million. It's the same thing.

[emilyg]

163. Here are some numbers for you

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime will never be known, but scholars, using a variety of methods of determining the death toll, have generally agreed upon common range of the number of victims. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed<7>. However, the following estimates are considered to be highly reliable. The estimates:

5.1–6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews<8>
1.8 –1.9 million Gentile Poles<9>
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
Raul Hilberg, in the third edition of his ground-breaking three-volume work, The Destruction of the European Jews, estimates that 5.1 million Jews died during the Holocaust. This figure includes "over 800,000" who died from "Ghettoization and general privation;" 1,400,000 who were killed in "Open-air shootings;" and "up to 2,900,000" who perished in camps. It is difficult to determine whether Hilberg's numbers are conservative or liberal because he does not provide point estimates; rather, he rounds his figures. Hilberg estimates the death toll in Poland at "up to 3,000,000."

Lucy Davidowicz used prewar census figures to estimate that 5.934 million Jews died. Using official census counts may cause an underestimate since many births and deaths were not recorded in small towns and villages. Another reason some consider her estimate too low is that many records were destroyed during the war. Her listing of deaths by country is available in the article about her book, The War Against the Jews.

One of the most authoritative German scholars of the Holocaust, Prof. Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin, cites between 5.3 and 6.2 million Jews killed in Dimension des Volksmords (1991), while Yisrael Gutman

[MH1]

224. You're expecting Obama to lead you to the concentration camps?

Because he allows a preacher with typical preacher views to give the culturally obligatory invocation - all of about 2 minutes of speaking at most, surely none of it about sexuality - at his inauguration?!?

Wow, just wow.

[cali]

15. The poster also insults all the homosexuals who suffered under the Nazis

[HamdenRice]

26. See post 19

It's not which particular groups went to the gas chambers. It's equating a speech with the gas chambers.

It's still anti-Semitic, because the majority of victims of the Holocaust were Jews.

[eridani]

147. Speech sets the stage that makes gas chambers possible n/t

[girl gone mad]

137. No. People who give bigots a public platform in the modern era...

insult homosexuals who suffered under the Nazis.

[Dennis Donovan]

17. Bigotry, in ALL forms, is DANGEROUS.

It didn't start off with gas chambers for the Jews. It started with the stripping of their civil rights.

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

[Critters2]

22. Gays were sent to the camps as well. And the fact that you don't know that,

or don't care, is precisely why this matters!

[mondo joe]

30. He knows. He just doesn't care. More institutionalized homophobia. NT

[dbackjon]

33. Gays were Hitler's guinea pigs

Once he realized he could kill gays, he realized he could marginilize anyone.

learn history before giving me a lame lecture.


You have no credibility if you do not know this.

[cali]

95. no they weren't.

The disabled were Hitler's guinea pigs. And read mein kampf before you blather on ignorantly; the Jews were absolutely always his chief target. There's no argument at all about that in the academic world. That doesn't mean that the Nazis didn't target other demographic groups, but facts are facts. And you accuse others of having no credibility?

"People with disabilities were among the first to be killed, and the United States Holocaust Memorial museum notes that the T-4 Euthanasia Program, established in 1939, became the "model" for future exterminations by the Nazi regime.<13> The T-4 Program was established in order to maintain the "purity" of the so-called Aryan race by systematically killing children and adults born with physical deformities or suffering from mental illness. Officially 75,000 to 250,000 people were killed between 1939 and 1941, including in the first Nazi gas chambers.

The T-4 program set important precedents for the later "Final Solution" of the Jews of Europe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Handicapped_people

And don't bother trying to dispute this on the grounds that it's wiki. It's accurate.

[dbackjon]

122. Wrong again

Being that the gay purges started in the early 30's....

[anigbrowl]

135. I don't want to start quoting Mein Kampf...

...so I won't. But any serious study of Hitler and Nazi Germany can see that Hitler had a major chip on his shoulders about the Jews since his time in Vienna. He was no friends of homosexuals either, along with anything else he considered 'perverted', but his worldview, such as it was, was founded on the idea of inborn racial characteristics more than anything else.

Anyway, I cite Godwin's law on all these discussions. The US is not turning into Nazi Germany, despite 8 years of bush and existence of Rick Warren. It's people like Fred Phelps who are the exception nowadays, whereas those attitudes used to be a lot more widespread.

[AntiFascist]

270. I strongly disagree...

Fred Phelps is not the only exception to Godwin's Law!

If you really understand Nazi history then you would know that much of it started with the relatively innocent desire to lift up the folkish German people from the oppression of the bankers and businessmen, who, as we know from the evil propaganda, eventually became associated with the Jews. How is this really so much different from, say, Sarah Palin's efforts when she attempted to demonize Obama and his following?

Rick Warren and his ilk are attempting to blame the current economic conditions on the people themselves, and, through arguendo, all of the negative, stereotypical characteristics associated with gays and lesbians, not the least of which is: being unable to "delay gratification'. If this is left unchecked, who knows where it could lead.

[GrimReefa]

237. I'm sorry, what's the point?

And I could really attach this to any of the posts in this general area. Why are we having a suffer-off between the gays and the Jews? Hitler was an asshole, who killed millions of people, really anyone he could get his hands on. He was also a maniacal dictator bent on world conquest. And it all happened 70 years ago. So why are we arguing about it? It has nothing to do with Rick Warren, or Prop 8.

The Holocaust was a state-sponsored program to eradicate certain segments of the European population. And while it's fine and dandy to say that a persuasive attitude of intolerance was the underlying cause, the fact of the matter is, the persuasive attitude in THIS country is more friendly to the homosexual community than it has EVER been. Period. And it's only going to continue in that direction.

Just the fact that homosexual marriage is even up for discussion is astounding, considering the state of the gay rights movement, say, 20 years ago. So don't worry, you're not going to be headed to the gas chamber, whimpering or otherwise.

But that is not to say anyone should be abandoning their quest for civil rights. Proposition 8 was an astounding failure on election day. If you gave me the choice of reversing one election day result, I'd pick Prop 8 without hesitation, and I'm not gay, nor do I live in California.

That being said, where was all of this outrage BEFORE the election? You know, when it could have done some good? Proposition 8 is no more horrible today than it was the day it was put on the ballot, but the gay rights movement dropped the ball. They thought that they could just coast to victory - it's California, why should we put any effort into it? Meanwhile, the LDSers went all out on the offensive, reaching out to all sorts of communities, and squeaking out a victory. It kind of reminds me of the Democratic primary race; Clinton thought she had it in the bag, and team Obama outworked her and took the nomination. But it's so much easier to blame failure on others than it is on yourself.

Screaming about it at this point doesn't do you much good. A much better approach would be to start planning and building the coalition that will lead to its repeal in two years. I'd start by devising a method of reaching out to the black and Hispanic communities, instead of yelling at them. Also, there are more young Christians, even young Evangelicals, who are open to gay civil rights than you might think. Reaching out to them would not only strengthen your position, but it would cripple the anti-homosexual movement by eating away at its core. You're going to get a lot of doors slammed in your face, to be sure, but it won't take many converts before you have a working majority.

As for Rick Warren - look, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you should be okey dokey with a bigot speaking at Obama's inauguration, even if it's only to give a short prayer. But let's take a step back and check out the forest. Barack Obama is going to be appointing a lot of federal judges over the next four years, including to the Supreme Court. If the economy turns around under his watch and we get out of Iraq, his reelection will be Regeanesque and we're probably talking about a very liberal judicial branch for the next 20 years or so, under which the gay rights movement will continue to make progress. I mean, if gay rights have made the kind of advancements that they have over the last 8 years, under THIS administration, imagine what can happen under a Democratic presidency, even if the President himself is not a noted advocate for homosexual rights.

Honestly, it's a good thing that there is vocal opposition to Warren's speaking at the inauguration. It needs to be clear to this administration that the homosexual community is a constituency of which they have to be aware and whose agenda they need to assist. But the level of the opposition should be more concordant with the level of the offense. In this case, we're talking about a symbolic offense, so the opposition should also be symbolic. Maybe everyone who opposes Warren's speaking at the invocation should wear some sort of patch or button, and they could all turn their backs while he speaks. Simple, eloquent, and it will turn more people on to the gay civil rights movement than all out open hostility.

[soleft]

67. Tell that to the brain dead man beaten up in NYC a few weeks ago

Tell that bullshit to Matthew Shepard's Mom.

Tell that to all the gays and lesbians murdered in Germany and Iran and everywhere else they are dehumanized and villified.

[iamthebandfanman]

223. so jewish people never thought

to themselves 'lets wait this out, it cant last forever...someone will stop it' before they were sent to camps to die?


that kind of pacifism didnt help them and it wont help anyone else.

i dont think in anyway he was trying to compare a horrible murdering genocide to the equal rights movement of gays...
just that a mentality of 'everything will work out if we follow the rules' doesnt always actually accomplish anything.

[madmadmad]

227. THE WORST CRIME IN HISTORY STARTED WITH A MINORITY GROUP BEING UNJUSTLY PERSECUTED.

WHO IS TO SAY WHERE THIS WILL END? *YOU* INSULT JEWS BY THINKING IT COULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN, AND NOT STANDING UP TO PREJUDICE AND PERSECUTION.

[MNBrewer]

230. Liar

[Terran]

14. Yes, extreme over reaction

especially on your part.

[dbackjon]

39. Not hardly.

[Terran]

98. You went from Warren to the holocaust

in one leap, and you don't think that's overreaction? Get a fucking life.

[dbackjon]

120. Don't TELL ME TO GET A FUCKING LIFE

DON'T Tell me that when I do not have equal rights.

HOW DARE YOU TELL ME THAT.

[Terran]

136. You only continue

to prove my point. :eyes:

[Bluenorthwest]

209. Here's your Warren on abortion. Just so's you knows who's who

“But to me it is kind of a charade in that people say ‘We believe abortions should be safe and rare,’” he added.

“Don’t tell me it should be rare. That’s like saying on the Holocaust, ‘Well, maybe we could save 20 percent of the Jewish people in Poland and Germany and get them out and we should be satisfied with that,’” Warren said. “I’m not satisfied with that. I want the Holocaust ended.”


One leap. In detail. Specifically equating the Nazi murders to his own agenda. While you jump on one guy for a righteous allusion, I wonder what your reaction to Ricky's leap might be?

Or does the gander get leeway the goose is not allowed?

[Renew Deal]

21. "No amount of outrage is over reaction?"

So you support violence, hostage taking, bombings, etc. for the cause?

[emilyg]

80. How insulting can you get.

[ooglymoogly]

184. This anger is not just about gay marriage, it is not really even about gays

It is about an antediluvian bigot who uses his connections and power to put evil and bigotry into law and the constitution. A bigot is being exalted on an unprecedented level. O is a pretty big connection and the inauguration is an immense venue conferring a large amount of power on this profoundly backward idiot.

That said, this is to gays as if the grand wizard of kkk is being asked to give the invocation for blacks. It is unforgivable and O is smart enough to know that.

[Bluebear]

4. Ooooh, recommend avalanche coming! What fun!

[jonnyblitz]

9. they'll be tripping over themselves to recommend uncle stevies

thread!!

[Terran]

18. yes, all of us "self-loathers"

:eyes:

[Number23]

158. Exactly. There was not a word of scorn or derision for the...

"rec if you're unhappy with Obama's pick of Warren" thread that got over 600 recs. But if someone, particularly a gay person, says "what the hell is the big deal?" then they're the self-loathing type.

In the black community, we have a word for folks that always try to call somebody out for not shooting the sky over every perceived slight at the black community. We call them the Soul Patrol. Perhaps there is a gay equivalent?

[DevonRex]

6. Uh oh. Watch out. And whatever you do, don't give a cyber hug to anybody.

[Dennis Donovan]

7. I'm not Gay, and I fail to see an overreaction about Warren.

:shrug:

[RandomKoolzip]

129. Seconded. In fact, I think the chorus of disapproval should be much louder.

Fer crissakes, Mr. OP, you're okay with Obama's association with a man who advocates for your destruction? That's fuckin' bizarre.

I'm straight too, but jeezus, to me this isn't just a GLBT issue - this is a sentient and conscious human being issue.

[Ken Burch]

171. Agreed. When did it get acceptable in this party to tell groups facing bigotry

that they're making a big deal over nothing and should "know their place"?

[ooglymoogly]

185. Amen nt

[cali]

11. You just put yourself in the firing line.

I understand the hurt and anger that many in the GLBT community feel and I don't have a problem with their expression of anger and hurt. On the other hand, you're right that it's probably not going to accomplish much and needs to be augmented by real work.

Maturity is often not its own reward. And you're about to see that in a big and ugly way.

[NJmaverick]

12. All I can say is

:applause:

[Starry Messenger]

16. I'm straight.

Personally I think the majority of posts by gay Du-ers have been restrained, articulate and well worth reading. I'm sure most are also working back channels to help put an end to travesties like Prop 8. I'm incensed that Warren was picked. I'm an atheist who doesn't like to see religion "chop-shopping" the Constitution.

My .02

[Democrats_win]

20. Throw Warren in the sewer, the place that Conservatives have EARNED!

You can not be a Democrat and accept Warren at the beginning of Obama's presidency. Gay or not.

Like the Reformation, the reformers, or changers, never go far enough. But good grief! To EMBRACE the failures! WTF! Conservatism has failed.

AGAIN! CONservatism has failed. DUMP Warren.

[Barack_America]

23. This is not going to go well for you...

But thank you for having the courage to pose an interesting viewpoint.

[EFerrari]

24. I'm not in for helping Obama gather up homophobes, misogynists and anti-Semites.

If he wants to do that, he needs to do it on his own time, not in the middle of our national ceremony.

And there is nothing hypocritical about defending your values. That's what grown ups do.

[stevietheman]

32. I just think it's more practical to focus on problem resolution than showing anger.

That's my basic point.

[Critters2]

35. What problems are solved with hate speech? nt

[Bluebear]

38. I want to send you love and peace over these internet tubes, mycritters2

You have been such a good friend on this issue and I appreciate it.

[Critters2]

52. I'm just so stunned by it. I actually cried when I heard this news.

And then to find DUers supporting it. I just can't believe it.

Thanks for the vibes! Backatcha!

Gotta go do nursing home visits (I wonder if Rick Warren does that), now that the streets have been plowed. Have a good afternoon! :hi:

[EFerrari]

36. You also seem to think it's a good idea to insult people who disagree with you

instead of having a dialog with them which, imho, isn't the best way to bring people around.

[stevietheman]

44. I'm trying to shake my fellow gays back to rationality. Sue me. n/t

n/t

[Barack_America]

51. .

Hold your ground.

Yours is a viewpoint worth discussing.

:hug:

[EFerrari]

81. Intolerance asking for tolerance. That's rich. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

125. You can take your shake and shove it,.

Warren helped outlaw this.

My marriage.

Sorry that does bother you.

[JuniperLea]

150. You two are too stinking cute!

I haven't seen this picture... sorry it had to be in this thread.

This whole thing is an insult to everyone who is NOT a Christian and everyone who is a Constitutional purist... see my sig line.

[ekwhite]

216. RonnyK, were out there working the streets before Nov 4th?

I had people knocking on my door and arguing with my gay nephew about Prop 8. The Yes on Prop 8 signs were sprouting like weeds in my neighborhood. I couldn't even find a No on Prop 8 sign, even online! We lost on Prop 8 as much because the No on 8 campaign was poorly organized and because a lot of gays in California did not take the threat seriously. This Rick Warren sideshow is just a distraction. We need to organize to get a pro-gay marriage amendment on the ballot, and to pass the damned thing.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

236. A neighbor of mine

had a No on 8 sign - One morning when I saw him leaving in his SUV, I stopped him and asked if he had a sign I could put up in my yard - He didn't but he gave me a bumper sticker - He worked the phone banks several times a week trying to get through to people that 8 is wrong - He was so grateful that I would put a bumper sticker on my car... I will keep it on my car till my car rots.

There were bazillions of Yes on 8 signs around here too. It made my husband and Me crazy. How can people be so damned stupid?

I actually think that having a prayer in the first place is totally crazy -
Why is religion involved at all?

[ekwhite]

260. It made me and my nephew crazy, too

He is gay and HIV positive. I am more upset than he is about the whole thing, I think. He is more concerned about keeping his Medicaid and SSDI at the moment. I am frustrated that the Mormons rammed the whole damn thing down our throats, and would like to see a concerted campaign in California to repeal Prop 8. It will be one hell of a fight, though.

[mondo joe]

131. By being dismissive of us?

Great strategy there. :eyes:

[Lerrad]

63. Isn't this more Obama's ceremony than ours?

He is the one being sworn in, not us. Sure it is a time for celebration for all of us, but this is Obama's inauguration, he is the one being sworn in.

And that being said, then I feel Obama should be able to chose who ever HE wants to say the prayer at his inauguration.

[EFerrari]

82. It's his Inauguration; it's a national ceremony.

And, he is free to choose whoever he wants. But he can't chose a hateful homophobic grifter and then claim to be a "fierce advocate" for gays rights, can he?

[Lerrad]

90. Why not? What about Obama's civil rights? n/t

[EFerrari]

93. Obama is free to flipflop in public, of course!

[shellgame26]

195. SO you don't approve

of his choice of education secretary that is in favor of opening an all gay H.S so gay kids won't be bullied, or the new secretary of the navy who is openly gay or rev. Lowry who is in favor of gay rights also giving a prayer at the inauguration? Or will you just ignore all those things because of one man that will have nothing whatsoever to do with his administration?

[mondo joe]

104. He's not the king. And since you said you disapprove of being gay, your bias

is already known.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

152. Bullshit! This is OUR president and OUR national ceremony!

We need to get religion out of our government! This is an insult to everyone who is NOT a Christian!!

[localroger]

243. Unfortunately, us non-Christians...

...are also a minority. A pretty large one if you count all non-Christian religious sects, but a pretty small one and probably smaller than the GLBT minority if you count only atheists.

I have always been a bit disturbed by Obama's overt Christianity, but I think it might be necessary in the game he is playing. He has proven to be very good, and every time I've thought he misstepped he has proven to be smarter than me. I'm willing to give him a pass on this thing. When he takes office and actual policy decisions start going against my interests, THEN I will rip his heart out and eat it.

[Rockholm]

173. Like we were invited to any of Bush's tables.

[LaydeeBug]

27. Well, I'm NOT gay, but civil rights are NOT up for negotiation at the hands of "listening up".

I am also not real interested in what Osama bin Laden has to say, either.

[Heidi]

28. Unrecommend. Wish I could. Instead:

[phleshdef]

31. Probably keep acting like we are in high school. But thanks for offering some REASON.

It seems to be a growing rarity around here the past few days.

[Bluebear]

34. Yeah, because the only REASONABLE gays are the ones who are cool with the Warren pick.

Right?

[Maven]

43. Yes, if we object then we're hysterical.

[stevietheman]

50. Nothing wrong with objecting -- it's the hysteria surrounding the objection that's objectionable.

:)

[Solomon]

85. Agreed. I support gay rights too but I'm getting a little sick and

tired of the overreacting. The guy is just saying a meaningless prayer but people are acting like he just got appointed to the Supreme Court. I hate the bastard too, but let's get a grip.

[shellgame26]

196. AMEN

I didn't see such strong reactions about anything Bush did

[stevietheman]

47. I'm not cool with it at all. I'm sorry that people get the wrong impression. n/t

n/t

[phleshdef]

58. I'm not "cool with it" either. Its just not nearly as important as some are making it out to be.

[phleshdef]

54. I'll tell you what I tell opponents of gay marriage, stop bitching over something that will not have

...a realistic effect on your life.

The 2 minute prayer will not further your pain. You can pretend like it will all you want and talk about the symbolism of it all and how this guy is being given a stage for his agenda (which it isn't a stage for his agenda, its a freaking prayer). But at the end of the day, you are acting exactly like the people that are trying to prevent you from having these rights. Those people also go on about the symbolism of what marriage means to them and all this slippery slope nonsense. They are full of shit as well.

The advocacy against gay marriage is a terrible thing but our society hasn't changed enough for it to go away and you are probably looking at another 10 years or so before the culture shifts enough. An inauguration prayer however is not going to lead to one single, tangible thing that will actually hurt YOUR quality of life. Thats exactly what I tell opponents of gay marriage and now thats what I'm telling you.

Suck it up and keep fighting worthy fights for gay rights. This is not a worthy fight and won't mean anything after its all said and done.

[EFerrari]

86. But you can't possibly know that unless you are Miss Clio.

And you have no way of knowing the consequences of the gay community and their allies, not to mention women who this asshole wants to deny choice to, standing together against this sad insult. You also have no business tell others what is worthy or not worth, let alone, telling other people not to feel their own pain.

And, btw, refusing bigotry is not also bigotry. We call that "integrity". There is a vast difference.

[phleshdef]

110. I don't have to be a psychic. I just have to use some fucking common sense.

And you have no business telling me what arguments I can or can't make. I'll make them and you can live with it. The people that are making a big deal out of this decision to let Warren say a prayer are being just as unreasonable and pig headed as the bigots that oppose equal rights for homosexuals.

[EFerrari]

111. "Suck it up" is not an argument. n/t

[phleshdef]

116. Telling me what is or isn't an argument, isn't an argument.

[BR_Parkway]

197. Part of the societal shift is not giving a platform to those who speak

out against this when that platform could be used to give voice to the one's not heard who would. Because to some people watching - some other faith leader, who isn't preaching to the choir with the same old message of Warren's may be the first time in their lives that they've ever heard that someone can be homosexual AND Christian, that a man or woman of the cloth can stand forth with a message about God's love and accepting (not just tolerating) their GLBT brothers and sisters.

As far as the "it's only 2 minutes" - think back to all the famous speeches that roused this country to action - Lincoln, JFK, FDR, MLKjr - what we remember of those are snippets (not going to call them soundbytes in this day and age) but little portions under 2 minutes that summed it all up from some much longer message, that even if we had to memorize the entire thing in school, we've since forgotten.

I don't know what he will say, but based on past history, I know what he could say. And before anyone starts telling the GLBT community that it's all going to be properly vetted, blah blah blah - we've already been down this road recently. Donnie McClurkin - after everyone telling us to sit down and shut up about that one as well - got his moment in the campaign spotlight and managed to get his message out there of how sinfully wrong we were and only jeeebus could save us.

Even those of us willing to give O a pass on that one for lack of vetting are having a hard time swallowing this bitter pill.

And finally, there is no possible way for you to judge what is or isn't a worthy fight for me or anyone else besides yourself. Fighting doesn't guarantee winning - but for many of us who have been kicked around (literally and figuratively) for years - fighting what we see as an insult means not laying down at night, lying awake and wishing we had done more or spoken out.

But there has been a huge victory right here already - the number of regular, progressive DU'ers who have posted not just their support, but their stories of finally understanding what the GLBT community has been talking about in terms of institutionalized homophobia. While they were always allies, now they are armed with an awakened knowledge and ability to see - which means a larger group who can point out the wrongs and teach others. From listening to our "whining, outrages, childish" behavior.

And you know what? That is change I can believe in.

[LoZoccolo]

103. I would say that the reasonable gays are the ones...

...who have a clear strategy for getting what they want.

[John Q. Citizen]

41. Obama shows no courage in this. He shows only political calculation. It's sad really.

I'm straight, I'm not angry. I'm sad that Obama is chicken on civil rights. He was also chicken on the 4th amedment and rule of law vis a vis FISA, so I'm afraid it might be a pattern here.

We got a cute chicken who talk good but is fundamentally timid against oppression.

Or is two in a row too soon to make that call on?

[sunnystarr]

222. On the contrary - Obama shows incredible courage in this

He is consistent with what he's said all along. He has said that the way to cure the division in this country is to find common ground with those you have disagreements. He is leading by example and he made sure to have the other viewpoint represented in the Benediction with the Reverend Dr. Joseph E Lowery. My original reaction was that Obama made a grave mistake. But in further reflection he has been true to himself and the country.

While I've always been a supporter of Gay and Lesbian rights and long for the day when all in this country will be treated equally, the reaction here on DU has been way over the top.

[John Q. Citizen]

232. You haven't been anywhere else on the webs? NOW has publically asked Obama to recind the invitation

because of Warrens oft repeated misogynistic views. He knows that women are subservient to men and he advocates that. I'm sure if his church and others ran a successful initiative to repeal women's sufferage you and Obama wouldn't have a problem putting him up on that mega stage the whole world will be watching and proclaiming our common humanity, right?

People for the American Way have taken a stand against this invitation.


Why does Obama not reach out to David Duke and stick him up on the mega stage? I'll tell you why. He's just another racist homophobe without a major congregation behind him. There is absolutely nothing to be gained personally for Obama by reaching out to him. But Warren is the leader of the fourth largest congregation in America. Obama is perfectly willing to throw his progressive supporters under the bus and "reach out" to all those potential votes as he confers legitimacy on a bigot.

I've always been for human rights, and i still am. In fact my loyalty to human rights far exceeds my loyalty to any pandering politician, including Obama.

I'm a straight white single dad of three kids.

By the way. I don't advocate that Obama not talk to either Duke or to Warren. I just think it's an insult to human decency to stick them up on that mega stage and confer legitimacy on them in this way.

For Obama to characterize bigotry as a "difference of opinion" would be akin to caricaturization of women as chattel as a difference of opinion, child labor as a "difference of opinion," child brides as a "difference of opinion," child soldiers as a "difference of opinion," slavery as a "difference of opinion."

Why is Obama afraid to specifically name what those differences are and to specifically state why his opinion is different from Warren? Because he wants to obscure what Warren actually preaches. He preaches hate, fear, and exclusion. Obama prefer to call that "different opinions."

Which is cowardly, or utterly cynical, or both.

[scheming daemons]

42. Sad.... all the work making this OP, and you don't realize you've already been deemed irrelevant

...by the purity police.


Be gone, you.


There's no place for you in this discussion.

[Bluebear]

48. We meet again.

See? Now people who ARE upset by this "fuck-up" we agreed upon are being dismissively called the "purity police".

[Runcible Spoon]

57. welcome to the Purity Club!

Speaking out about Warren just bought me another year's membership yay! I've been marginalized like that ever since I questioned Obama's economic team forever ago. Not even in a nasty, derisive way either lol. However, we welcome you to the Club if you would like to join, and I think you will like the company here!

[Lerrad]

45. At last, someone I can agree with.

It took me while, but I can understand why some do not like Warren, and therefor I can understand why they don't want him to say a prayer at the inauguration.

The biggest complaint I have found in this forum the last few days seem to be that the gays feel that Warren is infringing on their civil rights. I would have to agree that he is, but Warren saying a prayer at the inauguration is not infringing on anyones civil rights.

He will say the prayer, and Obama will be president, and then Obama will try to salvage what is left of this great country of ours, and that will include fighting for civil rights and the right to civil unions.

K&R!

[mondo joe]

105. Since you said you disapprove of being gay, that doesn't speak well of the OP.

[Lerrad]

113. Are you confusing me with someone else? I never said:

>>Since you said you disapprove of being gay<<

[mondo joe]

130. Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8001735&mesg_id=8003867

"No, SpookyCat I don't hate gays.

I have no problem with it at all. I don't understand it, and I don't approve of it, but it makes no difference to me."

[mondo joe]

133. You fucking said it AGAIN in this same thread. Are you drunk? NT

[ronnykmarshall]

127. Yeah one of the *good* gays.

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

132. When the poster who says he doesn't approve of gays agrees with the gay OP,

chances are they're both fucked up.

[thewiseguy]

46. I am straight and pissed at Obama for this.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

60. The way Clarence Thomas is the favorite black man among certain circles. NT

[stevietheman]

62. Wow that's easy to turn around

Evangelicals are 20% of the population. LGBTs are what percentage? Probably less. Probably a lot less.

The bottom line is that we *have* to live with these people. They're not going away.

Further, endless outrage instead of concentrating on problem solving is indeed unproductive.

I think we should go with being adults.

[Neecy]

74. how old are you?

I mean, seriously.

Do you really, honestly think that outreach to the fundie community will cause them to suddenly love us? There's a very long history that says exactly the opposite.

So do you think that we should accept every outrage like meek children and go back quietly into our closets? Is there ever a breaking point for you? I've lived through a hell of a lot of their hatred and personally, I'm done taking shit from either the evangelical community or those in the Democratic party who pander to it at our expense.

[motely36]

56. K&R

by a proud Gay American

[Gregorian]

59. Thank you! I've been thinking, why isn't this all under the heading of Civil Rights?

Those in prison for hardly any reasonable reason. Like cannabis.

I agree with the subject in general. However, it seems awfully shortsighted of people to focus on sexuality (edit- I didn't mean sexuality. I meant the peripheral civil rights associated with it.) as one of the civil rights facets. Please, there are so many of us who are being lost in this discussion.

I'm single. And I'll never marry. So what do I stand to gain in any of these discussions? None. I'm here for all of us.

[soleft]

61. Mob rule is not a democratic result

[stevietheman]

66. The people of California had the right to vote for Prop 8, even if they were wrong to me and you. nt

n/t

[KurtNYC]

75. and that big church in UTAH had the right to pimp their bigotry to CA?

As if THEY believe that marriage is between one man and ONE woman. Now THERE is hypocrisy.

[ronnykmarshall]

128. The right to vote for bigotry?

Bull-fucking-shit.

Easy for you to say. You don't live here.

[readmoreoften]

241. And I have the right to call them bigoted assholes. And to point out you've never

mentioned being gay on this forum.

[last1standing]

64. Uncle Rufus thinks that black people were happy being slaves.

You could have your own animated character. :wow:

[pecwae]

76. Some posters in this thread

who are giving a big thumbs up for the OP wouldn't be so self righteous if Pastor Thomas Robb was the one offering the prayer. They would be correct, but since it's just the Gays being hysterical about Warren all's cool.

[1776Forever]

65. If Rick Warren had showed tolerence with gays then I could show him some - He has not done that ever

You can hold on to your views and I respect them but I don't think this man has showed the loving Christian views that I feel Jesus would want to show to all his beloved. What Warren has done and said is more then enough to not give him a platform in the next Administration. How many more times will he be showing up? Will he become Obama's Billy Graham? Just asking - I don't think Warren has even budged on showing equal respect and rights to all and the 14th Amendment mean nothing to him!

[a la izquierda]

155. He DID give them donuts...

according to his interview with Ann Curry. :sarcasm:

I haven't offered much input, but as a straight woman, I'm extremely dismayed by this choice. And to think, I almost laid down a few thousand bucks to go to the inauguration. I'm thrilled I decided against it.

[Asgaya Dihi]

68. Democratic result?

Since when could rights be stripped from ANYONE by a simple majority vote?

The California Supreme Court ruled that under their Constitution those rights should have already been guaranteed and from now on they are. If someone wants to challenge that they should probably take it to a higher court and get the ruling reversed but as long as it stands anyone who isn't upset by what happened isn't paying attention. I'm NOT gay and I'm pissed. First of all it's wrong, and second of all once we set the precedent that someones rights can be removed by simple majority vote the rights of NONE of us will be safe from the judgment of the mob.

In spite Of popular misconceptions we DO NOT live in a Democracy and it's for exactly that reason. We live in a Democratic Republic. A major difference between them being the guarantee of rights to minorities and protection from persecution at the hands of a majority, the founding fathers feared the mob almost as much as they feared a King. Now those protections are being stripped as if they mean nothing and we've got people telling us to stop being angry about it.

This is not a gay/straight issue, it's a right and wrong issue and anyone who isn't pissed isn't paying attention.

[1776Forever]

71. Right on! What if Warren had used the same language about Jews, or Blacks? Would he still be there

Why pick this man who called gay members of our party who believe that their rights were invaded by saying that members of his (Warren's) church should vote for Prop 8 because he believes that gay marriage is akin to incest, child rape and polygamy?

[DutchLiberal]

138. "Since when could rights be stripped from ANYONE by a simple majority vote?"

Since 1942. Just ask any Japanese American who was around in those days.

You have no rights. You have privileges, which can be taken away every moment if the rulers wish to.

[Asgaya Dihi]

140. And what simple majority vote was that?

I never suggested the nation is all good and pure or has never done wrong, it certainly has and probably will again. But in the case you mention it was an act of Congress and no act of the people. It was no simple ballot measure which is what I was arguing against. You can't strip rights with a voters initiative, with an act of Congress and a large enough majority maybe you can in some cases depending on the situation, some need 2/3 margins and I can't swear where the lines are there.

In any case I'm not so sure 1942 was legal either, this administration ignored or broke the law and past ones have as well. Just because it happened that doesn't make it ok or a model for future behavior, we've since *admitted* it was wrong and apologized for that one.

We're supposed to try to drag them back to legal means when that happens. Not just throw our hands up and accept that we have no rights, someone else is in charge of our lives. The fight for civil rights has never been a straight road. There's always been advances mixed with setbacks. Stop fighting for those rights and there's just the setbacks, the other side isn't going to stop pushing just because we do.

You might believe you have privileges, but the rest of us have rights and I don't plan to stop fighting for them any time soon.

[DutchLiberal]

255. "It was an act of Congress." That was what I was referring to...

Congress had to vote on it, didn't it?

"You might believe you have privileges, but the rest of us have rights and I don't plan to stop fighting for them any time soon."

That's very noble, but where do these 'rights' come from? They didn't come falling out of the sky. Somebody invented them. They weren't around since the beginning of time. A 'right' is an idea. And, as we learned from the internment, they can be revoked when the people who are in power think they're no longer valid ideas.

I don't pretend I was smart enough to realize this all by myself, I was inspired by Carlin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F1Lq1uFcAE

[Asgaya Dihi]

257. Carlin was a genuis, no doubt

Yes, Congress had to vote on it, but as I already pointed out I was talking about proposition 8 at the time and that wasn't an act of Congress, it was voters initiative. Context is everything, a different case from 50+ years ago where a method I didn't say we can't do was used is pretty well irrelevant to the argument I made I'd think.

"That's very noble, but where do these 'rights' come from?"

Us of course, but you already know that.

Problem is that all morality is just something we invented, though judging by animal studies probably based on evolved urges. Wasn't any such thing as law before us though. Murder is wrong because society says it is, so is rape, robbery, and any number of other schemes we have come up with over time to separate us from a more base past. Unless we plan to go back to living in the trees or something it's all just an invention we came up with, all of it. And all progress from there to here was because enough of us demanded better. They demanded and fought for it, sometimes died for it.

Some people are in it just for themselves, we see a lot of that in the repubs. Screw the environment, the poor, and whatever else they don't have a personal stake in. Myself, I see that as just giving up to our baser instincts. Others try to rise above and to raise us, as a society and if we're lucky as a people in general. We've all got to pick a side and as the old song says if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.

It's never been a straight road. Not since we first climbed out of those trees. Not for civil rights, personal freedoms, or the right to even have a basic education. Was a time when you could be killed just for learning to read unless you were clergy or nobility, it was restricted just to them to control the flow of knowledge. Year by year, decade by decade, century by century we pick a side and hope our kids will have a better life than we did. And when there are setbacks, and there always have been and will be, we pick up where we can and start again. The other path is to just give up and let the baser side of us win. And with that to abandon our kids to it. That I just can't bring myself to do.

[DutchLiberal]

265. I agree with you on all points. However,

I was taking the example of the Japanese Americans just to point out that 'rights' we have now and which we believe are 'permanent', can be taken away from us at any time. Then what do we do? Who stood up for the Japanese Americans during WWII? Nobody. They were stripped from their rights and that was that. No protests, no demonstrations, no mass turnout against the decision. And that was a democratic government. Imagine that.

In the United States, the leader of the free world, a thing called the Military Commissions Act has passed. The President or Secretary of Defense can single-handedly decide you are an enemy of the state, have you arrested and thrown in jail. You're not allowed a lawyer, you're not allowed a trial. You, as an American citizen, can be subject to that treatment. And it's legal now. It's a law. Nobody protested it. No people in the streets. No demonstrations against this dictatorial measure. So if they take you away tomorrow... What are you gonna do?

I'm not saying believing there are basic 'rights' everybody should have, is a bad thing, or foolish or naive. Far from that. But I do agree with Carlin that the 'rights' we enjoy now can be taken away at any moment and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Asgaya Dihi]

268. Fair enough

I don't disagree with you in the slightest. We established them and if we take them for granted we can lose them as well. They are only "rights" as long as we remember how we earned them and how to keep them. By fighting for them and staying vigilant. That's how we got them in the first place and if we forget that I don't disagree that they could easily be at risk.

The old poem about "but there was nobody left to speak for me" has always struck a chord with me. Too often that's exactly where we seem to end up I guess. We have to learn to get past self interest or the politics of the moment and start to think about what's right. In a lot of respects. These days to tell the truth I've got less hope than I did a year ago, it seems too many are willing to attack our own and try to silence opposition in the same way as the other side did to us for so many years. We got the chance to make real change but too many are afraid to make waves so instead we'll have a number of Sister Souljah moments.

This is short term though, we're on the ass end of a string of protests and fights that has run for longer than history can track and it's happened before. Won't do me any good on a personal level if it goes on for too long but as long as enough of us keep the right ideas awake they'll have a better chance later maybe. General trend over the long term has been toward improvement even if the short term gets pretty ugly at times so when it gets depressing I try to keep my eye on the long term instead. Better than crawling into a corner and rolling into a ball ;)

Peace.

[Bluenorthwest]

210. There was no vote on the internment

There was not a majority vote of the people, not any vote of the people at all.

[DutchLiberal]

256. There was in the Congress. Please read my response to Dihi above.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sundog]

77. yeah, tolerance on everyone else's terms

as usual

sorry, i'm not buying

[EFerrari]

84. And at the expense of others. That's not tolerance.

That's blame shifting.

[TheWraith]

83. I think that long term, Prop 8 is actually going to be good for gay rights.

It's motivated and radicalized a lot of people who wouldn't really do anything otherwise.

You're right though. People around here seem to think that the right way to go is to behave the way the Republicans did, shutting out everyone who isn't us. I have to admit I feel the same temptation for revenge, but we wouldn't be who we are if we weren't all about being better and more open than they are.

[Bjorn Against]

169. Prop 8 will not be good for gay rights unless people fight it.

I don't know how you can possibly claim in one sentence that Prop 8 is going to be good because it motivated and radicalized people, and then in the next sentence discourage people from been motivated and radicalized by suggesting that we should be more open with those who want to take away people's civil rights.

[IndianaGreen]

87. You don't get it either!

[Political Tiger]

100. We're not blaming Mormons and blacks for Prop 8 anymore?

Suddenly it's all Rick Warrens fault?

You know, California isn't the only state to suffer the intolerance of the anti-gay movement.

Here in Florida voters passed a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and civil unions, by a larger majority of voters than in California, yet nobody seems bothered by that.

In Arizona voters decided gays can't adopt children, but you never hear a peep about that.

Where's the outrage?

It's all California and proposition 8, all the time.

And although Rick Warren is an asshole, he's not responsible for prop 8. He didn't put it on the ballot nor did he force people to vote for it. Pretending that by getting rid of Warren everything is suddenly going to be just fine and dandy is ridiculous!

[wildonion]

119. yeah, who'd a thunk conservative churches woulda been organized on Prop 8?

If gays can't get organized for a campaign in California, they can't organize anywhere, IMHO

[Creideiki]

139. The adoption amendment was in Arkansas

And yes, there are people bringing that up, also. Doesn't mean that any part of the civil rights struggle is less important.

[Amimnoch]

214. The reason California invokes more outrage is because California is supposed to be a friendly state.

It's the difference between having someone who's a known adversary, and a believed friend doing something that hurts you.

Like with Warren, if say George Bush had used Warren at his ceremony, nobody would blink an eyelash, because someone like Warren would be expected there. President Obama is someone who many of us supported in the election with money, and time. He assured us of his dedication to our equality on more than one occaison, and frankly it's painful that he gives a person like Warren the national stage at such a historic moment.

If someone who you know and realise is your adversary, you expect them to do things that are hurtful to you.. but when it's someone who's supposed to be your friend, or ally.. yes, it invokes a much stronger emotional response.

[wildonion]

262. & they screwed up a campaign in their friendliest state. They have to blame someone, & they aren't

going to accept responsibility for their own campaign that tried to ignore the conservative churches.

Whoulda thunk conservative churches woulda organized on Prop 8?

[Spryboy]

88. It is NOT over-reaction

It is NOT over-reaction when people vote by simple majority to strip an entire minority class of people of their existing civil rights.

It is NOT over-reaction to respond with shock to an icon of change choosing to honor and give a huge platform to, and an aura of respect to, a virulent bigot.

No, the extreme anger doesn't need to come to a close. QUITE THE OPPOSITE. I'm sick and tired of being kicked around with impugnity.

You need to stop being a passive, apathetic doormat. You need to start getting a spine, and stand up for yourself and your rights and your dignity.

You do not create "unity" by choosing such a divisive, polarizing, ignorant bigot to share the stage with you at your innauguration.

You're completely off base here, and really need to stop, sit down, and think again.

[jberryhill]

91. This is like watching a skeet shooting competition....

[donco6]

94. There's nothing wrong with drawing a line.

Warren is beynd it. Simple and unhysterical.

[Political Tiger]

96. Amen!

Enough of the victim hood! We have survived worse things than Rick Warren for God's sake!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

97. You want to understand the people who hate you?

You can't be this goddamn stupid.

[mondo joe]

106. He has an admitted anti-gay person in this thread agreeing with his OP, so that

should tell you everything you need to know.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

108. His real name must be Stevie Cohn.

[mondo joe]

109. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8001735&mesg_id=8003867

[gravity]

118. How else do you expect to change anything?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

126. You don't get it.

Rick Warren and Co. have already fired the first shot with Prop 8. Accommodating them only legitimizes them and their ideas.

[mnhtnbb]

101. I'm straight and I'm glad to see people who don't want to see a misogynistic bigot given a platform

at Obama's inaugural stand up and say so.

Rick Warren and his supporters did not bring Obama to that platform. Millions of people, straight and gay, busted their asses to put Obama there. If he doesn't get that giving such a place of honor
to such a notorious bigot isn't insulting, then Obama is more dense than I thought, but just about as arrogant as I imagined.

[polichick]

156. Ditto - well said.

[Qibing Zero]

114. Can we put the 'hypocrisy' argument to rest please?

There is a monumental difference between rejecting someone for their views and rejecting someone based solely on genetic traits.

[wildonion]

115. "are we going to keep acting like we're in high school?"

As the responses from the over-bloviated, over the top, self-indulgent virtual pundits show, your reasonable post maligns high school kids everywhere.

Ya shoulda said elementary school.

[rhett o rick]

124. I can work and WHINE. Also, if "Obama is trying to get the entire country behind him."

i'd think he would stay away from the fringe loonies.

[mondo joe]

134. Clue: When you have people who state that they disapprive of gays lauding your OP,

there's probably something wrong with it.

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1776Forever]

141. What if Warren or anyone had said the same things about any other minority, would you feel the same?

Warren has said gay marriage is akin to incest, child rape and polygamy. Do you accept this as fair? It isn't about gay rights as much to me as it is the insensitivity that Warren shows and spews out as Gospel. Jesus never said anything about Gay people like this, and Warren's views are against the 14th Amendment also. I just don't think this is the time to give someone like this man a stage and condone his views. I know it probably is going to go on, but for me it is a very sad decision.

[BootinUp]

142. Holy moly

what an intelligent post. I hope you are safely anonymous so as not to be attacked, shunned, etc. in real life.

[ronnykmarshall]

143. FYI, hon ....

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/12/19/state/n150241S64.DTL&tsp=1

Prop. 8 sponsors seek to nullify 18K gay marriages
By LISA LEFF, Associated Press Writer


The sponsors of Proposition 8 asked the California Supreme Court on Friday to nullify the marriages of the estimated 18,000 same-sex couples who exchanged vows before voters approved the ballot initiative that outlawed gay unions.


High school?

You should be ashamed.

[JerseygirlCT]

144. There was nothing democratic about Prop 8 - or better put

nothing Constitutional.

The majority does not get to decide on whether individuals have civil rights. Civil rights are inherent - they can't be taken or overruled by a majority mob. We are not a "majority rules" country.

So the answer is not an answering proposition - the point is that that proposition had no business being voted on to begin with. And the state constitution, and possibly the USSC, need to rule on that and make the point clear.

This past summer, the CA SC recognized that the state was failing to recognize the inherent rights of gays and lesbians to equality. They didn't award them new rights; they saw a flaw in the state's laws and ordered it fixed.

[Bluebear]

146. Here it comes, toots, see link. Still overreacting?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4685771&mesg_id=4685771

[JuniperLea]

148. You're not the only gay in the village...

And this isn't just about gays anyway. This is about getting religion out of our government and our laws. This is an insult to anyone who is NOT a Christian. Mostly it's an insult against those who hold the Constitution as something precious!

See my sig line!

[lenegal]

149. Thank you so much for being a voice of reason in a sea of anger.

One invocation. A few minutes. That's all.

[Bluebear]

151. BREAKING: Prop 8 supporters want 18000 marriages to be nullified,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4685771&mesg_id=4685771

"That's all"

[JuniperLea]

153. I want all religion out of my government!

Those bastards are going to rot in hell for making baby Jesus cry! If there is a hell...

[Bluebear]

154. No, we're just "angry". We're not "reasonable".

[Politicalboi]

157. This is History

In the making. And a slap in the face. I am gay and don't want that shit stain Warren there. It's like having a Klan's man in a Hawaiian shirt there. Just for fun Obama should have a Muslim prayer. How do you think that hate would go over.

[Jackeens]

160. stevietheman, you're a legend! K&R

[madmadmad]

228. GOD, I WISH YOUR TOMBSTONING HAD STUCK.

YOUR DEAD GAY FRIEND IS ROLLING IN HIS GRAVE. AS IS EVERYONE WHO EVER FOUGHT AGAINST RACISM AND INJUSTICE.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SweetieD]

167. I agree with you OP.

And I know every person agreeing with the op gets jumped on about it, but I don't care. I really don't care about this Warren thing at all. It would be hard to find a mainstream, christian preacher who agrees with gay marraige, that's just a reality. And Hillary and Obama, as well as the Democratic Platform have never pushed for gay marraige, so I don't understand why there is any surprise here. Personally, I don't have an issue with gay marraige. I have a bigger issue with the entire idea of a national prayer and benediction. I don't think that is appropriate in a federal gov't ceremony.

[Bjorn Against]

168. The result of Prop 8 was not democratic.

Democracy is not just about majority rule, it is also about minority rights. It is undemocratic to take rights away from minority groups.

[madmadmad]

170. this is the saddest post i'veever seen on the DU. i'm thinking stockholm syndrome.

[bluedawg12]

172. These threads need to stop, telling people what they can talk about.

If your gay and it doesn't bother you then post about an issue that matters to you.

For me gay civil rights matters, in fact it is the single one thing that citizens can work at on a grass root level, everything else is entirely too huge and needs top level political muscle power.

[LittleClarkie]

174. A breeder speaks

Was Rosa Parks overreacting when she refused to get out of her seat?

It would seem to be a matter of civil rights here.

[pettypace]

175. Democratic result of Prop 8

The best line in your excellent post.

I was hoping there was someone like you on DU who could verbalize these opinions.

People need to get over their own conflictions - die hard supports of Barach, someone who is AGAINST gay marriage, not neutral, AGAINST. Wonder how they wrap their minds around that one.

[pinstikfartherin]

178. I see the bottom line as this..

Bitching on an internet message board is not going to get anyone anywhere. Yes, this was a bad choice on Obama's part. Yes, people should be angry. I think it is horrible and I understand the anger. However, people are bickering and pissing one another off when we should be getting together to do something constructive.

Again, bitching gets you no where. What are we going to do to have our voices heard? Everyone needs to shut up and work together. Formulate a plan. Put plan into action. WORK FUCKING TOGETHER instead of tearing one another apart.

You agree that it was wrong? DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Even if it does no good at least you can say you did something more than just sit and bitch on a message board.

All I've seen is bitching. Let's work together.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8008547

[ooglymoogly]

187. U underestimate the power of the DU message board..nt

[snake in the grass]

179. I'm straight...

...and I don't think it is overreacting at all. It is a mistake to cater to the religious nutjobs while ignoring your base (and by base I mean all liberals, not just the gay ones). Taking away rights from a minority because one doesn't like that minority is a very serious matter. For whom will the come next time around? I support the opposition to this wholeheartedly. If not now, when?

[Veruca Salt]

180. They came first for the Communists,

and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one left to speak up.
-Rev. Martin Niemoller

It's how it starts, by demonizing a group of people. That's why I'm of mixed opinion on this guy even being at the inauguration. It would be one thing if the guy renounced everything he ever said about us but he didn't and the things he said are ugly, hateful and troubling. He is, for lack of a better definition, palinizing the gay community by comparing us to child molesters. Just like Palin tried to do with Obama when she used her double speak with her hatemonger base by saying he 'pal'd around with terrorists'. It's the tactic of using fear to incite a mob against a person or group of people you don't like.

So, this guy is going to give the invocation then... as I said, mixed opinion. The other is that he's just giving the invocation and not going to be spouting his hate from this national stage (one of which I'll be attending). But still, why does it have to be him? Because he's known as some big time fundamentalist? It's supposed to show inclusion of the fundies? Is it the ramp up to striking down DOMA by attempting to placate the fundies so they won't riot as much?

I don't know Obama's intentions. I know that I don't like it one bit, but I'm going to give Obama time. What we need to see is something on the scale of Loving v. Virginia; and I'm sure that when that happens it will end up with one hell of an outcry from the fundies and likely some turbulent times, but it needs to be done. No more putting civil rights on the ballot for a majority to decide.

[JanusAscending]

181. Stevietheman

I salute you!:patriot: :yourock:

[donheld]

182. This gay man couldn't agree more!

[madmadmad]

225. i feel bad for you, too- you've been shit on for so long, you think you deserve it.

this gay man is sick of it and wants the same rights and respect accorded any american- i'm sick and tired of being the last minority group of whom is okay to publicly vilify. the outcry over warren PALES in comparison to the outcry that would be heard if a preacher who preached against blacks or jews was invited to give the invocation, or god forbid, a harmless lil atheist were invited.

grow up and realize- THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS!

[ecstatic]

247. There may be many more gays on DU who agree with the OP, but are vafraid

to say it because they know they will be met with hateful reactions--like yours.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divine Discontent]

188. what a bizarre message.

you sound like my closeted old roommate who hated Gay pride parades, hated discussion of being gay in public, and on and on.

The HATE SPEECH that comes out of Warren's mouth (I doubt you know it all, do you know he calls stopping Gays from getting full rights a HUMANITARIAN ISSUE?) is not something that deserved such a noble assignment on Inauguration Day.

Thanks for your post, but I disagree with you. Obama has not proven to being a fierce supporter of anything gay. Anyone saying they're FIERCELY for gay people would support Gay Marriage anyhow, and that he does not.

[PeteytehMawnstar]

244. strange

lol, your name reminded me of a marty i knew once. :hippie: :party:


But anyways, I've been wanting to post/subscribe here for sometime, and this poster/OP finally got me motivated enough to do it. I think you're very brave, and have done a wonderful thing. Stand tall, and don't let anyone yell you down. I know how it feels to be gay and not be on the same page as the rest of the "community". My position on this subject is quite nuanced, and i enjoy discussing it, but not with people who tend to gang up on you forcibly shouting your wrong. I wish govt. were not involved in defining who is married, and who isn't. I think it leads to more problems, like this one. Gay marriage doesn't rank high on my gay issue wish list, adoption and our security in other unfriendly countries topping the list, nor do i believe marriage to be a gateway to solving any of these issues. I found it incredibly strange how the California case turned out, and assumed a lack of no on 8 support. It's really the only thing that made sense considering the support we would normally receive in such instances.


What bugs me is the outrage this Obama decision has garnered, compared to say, the outrage that should have been present for someone like Holder, if you care about civil liberties as much as i do. (sorry bad choice of words there)

You all have a great day, hope i don't wake up tomorrow to find myself already banned.

;) :toast:

[Mithreal]

190. Tolerate the intolerant? What the hell? Did I just read that? nt

[cboy4]

191. You're like the African American who tells blacks to quit whining

about racism, discrimination and affirmative action, etc.

In other words, why would you bother mentioning you're gay?

So the rest of us can do the heavy lifting so you have rights?

Yea, I thought so. Disgusting.

[shellgame26]

193. Who was elected president again?

Was it Rick Warren or Obama? Last time I checked Obama just appointed an education secretary in favor of opening a gay only H.S so gay kids won't get bullied and there's word that the new secretary of the navy is openly gay, then there's the gay marriage proponent Rev. Lowry also saying some useless prayer at the inauguration...WTF??? COncentration camps??? Overreact much???

[nichomachus]

194. You don't get the entire country behind you by selling out your supporters

Rule #1 of politics.

If you fuck over your supporters to honor the people who opposed you, you are headed for a one-term administration.

[km1550]

199. Well, I'm gay too...

and with friends like you, who needs enemies.

Can anyone say "Uncle Tom".

[Deja Q]

205. Didn't Nader say "Uncle Tom"? He got a nasty response by doing so.

[nadine_mn]

200. I'm not gay and I am upset about Warren and Prop 8

You have a right to not give a shit about your civil rights being taken away by prejudice and bigotry. But I refuse to stand idly by and watch.

Its not about being gay...its about civil rights, and its about fostering a culture where it is ok to discriminate.

If it can be done to gays without outrage, it can continue to happen to other groups. Allowing one minority to be stripped of humanity starts us on a slippery slope and I feel pretty grown up about being angry.

[galaxy21]

221. "Allowing one minority to be stripped of humanity starts us on a slippery slope"

I personally think its enough to say 'gay people were wronged by the passing of prop 8' rather than scaring people into it by saying 'you could be next!'

No one is going to take away Latinos voting rights or stop interracial marriages from happening. Because those things are settled law. Realistically, that could never happen.

[nadine_mn]

231. Really... because if you look

at election results, miniorities were repeatedly denied the right to vote in the last few elections. It wasn't white people purged from voting rolls.

And yes, because of Loving v Virginia, interracial marriages are allowed - but there was a time when they weren't and it had to go to court to getting a ruling on a right that already existed.

And if you don't think recent rulings on who can adopt doesn't affect us all, then you are in for a rude awakening

[galaxy21]

233. "at election results, miniorities were repeatedly denied the right to vote in the last few elections

That was more to do with the way they voted (democrat) rather than the fact they were actually voted. If they voted republican, they'd go out of their way to ensure they voted. They prefer white people voting because they usually vote republican. Its a strategic move, rather than prejudiced one.

"And yes, because of Loving v Virginia, interracial marriages are allowed - but there was a time when they weren't and it had to go to court to getting a ruling on a right that already existed"

Again, though. There are very few people that would want to ban it now. It wouldn't happen. So scaring voters into saying 'they took away gay marriage, they'll take away your interracial marriage!' is fearmongering.


"And if you don't think recent rulings on who can adopt doesn't affect us all, then you are in for a rude awakening"

I was referring more to gay marriage than anything else.

[DailyGrind51]

203. Would that everyone have your attitude!

[quickesst]

208. Given many of the reactions....

...to your open, and honest statement, I believe you have managed to create a lesson for the "School of Spin", that, if adopted by the right-wing, would be required reading for graduation. I'd venture that was not your intent when you started this thread. Thanks.
quickesst

[Solon]

211. Anyone who says GLBT people are overreacting to Prop. 8 gets a hearty fuck you from me. n/t

[Baby Snooks]

212. Jews for Hitler

There were many Jews in the beginning who felt "conciliation" was the proper response. After all, they were "accepted" within German society and had been for some time. Many were wealthy and contributed to German society. They were bankers, doctors, artists, philanthropists. They, too, were "good Germans" in the beginning. Jews for Hitler. And then, suddenly, they were not Germans at all. Just Jews. Undesireables. And they were loaded on the box cars and shipped off to Auschwitz along with all the other undesireables. And no one said a word as they were.

The winds of war always begin with a slight breeze that no one notices. Or that everyone believes is just a slight breeze.

[ekwhite]

213. K&R Indeed!

I am tired of all these people who were too busy partying in West Hollywood to organize having a fit on the internet because of Rick Warren. The level of complacency and incompetence on the part of the No on 8 campaign was frustrating to me. Where were all of you activists when we could have used you out here in California?

[Bluenorthwest]

215. So share with us

I'd love to hear some of your stories of organizing and gaining victory on political causes. What did you do during the 80's? Do you know what others did for you, then and earlier? Do you know how they/we did that?
Just wondering what sort of context you are functioning in. All of us, of all ages, need to acknowlege and learn about what those who came before us did to make the world better for us in our time. Be we gay or straight or bi or trans or anything, we need to know and honor those people and actions that allow us to live more freely than the people who made the way for us. Every shred of equality and acceptance you and I enjoy today was hard won by brave people who stood strongly for what is right. If we don't know about that histroy, we don't know a thing. We don't even know our selves.
So tell us about your stories of victory for a gay cause, or any minority cause. It would be great if you could include specific details. Thanks.

[Lindsey]

217. I'm gay and I agree with the O.P. Getting married isn't the biggest

issue to me in my country or in my life. I live in California and I agree with another poster (I didn't read them all and I don't remember who said it) who wondered where were all of these protesters when we needed them (and what I mean by that is BEFORE November 4th). There are issues much more important and I'm sorry that so many people are so upset over this.

[Bluenorthwest]

219. As you replied without response

I'll point out that I am asking the OP, and now you, to share specifics of the victories you have gained by playing along your rules?
Some of us are not 26, some of us have been in the same relationship that long. Some of us want to make sure the law protects our partners and families that exist now. Not 'getting married' but having the legal and financial protection for the family that we now have.
Do you have a family? Do you have any assests? Why do you assume that the quality of issues is determined by what is important to you? Consider that many of the economic factors that are very bad for most, actually are great for me. Shall I then say, hell, housing crisis and deflation are a huge boon to me, so screw y'all if it costs you, I gain, and that is the crux of it?
Must it benefit you personally to be important?

If you really want a pre-Nov 4th report, we can do that sometime too. Our side was playing far too gently, and tried to do it with respect. That was the mistake. The gloves are off now. Also bear in mind that CA was far from the only State facing such legislation. Many people could not come help in CA as they had stuff to do in their own States.
You live in CA. What did you do prior to Nov 4th? You. As a resident. Just curious. Who did you call to join you 'when you needed them'? What actions did you yourself take?

[LostinVA]

281. It is very sad that equal civil rights are not your "biggest issue"

[mudesi]

218. Sigh...

I'm not gay, and your opinion is cowardly at best.

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MNBrewer]

229. Just because the issue of rights was voted on doesn't make it OK to take them away

Is there no protection under the law?

Tyranny of the majority YAY!!! :sarcasm:

[dcsmart]

234. direct action for change

there is only the confrontation between class. class struggle. this country began from revolution and demand for equal rights (although that was only for white males) but the ideas behind the Constitution and Declaration of Independence are sound. There is no pursuit of happiness, life, or liberty without equal rights and treatment under the law. This vote simply denied a class of people these rights. Period. Now it is time for the struggle (again). This country is built on the struggle for equal rights. Direct Action, through the ballot box, through protests, through sit-ins, through legal action. anyway you look at it prop 8 denies equal rights, and is therefore, immoral. it does not matter who or how many vote for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI__6ZZ_kAc
just a look at what is needed.


EDITOR
PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRACY
http://timetofight.tumblr.com/

[Richd506]

235. Look I'm pissed about the whole thing too

The selection of Rick Warren was one of Obama's poorer decisions and he's done very little to speak up for gay rights . But nevertheless, stevietheman has a point. We shouldn't let our anger get the best of us. And we certainly shouldn't be so quick to mold our opinion of Obama when, number one, he hasn't taken the oath of office yet and number two, he is completely right on many of the critical issues our nation is facing. When Obama said he was going to reach across the isle, he actually meant it. He wasn't just saying that to garner votes. And right now, if we're going to get anything done, that's what we need. That's what Lincoln did and look at the things he accomplished because of it.

Now I agree with a lot of you that we need to hold Obama to the fire on this. I myself am bisexual and it was very disheartening to see what happened in California. But you have a choice; you can either kick and scream about it or you can use your energy constructively and work on a repeal. This does not make me an uncle tom of gay rights for believing this. A lot of us have had ENOUGH of the fighting and we need to start working together. This is one thing I happen to agree with moderates on.

[dmallind]

238. No you can't be

You must either be a troll or a self-loathing man who's not really gay just confused about your sexuality! Everybody knows there's only one valid and Real Gay© opinion on this matter

Once again there are times when only validated lack of faith in my fellow humans makes this necessary.... :sarcasm:

[Truth2Tell]

239. I'm not gay, and I'm tired of the not-gay underreaction to Prop 8 and Rick Warren. nt

[readmoreoften]

240. Wait. You've never been gay before. This seems pretty new.

Plus 90 recs from straight assholes.

[ecstatic]

245. how do you know all the recs are from "straight assholes?"

And why would someone with over 1000 posts suddenly lie about being gay?

Your post is not very nice. :(

[Solon]

246. Was the OP nice? The response was expected.

Oh, and it wouldn't be the first time someone pretended on here to be gay to present bigoted or insensitive viewpoints. Do people so quickly forget the "Stupid fucking queers" guy?

[ecstatic]

248. There are at least 2 other gays in this thread who agree

probably many more but they won't come forward due to the vitriol they'd be met with. Let's face it, discussion is often shut down on DU.

I don't remember the guy who snapped, but maybe he was self hating or frustrated with his peers? Sometimes I feel like yelling out "stupid f*cking liberals" but that doesn't make me any less liberal.

[Solon]

249. Oh, this was months ago, and unrelated to the current discussion...

Besides that, anyone can misrepresent themselves here. That's a given, and I do wonder if this poster, uhm, "switched" as it were. Trust has to be earned and I trust readmoreoften a hell lot more than the OP, and not just because I agree with her.

[BlooInBloo]

252. Sigh. Because anybody disageeing with The Most Extreme Dramarama Possible...

is a gay-hating bigot.

C'mon. Did you really miss the memo?

[stevietheman]

273. I've been gay for 24 years, man.

Just because I don't use DU as a place to talk about gay issues means that I care about a lot of other issues as well, and usually even more.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

287. Really? Because you once posted you were 41 years old:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3345096&mesg_id=3356950

[LostinVA]

282. We said the same thing when we read it

There's a few more "caught the gays" in the thread, too.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

288. Check my post right above yours.

[LostinVA]

289. OH HO -- save this

[BlooInBloo]

251. You don't count, according to DUers.

EDIT: Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

[PeteytehMawnstar]

258. Good Job

I hate when people throw phrases like self-hating or internally homophobic at you just because you don't think exactly as they do on this issue or don't react the same way. It's just as hateful and spiteful as saying something anti gay. "You can't possibly be gay," is my favorite, I really fail to get it sometimes, but i'm more concerned about adoption or the status/indepth look at the lives of our fellow homosexual friends in places like Iran or even Russia. The levels of violence towards gays in these places is almost normalized. The type of uproar over prop 8 and warren should be directed at these issues, and frankly it isn't. IT SPEAKS VOLUMES

[cooolandrew]

259. I can comprehend prop 8 fully and sympathetically but Rick however folks cut it will on that >

day be there in the capacity of an American citizen enjoying his president's inaugaration. I want everyone to enjoy that day even if we disagree with them.

[Umbram]

263. You should know better than to speak up.

You are just going to have your sexuality questioned and be declared self loathing.

[stop the bleeding]

264. Error: you can only recommend threads started in the past 24 hrs

Good to see some intelligence is still around at this place

[AntiFascist]

266. I think Martin Luther King himself made some comment along the lines that...

silence will get us nowhere. Also, you seem to be one of those who doesn't understand the purpose of the Equal Protection Clause and the threat of tyranny of the majority. If you have time, please review some of the recent posts to my journal.

[stevietheman]

274. I fully understand these concepts

My position is that gays need to _get to work_ to democratically reverse Prop 8. Legal challenges such as the one by Jerry Brown are also useful, and I hope they will work.

However, wailing about it to no end doesn't really help us. We need to be grown-ups and work within the system as much as we can before giving up on it and going on near-rampages.

[AntiFascist]

276. I also think that people need to be better educated about the legal strategy...

The CA Marriage ruling ruled that gays and lesbians are a Suspect Classification, for the first time ever, and that marriage is a Fundamental Right. Put these two together and you have a very strong case that can stand up to the majority. This is all due to the brilliant work by Lambda Legal and others. This is precedent-setting in that it can also be cited in other states, as it was in Connecticut, and possibly used in future Federal cases.

We should definitely work on democratic efforts as well, in case Prop 8 is allowed to stand, but we shouldn't ignore our legal rights otherwise we may not make much progress in other states outside of California.

[deadlyaj]

269. gays will have it better under Obama than Bush.. dont hate, dance with the one who brought ya

[Zuiderelle]

271. Shut up you uppity gays, you never had it so good.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

280. Seriously -- in black and white

[kwenu]

275. I've decided to go into lurking status for the most part until this is over.

:shrug:

[bullwinkle428]

277. The last time I recall you taking this high a profile was during the McLurkin discussions...

just saying.

[LostinVA]

Yup

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

292. See #291. -nt

[Iggo]

278. But us straight people can still be pissed, right?

Or are you tired of that, too?

[LatteLibertine]

279. As far as Warren goes

I can't support a man who spreads intolerance, and bigotry and practices unjust discrimination.

We don't need programs to "cure" gay people from being homosexual, Mr. Warren. Gay folks are not the same thing as pedophiles and child molesters, either.

If Warren is tolerant why does he not let "unrepentant" gays join his church and why do they need to be "cured" of being homosexual?

I can't agree to disagree with this man. He isn't keeping bigoted feelings to himself, or merely voicing them. He is actively using them to spread misinformation and practice discrimination.

Warren is a very bad choice.

BTW I am a straight liberal male that is being true to his conscience.

I fully realize some people, both gay and straight, feel this is much ado about nothing, and I am not one of those people.

Obama is legitimizing Warren, and it's wrong.

[LostinVA]

284. Very, very nice post

[LaydeeBug]

283. Well, I'm NOT gay, and your apathy is astounding. nt

[OwnedByFerrets]

285. ...

"If we don't agree with the democratic result of Prop 8, then we need to work on a democratic repeal. Duh! Stop the whining and get to work!

If we don't agree with Rick Warren being at the inauguration, make the case, but also realize that Obama is trying to get the entire country behind him. Maybe we should teach others about our tolerance for a change, and maybe set an example?"

What is wrong with working on a democratic repeal of Warren? Would that repeal require one to STFU or work towards letting others know how pissed they are? How would BO ever know that people are pissed without the wonderful dissent I've seen lately?

[Politicub]

286. Ah, the battered spouse thread. It was only a matter of time

until some gay people started apologizing for being too concerned about Warren.

"It's ok, honey, we gays deserve this treatment. May I have another? It's not like we're in high school."

Fuck that and fuck Warren. Warren has enough people singing his praises. I don't think it hurts Obama one iota to have people let him know how much disappointment the inaugural prayer invitation has caused. And, it's my democratic right to protest.

And before someone replies with the non sequitur about me hating Obama, that isn't true at all. Obama is far better than anyone else we would have gotten from the GOP. But I am disappointed in this decision.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

291. If you're gay, I'm Ru Paul.