Everyone wants to know WHY we're all bickering here.

[Lyric]

Our government doesn't listen to us, we KNOW it, and that frustration leaks out here. We all know perfectly well that we can fire off as many angry e-mails and letters as we wish, and it won't make a bit of difference. Nobody LISTENS. At least not until we have something they want--namely, our votes.

Well that cow has already been milked. The campaign donations are given, and the prize is won. Now it's back to the old routine of the government ignoring what's best for US in order to pursue what's best for consolidating its own power. Rah-fucking-rah, go team.

We rant HERE, because at least HERE, people listen. Sometimes they're rude and obnoxious in reply, but at least they listen. I'd rather have some asshole tell me to "Settle the fuck down and grow up" than to have yet another oh-so-polite and coldly vague form letter from a distant leader who has NO idea of what me and people like me want and need, and doesn't particularly CARE to know, either.

And who can blame Obama for this? It's certainly not of HIS making. For all we know, he'd prefer to govern in a way that keeps him close to the pulse of the people. But that is not the way that the system is set up. Within the system we have, I am nothing more to Obama than a single added digit on an occasional poll. Neither are any of you.

It sucks to feel impotent, to feel helpless, to feel like the people who make the rules of the game aren't paying attention to the voices of the players. So we come here, we rant and rage and shake our fists, and we feel a little better for it. Isn't that what DU started as? A place where marginalized progressives could come and take solace in each others' company under the worst Presidency in history?

So please--stop trying to silence the raging debate. It's upsetting--absolutely. But it's needed. Without a place to vent and rage, where would any of us be?

In the meantime, I have a holiday wish that I'd like to share. I'm not wishing for instant gay rights, or for perfect gender equality right this minute, or economic justice with the snap of a finger. I wish for a government that LISTENS to us--and more often than just around election time. A government that really, truly cares. A government that doesn't back down from the fights that are WORTH fighting, no matter the political cost. A government that does not shy away from treating people like PEOPLE, and not like numbers. A government that is not afraid to take a stand for the sake of easing human suffering--whether the topic is civil rights, social justice, economic policy, or military policy.

Even more importantly, I selfishly wish that everyone here at DU was 100% supportive of gay rights, and stood firm behind the gay community as we struggle to call out insensitive and hurtful choices that are made in regard to our freedom, our equality, and our dignity. That goes for ALL civil rights issues--race, gender, sexual orientation, disability, even religion. I selfishly wish that I did not have to defend my right to feel pain when someone I admire sticks a dart into my heart, like Obama did with Warren.

So--let's argue. Let's debate. But in the end, let's be a family that LISTENS to each other. Maybe not always respectfully, but always with a feeling of solidarity. I know who's on MY team. Some of them are assholes, but they're still on my team, and I (asshole that I can be) am also on theirs. When push comes to shove, I know whose back I'm going to have.

Because that's what family IS.

[underpants]

1. I thought it was just warming up for the airing of grievances on Festivus

:shrug:

[LaurenG]

2. K and R

:hug:

[Danger Mouse]

3. That's just it. Nobody is listening to each other.

That's the problem. That's why the flame wars continue to rage.

[Lyric]

6. If we didn't listen, there would be nothing to flame over.

Not everyone is *agreeing* with each other, but they're definitely listening.

I would like more agreement, too--but about the right things. In the meantime, I will settle for solidarity.

[Danger Mouse]

7. It's more like...

'I'm listening to your stupid opinion and here's why it's stupid.'
We have listening, I guess, but no understanding.

[Lyric]

9. I'm not going to disagree with that, certainly.

But I also don't think that we are entirely to blame for it, either. As I said--people get frustrated and angry when Power fails to listen. It's not necessarily right or fair that the anger comes out here...but it IS understandable, at least.

[fadedrose]

18. When money talks somebody listens

Maybe it's time for those who contribute monthly to the DNC or other group where it's taken directly out of your bank account, to cancel the contribution with a comment as to why you're not happy.

For sure nobody in DU can ease your frustrations . . .

And if that doesn't help, at least you won't be paying for something "without representation."

[Danger Mouse]

26. I understand why, but it's not healthy or productive.

Right now, we're just tearing ourselves apart.

[uppityperson]

14. Some of us are reading and listening, and thinking and not commenting.

k&r for OP and some of us are listening and thinking and reading and all that. I have changed my opinion on the appropriateness of Warren talking, praying, etc. But, believe it or not, I have been not posting much.

[monmouth]

16. Wondereful post oktoberain. The best of holiday wishes to you and yours...n/t

[Deja Q]

4. Because, unlike sex, EVERYONE gets their hand in postured arguing.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

5. Amen.

[jonnyblitz]

8. sorry, but the homophobic jackasses who post here at DU are

NEVER going to be a part of any family I want anything to do with. They are all yours.

[Lyric]

10. I suspect that the homophobes here

are not going to be here much longer.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. not one in a hundred of those accused of being homophobes here

actually is, i'd wager. most simply have different priorities than gay marriage, at a time when the gay community's great issue is prop 8 and warren.

[Danger Mouse]

25. but who are the genuine homophobes?

granted, they are here, but who are they?

[Mojambo]

11. Best thread of the day. Rec. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

12. k & r

What a great post oktoberain. Beautiful writing!

[mmonk]

13. Nothing is achieved through silence.

DU is a recognition of this.

[Uncle Joe]

15. I believe our opinions do matter, but they're

as raindrops on rock.

With a nation of 300 million, it takes many voices and opinions for effect, but I believe eventually the rock will wear down to pebbles or sand and we'll have beach front property.

If it doesn't the rain will build to a flood and there will be what seems like sudden change, just as some people considered the 60s to have been, but in fact those forces of change were built up over time.

I believe we're approaching another transformational era but it won't happen until the new President takes office.

[Lyric]

17. I hope so.

As I said, I think we certainly have a better chance with Obama than with anyone else in recent history, but I wouldn't call it a guarantee yet.

[DevonRex]

19. Can I be really honest about this?

I really, really love genuine debate. I think we can be a strong force for change if we stick together. I think almost everyone here, with a VERY few exceptions, wants full civil rights for GLBTs immediately. I know I do.

What I have noticed is that a FEW people thinks that this means Obama is a homophobe and that if we don't say that, too, then WE must be homophobes, too. That has actually been said, right here on this board. Others have said that we must be closet homophobes, sexists, and all sorts of other horrible things, if we don't denouce Obama completely. If we dare to say that there just might be a method to his madness, we're ganged up on and told that we don't belong on this board.

You have not said that. Not at all. And I really appreciate your post. You have said a boatload of great things. I stand with you in support of full civil rights for GLBTs, including repeat of DOMA and DATT. For a long time I thought that civil unions were okay. I have changed my mind on that. Why should the union be called anything different just because it's a gay couple?

I don't donate to the Salvation Army anymore because of their stance on gay employees. I even stopped going to the church I had occasionally attended because their official stand on gay marriage is wrong. The reason I went there in the first place was because of all the Habitat houses they build. But I can't donate to them if they are against gay marriage.

And all I have to ask is why is it that somebody like me, who believes and LIVES as I do, can be told I don't belong here simply because I'm not willing to throw Obama under the bus for this?

[nomorenomore08]

20. It's guilt by association, really.

If you're defending Obama, in this context, then no doubt it'll seem to some like you're defending Warren. Which no progressive should be doing, obviously, because Warren's an authoritarian nutjob.

People on here don't know each other personally, with a few exceptions, so all they have to judge you on is a few lines of text. And so if they detect something objectionable in the tone or content of your posts, then they probably won't form the best impression of you as a person. It's not fair, and it's frustrating, but that's just the nature of an anonymous message board like this one.

[Lyric]

21. The first part of what I said is relevant here.

In essence, that we throw a lot of the muck at each other that we REALLY wish we could be throwing at the government (and even Obama himself)...except that neither the government nor Obama would notice or care. Other DU'ers DO notice, and DO care. It's the feedback that people are looking for--the validation. That's one major reason why we're fighting.

As for being willing to throw Obama "under the bus"--I think that in order to judge it fairly, you must consider that there is also an equally-vocal and equally-abrasive small portion of DU that literally defends him (and other not-so-friendly-to-gays politicians) no matter what he says or does. That makes people angry, and that anger gets taken out on others who perhaps do not completely deserve it. Then THEY get angry and resentful, and the cycle continues.

One thing you might consider is this: we gay people are hurting very, very, VERY badly right now. It's hard for others to really understand it, but it's true. When feelings and hearts are raw and bleeding, even the slightest bit of non-support can feel like a knife-cut, and provoke a slashing response. That's not to say that *every* angry comment from a gay person--or even most--was undeserved. Believe me, there are plenty of people around here who need their heads knocked together when it comes to gay rights. But anyway--I think people would be less angry and hurt with other DU'ers if we felt like other people were as angry with *him* as we are. It hasn't felt like that at all, so that stings. A lot.

It's hard to keep from stepping on toes when toes are swollen all over the place.

[DevonRex]

22. I understand the need to strike out. I just don't understand the need

to strike out at people who SUPPORT full civil rights for GLBTs. As far as supporting anything Obama does, I'm in the category of wait and see WHAT he does to address the very real problems affecting the GLBT community. If he doesn't perform as I think he will, I will be angry. I don't believe that the selection of that idiot to give the invocation in any way signals what he plans to do in office. That is only my opinion. If Obama proves me wrong, I'll be angry as I said before.

In the meantime, I have done what I could to voice my opinion. My recommendation at change.gov is that if Obama doesn't rescind the invitation to Warren, he should make one hell of a speech in support of full rights for GLBTs and immediately follow it up with action. I don't know if that will happen. I hope it does.

[Danger Mouse]

27. Maybe some people should step away from the keyboard then...

and find a good outlet for their anger that doesn't involve lashing out at other people.

[izzybeans]

31. There are some here just to egg this on.

There is one prominent former member of my ignore list who just dusted off an old sock puppet to start calling everyone a homophobe. I'm frankly surprised that the person is still here after all the racist garbage this person pulled in the primaries. The person telling you that you don't belong probably doesn't belong here themselves.

Most everyone on either side of this issue are well meaning. But then there are those that demand everyone listen and do not demand the same from themselves. You probably ran into a couple of people like that. Then again you probably ran into my little ignore list friend. The odds are probably fairly even on that one.

[CitizenPatriot]

24. aw, man..you made me cry.

Thanks for the post.

I've been reading on and off the last two days...and doing a lot of listening and thinking. I hear a lot of pain...which makes me so sad. I wish things weren't like this. Most of us have been hit at some time in our life with enough bigotry to have compassion. I can only imagine after Prop 8 and then the UN debacle how this feels. What a horrid last few months we've had on that front.

I don't disagree with the feelings at all. Yes, even as my uterus is being hunted down for service to the fundy's army, I'm still seeing this Warren thing as a strategy and one that might just work. Does that make me a non-supporter? I hope not. I hope it doesn't negate the work I've done for gay rights, etc. Sure, you don't know me, and if I spent time trying to "prove" myself on a message baord, I'd feel kind of weird about that. But...I have a long history of working for all civil rights. That is never the same, however, as when it is YOUR rights being taken away.

So, today, I remembered vividly how desperately upset I was over a domestic violence murder case where the man walked...and it seemed like no one gave a shit. I realized that this must feel like that. As if no one cares about the LIVES of a certain group of people. I don't want to add to that feeling on behalf of the gay community. Today, there was a thread where about a woman who got beaten by her husband and everyone was cracking wise because the situation was funny, I guess, but it was also so sad. I had hoped to read at least one other person who noticed the woman's pain. So, you are right, sometimes the most important thing we can do for one another is listen without trying to change anyone's mind. To know that others stand with you when you are down - have been kicked-- is so important. And if I had to see someone who helped that man go free at the inauguration of a man I helped elect, my heart would break a little. Even if I could see the plan, and knew he was working for me...I would still be heart-broken and angry at the seeming "legitimization" of the criminal.

So...I'm listening.... We will have much to celebrate when you have the rights you deserve. I am still holding out hope re Prop 8 being found to violate the CA constitution.

Edited to add: Do I need to say that Warren stands for things that make my skin crawl? I hope that's a given...My outrage at this point is at the fucking process of change. If I could, I'd change things right now for you.

((((hugs))))

[Laelth]

28. Well said. k&r n/t

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Starry Messenger]

29. kick.

[bluedawg12]

30. The salt in the wound are the threads telling us not to post about civil rights

if it doesn't interest someone, then, they should post about their issue and stop telling us that we should not post about the issue we care about deeply.