"Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political...

[JVS]

opponents are not welcome here."

Just a friendly reminder.

I strongly disapprove of the of the selection of Rick Warren to do his opening prayer thing. I believe the selection fails to take account of his polarizing views and his active promotion of causes antithetical to both Democratic and American values. This is a bad decision on Obama's part, and I have criticized other bad decisions before. I understand that for some this is a painful and confidence shaking turn of events.

However, I have seen a lot of denunciation of both Obama and the party in general in the last few days, and in my opinion it has gone way past the point which should have to be tolerated by the readers of DU. When you claim that you should have voted 3rd party or label people who remain strong in their support of our President elect as apologists, you are carrying water for the republicans. There are many who seek to undermine our president-elect and our party, and even if unintended, to allow oneself to become a generator of bile against the party and its leader helps them tremendously.

[rug]

1. This is a pale parody of democratic centralism.

[Captain Hilts]

7. People here don't know what 'democratic centralism' is, and I agree with you because I do!

[FrenchieCat]

2. You've got it right.

Albeit, this controversy relates to a personal issue, Gay marriage, and so I understand the passion involved. But still, folks can't just start calling other DUers ugly names and feel justified because they are upset. In name calling other members of this forum, to some degree, they are no better than those who they are taking issue with in the first place.

[kstewart33]

3. People who curse those they disagree with are no better

than the Freepers on Free Republic. The behavior is identical.

[AllentownJake]

4. The name calling is going both way

and that is why the rhetoric continues to rise.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Actually, I think it is easing a bit.

I think that there is common understanding being reached.....

I am reading that many DUers are in agreement that the Warren pick was not a good one. Some believe that it is an affront that cannot stand, while others believe that it is a mistake that shouldn't have happened....but there are very few, if any, who are actually liking Warren at all. The varying degrees of passion as to how wrong the selection appears to be the sticking point, from what I can detect. Sure it runs the gambit, but still, most seem in general agreement that the selection of warren was a lousy one, regardless of the intent.

[Kber]

24. FrenchieCat

I think this is one of the most intelligent things posted on the subject to date and I hadn't thought of it exactly that way before. It's not that we disagree, it's the level of passion.

Thank you.

[CTyankee]

26. A strong part of this debate is the "insensitivity" charge, that if you are not with us

you are against us. I don't see anyone on this board liking anything Warren has to say. But there are those who say it is not OK no matter what good Obama may think will come out of it.

[JVS]

8. Oh, so that makes it ok for you to start an OP by referring to "Obama worshippers"?

It's flamebait, and you should know better.

[AllentownJake]

10. Seeing that I spent more time

working for this candidate than I did my own job this year. I think I can say there are people who worship Obama and people who support him and yes there are people on this board that do not like him one bit and never have.

I'm sorry, I was had. I should have went with my head and not my heart in the primary because at least than my heart would not have been broken when I got Bill Clinton's third term.

[JVS]

11. Please stop carrying the water of the opponents of the party.

[AllentownJake]

13. Yes I'm now the enemy

I was wondering how long it would take before that accusation was thrown.

You know how I know this because I have seen this before on this board and shamefully during FISA over the summer I participated in it and I saw it constantly done to Clinton supporters months after the primary for any dissent to the Great Leader.

[JVS]

Who you support with word and deed is who you support.

It is your decision to be the enemy or not.

[AllentownJake]

29. Thanks for the lecture comrade

You read my post so you obviously also know that I'm also holding an Obama event today for my Mother's work on Healthcare. I will be biting my toungue in public for that event because it serves no interest to fight that battle during a battle for health care.

Just because the luster has worn off and my choices of what I get involved with in regards to this particular politian so I don't get my heartbroken again I guess that makes me the enemy.

[glowing]

6. I think many are allowing others a sounding bored for the total dissapointment,

anger, frustration, and let down. Its like the hits keep coming for our GLBT brothers and sisters. Let people move through their grieving... because this is what it is. The feeling of hope has died with some. Let them grieve.

[JVS]

9. There is a difference between grieving and griefing.

[AllentownJake]

12. and there is a difference between having some empathy

and stirring the pot by trying to shame people into your opinion.

[JVS]

14. Yeah, stick with empathy and drop the pot stirring and trying to shame everyone into your position.

[AllentownJake]

15. I hope Barack does something intelligent in the next month so I can go back to liking you guys.

That was stirring the pot.

[glowing]

30. Its early and I'm typing at a job. you know what I mean and its exactly

what is going on. Look at the stages of grief... that's what is going on.

[Solon]

16. Does it count if the attacks echo the attacks homophobes use against homosexuals as well...

are they also political opponents, or do they not count?

[AllentownJake]

17. The only thing that counts are the insults thrown against those that are angry right now

The other insuls are to help bring about civility to the board and return us to our previous state where we odled pictures of Obama getting of planes.

[Solon]

18. I ignore such threads as being useless as is...

I frankly don't understand it. My primary point is that neither side is completely innocent here, there have been rash words, on both sides, but I'll be damned if I'll let anyone ignore that fact.

ON EDIT: I will clarify some points, I'm generally talking about personal attacks, which I'm guilty of myself, I frankly consider criticism of Obama or the Democratic party in general to be completely valid, and there's very little overreaction on my part there.

[AllentownJake]

19. Well prepared to be called an enemy of the party comrade

because I made the same point. Some on here want peace, but they want peace with the awknowledgement that us wanting civil rights are being silly and foolish and every other problem in this country is more important.

[Solon]

21. Heh, look at my other post, number 20...

I really don't have a political party to call home, and I say this as a straight guy. I'm not exaggerating when I say that.

[AllentownJake]

28. I'm saying it as a straight guy as well

Because first Warren is coming for the gays because they are the easist targets.

Next targets are the women, than you go after the Pinko Traitors like us.

[Solon]

20. Is this something that applies to all parts of the Democratic party, or just the national party?

I ask because the Missouri Democratic party IS my political opponent, for being lead by homophobic dipshits like Jay Nixon, our new Governor, who, as Attorney General, wrote a letter asking the California Supreme Court to overturn its decision on Same Sex Marriage. First things first, it was none of his damn business, second, he supported our own state's Constitutional Amendment banning Same Sex Marriage, and third because he's an asshole.

Now, is it fair for me to denounce these actions, or does partisanship override human decency?

[JVS]

23. That would be a question for the admins who make the rules. I'm just pointing them out.

Of course, if it is your intention to make "Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our politica opponents" there are probably beter venues for it than Democratic Underground.

[AllentownJake]

35. So when is the great purge comrade?

You realize post like yours just make me angrier and even more strident right now probably doing the same to others.

I'm sorry there aren't as many picture threads or cheerleading threads the past three days.

[QC]

40. Tovarish, first come show trial, then great purge.

[sniffa]

41. Hopefully soon

Go ahead, get angry.

[AllentownJake]

44. Yep I'm a traitor who never supported Obama

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. If you're going to DENOUNCE correctly

You have to repeat as follows:

BIGOT!
BIGOT!
BIGOT!
WORSHIPPER!
APOLOGIST!
BIGOT!
APOLOGIST!
WORSHIPPER!
BIGOT!
BIGOT!
APOLOGIST!

[Blarch]

25. And ...

The gay community is hurting it's cause, I have been called a homophobe many times.

[AllentownJake]

37. So you don't support equal rights because someone who is upset

over a shitty decision called you a name :shrug:

I'm not gay but the crowd who are saying Obama can do know wrong is driving me further and further away at the same time. Looks like Obama has succesfully started to divide the party before even taking office. Heck of a job Ricky.

[sniffa]

42. Just go ahead an go then

No need to be driven there comrade.

[AllentownJake]

45. Well I guess you can make the phone calls in 2012

Wonder what the enthusiasm is for re-election amongst the moderate crowd when the message isn't hope and change.

[mondo joe]

27. Have our opponents been criticizing Obama for kissing the ass of the religious right?

Or for being only tepid on equal civil rights?

Because I didn't mean to echo them.

[AllentownJake]

31. YOUR an Enemy of the PARTY!

Now off to the gulag with you.

[Bluenorthwest]

32. From the Rules:

"Do not accuse entire groups of people on Democratic Underground of being conservative disruptors, or post messages which spread this type of suspicion."

Ah 'tis as hard to live up as it it to talk down....

[lostnotforgotten]

34. Identifying A Group Or Individuals As Bigots Is Not The Same As

A conservative disruptor.

[lostnotforgotten]

33. I Guess You Have Forgotten The Civil Rights For Which the Democratic Party

Fought so hard.

How can eliminating Racism, Discrimination, and Bigotry be going to far?

[Pale Blue Dot]

36. It is up to the moderators and administrators to decide which posts constitute

"Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents", NOT you or any of the other extremely vocal members who keep trying to stifle debate.

[AllentownJake]

38. Shh don't interupt their purge fantasies

[sniffa]

43. Just thinking of the coming purge is making me horny, comrade.

Will it be as awesome as the Great Hillbot Purge of 2008?

[AllentownJake]

46. Yeah I'm thinking now I was on the wrong side of that one

[JVS]

47. So calling people Obama apologists is now part of debate? Sorry, not buying

Debate centers around issues. To merely attack the party and Obama as the enemies of human rights is not debate. It is slander. Like I said in the OP, Obama's decision was a poor decision, this does not make extremely divisive and inflamatory attacks against him right though.

[noamnety]

39. I'm confused about who is "carrying water for the republicans."

I thought it was the apologists for right wing fundie bullshit. Now I come to find out the people demanding respect for human rights are the water carriers.

Interesting.

[GeorgeGist]

48. Mr. Obama brought this on himself.

The buck stops there.

[Teaser]

49. Who cares? Let the fire burn itself out.

It always does. Pissing on it never helps.

Just let people get mad, it helps them and in the end, helps everyone else.

[LWolf]

50. A couple of points:

<snip>

2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

Obama is no longer a candidate. The election is over. Nobody is required to support his agenda or his actions, when they don't support "progressive ideals."

Please note that members are not required to be generally supportive of "centrist ideals," "corporatist ideals," "christian ideals," "republican ideals," and many of the other ideals Obama holds.

<snip2>

Since then, DU has become one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards.

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

It's always an interesting dilemma when the party loyalty requirement comes into conflict with the "left-wing" and "progressive" parts of DU identity. As it must, because the party as a whole is neither left-wing nor progressive, except in dlc "progressive policy institute" terms. The cognitive dissonance is blatant.

I think it's clear, though, that DU is NOT "obamaunderground" or "democraticparty underground," or "partisan underground." If it were, it wouldn't be "left-wing."

Criticizing Democrats, including the PE, when they do a better job representing the right, and republicans, than the left-wing this board is supposed to identify with, is not "highly inflammatory" or "divisive."

Obama is not longer a candidate. He's fair game.

Personally, I think using the board to try to bully the left into silence is pretty divisive, myself.

[CakeGrrl]

51. Today I saw Obama accused of going on his vacation to "hide"

from facing up the Warren fallout.

That's not fair game; that's a low blow I'd expect to see from the wingnut bloggers who comment on NYT or WaPo or on Free Republic.

It's not based on fact, nor is it the basis of constructive discussion. The OP makes a valid point.

It's one thing to say (albeit ad nauseum) that one thinks the Warren choice was a poor one; it's another to use that as an excuse to tell the world again why one never really liked Obama.

[LWolf]

52. I think that's just stupid, myself.

I don't think there is enough weight behind it for it to be a true "low blow."

I've been telling the world that I didn't like Obama's politics since '04, actually. I don't need an "excuse."

I'll take this opportunity to point out the obvious, in case you missed it:

It's not personal. It's political.

I don't like his politics. I don't like his policy positions. I don't like much of his rhetoric. I don't like his appointments.

Since he is a politician, and now the PE, he is fair game. The only point of politics, for me, is issues. He is not friendly towards the issues, and the actions, that I support. In a rational world, people should EXPECT those who are opposed to a leader's agenda to say so.

I don't dislike the man himself. I don't wish him ill. Since I'm stuck with him for at least 4 years, I will apply myself to the job of making myself "heard," since he said he would listen to those that disagree. My efforts so far have been abysmal failures. The congratulatory letter I sent to him, along with a book, on election day, was returned. Not just the book, but the letter too, with a form letter from an aide explaining that he doesn't take "gifts." Not that the book was a "gift;" it was a well-documented policy position. I'm now cutting up the book to send him small sections at a time. Do you think he's "listening?"

His appointments clearly indicate that the other phone calls and letters went unheard.

The obvious response, when one is conveniently "unheard," is to get louder. And I'm doing that. I don't need an "excuse." Just about everything he does is an opportunity.

Taking a holiday break is not one of those opportunities. There are plenty of substantive criticisms. I don't need excuses for empty complaints.