What Obama showed me, throughout the elections.....

[FrenchieCat]

As some will admit, oftentimes Obama was treated as less than...

But what Obama showed me; when he was questioned about his "citizenship"; when he was was questioned about his lack of a flag pin, and his choice of preacher (Rev. Wright).

When he was called an elite, effete, and too Black and than not Black enough.

When he was caricatured on a waffle box, hung in effigy, called the Antichrist, made into a monkey shirt and a monkey doll, as well as called a Communist, a Socialist, a Marxist.

When threats are made on his life, and racist websites and magazines have his photo in a bullseye.

When even his beloved wife's picture was morphed into a monkey, called unpatriotic, un-american, and lied on about what she didn't say (there's a non existent tape somewhere).

when he reached out to Joe Lieberman (who betrayed him), Hillary Clinton (made her SOS although she said he wasn't ready to lead) and even to John McCain and Palin (who incited crowds to near violence against him....

When through it all, at no point did he lash out or lose his temper or even attempted retribution.

When he did not react to those who clearly lashed out at him which was the constant source of our panic here at DU. We were worried and disappointed because we wanted to see him get more incensed; go for the jugular; kick ass bigtime......

But what Obama showed me is that he's leading by example,
even if many don't want to acknowledge it...yet

What Obama showed me is that he epitomizes tolerance.

That's the conflict here today, in fact.
Some find him to be too tolerant.
They'd rather see him be less so.

[cali]

1. He is not leading by example with Warren. No matter how you try and justify it.

He's lending the legitimacy of the Presidency to a vile hate monger. And excusing that is pretty fucking sad.

[FrenchieCat]

2. I didn't find an excuse in my OP.....you did.

You'd rather he not tolerate the vile hate monger to the point of
believing that he could or should invite him to do the invocation.

That's my point.

[Solon]

12. You are the one lauding him for being "tolerant"...

Look, he can be as tolerant as he wants with people who didn't like him personally, but a line has to be drawn to bigots who dehumanize GLBT people.

[FrenchieCat]

21. Perhaps so....a line has to be drawn to bigots......

perhaps so.

and yes, I find tolerance to be virtuous.

You don't have to agree.

You can find intolerance to be a better virtue, if you wish.

Ain't nothing wrong with that.

[Solon]

23. Tolerance of those who dehumanize others, especially over an inborn trait, isn't virtuous, but...

rather a vice. And I view all those who are "tolerant" of such people to be rather hypocritical, because usually they are the people who stay on the sidelines while others fight for their rights. Some of the worst evils in this world were allowed to be perpetuated because good people did nothing to stop them.

[FrenchieCat]

27. Dehumanizing one takes on many forms......

especially over an inborn trait.

I disagree in terms of who one tolerates.

I have known of Gay people who have told me stories about their parents not accepting them...
and how they still went around them...
and how they tolerated them...
and tried to work on them,
in hopes that they would one day be accepted.

My Mother had the same problem when she married a Black man in 1955.
Her father didn't want to have anything to do with her.
But she kept coming around in hopes that he would see the light of day.
She tolerated him when he told her how could she do this?
Eventually he came around.
She never regretted having tried, even though she realized that he was a racist bigot.

[Solon]

29. You are talking about personal tolerance, I'm talking about societal tolerance...

Obama is President-Elect, for Christ's sake! He can set the tone for the nation, not as an individual, he doesn't have that luxury anymore. Don't you understand that, you are talking about personal tolerance, do you honestly think Warren will have a change of heart and accept gay people for who they are and talk about it because he willingly associates with Obama? Don't be so naive.

[FrenchieCat]

30. Obama's tolerance has been public and played out in front of the nation.

But how you technically separate those who tolerate being dehumanized privately,
and one who is willing to tolerate a known bigot publicly is convenient.
it's all personal....
that's why emotions are running so high....so don't you naive me.

I don't really care what Warren does.
but I do care about some of the millions
that respect Warren (and they are not all die hard bigots)
and due to his participation will have a listen to Barack Obama.

You don't know what Obama will say in his 45 minute speech.
You are only concerned with the 2 minute invocation,
that no one will remember....except for now,
since it is being made into the main event.

[Solon]

32. Most of those people aren't interested in what Obama has to say...

and even if they were, I don't think they will have any change of heart unless they STOP listening to Warren and only focus on Obama afterward. I don't see what you are proposing as being a reasonable outcome of this Inauguration.

[FrenchieCat]

36. You don't get to make the rules.

You don't get to decide that out of millions,
all will do what you have determined.

Because if that is the case,
you are saying that proposition 8 will always pass.
that there are no minds out there to be changed.

Obama won nearly 70 million votes.
Don't tell me that it is impossible
for him to win 5 million more.
Many of which have never really listened to what Obama had to say.

[elkston]

3. Why are you turning on us, Cali? Please come back to the fold. (eom)

[FrenchieCat]

5. Cali is fine!

She's her own person, and a damn good one at that!

[cali]

8. Thank you FC

and right back at you. We may disagree on some things, but we both really want to see President Obama succeed.

[FrenchieCat]

18. I know.

Because our success in large part depends on his success, and vice versa.

[cali]

6. I'm not turning on anyone. And I'm not turning on Obama

I still support him. I'm just not supporting him on the Warren thing. And yes, I'm disappointed that he made this move.

[ruggerson]

49. good grief

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. The problem is that tolerance is itself bullshit

The worst thing that ever happened to the Left was its embrace of a soft discourse of tolerance. It is self-contradictory and produces precisely the kind of effective counter-arguments that the right has been using for years. It's a stupid discourse, and one we are well to be rid of.

[FrenchieCat]

7. As I said, the source of conflict is that some find him to be too tolerant.....

to a fault.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. I'm not talkin g about any one person being "too tolerant" or "not tolerant enough"

I'm saying that the very concept of tolerance as it is deployed in the public discourse is bankrupt and incoherent.

[FrenchieCat]

14. I hear you.

And that was examplified....that we weren't interested in it.

As I noted in my op, throughout the election, we weren't interested in it.
We want to see Obama fight back hard, attack back and kick major bootey.

I know, because I argued about it with quite a few.

and most were always shocked when they saw that his it consistenly worked out at the end.


Remember this...while many of us fretted, day after day?

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. I didn't fret for one second

I basically called the election correctly in July, and never worried a day after that. The primaries were hard fought because this was essentially like a Democratic primary for mayor of Baltimore. That was the real election. But I'm not talking about political strategy. I'm talking about a whole system of thought that has developed in this country (and globally) around a weak notion of "tolerance."

[FrenchieCat]

28. Well perhaps you didn't fret......

but still, there was a lot of fretting going on.

[crappyjazz]

10. I thought his example of the cool and collected was amazing

Being tolerant and reaching out rather than lashing out is a better choice, I agree.

Reaching out does not have to include providing a public platform and place of honour to bigots and hate mongerers. That is more than reaching out, that is elevating. It is more than objectionable or distasteful to me. It is a slap in the face, a stab in the back and I will not be fooled again.

[FrenchieCat]

15. Yeah...I've been reading your posts.

You were slapped in the face.
The entire community was slapped in the face.

I read you loud and clearly.

[rug]

11. Apparently his tolerance stops at gay marriage.

[Solon]

13. But he has Religious reasons, so that's acceptable.

:eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

17. But he didn't try to hide that from you, now did he?

Did you vote for him anyways, or did you vote for the candidate who supported Gay Marriage?

[Solon]

20. I supported Kucinich in the Primary, one reason was his support for Marriage Equality...

I supported and voted for Obama because in this country, you have a choice between the lesser of two evils, ultimately. Just because I accept political reality doesn't mean I have to like it, nor like Obama on his objectionable stances.

[FrenchieCat]

24. I fully understand that.

for you, Obama was the lesser of two evils.

Even before the Warren selection....as I recall.

[Solon]

25. Yes, even before the Warren selection...

Part of the reason why I'm pissed off now is because, for a minute there, around election time, I thought Obama was perhaps different, it was his victory speech. Damn, I hate being proven wrong, and before he's even inaugurated! It was my mistake, ultimately, I should never have let myself feel weakness like that again. You should never trust politicians, always been my motto before, and it is again.

But again, I blame myself more than Obama, he can't change who he is as a career politician, after all.

[FrenchieCat]

16. Well, I think that getting elected was part of the plan.....

But you knew that.

[rug]

19. He was elected six weeks before he invited Warren.....

but you knew that.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Meaning?

He didn't support Gay Marriage before the election.
and I'm just saying that you knew that.

That was my response to you announcing that he is not tolerant enough to support Gay Marriage.

I said that he didn't try to hide that from you.....so there was no betrayal there.

[WeDidIt]

31. Not buying it, Frenchie

He's nothing more than a cynical politician who pulled a cynical political ploy.

The more things "Change", the more they stay the same.

[FrenchieCat]

33. I'm not selling......

I'm just sharing.

I understand that his time is up with you.
You've made that clear in multiple posts.

[WeDidIt]

35. From where I sit, you're selling

no less cynical than the cynical politican you're attempting to sell.

[FrenchieCat]

38. Well, since you ain't buying,

you should move on....

[WeDidIt]

41. I'll just sit down over there and shut up.

:eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

39. When I have an opinion to share on these boards, I'm selling....so you insist.

When you have an opinion to share on these boards, what are you doing?

the difference is that I'm not going to tell you what you are doing,
because that is not my job.

I am not here to put you down, to cheapen you, to try to shame you,
or none of that.

[WeDidIt]

42. Every body is selling something

I'm selling the idea that every human being deserves basic human rights.

You're selling a cynical politician.

Read my signature.

[WonderGrunion]

55. Is the right to be heard a basic human right?

Free speech?

You're saying that Rick warren has no right to be heard, no right to speak because you and he disagree over your right to marry who you love. You are not advocating for equal rights for him because he does not advocate for equal rights for you.

Exactly which person's position is cynical?

[mucifer]

34. Reminds me of the quote from many critics of Harold Washington, Chicago's

first black mayor a brilliant politician. Many from the African American community said that Harold was "too fair". This had to do with not appointing everyone from his point of view and not giving favors only to African Americans the way the democratic machine politics had given favor only to white well connected people and a few token minority yes men.

I think Obama has learned a lot from Harold Washington.

[Solon]

37. That is a really offensive comparison, and if you don't know why, there is no hope for you. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

40. I'd love to hear your take......

[Solon]

45. OK, here's my point of view...

The Mayor decided to treat people equally regardless of race, an innate trait, to do otherwise would have been discriminatory after all, and wrong.

The President decided to give this man a great honor, regardless of his bigoted views. Now, the question is, would actually taking this man's views, and using them to prevent him from receiving this great honor be discriminatory on the same level as discriminating against someone based on their race?

Of course not, it would be a silly to argue that it is, so why make the comparison at all?

[glowing]

43. I understand listening and having tolerance for those unfortunate people

who have been bamboozled into hate and intolerance.. and trying to bring them into the light. However, our govt is defined by a set of principles. AND its not ok to continue the charade of thinking its tolerable to hate or to allow inequality for citizens. Its not a viewpoint to be discriminating. Too many people are allowed to be bigots because the discourse regarding rights for gay people is still a viewpoint. It is not. You can no more change the color of your skin than to shed being gay. Now, if your religion decides its a sin, so what? Last time I checked living with someone without being wed is a sin, sex before marriage, children out of wedlock, eating certain foods, working on the Sabbath.. all of these things are sins. However, our laws do not dictate people's lives on these Christian Religious ideals.

Take a perspective of mine from childhood. I was raised as a Christian. They said don't have sex outside of marriage.. Surprise, surprise when I did the math and found out my mom was knocked up with me before marrying my father.. 30yrs later, it doesn't matter. I was taught that to live with a person before marrying was also wrong. Imagine my innocent question when the two mommies of my friend was suspected to have "married" in a private ceremony (it wasn't valid at that point.. laws and such)... Anyway, imagine my innocent question of "isn't it a sin to live with a person and NOT be married." Imagine that reversal. In all reality, I had a friend with two mommies. They were nice, went to soccer games, had us over for birthday parties, and participated in all small town VT functions. AND of course during that time of my young life, teachers had to teach us to be tolerant, that there are different families, and that its ok that my friend had two mommies... could you imagine the backlash and lawsuits if teachers allowed or taught that her parents were wrong and its ok to be mean to my friend. Anyway, I was taught that families are all sorts of things. Some kids have two mommies or two daddies or an auntie or a grandparent or are adopted. AND neither her or her brother caught teh gay. But my innocent question of why they were living in sin.. being NOT married made a few people stop and think.. Of course, finally, I was brushed away and stop listening and children seen, not heard and adult issues. Adults are dumb asses and cant see their own hypocrisy at times that is easy enough to be pointed out by a child. Also, ever notice children don't seem to see color or handicaps, they just see a play buddy.. it takes an adult to point out a difference and that the difference is somehow bad or that because of the difference you can treat your friend differently.

[BeyondGeography]

44. Barack can be periodically tone deaf toward gays

and I'm not surprised how upset many are at his choice of Warren.

Barack has also gone out on a limb to defend gays, most noticeably, for me at least, by criticizing homophobia in black churches from their own pulpits. I'm confident he will personally continue to defend and advance the cause of equal rights for all. Part of that process is putting a human face on all constituencies and building bridges to those who are dug in on the other side of progress, so some of the more reasonable among them can at least come to tolerate those whom they once dehumanized.

But, sometimes, inclusiveness isn't entirely realistic, and giving Warren, who is antediluvian when it comes to his views of homosexuality, a coveted opening spot at his inaugural is a head-scratcher. I wish Barack hadn't done that, but, at the end of the day, I see it as a blunder that he should be able to learn from. Based on what we've seen from him in the last two years, he won't take the criticism from our side personally and the better angels of his nature won't be shaken, much to the disappointment of those who share Warren's beliefs.

[ruggerson]

50. I agree with you

although one would think he'd learned his lesson with McClurkin.

What some forget here is that Obama himself wants us to push him on these issues. I think he's aware that he's tone deat at times, and he sees his relationship with the gay community as Lyndon Johnson's was to the civil rights movement; friendly and agreeable but not yet willing to go out on a limb until shoved there.

Events may force Obama to become the most pro active President the gay community has ever had.

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

46. so because bad and offensive things happened and were said about him during the election

it should be excused that he brings on a known homophobe and hateful pastor ????????

[grantcart]

47. I love his tolerance

You and I can put together a list of conservative pastors who don't support same sex marriage that would have been fine. I'll start Rev. Richard Cizik.


He also showed us that he wouldn't compromise with stupid, but that's what he did.


What this has really shown us is that Obama is rather undereducated in a little basic Theology and lets his personal affection for people color his evaluation of their ability to judge the quality of their theological discourse. Two for two is not good.

[ruggerson]

51. I've always had a problem with the word "tolerance"

it implies that there is something wrong with whatever is being tolerated.

I much prefer acceptance.

I'd like to see politicians and leaders start talking about how it is necessary to completely accept gay and lesbian Americans. Not "tolerate" them.

Just my own personal linguistic prejudice.

[Solon]

48. Well, does Obama have tolerance for Fred Phelps?

Why not invite him to do the Invocation instead, that would really show tolerance. :eyes:

[cooolandrew]

52. Just couldn't agree more.This is the change folks voted for to bridge the divide and work a new path

Folks say it's been done before I say no not like this, it's a whole new ball game and it's worth a shot.

[GeorgeGist]

53. You must have missed the Nashville debate ...

QUESTION: Senator (Obama), selling health care coverage in America as the marketable commodity has become a very profitable industry.

Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity?

OBAMA: Well, you know, as I travel around the country, this is one of the single most frequently asked issues that I get, is the issue of health care. It is breaking family budgets. I can't tell you how many people I meet who don't have health insurance.

If you've got health insurance, most of you have seen your premiums double over the last eight years. And your co-payments and deductibles have gone up 30 percent just in the last year alone. If you're a small business, it's a crushing burden.

So one of the things that I have said from the start of this campaign is that we have a moral commitment as well as an economic imperative to do something about the health care crisis that so many families are facing.

So here's what I would do. If you've got health care already, and probably the majority of you do, then you can keep your plan if you are satisfied with it. You can keep your choice of doctor. We're going to work with your employer to lower the cost of your premiums by up to $2,500 a year.

And we're going to do it by investing in prevention. We're going to do it by making sure that we use information technology so that medical records are actually on computers instead of you filling forms out in triplicate when you go to the hospital. That will reduce medical errors and reduce costs.

If you don't have health insurance, you're going to be able to buy the same kind of insurance that Senator McCain and I enjoy as federal employees. Because there's a huge pool, we can drop the costs. And nobody will be excluded for pre-existing conditions, which is a huge problem.

Now, Senator McCain has a different kind of approach. He says that he's going to give you a $5,000 tax credit. What he doesn't tell you is that he is going to tax your employer-based health care benefits for the first time ever.

So what one hand giveth, the other hand taketh away. He would also strip away the ability of states to provide some of the regulations on insurance companies to make sure you're not excluded for pre-existing conditions or your mammograms are covered or your maternity is covered. And that is fundamentally the wrong way to go.

In fact, just today business organizations like the United States Chamber of Commerce, which generally are pretty supportive of Republicans, said that this would lead to the unraveling of the employer-based health care system.

That, I don't think, is the kind of change that we need. We've got to have somebody who is fighting for patients and making sure that you get decent, affordable health care. And that's something that I'm committed to doing as president. http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2008c.html

[IsItJustMe]

54. I think Obama realizes a spiritual truth that is well know and that has been handed down throughout

the centuries.

That truth is, "When you hate the hate, you become the hate".

The transformative people in the history (i.e. MLK, Mahat Magandi, Nelson Mandele) all knew this healing truth and were able to use it for our betterment.

At first glance, I could see how people would think that this was a bad choice. But then again, nothing in life that is worth while can ever be judged at such a superficial level at first glance.

Regardless of the conventional wisdom here at DU, I am looking at the big picture and I can see the value of what Obama has done here.

[Clio the Leo]

56. I STILL dont like the word "tolerance"....

.... as "tolerance" means "to put up with." We need to LOVE and respect one another, not merely "put up with" each other. Semantics.

But yeah .... as usual Frenchie ...... you're spot on.