gay rights and the civil rights struggle of the 1960's HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON

[madmadmad]

for a while, i got angry when some of my friends- black and white- as well people on this board claimed that the struggle for equal rights by african-americans in the 1950's and 1960's, could in no way be compared to the struggle for gay rights today. two completely different things they said. apples and oranges, they said.

how could that be, i thought? we are both minorities struggling to achieve the same rights as the majority of americans, both through the legal courts and in the courts of public opinion. we both have a history of oppression and violence directed at us. we both have a history of it being acceptable for the mainstream to use slurs like nigger and faggot against us. religious types have used bible quotes to justify the unequal treatment of both our groups and attempts to appease both groups though "separate but equal" laws have been made. why are our struggles so different? i just couldn't understand the logic.

but now i do. i get it. the two struggles really *are* different. i understand- apples and oranges- i finally get it.

and you know why the two struggles are so different? in the 1960's, blacks had the support of non-blacks. whites marched alongside them in selma. they had politicians who would speak out for them, and take up their cause, and work to overcome backward attitudes of the southern states and get a bill of civils rights passed- regardless of the difficulties faced. they had a president like lyndon b. johnson, who while his private beliefs may have been otherwise, realized that discrimination was wrong, and signed that civil rights bill into law. we had masses of the public agreeing that unjust treatment of minorities was just plain wrong and rejoiced in his decision, as well as a media who worked to disseminate the view that discrimination was not ok, and would not be tolerated any longer. the blacks had a movement, with a powerful momentum behind it. the tides of history were turning, and couldn't be stopped, and everybody knew it,.

today's gay rights struggle? well, it couldn't be more different- we don't even have all our own poeple on board. we have gays that think it's ok to have discrimination preached against us in a public forum. we don't have armies of non-gays beside us; we have armies of non-gays saying that there are more important battles to be fought; that our time will come- just not right now. we have no powerful politicians crying out that separate is never equal and demanding justice, and enacting legistion to right the wrongs done to us. we have a public and a media that thinks it's still okay to make gay jokes, and openly dismiss our struggles in everyday conversation. we have no upswell of public sentiment carrying us to equality.

and most importantly, we have the man that will soon be the leader of our country, and a beacon of hope to the entire world, inviting a known bigot- a man who openly preaches hate against gays and lesbians- to share the same stage as him. inviting him to stand in front of millions on one of the most historic days our country has ever seen. a day that should be a symbol for the struggle of minorities everywhere, but instead is a day of defeat for gays and lesbians here at home. HONORING that man with his inclusion, and thus endorsing his belief system as if it were legitimate, and somehow worthy of debate.

we have a president elect who isn't swallowing his privately held beliefs like LBJ and doing the right thing by calling for equal rights for all, and damn the consequences; but rather saying that he supports the creation of "separate but equal" laws- a tactic ruled invalid by our legal system, as well as disproved by our history, and a system that if it were still in effect, would have most likely have prevented him from attaining the office he is about to be sworn into. a man who is saying "unity" his words, but saying his gay and lesbian supporters are not valued or respected or EQUAL, with his actions.

so i get it now- the two struggles really are different, and cannot be compared. gay rights and african-american civil rights: apples and oranges. and our nation is a sadder and more diminished place for the differences between the two.

[IndianaJones]

1. the on slot has just begun. nt.

[mondo joe]

7. ROFL.

:rofl:

[ruggerson]

12. I don't know how many people saw that

:)

[IndianaJones]

13. I still get people to righteously correct me once in a while. nt.

[woo me with science]

58. Hey, don't go casting asparagus

into that slot.

[LostinVA]

2. I think you should try to get this published as an Op/Ed -- seriously -- k&r

[last1standing]

3. You are so sadly correct. I see that more and more.

Even the 'progressive' forum of Democratic Underground harbors so many who just don't give a Damn whether we live or die. We're just an inconvenience to them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. It's because right wingers insist in bringing in religious interpretations into our laws

Our country has a separation of church and state which ought to be seriously heeded, but is not.

Instead of standing up against right wingers and their interpretations of the Bible, and telling them where to stick their religions (which right wingers are trying to turn into legislation for the rest of us to follow), we Dems just float along not fighting the right wingers.

Which is why I'm so angry at this Rick Warren thing.

[MadMaddie]

67. What's interesting

is that before the law was changed for blacks to vote and desegregation was made illegal those Rick Warren type preachers were using their bible to explain why blacks deserved desegrations and that blacks did not have the right to vote.

They the Neocons and other religions are using the same damn argument except with a different target group. If the law stands this starts a slippery slope for other groups in America (they just haven't figured it out yet).

Religion has no place in government decisions that's the bottom line. It is time to marginilize the Rick Warrens of all stripes in America and we have to push for the enforcement of Seperation of Church and State once and for all.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

101. Absolutely! Religion must be extricated from government once and for all nt

[ProSense]

5. Civil rights is

civil rights. Yet there are parallels in circumstances that are neither real or logical, and individual circumstances and experiences vary. Not everyone comes from the same place, which is why I suspect Reverend Wright was demonized. There are blacks who will say they have never experienced racism.

[polichick]

6. It took a long time for whites to stand openly alongside blacks in their struggle...

...and it's taken a long time for straights to stand by gays ~ but honestly, there are TONS of us straights out here standing beside you. I don't know a single person who isn't horrified by Obama's choice, including my 70+ Christian mother and her church-going friends.

As in every problem, there's also an opportunity ~ maybe Obama's horrific decision will energize enough people to really make a difference. :hug:

[madmadmad]

10. thank you polichick- i hope there is a silver lining.

and thank you for your support- i know that there are plenty of people behind us in our struggle. it's just some days it feels like the ones who don't support us outnumber the ones who do by a billion to one. and today, is FOR SURE one of those days.

[polichick]

15. A number of things are happening at once that could change the tide...

The Prop 8 fiasco, which I think a lot of straight people were shocked and upset over, the release of the movie MILK (there wasn't a dry eye in the theater when I saw it, gay or straight) ~ and now this. Strangely, it could be the boost we need!

[BlooInBloo]

8. Totally. Black folks had it so easy.

[madmadmad]

11. that's not what i meant, and i hope you know it.

i am well aware that their struggle was longer and more intense, and paved the way for our own. i'm not trying to diminish their struggle in any way, but rather celebrate it for what it was able to achieve, and hope that we can overcome as well.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

14. They know it

They just have to be contrary.

:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

16. Well since there's no similarity, I suppose I won't see ppl likening Obama shittacular choice

to bringing in a KKK guy?

Oh wait. Yes I will see that. In every thread.

You're just after the movie-dramarama of the Impossible Odds Of Being All Alone, The Sole Force Of Good In A Nation Of Evil That Hates The Few, The Lone Good People.


Though the dramarama is silly, it could actually work long-term, of course. Gawd knows it would certainly be nice for something good to come out of this silliness.

But until then, I guess the only thing I wonder is: can I have ur stuff?

[mondo joe]

17. Coretta Scott King:

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice. But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." "

"Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union," she said. "A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages."

But what the fuck did she know about the civil rights struggle anyway?

[lostnotforgotten]

74. Yes! - MLK Saw The Really Big Picture! - The Two Struggles Are Variations On A Theme

eom

[CreekDog]

77. and they were not considered people 150 years ago

i hate comparing miseries, but that one stands pretty damned high.

so your argument jumps to the end of their civil rights movement is pretty insensitive in that you are negating all the waiting and lack of support blacks went through.

i find your post offensive actually.

oh and if anyone wants to point out that i shouldn't be offended because i'm white, spare me.

[TankLV]

28. yeah - because we all know how easy gay people have it even now...

[Starry Messenger]

9. Rec.

Straight and standing with you. The last 72 hours here have been a real eye opener.

[ecstatic]

18. "we don't have armies of non-gays beside us"

This is just my opinion, of course... but...

The vast majority of DUers DO NOT LIKE Warren and think the choice sucks! We are disappointed that anti-war activists, pro-choice advocates, women, Jews, and the GLBT community might feel unease on a day that was supposed to be so joyous. Yet, I saw all kinds of posts over the past few days calling straight people all sorts of names and slurs. Breeders, assholes, homophobic--just about every name in the book. And these are people on DU! 99.99% of DUers are for gay marriage = on your side! So by calling DUers homophobic, does that mean there is no difference between us and Rick Warren? :shrug:

The point is, you alienate people that way. I don't agree with Obama's choice of "unity" on Inauguration day, but I understand that he told us all along that he would do things like that. I disagree with his move, but I don't automatically assume the worst about his intentions.

After the reaction of the prop 8 vote, many anti-gay marriage people began to see the error of their ways. Especially with the help of KO and his Special Comments regarding it. People are coming around! But now I'm seeing some posts implying that there will be physical confrontations on the day of Inauguration---in other words, part of the ceremony might be disrupted--possibly even during the prayer for Obama's success. I'd like to see how a gay marriage vote would turn out after something like that. Destroying Obama's big day would turn off so many people to the point where gay marriage bans could pass in all 50 states. People have the right to protest, but realistically I think it would delay real progress.

Flame away, put me on ignore, whatever... but this had to be said.

[Pale Blue Dot]

21. By representing the ENTIRE gay community this way,

by saying things like "So by calling DUers homophobic, does that mean there is no difference between us and Rick Warren?" when in fact VERY FEW are actually saying such things... well, I just think you need to take a break and do a little self-reflection.

[ecstatic]

I can only speak for what I've seen on DU. Every thread I see

has something of that nature in it. I suppose it could be a very loud vocal minority.

[Pale Blue Dot]

35. I repeat what I said.

Log out of DU, and do a little self-reflection.

[mondo joe]

26. Point of clarificaion please:

Are you saying "the prayer for Obama's success" is so important is could drive the nation?

[ecstatic]

30. No I'm saying most Americans are kind of religious and

view prayers as sacred. So that would be the wrong time for some shoes to fly across the stage, possibly hitting Obama and/or Warren mid verse. Warren doesn't deserve respect, but Obama does.

[madmadmad]

33. i would seriously doubt there would be any form of protest, actually.

we aren't a violent people, really.

[Pale Blue Dot]

19. We, as a people, don't fight for anything anymore.

We admire the black civil rights struggle of the 60's from a safe distance. We sit in our living rooms and bedrooms and type on our computers. We talk about how great it would be to have a movement like Dr. Martin Luther King's, but we never DO anything about it.

K&R.

[phleshdef]

20. From the middle passages to complete civil rights, black people have had the largest ladder to climb

as far as a category of American citizens are concerned...and before anyone asks, I'm a white person that grew up in southern WVa.

I understand that homosexuals have definately not being given an even shake and there have certainly been atrocious hate crimes committed towards homosexuals. Gay people HAVE HAD and continue to have to struggle to be treated with the same dignity as anyone else and have the same rights and same protections. But race based persecution runs deeper... not even in our history but in those of many other nations as well. I don't see how anyone can't see the difference of magnitude.

[mondo joe]

22. And for how many years do you believe gays have been oppressed?

Hm?

[ProSense]

25. How many?

That's the problem when these discussions arise. People are always trying to pit their struggle against some other groups.

If that's the case: How long have did blacks have to hide the fact that they were black in order to live in peace and enjoy the same rights as other?

[Karenina]

71. Passing as white continues to this day.

[phleshdef]

42. The point was missed. We are talking MAGNITUDE.

[mondo joe]

44. Whose point was missed? Whose issues are you minimizing?

[phleshdef]

50. I'm not the one doing the minimizing.

[mondo joe]

51. Links please. And be specific. NT

[treestar]

23. Completely wrong

It is in fact very similar. There is great support from straights. But as to the majority, it has to be worked for, that is just human history. If we were perfect, it would be better. But we are not.

MLK did not take his marbles and go home, condemning all whites as bigots. He fought. It was not easy. He even died, himself.

And that is reality and human history.

Women had to fight to get the vote. They had to fight like hell to get any semblance of equality.

You have to fight. That means being smart about it. That means not having presidents like McCrypt or Palin. Taking your allies, the Democrats, though they are less than perfect.

Reality. It makes life much easier to recognize it.

[Zynx]

24. I think timeline-wise we are talking closer to the 1930s than the 1960s here.

[IsItJustMe]

27. One major difference. MLK and his movement of non violent protest. It's always people like MLK

that make positive change come about in our world. They are transcendent people with vision and wisdom. The same can be said of Mahatma Gandhi.

In my mind anyway, the civil rights movement would not have been possible if it were not for MLK.

Look as South Africa and Nelson Mandella. The gay movement needs a gay MLK right now.

[madmadmad]

32. absolutely, we desperately need a MLK- they don't need to be gay either- just a leader.

we so need a voice.

[Shiver]

84. Kicking and rec'ing for this post alone

I don't completely agree with every aspect of your OP, but you hit the nail on the head with this one short statement.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tomg]

34. Great post. What I need to

remember is that Clinton started out with integrating the military, but I accepted "Don't Ask Don't Tell," DOMA and a whole host of other things. I didn't keep his feet to the fire. Well,Obama has been elected now. I find the choice of Rick Warren despicable. If it is a means of really advancing rights for the GLBT community , it will be worth it ( kind of "you got Rick Warren, and, just as heads up, DOMA and "Don't ask, don't tell" are history, and - oh, real equal right for all - I'm putting Barney Frank in charge of it). If it is more "here's to the new boss, same as the old boss," then it is my job to do my part this time ( which I failed to do last time") to keep up the pressure. I vote Democratic. I need to remember I am a progressive. Obama's job is to get the job done and to figure out how to do it. It is our job to keep reminding him just what that job is. Equal rights for all is at the top. ( incidentally, I think I am being optimistic about the inviting of Rick Warren but I don't like knocking a coach before the game has begun - in either case, it doesn't excuse me from doing what I know is right.)

[Yes We Did]

36. When were gays...

Stolen from their families, put on ships, taken to a new country and turned into slaves?

While the question of civil rights for all remains the same, your post minimizes the struggles of African Americans, and you are basically saying that the two struggles are "separate but equal."

You couldn't be more wrong.

We all deserve the same civil rights. All of us. Let's leave it at that rather than try to compare or say which group has been discriminated against more.

Quite frankly, in my humble opinion, you both lose that argument. Let us not forget the only genocide this country has ever participated in; Native Americans.

[mondo joe]

37. When were blacks criminalized just for being black?

When were black kids abused and abandoned by their own family just because they were black?

Gays, blacks, Jews, native Americans and others have all had unique histories and struggle. It's not apples to apples.

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice. But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." "

That was Coretta Scott King. But what the fuck did she know about the civil rights struggle or being black anyway?

[Yes We Did]

38. Um... It was called slavery.

That's when. And you know how I feel about Native Americans.

As I said, we all deserve the same rights. Comparing the struggles of different groups really solves nothing.

[mondo joe]

39. Non responsive.

How long do you think gay people have been oppressed for being gay?

(And by oppressed I'm included being imprisoned, and murdered.)

[Yes We Did]

40. How long were they enslaved?

How many of them had their land stolen and families butchered? How many of them were sent to concentration camps?

Different times. Different struggles.

I am not minimizing their struggles; but they are not the same.

[mondo joe]

41. Forever.

And you are minimizing them.

I already said they're not the same. They are each unique because each history and condition is unique.

Jews have had experiences no other group has. So have gays. So have blacks. So have others.

But you are in fact minimizing them. And you are minimizing them about the one group that right now has the least legal protection.

[Yes We Did]

43. I have done no such thing.

All I have done is say you can't compare them. They are not the same thing. Rather than trying to focus on who had it worse, why not focus on fixing it. That is all I am saying.

Please do not mis-charactarize what I have said.

I don't particularly care "who had it worse"

As I said, we all deserve to have the same rights. Period.

[mondo joe]

46. Perhaps I've misunderstood, and if I have, I apologize.

Your first post appeared to be a checklist of things blacks have experienced that gays haven't (except of course, black gays).

It appeared to be an argument that the black experience is worse.

I may have misread, and again, apologize if that was the case.

I agree fully with you that we all deserve to have the same rights.

[Yes We Did]

49. No problem Mondo.

It happens; that's what happens when you have to read something rather than hear it. I wish they had a feature on here where you could use a mic too... like in chat rooms.

[phleshdef]

45. I don't think you want to start comparing US prison stats for THIS argument.

[mondo joe]

47. I wasn't arguing stats. Try again, for reading comprehension this time. NT

[Yes We Did]

48. Exactly.

although I don't think that is what Mondo was doing.

My uncle is a prison guard... He said AA outnumber whites at least 7-1 in his prison. Now... when they comprise roughly 13% of the population, there is no way in hell the numbers should be like that.

AAs go to prison for things whites rarely do.

[moriah]

61. I didn't see him stating the struggles were "separate but equal"

But more that segregation and civil unions are both "separate but equal" based concepts.

They both come from the same thinking -- that it's fine to give one group one thing as long as the other group has something similar -- instead of recognizing that all people deserve certain universal rights and giving them a different name, a different water fountain, or a different building is discriminatory in and of itself.

Again, I think the state of the fight for marriage equality is closer to the struggle that the abolitionist movement went through more than the struggle against segregation and Jim Crow laws. In the segregation issue, for example, black children did at least have a school to go to in every state in the US, even if it was not the same one or on the same level as the school white children went to in some states. At the moment, the majority of states in the US refuse to recognize any type of domestic partnership right at all, and the states where "separate but equal" reigns (DPs, CUs) give many more rights than the rest of the country.

[Zynx]

82. Can gays vote? I think they can. Blacks in the South couldn't vote due to Jim Crow laws.

I'm sorry, but there is a difference in degree here. The principle might be the same, but in principle a white hate group that kills one person is just as destructive as Hitler. Though just as evil, they are not just as destructive.

[Number23]

52. Oh My God. There is nowhere to go but UP after this post.

they had a president like lyndon b. johnson, who while his private beliefs may have been otherwise, realized that discrimination was wrong, and signed that civil rights bill into law. we had masses of the public agreeing that unjust treatment of minorities was just plain wrong and rejoiced in his decision, as well as a media who worked to disseminate the view that discrimination was not ok, and would not be tolerated any longer.

This post should serve as a beacon to every single person on this site who tries to say that racism is no longer alive and well in America. And that only conservatives are ignorant of our country's racial history and struggles.

I can't take this anymore. I have tried and I cannot take this one damn second longer.

[madmadmad]

54. hey number23- calling me is a racist is a bit strong. all i know of the civil rights struggle...

is what i learned in school, and read in the media. if you wish to call me ignorant, fine, then enlighten me. you are the second person on this thread to call me racist, so if i am, please tell me how- racism is something i have no tolerance for (like homophobia), and so i would NEVER wish to come off as such.

but if you are calling me racist just because i can draw parallels between the struggles of two groups of marginalized people, well then that's uncalled for.

[Number23]

55. I have not called you anything, including a racist. But I am calling you an ignorant fool

But you are surely not alone.

This has just about done it for me here.

[madmadmad]

57. actually, you DID call me a racist (in addition to the ignorant fool you just added), and i quote:

"This post should serve as a beacon to every single person on this site who tries to say that racism is no longer alive and well in America."

that would be calling me a racist since i am indeed the author of this post. and i say again, enlighten me in my ignorance- which you have mentioned twice now- i don't wish to be ignorant or racist. i'm not baiting you, i'm asking you a sincere question:

why does my post serve to illustrate why racism is alive in america? and obviously, i'm not alone, so really- educate me, educate us...

[cali]

53. boy, what a crock of shit. really fucking awful

Straight people have fought right along with the GLBT community. How the fuck do you think that advances have been made. And boy, have they been made. Furthermore, if you think that all African Americans were on the same page 50 years ago, think again. Just as all whites weren't in solicarity with AAs, not all straight people are on board with GLBT rights.

Oh forget it. Your fucking idiot post doesn't deserve any respect.

[madmadmad]

56. like the appaling number of straight people on this board telling us to "get over it"

that we have no right to feel betrayed that a homophobe and hate monger is speaking at an event which he should never have been a part of?

like that so-called progressives aren't angry that a man who belives in the inferiorority if women, and the evilness of jews has been given a national platform to spew his hate? this a betrayal of EVERYTHING we've fought so hard against for the last 8 years- all of us, not just the gays.

or the lying bastard that said he was my "fierce advocate" and then invited a man who prays for the elimination of my existence? he couldn't give me just ONE FUCKING DAY to celbrate before he sticks the knife in my back? he couldn't "reach out" to that fat fuck later, giving him the honor of taking part in one of the most important days of our lifetimes?

or the 53% of you that voted to take away my rights? like THAT kind of fighting along with me? like THOSE kind of advances?

please enlighten, which crock of shit you were referring to, 'cause frankly i'm seeing lots of crocks, but not coming from me.

[Danger Mouse]

59. thanks for turning off the caps.

:hi:

[moriah]

60. Maybe it has more in common with the abolitionist movement than the 1960s movement.

After all, it wasn't that long ago that homosexual sex was finally decriminalized.

We don't even have "separate but equal" in most states -- in most states it's flatly against the law to marry if you don't happen to be of the "correct" gender.

[Veruca Salt]

102. Like it was with the anti-miscegenation laws

for people of two races to get married: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws

I also need to do a bit more research into it, but it appears that Arizona's law of the day was that if you were of mixed racial heritage - you couldn't legally marry anyone in Arizona.

[TK421]

62. Condensed version....gays just are not taken seriously in this country

if its their rights that are being violated, everyone shrugs their shoulders and says big deal.

Myself and a co-worker had a discussion about this two days ago, and that was pretty much how he felt about it.

The sad thing is, I have a feeling things will get much worse before they get better

[ShadowLiberal]

63. You miss the point, blacks were treated worse yes, but nongays support gays to

I must strongly disagree with your claim that no one is coming to the defense of gays.

First let me start off with people who have come to gay's defense. Look at politicians in California, Massachusetts, and other New England states, and New Jersey to. There were people there who spoke out in favor of gays, and that's why gay marriage has been legalized in some of the New England states. New Jersey tried to get Gay Marriage legalized when the court stopped short of awarding gays marriage, but gave them all other rights that come with it. There were plenty of legislators who stood up and furiously argued against just giving them civil unions instead of marriage. There's also plenty of people who are standing up for other gay rights, like serving openly in the military, even some military leaders who once supported don't ask don't tell now say they support repealing it, and they aren't sticking their neck out all that much by doing so, since 3/4's of the nation is for it.

But now to your claim about everyone arguing that other things are more important then gay rights, and people throwing gays under the bus.

The fact is that while I myself compare gays struggle with black's struggle at times, part of the reason you see people speak out less about it is because the treatment towards gays is considerably better then how horribly blacks were treated back in the 60's.

As much as even rapid rightwingers hate gays and claim that being gay is a choice, they don't do stuff like try to enforce a so called 'separate but equal' upon them. They merely spout hate speech about them, and yell whenever anyone tries to give them rights that they don't have for being gay (and gays have considerably more rights today then blacks did in the 60's).

Because of this things are not quite as urgent as they would be otherwise, and politicians are less willing to stick their necks out on the biggest issue for gays, which is gay marriage, because quite simply that's unfortunately still a suicidal move at the national level. On plenty of other issues however, like don't ask don't tell for example, many are speaking out, and willing to stand up to that unjust law and repeal it, and they almost certainly will sometime in Obama's administration. In other parts of the nation gays are also gaining other rights, such as adoption in more and more places.

While we may not get all of the equal rights for gays in say the next decade, it's only a matter of time if you look at the polls. The number of people who support all sorts of different civil rights for gays that they don't have right now has consistently been raising more and more over the years. I believe majorities, often of much more then 10%, now support pretty much all rights for gays other then gay marriage and civil unions. But even civil unions with the same rights as marriage have majority support according to the polls. Even better yet, the polls show 2/3's of young people support gay marriage, and if that trend holds (and there's no real reason to believe the number of young opposing gay marriage will grow) then it's only a matter of time until a majority of Americans support gay marriage.

[firedupdem]

64. You know what...

I really wish you would leave African Americans out of your conversation. Yes, gays are discriminated against and it's horrible. However, there is no need to compare struggles unless you want to use the leadership of Dr. King as a learning tool.

Black people were enslaved for hundreds of years, this country was built on the backs of black people. Nothing came easy and it still ain't easy. Gays have never had to deal with separate schools, restrooms, jim crow laws that stated what side of the fucking street we could walk on etc. I haven't seen gays blasted by the force of water hoses, I haven't seen dogs released on you as you march peacefully down the street. I haven't seen angry mobs pelt you with bricks and bottles. I haven't seen separate waiting rooms at a bus or train station. I haven't seen separate water fountains or you having to get your food at the back door of a restaurant.

Fight for your rights on their own merit. Stop comparing. It's not fair and it hurts those of us who are on your side but keep getting smacked down verbally for trying to offer suggestions for routes you can take to get your point across without the comparison.

And just an fyi....even when the law was signed...there was no magic wand. It took the national guard to protect students trying to go to school. Stop comparing and organize, educate and fight.

[Yes We Did]

65. You put that very well.

Thank you for expressing my thoughts too.

[madmadmad]

66. point taken

but are you willing to stop merely offering suggestions as to what route we should take, and to stand up "organize, educate and fight" with us? because that's my complaint- not enough people care enough about our rights to stand with us. hell, half the people on this board- our allies- don't even care enough to say those who preach against us are wrong, and shouldn't be given a platform.

we've got NO critical mass. out gays and lesbians probably only account for 2-3% of the population- too small a figure to be taken seriously, and not big enough for anyone to think twice about throwing us under that goddamn bus. we need others to stand up and fight with us, otherwise we'll be marginalized, again and again. we just want the equal protection and rights under the law that you've worked so hard to get, and just by simple mathematics, we cannot ever achieve on our own.

and fully aware there is no magic wand- they'll still hate me, and do everything in their power to keep me as a second class citizen. but as you know, that is just a little harder to do with the law on my side.

[farmboy]

68. I couldn't disagree with your argument more. The civil rights struggles of both gays and blacks will

forever be tied together just as they should be. And they both should be connected to the fight for women's rights and any group that is attacked, castigated, separated, or belittled for being different. Why would any group that has been fighting this struggle not associate itself and bring the "new" kid under its wing as part of the humanity fighting for the same rights for us all?

You point out what you say are distinct issues that blacks faced (Jim Crow laws, separating blacks and whites in schools/restrooms/waiting rooms, violence from authority and citizens that you haven't seen aimed at gays. Well, I say open your eyes and heart wider and don't be afraid or ashamed to stand beside us. Because specific incidences are different for different groups doesn't mean the overall fight isn't very much alike, very much for the same things against the same people who refuse them. That is where the comparison is most valid and most essential to be made as a learning tool. If we don't learn from history, we repeat our mistakes. Don't ask me to start from scratch as though that has some moral power when the groundwork has been laid by our heroes before us who believed in equality FOR ALL, not just blacks or women or any other specific minority.

And to your list of wrongs aimed at blacks that you seem to be saying were much more atrocious that what any gay person has experienced, I say WRONG! The horrific slavery, separation and humiliation of blacks over a long period of time is horrible. But your fight was due to discrimination and bigotry for the color of your skin. Discrimination and bigotry aimed at me is due to my sexual orientation, not as visible on the outside but vilified by many once it is known. Not nearly as different as you want us to believe. One is just more obvious sooner than the other.

You may have had a cross burned in your yard. I was cornered in a school restroom and forced to pull my pants down and laughed at as a second grader because the other boys said I was a sissy. You may have had a dog bite you during a protest for your rights to eat in a restaurant. I was physically beaten, verbally taunted and threatened, and publicly humiliated in high school by bullies while school leaders looked the other way. You may have nightmares about someone taking you away from your family forever and selling you like an object. I have had nightmares based on real experiences of having gay slurs scratched on my car door, of having important figures such as teachers, friends, community leaders reject me with hostile words and actions. And most painfully, I have suffered the suicides of three gay male friends in the last 10 years due to the stress brought upon them from society to be something other than themselves.

My experience tells me that as soon as I make myself visible as a gay man I become a target for some, just as blacks have been, just as women have been, just as Jews, Hispanics and other minorities have been and continue to be. I will NEVER stop comparing, as you demand I do. I will use every tool in my power to educate and demonstrate how equality is for good for all of us. I will shout loudly to all that my rights and merits are as entwined in those of blacks as were blacks with those who came before. I hope you will be here with me.

[firedupdem]

70. You assume again that I'm not with you and thats completely

untrue. I'm sorry for all the things you've dealt with and I hurt right along with you. I will not go back and forth with you over who has suffered more or less because emotions are too raw for that conversation.

You can continue to compare the two issues and in my opinion you will lose the fight each and every time. People continue to believe that being gay is a choice. People fight what they can't understand or what they are being taught is wrong. That is the biggest issue we're facing in my opinion. You still have parents kicking kids out into the street for being gay. Education is key. How you go about educating people when they think tossing their own flesh and blood out is okay is beyond me.

I'm with you 100% and I wish you peace

[farmboy]

79. But I haven't lost the fight each time. I'm winning more and more every day. You are wrong...

that people can't grow out of their prejudices and understand being gay is NOT a choice for most. I know I was born gay. Most straight people believe they were born straight. Understanding is happening. This controversy will aid in that understanding, but it is another example of the pain that must be felt in order to get to what Dr. King called "the promised land." For all of your good wishes and 'stand togetherness', your beliefs to the contrary are just part of the muddy waters that must be drained in order to get there.

As for your not wanting to go back and forth about degrees of suffering, don't put forth the "back" if you won't let me offer a "forth." I never would compare specific examples of the suffering, just, like I said earlier, that the arguments against civil rights for blacks and gays were/are very similar made by similar people attempting for similar results...the exclusion and separation of a minority group. I don't see how anyone who has fought the struggle could not embrace in every way the same fight for another oppressed group...unless there is some innate dislike, intolerance, or discrimination for that group by the said individual.

And lastly, I have spent many hours as a counselor to gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered youth and have seen amazing things. Times have changed since I was in school and in adolescence. Young people are still being thrown out of home, but other parents who might have been prone do so are less so these days. Gay people do still kill themselves, but others are more emboldened to fight societal arguments against their self-worth.

Things are changing. That you are using this situation as an example that people can't and won't change is harmful. That you are so sure a comparison between the struggles of black and gay civil rights is detrimental is harmful. That you agree education is the key, but you want a form of eduction that calls for a lack of acknowledgment of the similarities between current and previous civil rights struggles is harmful. But yours will not be the last word. People are better than that. Despite my negative experiences, I've seen it. I believe it. I know it.

[Zynx]

81. What you have pointed out is the reason that like with every other civil rights movement

gay rights will not be solidified for a long time. The general conscience of the country has to move in order for these things to happen. It is moving slowly and that is what it will take. The struggle for women's rights went from the 1840s in this country well through the 1970s and still certainly continues today. The struggles for civil rights for blacks was from the beginning of this country with early abolitionists through those who pushed for anti-lynching laws in the 1920s and 1930s through LBJ and certainly into the present. These movements take time. It's sad but true. The fact so many states passed gay marriage bans by fairly large margins just goes to show you how long we still need for people to come around.

[alwysdrunk]

76. Everyone says this

No one hears it....

[mondo joe]

85. I think Coretta Scott King was a greater authority on this than you.

But that's okay. I understand exactly where you're coming from.

[alwysdrunk]

88. What?

Coretta Scott King says that gay activists get hit with bricks and fire hoses, arrested and beaten by the cops? She says that blacks in the 60's had more rights than gays do now? I was replying to a post, did you skip it and go straight to mine?

[mondo joe]

89. ...

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice. But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." "

But what the fuck did she know about the civil rights struggle anyway?

[alwysdrunk]

90. That has nothing to do with the post or my reply

I think it's great that Mrs. wanted to lend her support to rights issues other than race. Neither post had anything to do with that.

[mondo joe]

91. Take comfort in your superiority.

I know you will.

*click*

[Fire1]

93. Nor have gays been "considered less than human" (Rev. Lowery)

[farmboy]

69. Thank you madmadmad, for speaking for me so well. Keep it up!

[alwysdrunk]

72. From a purely strategic standpoint, this comparison hurts the gay cause

It turns off blacks and other racial minorities who may otherwise be allies.

Let's say the gay rights struggle and the black civil rights struggle are like for like, totally equal and comparable.

The problem is, even if it was true, the vast majority of black people will never see it this way. Most of the are actually offended by the comparison, and will cite reasons such as those in firedupdem's post and other things like how they never had the choice to "come out as black" as why.

Opinion polling shows discrepancies, and many people believe that blacks are far more homophobic as a group. While there is some truth to that, I think this argument for gay rights, which may be effective with the majority whites, but is very counter productive with blacks and other racial minorities.

[Zynx]

83. It rubs me the wrong way and I am for gay marriage.

I am well versed in both histories, but they are not the same thing.

[bluedawg12]

97. Then PE Obama's words must rub you the wrong way too?

"My attitude is if people are being treated unfairly and unequally, then it needs to be fixed. So I’m always very cautious about getting into comparisons of victimology. You know, the issues that gays and lesbians face today are different from the issues that were faced by African-Americans under Jim Crow.

That doesn’t mean, though, that there aren’t parallels in the sense that legal status is not equal.

And that has to be fixed.

I’m going to be more sympathetic not because I’m black.

I’m going to be more sympathetic because this has been the cause of my life and will continue to be the cause of my life, making sure that everybody’s treated fairly and that we’ve got an expansive view of America, where everybody’s invited in and we are all working together to create the kind of America that we want for the next generation." -Barrack Obama

Source: 2007 HRC/LOGO debate on gay issues Aug 9, 2007

[matcom]

73. "we don't have armies of non-gays beside us"

this is why you FAIL

if you really believe that, you aren't fit to post here.

bye

[No Elephants]

75. Nothing in common? Their objectives are the same. Things do not have to be identical in every

respect in order to be compared. Human rights, dignity, self-respect, etc. are values and principles involved in every struggle for human rights.

Heck, one can conclude that thing are different from each other ONLY after comparing them. In fact your own opening post compares the two struggles, then points out the differences you found when you made the comparison.

If you want to say that the two struggles are not IDENTICAL or should not be EQUATED, I can agree with you. But saying that they should not and cannot be compared is simply untrue. So is saying they have nothing at all in common.

If someone makes a specific comparison with which you disagree, voice your disagreement. But I don't understand the apparent need people seem to have to attempt to prohibit this kind of discussion or that. Please, we don't need comparison police, too.

[IdaBriggs]

78. I am an army of one, and I support GLBT rights, including marriage.

I think this deserves a post of its own. Hmmm.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. wtf?

One of the worst thread starters ever. Congratulations.

[lunatica]

86. It's isn't apples and oranges because gays are black/white/women/men/

and of all races, all religions, all cultures and all walks of life. And that point needs to be emphasized more than any other point. We all have infinitely more in common than differences. This is so self evident that there isn't even any need for me to list examples. If and When this obvious fact is ever recognized these struggles for equality will be unnecessary.

It's simply incorrect to say that blacks had support that gays don't because obviously black gay people never had that support just as no other group in the LGBT community.

[Fire1]

94. True. BUT, AA gays were Black BEFORE they were gay.

[bluedawg12]

96. So what? Then they grew up and fell in love and deserve gay rights.

[Fire1]

103. So,. it IS apples and oranges.

[Geek_Girl]

87. I find it tragically Ironic that we have the first African American

president in history and on his inauguration day he is pandering to bigots.

[slackmaster]

92. I've been working in support of gay rights for many years, and I will continue to do so

Whether or not my efforts are appreciated by all those who will benefit from them.

If anyone cares, I am a straight white male 50-year-old divorced empty nester.

:hi:

I think people need to realize that civil rights were not won in the '50s and '60s by angry mobs calling people bigots to their faces. They were won through tireless negotiation and efforts to teach, and by exceptional people setting good examples to prove that black people and members of other minorities have intelligence, integrity, and dignity.

BTW - K&R

:kick:

[Fearless]

95. Well I wouldn't say they have NOTHING in common...

However, I would bet the difference lies within the visibility of GLBTQness vs. the visibility of Blackness. Clearly you can tell if someone is Black, but GLBTQness is not primarily a physical characteristic. It's more internal and deals with sex, which much of Western Society has trouble discussing anyways, never you mind that "different" sex. I don't justify it. I just call it as I see it. Until we know why, we can't fix the lack of equality.

That said, gay rights did exist in the 60's and 70's. And, GLBTQ people did in a large part support Black equality (which let's not dupe ourselves, has not quite been reached yet). It seems that the civil rights movement died before gay rights took stage. But, take heart. Throughout the history of this nation, we have adapted this nation's laws to truly achieve the promises of "all men (etc.) are created equal". It has so far occurred in stages. Legislation in 1820 allowed non-land owning white men to vote for the first time. The passage of the 13th-15th Amendments in 1864 allowed Black men to vote. Women gained the right in 1920 with the 19th Amendment. Women who had helped with anti-slavery movements saw that Black men could now vote and asked why not them. After all, they had helped and felt that they were given the short end of the stick. In the same right, the civil rights movement of the 1960's was a party of many different groups. Whites, Blacks, Native Americans, and GLBTQers to name a few. Of course, integration occurred and paved the way for interracial marriage. Now we've begun taking the steps towards GLBTQ rights because they (we) feel like they've (we've) gotten the short end of the stick from the civil rights movement. Didn't we after all play a part in helping overturn Jim Crow? In overturning interracial marriage bans? Of course. And now we want ours. And steps have been taken. If we haven't been effective, then DOMA would not have been "necessary". It's a step in the right direction. We've taken two more steps just recently as well. First, Proposition 8's passing has brought together the movement and solidified its resolve. And secondly, with its passing, the (legitimate) news media has in covering the proceedings thrown their support for GLBTQ rights; even if it is unspoken as of yet, we've shut up the wingnuts. Their power is waning. Soon we'll move ahead further. It's all done in steps. And since I'm sure I've begun to ramble, I'll leave it at that.

[bluedawg12]

99. We can fix this with our attitutes, starting with the idea that civil rights matter

Not just some people's civil rights but all people's civil rights.

You can take that to the bank, it is an ideal held by PE Obama. Pass it on.
.......

"My attitude is if people are being treated unfairly and unequally, then it needs to be fixed ...That doesn’t mean, though, that there aren’t parallels (to AA civil rights) in the sense that legal status is not equal for gays. And that has to be fixed.

I’m going to be more sympathetic not because I’m black. I’m going to be more sympathetic because this has been the cause of my life and will continue to be the cause of my life, making sure that everybody’s treated fairly and that we’ve got an expansive view of America, where everybody’s invited in and we are all working together to create the kind of America that we want for the next generation.” - Then candidate: Barack Obama

Source: 2007 HRC/LOGO debate on gay issues Aug 9, 2007

[skygazer]

98. That's such an unfair statement

I know many, many people gay and straight, myself included who worked tirelessly to defeat Prop 8 here in California. I know a whole lot of them, myself included, who cried tears of anger and frustration when it passed - totally dampened the euphoria of seeing our guy win.

And I know plenty of straight people, myself included, who are deeply offended by the choice of Warren to offer this stupid invocation.

Broad brush bullshit like this does nothing for anyone's cause.

[AntiFascist]

100. That's why I try to educate people on the Prop 8 legal arguments...

they are very educational. Prop 8, if it is allowed to stand, could begin the process of turning back the clock on everyone's civil rights.