I think the fact that the Warren outrage isn't going away is a good thing, even a very good thing

[cali]

The outrage over Warren extends well beyond the borders of DU. It's spreading throughout the circles of liberals and progressives. Here's why I think it's such a good thing:

1) It brings the issue of equal rights into sharp focus and keeps it in the spotlight.

2) It puts pressure on President-Elect Obama to live up to promises made to the GLBT community.

3) It exposes Rick Warren and what he really represents. Many, many people in this country have the mistaken view that Warren is a "moderate evangelical leader". They don't know that he's cut from the same cloth as Falwell, Dobson and other fundies. Even many folks on the left didn't understand that prior to this situation.

I know there are some people here who think the situation is overblown and are frustrated that it seems to be the only topic being discussed here. And that includes some GLBT folks. To those people I'd like to say that although I respect your perspective, I think you're wrong. I also want to add that I think calling people house gays because they don't share what some deem the proper level of outrage, is in itself pretty outrageous.

I believe there's a silver lining to the Warren mess. Sure, I could be wrong, but we'll find out in short order. I don't think Obama realized how strong the backlash would be. He calcultated wrong. That was evident in his news conference last week when he said he was "a fierce advocate for GLBT rights". Now he has to demonstrate that he'll be any kind of an advocate. Should he procrastinate on, for example, DADT, the outrage over Warren will simply intensify. And he has no excuses on DADT. Allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly with no conditions, is very popular among the American people.

So there you have it. The outrage over Warren could prove to be effective on a couple of levels. Time will tell.

[Orsino]

1. There are many, many things we must demand of our new government.

If working for the dismissal of Warren helps keep us involved, that's a great thing.

[cali]

3. I don't think it's just about demanding the removal of Warren

I think it's about pressuring Obama to do the right thing once he assumes office and about shining a light on the bigotry of fundy views.

[Orsino]

8. I thought I just said that??? n/t

[RichGirl]

17. Many things we must demand???

Who is the "we"??? There are a lot of people who disagree with you...should they DEMAND too?

Isn't that EXACTLY what Obama DIDN'T want???? As I recall, when he talked about change at the convention, he said that instead of focussing on our differences we need to find common ground. To simply keep demanding and fighting over our differences is the same old way that things have always been done and never worked. That's the change Obama wanted. Remember...no red states, no blue states...the United States. What the hell did you think that meant...that once we get a democratic president it going to be all our way?

[No Elephants]

25. What the hell does red state blue state have to do with it? The debate about Warren is

not about people simply being Republican or Democrat. It's about hatred and discrimination. And please bag the false dichotomy. It's not "Either we continue partisan fighting forever to the detriment of America Or we invite Warren to give the invocation at the most historic inauguration since Washingtons's." That is not our only choice. There are many, many steps in between those two extremes.

I must have seen 150 posts from your side of this issue during this weekend that pretend our only alternative is one of those extremes or the other. It's old and it's intellectually dishonest. I really hope it stops soon.

[RichGirl]

27. The most historic inauguration...is NOT...

a Democratic inauguration...it's an American inauguation which includes ALL Americans, not just those who share our views. It is not about Rick Warren at all. It is about Obama, who considers himself president of ALL Americans, not just those who he agrees with. It's about his willingness to include people who represent many DIFFERENT points of view. If Obama excluded people who disagreed with him he would be just like Warren, and worse yet, just like Bush. Including Warren isn't just about him, it's including the multitude of people who support his general views. Supporting someone doesn't mean you agree with everything that they do...like with Obama, many of us support him but probably disagree with him on a few points. So with those who support Warren, they may be Christian, pro-life, but not necessarily anti-gay marriage, etc.


Obama said that in order to get things done, we have to stop fighting over differences and start looking for common ground. That is EXACTLY what he is fucking doing! I didn't vote for Obama to continue the fighting and polarization....us against you...we're right you're wrong...blah, blah, blah.

[Orsino]

39. Asking nicely hasn't worked our so well, has it?

Yes, it's way past time we issued demands. All of us.

Or should we wait timidly for the corporations and the haters to go first, as they always seem to do?

[BeFree]

2. Sure, all three things

But the fourth is a bummer.

The fourth is the fact that it appears we are abandoning Obama. 30 days before he is even seated and we've got folks who claim to have 'lost faith', 'don't believe anymore', and etc.

The rest of the party is looking at us like: there they go again, the crazy left.

No wonder we get no respect.

[cali]

5. I don't believe that's true. I don't see that it appears that most

people speaking out against the Warren invocation are abandoning Obama. In fact most of the people here that are apparently doing so, never had any use at all for Obama. And I don't see any evidence that the rest of the party is looking at us in the way you describe.

[BeFree]

10. Well appearances are apperances

"""The thrill is gone. Impeach him, just wait till 2012, """"

All that and more are like a sore thumb, ugly and hurting, that enemies will use to make the next 4 years hurt Obama to no end. You know they will.

We appear scattered, fractured and flailing about, eating our own. Any party regular who is not a regular here goes away from here disgusted with the show we've put on these last few days.

Its a fact.

[Shiver]

4. Clarification, please

'I also want to add that I don't think calling people house gays because they don't share what some deem the proper level of outrage, is in itself pretty outrageous.'

Are you saying you do find it outrageous to call them this, or you don't find it outrageous? I had a hard time parsing the sentence.

[cali]

6. oops. my error the first don't needs to go. Sorry about that and

thanks for the proof reading.

[Shiver]

9. No problem, I thought that was what you had meant.

I agree with your post, by the way. I've been thinking the same thing, especially numbers 1 and 3 for a few days now.

I would, however, like to see a return to basic civility in the discourse...

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uponit7771]

11. Number 3 is very very very big IMHO. A lot of people didnt know Warren was a flame thrower and I'm..

...thinking niether did obama.

I didnt know Warren was a James Dobson "light" until I read it recently

[cali]

12. I didn't realize either unitl I was educated here.

but I don't see how Obama could have been unaware.

[depakid]

13. Some people knew that this guy was a fundamentalist nutter back last summer

and were appalled that Obama would appear with McCain to be grilled at his ridiculous "faith forum."

Most of us were roundly shouted down- here and on other boards and IRL.

No one raised a eyebrow then- until afterwards, when Obama went first, sounded wishy washy and McCain had either heard the questions on TV or had possibly been given the questions well in advance.

My guess is that if there were a fraction of the outrage then as there is today (after Prop 8) -we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[QC]

14. "roundly shouted down"

That's a pretty fair description of the DU experience for many people this past year.

[depakid]

20. The only good thing about that so called "faith forum" was that hardly anyone watched

The whole deal came across as demeaning for Obama- getting grilled by some stupid fundie, and trounced by McCain (who we now know, at least heard the Q & A -when Warren insisted he was in a "cone of silence").

Some of us warned that that would be a big mistake- and sure enough, it was.

Fortunately (or perhaps less fortunately given the current shitstorm) -no one was paying much attention to the corporate media's reviews on the "performances" either.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. It's a very good thing. I will not let something wrong die nt

[alwysdrunk]

16. It'll go away soon, but you're right about number 2

Still it won't be anytime soon, but he definitely knows that he "owes one" to the GBLT community now.

I disagree about number 3 though. Everyone knows that evangelicals are all about the same on these issues. I could have told you where Warren stands once I heard how popular he was.

[cali]

18. Warren has been heavily depicted by the MSM as a new breed of

more tolerant evangelicals. Combine that with his quasi new age style and he's seen by many as not as fundamentalist as Dobson or the others.

[RichGirl]

21. What Obama owes the GBLT community....

...is the same thing he owes all Americans...which is what he promised...a better life. By ALL Americans, I mean, left, right, gay, straight, black, white...even those nutcases who are desperately trying to disprove his birth certificate.

If he wants to do big things and make big changes he is going to have to get as many people as possible on his side. If the gay community and their supporters and the people who agree with them, could change laws, it would have happened all long time ago. But, it requires a majority, like everything else in a democracy. If you want to get something done, you have to win people to your side. Demanding, fighting, telling people they are wrong and evil, doesn't bring them to your side.

You can't win them, by excluding them. You have to do it that way Obama said...at the convention...by FINDING COMMON GROUND. By including them. When Obama includes Warren, he includes all those who support him. If he listens to them, they are more likely to listen to him...and hopefully, goodness will prevail. But, it will never prevail by demanding it.

[mondo joe]

28. You don't give people a better life by legitimizing attackers of their families.

Keep rationalizing though.

[RichGirl]

31. By no stretch of the imagination or by any measure...except maybe in your mind...

...does Obama LEGITIMIZE the views of Rick Warren. That is beyond ridiculous and you well know it. You are adding drama to a situation that doesn't need it. Worse yet...your attitude has the narrow mindedness of Sarah Palin. Did Obama LEGITIMIZE terrorism by associating with Bill Ayres? Do you equate Ayres with bin Laden....is Rick Warren just an egotistical, ignorant minister, or the DEVIL HIMSELF COME TO DESTROY THE WORLD.

That kind of extremist attitude hurts a cause, it doesn't help it. Helping it would be what Obama is doing...finding common ground, including, not excluding...listening to other points of views so that they will listen to yours.

[mondo joe]

32. Of course he does. You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

This isn't just associating with, and you know it. It's choosing someone for a particular honor.

Stop your strawmen, or don't. You're not fooling anyone with any integrity.

[1776Forever]

19. I agree with you especially on this point.......

"It exposes Rick Warren and what he really represents. Many, many people in this country have the mistaken view that Warren is a "moderate evangelical leader". They don't know that he's cut from the same cloth as Falwell, Dobson and other fundies. Even many folks on the left didn't understand that prior to this situation."

I had NO idea what this man was about until I started to read posts and look on the Net to find out more. I just posted this on him this morning in another thread:

One of Warren's protégés in Uganda - Ssempa rewarded for anti-gay crusade

Monday, September 15, 2008
Ssempa rewarded for anti-gay crusade

http://gayuganda.blogspot.com/2008/09/ssempa-rewarded-for-anti-gay-crusade.html

Sunday, 14th September, 2008

By Joyce Namutebi

DR. Martin Ssempa, a pastor at Makerere Community Church, has received an award for his fight against homosexuality.

Ssempa and his wife Tracey received the plague from Apostle Alex Mitala, the overseer of the National Fellowship of Born Again Churches in Uganda.

This was during the “Great Marriage Celebration” organised by the National Association of Marriage Enhancement in conjunction with the National Fellowship of Born Again Pentecostal Churches in Uganda at Nakivubo Stadium over the weekend.

Mitala led hundreds of couples who converged at the stadium from various parts of the country into a prayer for Ssempa to continue being the torch-bearer in the fight against the vice in Uganda.

“You are not fighting alone. We are with you,” Mitala said.

He said homosexuality was one way of making the world extinct.

“When men marry each other and women marry women, clans and tribes become extinct,” Mitala noted.

Bishop Michael Mugerwa, the organiser of the celebrations, urged couples to continue the fight against homosexuality, saying marriage was made for man and woman.

Ssempa thanked the Christians for standing by him and said he was encouraged by their support to continue with his campaign.

He proposed the establishment of a national marriage alliance to counter homosexuality.

Ssempa said the alliance would also discuss problems concerning marriage in Uganda.

Dr. Joseph Serwadda, the patron of Churches in Communities, asked the Government to consider declaring a national day for married people.

Pr. Robert Kayanja of Lubaga Miracle Centre Cathedral urged husbands to listen to their wives, saying that God can use them to bring blessings in their families.

............

And then there is this on Warrens views on Women from NOW:

National NOW Press Statement:

http://www.now.org/press/12-08/12-18.html

President-elect Obama: We HOPE you will CHANGE your mind
Statement of National Organization for Women (NOW)
December 18, 2008

Millions of people are finalizing their plans to travel to Washington, D.C. on January 20, 2009, to be part of your historic inauguration as the 44th president of the United States. We are all hoping to relive the joy of election night when we stood side by side believing that, together, we can change our country and our world for the better.

Today, we are disheartened that one of the voices that may be privileged to be part of this historic moment is that of Rick Warren. His delivering the invocation would be an insult to all of us, women and men, who support women's right to self-determination. His presence is offensive to all of us, gay and straight, who support equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people.

We understand your desire to engage people from opposing sides of many issues. But dialogue requires treating our opponents with respect. Rick Warren has compared abortion to the Holocaust and stated that he would not vote for a "Holocaust denier." He implies that those of us who support abortion rights are equivalent to Nazis.

Rick Warren worked to take away the rights of LGBT people in California by supporting Proposition 8, calling it a "moral issue that God has spoken clearly about" and stating the "homosexual marriage is one of the five issues that are not negotiable." He calls LGBT people "unnatural."

Words do matter, President-elect Obama. Words lifted you to the White House and all of us to a place where we felt included in your vision. By choosing Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at your inauguration you have deeply offended progressive people who worked and voted for you in record numbers. This is not the tone we hoped you would set on this historic day - and giving a platform to a messenger of intolerance does not send a message of acceptance and change.

There are limitless opportunities for your administration to work with people who do not agree on every issue, but who nonetheless agree that we must end poverty, address climate change, and achieve human rights for all. We are deeply disappointed that you have made a different choice and hope that you will reconsider Rick Warren's inclusion in this important and historic celebration.

President-elect Obama, you can still select a minister who will speak to our collective vision for hope, change and the promise that we will all be part of this great country, and we urge you to do just that.

.............

Is anyone at the Obama Camp listening or care?


:shrug:

[Raster]

22. Truth! Outstanding OP!

We Can Do Better!:kick:STOP the H8!

[tinrobot]

23. Obama provides a stage, others shine the spotlight.

If Obama hadn't chosen him, then few would know about this man's bigotry. I think it's great that Rick Warren's bigoted views are being held up to the light and shown to all.

[Hepburn]

24. Warren is Dogson and Fartwell but...

...just has a better PR person.

[nichomachus]

26. We have two choices -- the Democratic approach or the Freeper approach

In the Democratic approach, you elect a candidate and then you work like hell to get that candidate to address your interests. You won't always get everything you want, but if you don't keep up the pressure, if you don't hold the person's feet in the fire constantly, you get shit.

In the Freeper approach, you elect someone. Then, you sit back in their reflected glory. You sit in awe of every decision they make. You "trust" them to do the right thing. You defend their every action and decision -- no matter how you have to twist and bend logic. You criticize anyone who criticizes the candidate. The candidate is never wrong. The smartest guy in the room. You just sit down, shut up, and let him tell you what to think.

Make your choice.

[mondo joe]

29. Feet to the fire. Neither Obama nor the DNC will get one more dollar or vote from this gay man

until and unless they change their ways.

[RichGirl]

34. You'll be saving money and not voting for Obama....

Obama will accomplish what he said he would, but he won't do it your way...fighting, alienating, excluding. He is not going into the presidency with baseball bat.

He is going in with tea and cookies...once they are all inside, happy and high on sugar, he'll haul out the tupperware and he'll sell out. You can't sell a single piece of tupperware if you don't get any guests.

You may want to revise your threat. Base your contributions and vote on accomplishment and not tactics. Maybe, just maybe, he's smarter than you.

And since, you are a gay man...I have a bone to pick with you. Whenever gay people talk about marriage, it's that they want the legal advantages that come with marriage. My problem is this...why do married people get legal and tax advantages???? Single, living alone people don't have another person to pay half the rent, electric, etc. They already have greater expenses than married people...so if anyone should get tax advantages it's single people. Some of us who have realized from experience that marriage sucks the life blood out of your soul are punished because we want to live a happier life.

The hospital law is another stupid law any way you look at it. It should be a basic human right that if you are sick you should be able to see the people YOU WANT TO SEE. That list could be on your record incase you are unconscious. You might not want to see your husband or mother...you may want to see your Yoga instructor...etc.

I want you to be able to have the learning experience and emotional work out that can only be gotten from taking a perfectly good relationship and applying a contract to it...in other words I would fight for your right to get married. Would you fight for me...and other single people who are financially penalized because we don't choose to be married?

[mondo joe]

36. STFU about my "way". You don't know shit about me.

"And since, you are a gay man...I have a bone to pick with you. Whenever gay people talk about marriage, it's that they want the legal advantages that come with marriage. My problem is this...why do married people get legal and tax advantages????"

Pick a fight with someone else. Whatever rights there are, everyone has to have equal access to them. Want to do away with those rights for EVERYONE? Be my guest.

"I want you to be able to have the learning experience and emotional work out that can only be gotten from taking a perfectly good relationship and applying a contract to it...in other words I would fight for your right to get married. Would you fight for me...and other single people who are financially penalized because we don't choose to be married?"

I fight for everyone to have equal access to the same rights and privileges.

[RichGirl]

33. You're wrong...

From day one and no mandate, Bush and the republicans did exactly what they wanted without any regard to anyone elses views and ideas. He stubbornly steam rolled us into a war and a collapsed economy and...he and Cheneys response to people disagreeing was "so what". The republican party owned patriotism, we didn't have an American flag, the stars and stripes was the republicans flag and we found out that there was the "real America" where they only believe in conservative views and values...and the rest of us who don't matter, weren't considered or listened too. Now....you want Obama to to the same thing. You want all liberals, only liberal views considered or listened to or represented, democratic inauguration, etc....doesn't sound like change to me. Just the flip side of the same coin.

The republicans wanted a red America and democrats now want a blue America...fortunately our new president wants a UNITED America.

My choice is to trust Obama, not blindly, but because I have read both his books, listened to him for four years, and more importantly...HEARD HIM.

[Robb]

30. Very interesting on point 3 in particular

...When you want to get cockroaches to disappear, you turn the light on.

I must think upon all this.

[wildonion]

35. The tempest in a teapot is alive only in the virtual world of the pentulant disagreeables

There is a good thing -- it shows that "identity" politics is pretty much dead, & Obama has & will continue to do well by ignoring the self-inflated virtual opinion makers on the internet.

Given that so many on the "left" were hypo-critical of Obama from the beginning, he can continue to ignore the virtuals w/ their disagreeable style and constantly changing 1-note, absolutist politics

(It's FISA! no, It's the Bailout! no, it's the Auto Bailout! no, It's Rick Warren! that shows Obama is as bad as Hitler! LET'S IMPEACH'EM!!!)

Because ---> http://ithoughtobamawouldgetmelaid.com/index.php3

Further sarcasm alert for those further intelligence impaired

:sarcasm:

[Taverner]

37. I agree with you on this one

However, I have to warn that there is a difference between "holding feet to the fire" and simply pulling a circular firing squad

Keeping the anger alive and protesting in some way during the inauguration is good. This is holding feet to the fire. This is sending a message to Obama that homophobic pandering will not be tolerated.

Simply writing Obama off as the enemy is stupid, ignorant and circular firing squad material.

[uponit7771]

38. K&R, Warren has been on the defensive since the spot light has show on him. He's a bigot that tries

...to stay moderate but comes off more of a fundie nut since Obama has invited him.

I'm not happy at all with Obama choosing someone who uses God as an excuse to be a bigot but pray the spot light shows how much of a jerk he is on gay rights issues.

[rockymountaindem]

40. Hopefully it will also remind us that we can't count on Obama to do the right thing all the time

and that we're going to have to keep asserting ourselves if we're going to get what we want.