I've had a change of heart

[Joe the Revelator]

I don't know. Maybe it was spending the better part of late last night reading about the Gay Rights movement (thanks Harvey Milk trailer for spurring that), maybe it was reading more about Rick Warren's non-Gay Rights stances (Hey Rick, I hope everyone in your family gets Parkinson's, you stem cell hating bastard), or maybe it just took me awhile to be able to objectively say "Obama Fucked this one up".




Now thats not to say that I think Obama is going to support limitations on Stem Cells and putting the LGBT community on the far back burner. That hasn't changed at all. This is still a 3 minute prayer. I still understand the politics of it, and I think that Obama is smart to keep an eye looking at 2012. But it was still wrong. He could have picked another asshole evangelical, with a lower profile to lead the prayer. Hell, he could have had a committee of Jews,Muslims and Christians share the invocation. The point is he made the wrong choice. I think he's going to be a great President, but I'm disappointed he can be this calculating.

You all were right, bigotry and stupidity should not be rewarded with any type of honor.

[BlooInBloo]

1. I had no problem saying Obama fucked this up from the get-go....

While I minimize those who maximize Obama's fuck-up, I don't minimize the fuck-up itself.


I realize that's over the heads of 99% of likely readers, but I can't help that.

[Starry Messenger]

2. You are a good egg Wolsh.

k & r

[Joe the Revelator]

11. No i'm still an asshole, I just want to make sure that anyone who may think like me sometimes

understands that maybe its ok to say this is fucked.

[Starry Messenger]

14. Well, I've always had a good opinion of you.

For what that's worth. And I hope folks read your thread in the spirit of understanding. The Grinch pictures rock, too.

[BeFree]

32. I would have to agree

Quote:..."(Hey Rick, I hope everyone in your family gets Parkinson's,...

That is fucked.

Good thing you changed your mind about equal rights. It shows evolution, and some here say evolution can't happen, or that education won't change minds. (really, some say just that) You have proved them wrong.

[Joe the Revelator]

35. Hey I wish nothing but the absolute worse on those who stand in the way of cures and progress

I'll make no apologies for that.

[Dennis Donovan]

3. Recommended.

:thumbsup:

I hope President Obama realizes his grievous error and works EXTRA hard on ensuring EQUAL RIGHTS for ALL Americans!

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

4. I also think he'll be an excellent president, but abhor this move

Most of us on all sides of this thing really want Obama to do well.

[stop the bleeding]

5. Good post nt

[JohnnyLib2]

6. Y'know, these eye-opening, "aha" moments of realization really matter.

Glad to hear about yours. K & R

[polichick]

7. Let's hope Barack has one - and soon!

[mondo joe]

8. Wolsh, I wish I could hug you. NT

[No Elephants]

9. Believe it or not, there are evangelicals who are not assholes. The more vocal among them

usually get drummed out of whatever large group they belong to, but they exist. Point is, it is Obama's job to try to reconcile the political right with the political left. However, IMO, he should steer clear of trying to reconcile the religious right with religious moderates and the religious right. In that, I think he's dreaming. He would be better off trying to show people the wisdom of keeping church and state separate than he would be to try to convince them their pastor is wrong about the Bible.

Jefferson was not only orrect, but very wise, about keeping a wall of separation between government and religion. IMO, it's very regrettable that Obama seems inclined to ignore Jefferson on this one.

Politically, it is a bad move, too. Obama will probably never get the Dobsons or the Warrens in his camp, but he may well lose a lot of those on the left if he keeps making gaffes like this one. After Clinton (DOMA, don't ask, don't tell), we had Florida 2000, courtesy of those who voted for Nader. Nader and the Greens cost Obama Missouri this time. It could get worse.

[ruggerson]

10. ...

:thumbsup:

[jonnyblitz]

12. that's cool! seems like many of your ex-sidekicks in the apologist

world here on DU seem to be going off the deep end in the other direction today! good post! :thumbsup:

[immoderate]

13. You are mostly right, but maybe you reached the wrong conclusion.

You said: Now thats not to say that I think Obama is going to support limitations on Stem Cells and putting the LGBT community on the far back burner. That hasn't changed at all.

That is absolutely correct. What has changed is that Warren is on the defensive in a way that would not have happened if Obama had ignored him. He is being denounced and scolded every day for his bigoted views. Is it possible that people are underestimating Obama?

--IMM

[Joe the Revelator]

15. I had considered that, but it reminds me too much of "Football Homerism"

I'm a Redskins fan. Live and die with them. If you follow the NFL at all you know that they have sucked, really really hard, since 1991 or so.

Every year they have a dismal pre-season. Ever year you'll hear a staunch group of fans go on about how this year they WANT to suck during the Pre-season, because that way they will lull other teams into a false sense of security. By being so god-awful, they are really showing true genius. It never works out that way,they always just suck.

Now, again, I don't think that Obama is going to "suck" as a President. But I also don't think that he's trying to pull the okie-doke here with the invocation.

[immoderate]

22. As a Giant fan, I reserve most of my hostility for the Cowboys.

And like you, I don't buy that "lose the exhibition games to sucker our opponents" strategy. No team can afford to spend their pre-season concentrating on what they know doesn't work.

What I do think is that Obama is smart enough to think he was not risking anything. I think his initial calculation was to "pull Warren out of position" and thereby open a lane. What I think he got is Warren being pummeled from all sides, and I am enjoying it. I am in sympathy with the gays, and as an atheist myself, I'm not happy with the whole invocation nonsense.

What I'm saying here is plausible though. The effect of all this is that Warren is taking shots like never before, and it's continual. And as you say, gays and stem cells are not losing anything. Our argument is whether Obama foresaw this. Hmmm.

--IMM

[DevonRex]

20. I think it's an unintended consequence. Nevertheless it's good that

Warren and people like him are exposed for what they really are.

I think Obama thought this was a way to show he could reach out to evangelicals. And like the majority of the country, Obama probably didn't know the extent of Warren's fanatacism.

It may be too late for the invitation to be withdrawn. And there may never be a remedy for the all the harm that has been done.

In my opinion, Obama needs to utilize a good chunk of his inauguration speech to address the hate and bigotry that GLBTs face. If he can give a speech on this issue like he did on the race issue, I will be proud of him and it could really make a difference. He has the ability to do it and I believe he has the desire to do it.

I think he probably didn't want to do this on inauguration day, thinking this would be a celebration of unity. But he may have left himself no other choice. I just hope that if it happens, the message isn't drowned out by infighting between Warren people and everybody else.

[immoderate]

26. I'm sure Obama will not directly insult Warren at the inauguration.

And I think that he must have been aware of all of Warren's bigotry. Consider that he did not get to where he is by making mistakes like that.

I think Obama's original thrust was to throw Warren off balance. And what he got was Warren being exposed and attacked from all quarters continually. Consider that every attack is of the form: "How could a worthy designate such as Obama entertain such a piece of shit as Warren?" LOL. And he doesn't have say a word, except to reiterate his inclusiveness.

--IMM

[No Elephants]

23. You are not seriously suggesting that Obama picked Warren with the intention that we protest the

invitation and expose Warren for what he is?

LOL. Obama invited Warren as part of the re-elect Obama 2012 campaign. He never expected this outcry. If you think otherwise, you are in deep denial.

[immoderate]

29. Not exactly.

I think Obama's initial expectation was that it would throw Warren off balance. I think the furor and constant denunciation is a bonus. It's put Warren on the defensive, but not Obama, he's "just reaching out."

Did Obama foresee this possibility? That's a good question. Is he the type of person who tries to consider all the eventualities? You don't think it was ever brought up in discussion that, "this will really piss off our base, and they will go nuts!" Nah, no one could have thought of that. :)

--IMM

[immoderate]

39. Have you seen the news that Warren is scrubbing his website of homophobic content?

I'm thinking that vindicates my view.

--IMM

[last1standing]

16. Thank you, Wolsh.

Many of us in the GLBT community are angry beyond words over this insult, as you know. For me it has shattered a trust that I have had for the president elect, since the primaries, to do the right thing. It colors my beliefs on his future moves. I know that Obama will be better than McCain would have been on every level, but on the matter of my human rights, Obama could, and should, be better.

Still, I don't think you should quit supporting him, and I'm sure you're not going to. The country as a whole will be a happier place with him in charge. Its just that there will still be a group of us who cannot fully join in that joy.

[DevonRex]

17. Obama definitely fucked up. Hopefully the more Warren isinterviewed and

the more nutty hateful things he says, the easier it will be to give him the boot. I'm really, really hoping for that.

For those of us who aren't religious, we've been ignoring hateful bigots saying prayers forever. Most even mainstream churches still have that anti-gay thing going on.

I attended a Methodist church just to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity stuff. The church builds several houses a year. I considered that to be a worthwhile thing. And they have lots of different GLBT groups, from fellowship to activism. I even went down to protest Focus on the Family with them years back, when we had our own mess with anti-gay legislation.

In the end, I was very, very glad to see that the individual church was pro-gay and for full civil rights for the GLBT community, BUT the denomination still says homosexuality is a sin and does NOT support gay marriage. Sadly, I had to find another way to help with Habitat houses.

For the record, I have a serious immunodeficiency, so mostly all I could do was make lots of chicken fingers and potato salad and take them gallons of gatorade and water. But it was appreciated.

[yardwork]

18. Thank you.

Actually, I don't even care whether people think this a mistake or not. I just wish they'd stop posting nasty things about gay people on this forum.

[Jamastiene]

19. Thank you.

[ronnykmarshall]

21. Thanks Wolsh.

Go see "MILK" I hear it's fantastic.

[Joe the Revelator]

24. Whats the deal with it opening in a wider release?

I'm in a suburb of Atlanta, and normally we get most smaller run movies. For some reason (deep south?) Milk is only playing at 2 art house type theaters, both in strange (far) parts of town. I know its in limited release, but AMC should be carrying it, I would think.

[ronnykmarshall]

27. Really?

I'm suprised. Maybe after the first of the year. But you'd think near Alanta it would be playing.

[Joe the Revelator]

28. Really

The wife and I were going to go see it late last night (the trailer, as you can tell, is very persuasive)and when I looked up locations it wasn't playing at any of the major theaters (AMC, REGAL) anywhere in a 50 mile radius of me, which includes all of Metro Atlanta. Same thing with today.

[EFerrari]

25. K&R

:)

[Jennicut]

30. Wolsh,I have always liked you

I am way disappointed in Obama over this though I do think he will make a very good president over all.
I think I saw some of the arguing you got into with some of the other posters as not really constructive on your part AND their part. We almost all agree on DU in some way this was wrong by Obama but not all of us are willing to drop all Obama like a fireball and say why bother with him.

[TankLV]

31. Thank you from my heart...

Your words mean a lot...

[IndianaJones]

33. excellent post. nt.

[sundog]

34. you get it

that's all :)

[Rowdyboy]

36. Thank you....When you read Rick Warrens actual words it becomes very hard to defend....

I think Obama is going to be a great president but this move is stupid, wrong, and beneath him. For me its like being kicked in the balls by the person you considered your best friend. It hurts physically but also it hurts knowing you can't trust the person you want to trust the most.

I responded to your thread last night in anger and I'm sorry. You have always been one of the "good guys" here and I appreciate that. But sometimes things hit too close to home and this is one of those times. I'm really sorry he made this decision. It wasn't necessary.

[grantcart]

37. big fuck up still a great President to be

FDR Kennedy Lincoln all had really great fuck ups.


Our reacting helps him process it - its part of the process

[Divine Discontent]

38. thank you Wolsh. nice thought process. eom

[CTyankee]

40. Wolsh, can I just say, hindsight beats all? We have the revelation today that

Warren has scrubbed his website of all the harsh stuff about gays.

I am pretty sure Obama demanded this of Warren and a precondition of his giving the invocation. But Warren did it.

OK, maybe it's a result of "reaching out", maybe not. We don't know. Why don't we wait and see...?