Warren Hate. Here's the elephant in room:

[denem]

In her insightful OP, Sarah Ibarruri notes" "WARREN HAS SAID THAT ONLY FIVE ISSUES ARE "NON-NEGOTIABLE" - his opposition to abortion, stem-cell research, cloning, gay rights and euthanasia".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8017838&mesg_id=8017838

The elephant in the room here is that Warren's "non-negotiables" are lock step identical with the 'official' teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Certainly some priests may take a more ambiguous or contrary position, but if ever an organization enforces doctrinal purity on it's senior clergy, it's the Vatican.

So, suppose say a President Elect wanted a Catholic bishop or cardinal to give the invocation, you'd get Warren's bigotry. The only difference I can think of is that Catholic bishops are less like to invoke pedophilia these days.

So there it is. 24% of Americans identify as Roman Catholics. What every the lay people think, choose a bishop, cardinal or senior priest, and you get Warren.

The point is Warren is hardly sui generis. He's catholic on his five non-negotiables, whatever language he uses.

[doc03]

1. He is going to talk for 2 1/2 minutes, give

it a rest.

[marylanddem]

6. Those two and one half minutes set the tone for everything.

that's why millions of Americans will feel EXcluded by this horrendous choice & will not share what should have been a triumphant
moment in American history.

[Fearless]

45. If those 2 1/2 minutes set the tone...

I owe you a coke.

[bevoette]

62. disagree. i couldn't tell you even one line from a prior invocation, even when my candidate won (nm)

[mondo joe]

24. And how much airtime does he get out of it on TV and newspapers?

How much more exposure than he's ever had before, with Obama's seal of approval?

[doc03]

35. Well he will get more attention now since

it caused such a fuss, who's fault is that? That's like when the right wingers make a big deal about a movie, twice as many people go see it because of all the free publicity they gave it.

[mondo joe]

46. DU doesn't have that kind of power. But if Obama didn't choose him, there'd

be no issue.

And you didn't answer the question.

[avaistheone1]

2. Not every Catholic priest preaches the gay venom of the Vatican.

The Vatican might like all the priests to be in lock step with them. However, all priests are not.

[denem]

4. Name a bishop or cardinal who does not?

[avaistheone1]

11. I have no idea. I don't follow the Catholic Church that closely. BUT,

Obama certainly could choose a Catholic gay friendly priest to do the invocation. There is no need for a bishop or a cardinal to do the job. It is not like Obama is being ordinated into the priesthood or something.

[noamnety]

12. Bishop Gumbleton. (nt)

[denem]

15. Rome Forces Homosexual Activist Bishop Gumbleton to Resign

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/jan/06012602.html

The Vatican brooks no dissent. Speak out and it's only a matter of time.

[noamnety]

26. Yep, but he stayed in his position until 2006

which was pretty recent. :)

His name came to mind because he's local in my area. There are others who have the guts to speak out.

And there are some who hold the same views as Bishop Gumbleton but don't speak out in order to protect their position as priests.

And then there is that third category that latches onto the bigotry of their church and makes themselves a vocal spokesperson for that bigotry. That's the group Obama has opted to honor and give voice to.

[LWolf]

51. Arch Bishop Bernard Price.

Of course, he's not a Roman Catholic, but a mar thoma orthodox catholic, a branch of catholicism based in India, with eastern and oriental influences.

He's the head of the interfaith council where I used to live, and I attended some of the interfaith services. He was well known for supporting and defending all faiths, regardless of their doctrinal differences.

[EFerrari]

5. And not all Catholics vote those issues. n/t

[Pirate Smile]

9. That is true. Obama won Catholics.

[EFerrari]

13. I may be wrong and I sure am lapsed but it seems as though

most Catholics don't prescribe for others as much as other Christian groups do whose organizations hold the same positions.

?

[MH1]

14. The Catholic Church in my town does.

Prescribe that people better pay attention to those 5 non-negotiables when they vote, that is. As in, "you know it would be a sin to vote for someone who supports abortion."

Maybe not all Catholic churches do. But since I've been paying attention, the ones near me always have played it that way. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.

[EFerrari]

17. The Church does but do the parishioners? Maybe I've just been out of the culture too long. n/t

[MH1]

37. No, not the parishioners necessarily

But actually in my precinct, where the church is located, and which is majority Catholic, it is also heavily Republican. I've met some Dems who go to that church and they are annoyed about it, but overall I'm guessing that most of the congregation is happy to follow the priest's lead.

[avaistheone1]

52. There are lots of Catholics who do not follow the church's teachings on

homosexuality, or on birth control among other matters.

[Midlodemocrat]

18. You would be right.

Many, many Catholics 'shop around' until they find a church with a pastor who will preach things that matter to them. Poverty, ending the war, etc.

Not every Catholic Church 'preaches' what the Vatican instructs.

[EFerrari]

29. I just don't remember Catholic acquaintances being very pushy with me

over anything in the same way that other practitioners have been. It's more of a "beat yourself up" thing than a "beat your neighbor up" thing.

lol

(I know, I'm already going straight to hell. :) )

[Pirate Smile]

27. My kids go to a Catholic school and most of the teachers (they are Catholic) were for Obama.

I'm used to not agreeing with large segments of the Catholic Church's orthodox and don't think a thing about it. Neither do the Catholics I know. Maybe that is why a Pastor or Priest leading a prayer while I know I don't agree with him on A LOT of issues just seems like standard operating procedure - take what you can use and disregard the rest.

[EFerrari]

36. That's what I remember, too. The Church hierarchy is sort of like the government

(and they were in a lot of place for hundreds of years) and that's about how they are mostly rated by parishioners.

[Pirate Smile]

47. I don't know any Catholics who follow or believe something because the church tells them to. My

in-laws are Republicans. My Mom's side are all Democrats. The Republicans don't buy into the church's teachings on the death penalty, etc. The Democrats don't buy into the church on abortion, homosexuality, etc. People follow their own conscience in my experience.

edit to add - here's the shocker - the Republicans are rich. Hmmm. Mostly, I think it is TAXES that they focus on.

[No Elephants]

55. I know plenty of Catholics who follow and believe things bc the church tells

them, too. I live in Massachusetts, the site of a lot of the high profile pedophile priest cases. I even had a couple of parishioners tell me that 11 boys are not molested. They know what they are doing, meaning a consensual relationship, no undue influence by the priests, etc. I also know plenty of fundamentalists who believe things bc their pastor tells them. And I know people of all faiths who decide for themselves. I really think it is about the individual.

[No Elephants]

38. In Massachusetts in 2004, they sent kids home from Catholic school with notes to their parents not t

vote for Kerry because he was pro-choice and there are Catholic priests who will not give communion to anyone who is pro-choice. The same bunch is anti-gay, although some of them have covered for pedophiles. They have also concluded that priest who molested adolescent boys were not pedophiles, but homosexuals. So, again, it depends upon the person, not the denominaiton or the religion.

[EFerrari]

41. Maybe. I've never had a bunch of Catholics knock on my door, though.

See what I mean? These different groups have their own cultures. Sure, the individual decision makers shape some things; the culture itself does, too.

[No Elephants]

54. ? I've never had anyone but one Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door.

[Captain Hilts]

7. I know some very crunchy Catholic priests. nt

[AntiFascist]

3. Which is precisely why Obama appears to be kowtowing to religious power

This seems to be some sort rite of passage to the presidency.

[give-me-liberty]

39. are we talking about the catholic church which has a HUGE PEDOPHILIA PROBLEM?

jeezuz... folks... that's what we've reduced the LGBT community too..

begging to NOT have 2 minutes of a day they earned, inauguration day celebration, in defense of the same catholic church that sends their priests with little boy sex addiction problems to New Mexico to learn even better ways to abuse little boys?

come on... seriously...

thanks for post antifascist.. you sure brought out the posters on this one....

[cbc5g]

8. 52% of voters in California appear to be bigoted as well

So this problem is widespread

[Solon]

10. Your point? The Catholic Church can go piss up a rope for all I care. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

16. Oh, FFS. What a stupid post.

Catholics went overwhelmingly for Obama, jackass. And Catholics are far more tolerant than Warren.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

19. Tolerance

You are right, Catholics are far more tolerant than Warren, but it seems like they are more tolerant than Obama crucifiers on this site.

[denem]

20. But you still couldn't have a Catholic and avoid Warren's views

whether or not individual lay Catholics voted for Obama or not.

[mondo joe]

21. Yes, you could. Being catholic doesn't = equating gays with child molesters.

[No Elephants]

44. Actually, the church claims most of its very own child molesters were really gay, not pedophiles.

[Midlodemocrat]

50. Completely false and a disgusting thing to post. You should be banned for that.

The Church has never said anything of the kind.

[No Elephants]

56. Sorry, you are wrong. I have heard at least 2 priests on ETWN say that and I don't even .

watch it very often. And you might check out some of these articles. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLA_enUS290US291&q=priest+homosexual+pedophile

BTW, does DU ban for posts about religion?

[Midlodemocrat]

25. Bullshit. You are completely and utterly full of it.

But you knew that when you posted this crap. :puke:

[avaistheone1]

30. That's ridiculous. You could have a gay- friendly Catholic priest do the invocation.

There is no need for a bishop or a cardinal to do this task.

There are many gay priests, and there are many gay Catholics.

[Solon]

33. BS, My Mom's a Catholic, and supports Same Sex Marriage and is Pro-Choice...

Call her non-practicing, or lapsed, or whatnot, but she doesn't agree with the church on these issues, and quite a few Catholics are like that, not all, not even most, but a significant minority.

[No Elephants]

SOME are. Some aren't.

[mondo joe]

22. It's not just that Warren is against marriage. It's his deep involvement with Prop8, and his

equation of gays with child molesters.

Got it?

[rug]

23. The difference is gay people can join the Catholic Church.

[No Elephants]

43. But, doctrine is that gays having sex is mortal sin. If they are willing to be celibate, no

problem. Same thing for Warren, though

[rug]

48. No, at Saddleback you can't join or participate if you're active.

The Catholic Church, while opposing what it considers to be sins, acknowledges that all sin and still offers a place.

Can't take Communion though.

[No Elephants]

58. You seem to have misread or misunderstood my post. I said that, Catholics consider gay sex a mortal

sin, but celibate gays are no problem for either the Catholic Church or Rick. I never disagreed that they could not join Rick's church if they were active. Hope that's clearer for you.

[polichick]

28. imo both Catholicism and Fundie Christianity are a long way from what Jesus had in mind.

[Midlodemocrat]

32. Really? Apparently you don't know anything about Catholic

Charities, then, correct? The largest charity in the world? Right?

[polichick]

40. I don't think Jesus meant to create a top-down organization run from a place...

...like the Vatican ~ his words show a grassroots orientation.

[Midlodemocrat]

49. Um, okay. Way to not address my comment.

:eyes:

[polichick]

53. Doesn't matter to me whether the church supports charities - that wasn't my point.

[polichick]

59. To clarify my point:

Here's a grassroots kind of guy teaching people to find "the kingdom of God within" and we end up with fundie mega-churches and the Catholic kingdom, among other top-down big-daddy control establishments. I don't think it's what Jesus had in mind.

[No Elephants]

34. Not all Catholics are alike, nor are all fundamentalists. There is a strain of "Christianity" which

concerns itself with judging, condemning and trying to impose its beliefs on others by having them enacted into law. Some Catholicas, fundamentalists and evangelicals are like that. And you can probably find some like that in every denomination and religion, including Orthodox Judaism.

[polichick]

42. True - and I have definitely known some very inspiring Christians.

[polichick]

60. What I really meant by that post is...

Here's a grassroots kind of guy teaching people to find "the kingdom of God within" and we end up with fundie mega-churches and the Catholic kingdom, among other top-down big-daddy control establishments. I don't think it's what Jesus had in mind.

[caraher]

31. Big difference: the sheer idiocy of Warren's statements

Lots of religious folks are against gay marriage, but Warren kicks it up a notch comparing gay marriage to incest or, incredibly, marrying a pizza. I can cut someone a break to some degree for simply not being ready to think logically and fairly about marriage, but this clown is worse than the Vatican because of his readiness to trot out absurd and insulting analogies. It goes beyond simple ignorance into the realm of hatred.

[grantcart]

57. So we can negotiate on whether Michael Schiavo is a Nazi?

1) Abortion - Fuck you

2) Stem Cell Fuck you

3) Cloning - Nobody is even talking about this straw man so Fuck you

4) Gay Rights - Fuck You and I hope that all of your grand children are gay

5) Euthanasia - I hope that you get Parkinsons that is treatable with stem cells and that your condition is so severe and progresses so quickly that you don't have time to redo your "living will" and that you are confined into a bed living an extra ordinary long life somewhere into the mid 100s and that the only rationale thought that you can form is a repeating thread that goes something like

"Boy am I fucked" "All I want to do is Die" "Boy am I fucked" "Am I still lying in my own filth?" "Boy am I fucked" "Will somebody get me a lawyer" Boy am I fucked".

[PassingFair]

61. It's only OK to slam fundies and Mormons here at DU.

And sometimes Scientologists.

All other religions are off limits.

Jeez.

:eyes: