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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 05:21 AM
Original message
Rec If You Dont Know Everything and Aren't Perfect
Who is Divisive? Obama? Warren? Or Us?

As I read over the blogs and comments at a variety of different liberal blogs, I am struck by how quickly we have divided. Many post and comments appear to be attempts at being "correct" about what this means or why it is happening. Some people felt intimidated to express themselves. Really? Common liberals.

I will go first. I don't know why Obama made this choice, what it means, or why it is happening. Because I am not him. I have a multiple ideas that seem reasonable but none of them are new, and I guess I could be wrong. What I would like address is the source of division.

The division is within us, it has always been there. We could have responded to the Warren pick with unity. All "progressives" could have resoundingly rejected and condemned this pick. Correspondingly, “progressives” could have expressed our differences in a way that preserved unity. We could have, but we didn't.

Look, none of us are completely correct about this issue, own it, have suffered the most, or conducted ourselves perfectly. These are a series of questions that I have heard my friends express, read in post, or thought about while reading post. Think about some questions, share a question with others. Maybe, don’t try to answer them right away. But think about them. Is there just one answer for all these questions. Is it that simple. If it is that simple, then why are we struggling with it?

How is our behavior living up to the liberal idea's that we believe in? Name one person whose actions have such significant power over us that our behavior is really their fault? How should we feel about our general level of sensitivity?

If you are heterosexual and are asking others to "calm down" or "stop trashing Obama", then you are asking someone to modify themselves in an environment that is supposed to be supportive and progressive. It is symptomatic of the negative experiences that homosexuals have in heterosexual culture on a daily basis. Do you think that it might be more compassionate to for you to not say it? Do you think maybe you should modify yourself to make others feel more comfortable? Or is that what other people are supposed to do?

How often do you think about modifying yourself to make others feel more comfortable? If you are modifying yourself to make others feel more comfortable, would that be frustrating? Is frustration the only emotion you might feel? Is the fact that you don't instantly think about this "modifying", a form of prejudice? Who should have to make others feel comfortable and when? Should we expect others to make us feel comfortable? Is that just kind of the "normal" way things go?

If you are Homosexual and you are "telling people to calm down", is that better or worst? Does homosexual status make it ok. Do others feel betrayed? If another homosexual honestly feels that others should "calm down", should they modify themselves and not express it?

Why are we announcing our sexual orientation? If I tell you I am gay, is it really true? Can you confirm it? Might others feel that some are using this announcement to express things they could not, or would not, otherwise say?

If I am gay, and others know it to be true, because we talk all the time on these blogs, or maybe have meet in person, does that make it better?

Is this issue only, or primarily about sexual orientation? Do some people "get it" and others "just don't"? Who gets it more? Is it gays in California? Is that who gets it more?

Does the experience of not being able to walk down certain streets holding your same-sex partners hand, without threat of violence, mean that your pain is the worst?

OR

Is it the person in Mississippi, who has never enjoyed a stroll with their same-sex partner, who has experienced the most pain? Do we think about same-sex partners in Mississippi or Alabama, who are isolated, afraid to log on to one of these websites because someone might catch them doing it?

Is it our level of pain or the frequency of painful experiences the measure of whether we get it or don't get it? Is that healthy? If it is not, what might be a better measure of whether we get it or do not get it? Should we be trying to measure levels of understanding?

What should we be trying to do?

Is there a gay community and then supporters and allies? Do labels such as supporters and allies marginalized individuals? Are supporters and allies second class movement members? If a straight person does not understand what it is like to be gay, then do gay individuals understand what it is like to be a straight supporter? Is it important to understand what it is like to be a straight supporter? If straight supporters, who do not understand what it is like to be gay, fail to understand where another is coming from-deserve threats of exile?

What sacrifices do straight supporters make? If a straight supporter is violently attacked because they are a supporter, is that a hate crime? Do cultural norms regarding masculinity create unique strains for male supporters?

Are all those who we might label “social conservatives”, “fundamentalists”, or “right-wingers” evil and hateful? Children too? Are you sure we are going to get this right? Is this different than “Islamic Fascism”, “Terrorist”, and “Abortionist”? Will they ever change? Why did so many other religious practices, beliefs, ideas, values, or rituals change?



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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. !
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. .
:D
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rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. That emoticon is hilarious and should be added to official DU repetoire! n/t
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very thought provoking!
K & R!
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. A Lot Of Really Good Questions
Welcome to DU

K&R
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Might be TOO many really good questions!
:)
Just when you think you have the answer to one, the next one comes up and kicks you in the @ss! :rofl:
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
41. Thanks, about the best compliment I could have received
That was what I was going for. Because that was the experience I had. I would think I had come up with some answer and a friend or something I read in a blog would make me question that answer. Figured I would pass on some of the cognitive dissonance.
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. We are all different and we have different views.
If I'm in a room with 10 democrats, there won't be two people in the room who agree on everything. If we continue to focus on our difference, instead of finding common ground, which is what Obama wants to do...we are doomed. It's that simple.

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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. And it is alright to disagree with one another,
but attacking each other is not constructive for anyone. I understand the anger, but I don't always understand how that anger is being directed. I'm truly glad the issue is being covered in the MSM, but I hate to see it divide people here.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. the older I get, the more I realize how little I actually know . . . n/t
.
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
40. I got my BA, I thought I knew everything, I got my MA and realized
that there were some things I did not know. I got my PHD and realized I did not know shit. Prof of mine told me this once. Never realized how true it was until I was standing there myself.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. Me? Not perfect???
Nooooo, say it ain't so!! :cry:





k&r :D
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can't ... in good conscience.... rec this thread

Sorry.


;-)
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Me either, only 1 out of 2.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wow!
Must be a lot of perfect know-it-alls at DU! Mine was only Rec.# 20 since early morning!
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sorry, I am perfect and superior to everyone!
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. I beg your pardon
Edited on Tue Dec-23-08 09:42 PM by rpannier
I am more perfect than you could ever hope to be

My perfection is so perfect that I perfectly eclipse your perfection...perfectly

Perfectly edited for spelling
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Perfection
misspells perfection? :shrug:
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Only -I- get to say who is a true Liberal, Progressive, Democrat, etc.
didn't you get the memo?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. I just got 489 PMs saying that this thread was for me


Ok ok I get it


Recommended
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. I don't know everything and I'm not perfect...
Sometimes I think I do/am, but usually I quickly get put in my place.
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zogtheobvious Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. United We Stand Divided We Fall
K & R man

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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R!
:applause:
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Engineer4Obama Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. Another excellent well thought out post
K&R
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't know everything. The only thing I know is that the rest of y'all are wrong.
I kid, I kid.

Recommended.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Except me. And, to be perfectly candid, your arguments don't bear up to close
examination. (j/k)
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. As far as I know, I do know everything there is to know.
:evilgrin:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. This was difficult to read. It may have been just the style. nt
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's called "dialogue" and "debate". A lot of people learn from engaging in it. I know I do. n/t
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Perfect response... you get an A n/t
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
27. None of us know as much as we think, that's why not that much that we've tried has worked.
What did work was electing Obama....even as most of us were fretting throughout the election shouting out directions.

I think many progressives share many goals, it's just how to get there.

Kind of like the Nation Magazine letting it be known that Obama shouldn't have picked so many Clinton people. The problem with what they know, is that they have never been President, ran for President, or ever reached a goal that changed this society. In otherwords, they really don't know what's better, they just think they do.

That's how most of us are. We think we know better, when we really have nothing to back that up.

Right now, many folks think they are benefitting their agenda with their attempts to holler out instructions to our New President in one way or another. But I believe these agendas are short term and short sighted and don't even begin to address the larger problems and how they can be resolved.

Thank goodness Obama is President, and not the rest of us who have convinced ourselves that we know everything better.

He's got his work cut out, that much I know. Let's just say, Wouldn't want to be him.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. Sorry. I can't rec this thread. I don't qualify.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
29. KnR
And welcome to DU. :hi:

Hekate


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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
30. I'm just doing this as a favor to you, imperfect one
I DO in fact know everything AND am the most perfect poly chick ever. I even have a plaque, or was that plague?
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Atheists aren't forgiven, just perfect
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
34. I'm Socratic.
;-)
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
35. Error: You can only recommend threads started in the last 24 hours.
Edited on Wed Dec-24-08 09:14 AM by tom_paine
So just a :kick: for an incredible post.

It is true. On an Anonymous website, anyone can be whatever they want, and only limited by their own conscience and honesty, not to mention their ability to carry-off the role they play.

It is something that everyone should ALWAYS keep in mind about interactions on the Internet.

And the rest of it...? I can only say what I have already said, although Swampie in Post #1 said it all with this:



Ya' blew my mind, buddy boy. You most surely did.

What a FINE addition you are and will be to DU (not that I am entitled in any way to speak for DU in an official capacity). Stick around. I await your next OP with eager anticipation.

:hi:

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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
36. It won't let me recommend anymore but I hope this kick will help
so more DUers will read it.
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GrannyK Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. Can't rec so kicking. n/t
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
38. It goes beyond the one issue...
It's not just the issue of "pray the gay away" but the issue of "pray the ___ away." Anyone who doesn't believe in the narrow views of fundamentalism can put themselves in that blank in "pray the ___ away."

What is actually more frightening than Barack Obama embracing that is people not seeing it.
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. So, Obama is embracing it and we are not seeing it?
Is that the answer you came up with. Really? You can do better than that. It is true, in my opinion that fundamentalism attempts to homogenize culture, however, how do we defeat that?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
39. Telling someone to "calm down" is almost always rude. Same as "get over yourself".
DU is what we make it. I enjoy a good heated discussion, but I think there is no place for rudeness. And it is very easy to fix rudeness on DU, ignore it. And I don't even mean the ignore button. I have never used the ignore button, don't even know where it is, but have often stopped responding to someone that I though was just picking a fight. I am not always successful at ignoring people and have been rude myself.

Not sure why I am writing this but my final words are: At least for today, will everyone just CALM DOWN (jk) and enjoy the day and the season. Spring is just around the corner.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
42. What if many of our responses are different?
I think that is the answer to your question. You want TOTAL outrage from the beginning. what if many people have a different view of HOW to approach this. Your argument is if we do NOT see things YOUR way, we are somehow "bad" or the host of other expletives I have seen from all or none thinkers. The issue has never been whether or not Warren is "good" as a person but rather how this may play out in the end.
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Exactly! nt
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