With this Warren Fiasco, I'm starting to wonder what I actually am.

[Mother Of Four]

These are my beliefs...

I believe all people deserve the same rights as everyone else.

To have the same rate of pay for the same work.
To marry whom they wish.
To see who they love with all their heart in the hospital.
To have freedom of religious expression, or lack thereof.
The ability to have children, and to raise them with love and affection.
The right to dignity in death.
The same treatment by law enforcement- protection no matter color, creed, gender or sexual orientation.
To have the chance at a good education.
Access to health care, treatment and prevention.


I also believe that it applies to everyone across the spectrum-

Men deserve credit for when they raise and care for their children, and should not be used as "meal tickets" by women who are serial wives. I hate watching television now, because many men are portrayed as less than what a man is. (I hate sitcoms)

Sexual Practices should never be an issue unless it harms another. (Edited, because I unintentionally offended someone by using the wrong word.)

Sexual Orientation should never be an issue AT ALL.

Money or lack thereof should never write your future for you.

"Political correctness" should never have been beaten as much as it is now, to where some are afraid to express themselves. Freedom of speech to me is important. My children and I debate on a regular basis, and I don't tell them what to believe. I just try to encourage them to have courtesy, and it's worked. I honestly feel that there can be no growth without civil and differing views being discussed.

If someone commits a crime, and is caught red handed- I believe the rights go both ways. No matter color, creed, gender or sexual orientation they should be held accountable.

I believe there are more glaring prejudices out there than people want to see, and many turn a willing blind eye to.
Mental disability
Physical disability
Facial deformation
Morbid obesity
Speech impediments


I grew up in a wonderfully diverse family. Adopted into it were blacks, hispanics, italians. Two of my uncles were homosexual, and I loved them dearly. As I've said before, they are both passed now. One died at home after being diagnosed with cancer, because he didn't want to be separated from his partner. The other passed away, after falling in love with a woman (Much to all of our shock) stating simply it wasn't her gender he loved, it was her soul.

There were many religious views: Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, Agnostic, Atheist and my Aunt is a naturist. There were differing views on abortion, marriage, the role of government, law, child care, work ethic...the list could go on forever.

I truly and with all my heart believe that EVERYONE deserves to be treated equally. That to elevate one, doesn't mean you need to stand on another. That if you wish respect, you must also be willing to give it. If you want your views heard, so that you can try to convince others you must also allow time to hear them as well no matter how much you disagree.

Only then will true and honest discourse happen. Only then will people begin to come together, and start learning from one another.

Some of the discourse of late has made my heart hurt. Name calling, unwillingness to actually DISCUSS.

All I know is that I'm a "Reformed Republican", but I have no idea where I fit in here. With all that's gone on here in the last week, I feel like a square peg in a round hole.

A little help would be appreciated.

[saracat]

1. I think you sound like a lovely person. But I also feel that bigotry in all its forms can no longer

I find I can no longer accept those who think I am of less worth because I am a women, who think I should be subservient. I have some in my family. I do not respect them and cannot give them equal respect because they do not respect me. I do not respect those that discriminate against my gay brothers and sisters and consider them less than persons. I do not respect those who are racists. They do not give equal respect so I do not feel an obligation to return it because to do so would compromise my beliefs.

[Adelante]

2. Thank you for this thoughtful OP nt

[Zuiderelle]

3. "Sexual Orientation should never be an issue unless it harms another." What?

I am offended by that sentence. What does sexual orientation have to do with HARMING ANOTHER? Why can't you just say that "Sexual Orientation should never be an issue" without the qualification on the end "unless it harms another?" That right there is one of the very root causes of the hatred against. For some reason, some people think that sexual orientation must sometimes harm another. How?

[David__77]

4. I think it was not intended in the way you take it.

We use "sexual orientation" only to refer to hetero- bi- or homosexuality. But some others less familiar with the term include various sex practices in the term, and could include things like perhaps dangerous sex practices, which, of course, are not an "orientation" per se.

[Mother Of Four]

7. Thanks-

I'll go edit the OP to reflect that.

[Zuiderelle]

10. I maintain that it's a bad way of expressing it then, and leads to bias against all of us.

A pedophile hurts others, and it is not exclusive to a certain sexual orientation. Someone who has AIDs and is dishonest with their partners hurts others, but it is not exclusive to a certain sexual orientation. Linking sexual ORIENTATION to dangerous sex practices or criminal ones is HURTFUL to us all.

[SuperTrouper]

12. I agree

[Mother Of Four]

13. I changed it-

I'm sorry it came out wrong :(

[Zuiderelle]

15. I don't think you understand my point. You should say "sexual orientation should not be an issue"

period. Changing it to "sexual practices" makes it worse. I am not defined by my sexual practices. I'm gay because I love a woman. Because I am unconditionally devoted and committed to a woman for life. Not because of any sexual practices.

[Mother Of Four]

20. I'm sorry-

I went back after reading this response and was going to edit it again, but doing so would compromise what I believe.


As my father would say this is a "If the shoe fits wear it" statement, obviously it doesn't fit you because you aren't hurting anyone at all. You are a person in love, living your life.

I'm not defined by my sexual practices either, unfortunately though there are people out there who ARE defined by them and use them to prey on the helpless, innocent or less fortunate. That is when it comes into play, and only when it comes into play.

[Zuiderelle]

22. But what do sexual practices have to do with the Warren issue?

These conversations haven't been about how awful Warren is because he doesn't approve of straight people's sexual practices. It's been because he doesn't approve of gay people, gay marriage, gay rights. You talking about sexual practices (or sexual orientation that harms another) diminishes the issue and makes it seem like something entirely different.

I don't think there is anyone here who would defend ANYONE who would use "sexual practices" to harm anyone or prey on the helpless, innocent or less fortunate. So, again, I don't understand what it has to do with your primary subject, which you seem to have intended to relate to the Warren conversations here.

[Mother Of Four]

24. Its not about Warren-

It's about the feelings that have come up while reading all these posts over the last while (A week maybe?)

The Warren thing was only the catalyst for how I'm feeling, which is out of sorts.

I read much more than I post, and there are many people I love to read. Seeing people attack each other, seeing people be hurt and feel left out in the cold, seeing most of who I love to read tear each other up- well it HURTS.

I'm an Alaskan who moved to a small town in NC. Needless to say I "don't fit in" here. I come to DU, to be with people who I thought saw the world like I do and it kills me to see all of this.

This board is my port in a storm so to speak, and now even this boat is being rocked worse than usual.

(Edited, spelling)

[Zuiderelle]

25. I understand. And I feel the same way.

DU has felt very foreign to me this past week, and not very welcoming. We could all use a bit of understanding for each other.

I do appreciate you changing the line in the OP. :hug:

[Mother Of Four]

26. ...

:hug: right back at you :)

[Mother Of Four]

6. Edited-

The person above me said it better than I did :)

[SuperTrouper]

8. I think that the post is referring to cases in which sexuality is used to

imposed itself on another human being, perhaps vulnerable or helpless...such as rape, pedophilia, sexual harassment on the job. I do not think the intention was to denigrate a specific group, just a comment on the physical or mental violence, horizontal (same class, same social position, same job level) or vertical (employer-employee, physician-medical assistant, lawyer-paralegal) that exists based on sexuality. I hope I did not make things more confusing with my convoluted comment.

[Mother Of Four]

11. Thank you-

That's what I meant :blush: I edited the OP to change the term orientation to practices.

[Zuiderelle]

14. And again, that has nothing to do with ORIENTATION. It has to do with individual acts.

Rapists, pedophiles and people who sexually harass are not exclusive to a sexual orientation, so saying that sexual orientation doesn't matter unless it harms another is a very loaded way of expressing it.

Instead one could say, sexuality, instead of sexual orientation, but it is still misleading since this thread seems to be inspired by the last days' conversations here in relation to gay marriage.

Of course no activity should be acceptable that harms others, and that has nothing to do with sexual orientation or gay rights. Putting that right in the middle of the OP makes it seem that the OP is trying to relate it. I don't know if she did it purposefully or not, all I'm doing is pointing out that doing that is quite harmful and insulting to us.

[Mother Of Four]

16. I've responded a few times -

I changed it. I was not my intention, and I'm actually embarrassed that I didn't catch it when I read over it myself.
I'm sorry that I upset you.

[Zuiderelle]

18. You didn't upset me. I'm trying to explain it to you.

You changed it to sexual practices, but that doesn't change what you said. I believe that you mean that gay people should be accepted. "Sexual practices" have very little to do with being gay. Most of us have no more interesting "sexual practices" than straight people. If you really mean to turn the conversation to people who engage in S&M or are promiscuous and have lots of partners, or who like to pay prostitutes to dress up like Catholic school girls, then ok, I can nearly understand you saying "if they don't harm another." But since you started out saying "sexual orientation" I'm nearly certain that you really did mean that sexual orientation shouldn't matter... period.

My point is that some people, Warren namely, equate homosexuality with pedophilia and incest, things that actually DO harm others. Following "sexual orientiation shouldn't matter" with "unless it harms another" insinuates that it is an issue, and that those beliefs have some foundation.

I'm not saying that YOU feel that way, I'm just trying to explain why it's harmful to us for anyone to use that language.

[Mother Of Four]

21. Ok I understand then-

Thank you for this post, I was sitting here wondering how I could get across what I meant...

I will do my utmost not to use that phrase in the future.

:hug:

[Zuiderelle]

23. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

And I appreciate your understanding me.

:hug:

[Yes We Did]

27. Self Delete

[Zuiderelle]

28. The OP understood my point and changed the language. I don't understand your hostility.

I didn't accept her apology? What? Please read a few posts here then, and see where we hugged. And please lay off me. The OP and I had a very constructive conversation. On a second edit, she added a new line saying that Sexual orientation should not matter at all. When I saw that, I thanked her.

This is how it originally was written:

Sexual Orientation should never be an issue unless it harms another.

And this is how it was changed at first:

Sexual Practices should never be an issue unless it harms another. (Edited, because I unintentionally offended someone by using the wrong word.)

And this is how it is now:

Sexual Practices should never be an issue unless it harms another. (Edited, because I unintentionally offended someone by using the wrong word.)

Sexual Orientation should never be an issue AT ALL.

Now, go away and leave me alone. Go fight with someone else. The OP and I are perfectly fine now.

[Yes We Did]

29. ""

[Zuiderelle]

30. I did not bully her. Our conversation was polite and constructive.

Your personal attack however, is not.

[Yes We Did]

32. ""

[Zuiderelle]

34. Saying that I'm bullying someone I'm not bullying and saying that I go around looking for things

to be offended by, and saying condescendingly that you "feel sorry for me" is indeed personally attacking me. The OP and I have found understanding and agreement. I don't understand what your issue with me is here. I didn't bully her into anything. I explained why her original wording is harmful and she got it. Apparently you don't.

[Yes We Did]

38. ""

[Zuiderelle]

43. I "don't get to go there" with you again?

:rofl: Man. You apparently have a vendetta against me. But, we've messed up this very well-intended thread enough, so I'm out of here.

[Yes We Did]

46. Beat you to the door. n/t

[Mother Of Four]

33. ...

Showing my support.

:hi:

[Zuiderelle]

36. Thank you. This is what keeps me coming to DU. People like you.

I hope I didn't come across as bullying you. I certainly didn't intend to. Coming to understanding with you heals a lot that's gone on here lately. I appreciate it. :pals:

[Mother Of Four]

41. I didn't feel bullied at all :)

One of my faults is that if I feel bullied, or pushed I dig in my heels.

As you can see that didn't happen here. :pals:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

31. Do you think sexual orientation can "harm another"?

Because that was the problem with the original post.

[Yes We Did]

35. That' is not what the OP meant.

and no, obviously. It may have been a poor choice of words, but the OP meant no harm. Everyone is just so quick to jump lately.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

37. And PelosiFan politely asked the OP to correct her mistake.

After many other threads that haven't been so GLBT-friendly, including referring to homosexuality as a "lifestyle," can you blame people for being jumpy?

[Mother Of Four]

39. Thats why I changed it-

It WAS a poor choice of words, Pelosifan didn't bully me. If I had felt bullied in the least I wouldn't have changed it at all.

What did happen, was an explanation of why the way it was phrased was damaging. Therefore, I changed it.

:shrug:

I do appreciate you wanting to defend, but please...read the exchange. I thought it was very constructive.

Much love.

[Yes We Did]

40. Perhaps my view of her is a bit Jaded.

Since you asked, I will lay off.

[Mother Of Four]

42. Thank you !

:hug:

[Yes We Did]

44. I wiped out my posts...

Perhaps I should have taken my own advice and not been so quick to jump.

[BeFree]

5. You are not alone

We all need to take a look at ourselves as though we are being seen through the eyes of another. It is a very hard thing to do, but if we are to make progress, it is something we must do.

[Marrah_G]

9. It has been a rough few weeks.

People are having difficulty separating criticism of a decision from bashing and therefore have felt the need to vigorously defend what they consider the PE's honor.

While in defense of the PE they have said some pretty hurtful, offensive and insulting things toward the group they feel is "attacking" their particular hero (this is not a koolaid drinker remark, lots of us have heros, including me).

This happened before in the primaries, we lost many longtime DUers and it is happening again now as more long time DUers pack their bags.

I would suggest to you that you are the right peg and this is the right hole. The hole is just slightly warped at the moment.

Stick around, hopefully, thing will get better.

Democrats are like cats......

Marrah

PS: I loved your OP- written from the heart

[JuniperLea]

17. Excellent OP

I think people are trying to be the "thought police" in this issue, and are demanding respect. You can't demand respect, and attempting to only hurts yourself. Respect is earned. We need to learn to live and let live... on both sides of this issue.

[Peacetrain]

19. Mother of Four, here is a cup of coffee for you..you sound like a wonderful

person, who fits in just fine! You stated a set of beliefs that will set your four children on the right road of life..

If you feel like you are traversing a mine field.. well welcome to the club. I think to be truthful we all do.. every blessed one of us. Oh there are one or two in every perspective, who are just looking to kneecap someone, but believe me, they go down like a house of cards when you confront them.

So be who you are, and be proud..You can be a voice of calm, and reason which is needed more than ever.

All that any of us want is to be valued for who we are. :donut:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

45. Sweet soul

just be you. And realize that everyone here at DU is not at the same point in their life's path. I would hope, however, that they share your ideals.