My people had it worse than yours!

[Yes We Did]

...Because they are my people.

That seems to be what I have been reading on here lately. However, we are so forgetful of those who had it the "worst the first." This country was essentially founded on genocide. Remember after all, it was the Native Americans who were butchered tribe by tribe and had their land stolen from them.

Now before I am tempted to get into my own personal diatribe, let me get to my point.

This country has a very long history inequality based on almost any and every factor you can imagine. Millions upon millions have suffered, and each group has had to deal with different types of struggles and inequality based on who they were, what they looked like, where they lived, and when in history it happened, or for that matter, continues to occur.

To this day there is still discrimination against every single group out there, perpetrated by some other group.

If you are:

Jewish
Fat
Old
Native American
Gay
White
Arabic
Atheist
Straight
Asian
Polish
Pregnant
Black
Young
Hispanic
Skinny
Insert yours here ____________

...you have been discriminated against to some degree in your life by someone DIFFERENT than you.

What is important is stopping it. What isn't important is trying to decide a pecking order of who has gotten it the worst. (which is why I tried to make my list as random as possible)

Discrimination of any kind, no matter the reasoning, is wrong. That applies to actually practicing it yourself, or by giving it a platform to be spoken. We all deserve to have equal rights, and no single person or group should have to suffer based on something they had no choice in deciding.

That applies if you are simply someone typing on a discussion board, someone walking down the street, with a group of friends, or... yes... the President of the United States.

As far as Warren... I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of us would have strongly preferred Obama choose someone else for the inaugural prayer; but he didn't. However Obama didn't pick Warren to go up there and rail against the GLBT community, or talk about how to defeat the "gay agenda".

He picked him to say a prayer; something many on this board are offended by in itself. As long as Warren sticks to that, saying a prayer, and doesn't start preaching "hate the gays" I am going to sit back and see what Obama does, and watch to see if his decision helps at all down the road. The man was smart enough to get elected when many of us were freaking out that he was screwing up. He told us he was going to govern from the center. He told us he would piss many of us off from time to time. So this really should come as no surprise. That doesn't mean you have to like it, but it does mean you (we) should have expected it. We were told all this from day one.

It was NEVER a secret.

Back to my main point...

Discrimination is a part of life, and until we achieve that mythical utopian existence the world has been struggling for, it is going to continue to exist. All we can do is continue to fight for equality and try to lend a sympathetic ear to our brothers and sisters, regardless of sex, race, age, sexual orientation, religion, and other appearances & beliefs, and help fight for equality wherever it is lacking.

That is something we can ALL to do.

[yardwork]

1. And guess who benefits from that kind of divisiveness. The majority.

Divide and conquer is a tactic as old as the hills.

[Yes We Did]

2. ?

[yardwork]

4. I'm agreeing with the point of your OP.

[Yes We Did]

6. K.

Just checking. :fistbump:

[JuniperLea]

8. That is precisely why these issues are trotted out every election cycle...

To divide and to conquer.

But you'll notice who does the trotting... the RW... and you notice who has been in charge for a very long time without actually changing anything... until now.

This is one reason I don't believe Prop 8 will hold. They need this wedge for further division... same with abortion.

Same goes for immigration. I can't think of one wedge issue that has actually changed and remained that way since Roe v Wade.

We need to keep fighting, but we need to remember who/what it is that we are actually fighting.

[racaulk]

11. Exactly right.

That's why we only hear the right make a fuss about "gay marriage" during the Summer and Fall of every even-numbered year.

[Yes We Did]

13. I hope that means...

They won't bring it up in 2009. Maybe we can get some stuff done.

[pnwmom]

72. You mean the 52% majority

comprised of females?

This is so confusing.

:shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

3. What a load of horseshit.

Few people have a problem with a prayer. What we have a problem with is giving a bigot like Warren ANY kind of platform, whether he explicitly states his bigoted ideas or not.

This idiot is full of vile homophobic, sexist and anti-Semitic ideas, and elevating him to such a large position via the invocation implicitly states that his thinking is not sufficiently disgusting enough to prevent his appearance.

[Yes We Did]

5. And I never said I agreed with it.

So, if you want to call bullshit on that, I'm fine with it. However my post is solid.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

7. Agreed with what?

Inviting Warren? Because you brushed it off as "just a prayer."

[Yes We Did]

Please don't quote me falsely.

I didn't write "just a prayer"

What I agreed to, as I stated in my OP, is that I don't think Obama should have chosen Warren.

Now, if all you can focus on is that... the Warren thing... then I don't have anything else to say to you. We agree he shouldn't be there. I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing.

I would also appreciate it if you took off the quotes, as it implies I actually said that.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

12. You wrote "He picked him to say a prayer."

So I understand the essence of what you said. It wasn't meant to be a direct quote.

Now, if all you can focus on is that... the Warren thing... then I don't have anything else to say to you. We agree he shouldn't be there. I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing.

Then why did you include it in there? This whole time, one group says Warren's just going to say a prayer, while the other group says it's about more than that (the symbolism of Warren appearing) -- that's what the Warren threads come down to.

The hierarchy-of-suffering posts is only a recent development, mostly meant to deflect criticism of the whole Warren appearance.

[Yes We Did]

15. I included it because I felt like it.

I included it as part of a greater point. Since you are unwilling to discuss the whole point, and remain focused on trying to have a pissing match, I'm done. Have a nice day.

[Yes We Did]

16. And whether or not it was meant to be...

It was a direct quote; an inaccurate direct quote.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

17. But one that conveyed what you meant.

I thought you didn't want to argue? :shrug:

[Yes We Did]

18. Merry Christmas.

God Bless You.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

20. Bless your heart.

[Chulanowa]

73. Don't sweat it

At this point, it's boiled down to a few diehards who's attitude is "you either agree with me totally or you want to shove gay people into an oven, you fucking Nazi"

[JuniperLea]

10. So, all the Atheists and Agnostics can go fuck themselves...

Because we are so few... and because we have a problem with a prayer in a government setting, we just have to eat it because your issues are so much more valid?

And now you are the idea police? The thought police? I think we all have enough to worry about with their vile actions to be worried about creating the thought police.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

14. I'm an atheist, too.

But I realize we're not going to be successful in stopping a prayer, and I'm much more offended by Warren giving the prayer, as opposed to a decent pastor.

[JuniperLea]

22. There's no such thing as a decent pastor...

And it's too bad so many give up so easily on something that should be a no-brainer.

[Yes We Did]

23. May I Ask...

What do you think happens when you die? I mean... I don't believe in organized religion, but if you go by science alone, there has to be something after you die, since we are essentially energy, and energy never stops; it just changes into another form.

Like I said, I don't believe in organized religion, or 99% of the bible for that matter, but I always have felt like there must be something else after we die; not necessarily a heaven/hell scenario, but... something.

If this is too personal, you don't have to answer, or you could send me a PM. I'm just looking to hear a new perspective.

[JuniperLea]

32. You are right that energy continues on...

No one has died and come back, so we really don't know for sure, but in my mind, our life energy becomes part of the bigger life energy that fuels... life:)

Religion has been used to create fear, control, and suffering. If there is a God, he/she is being bastardized.

I'll quote Black Sabbath here:

Won't you help me Mr. Jesus! Won't you help me if you can. When you see this world we live in, do you still believe in Man?

I was raised in a Fundy church, and the hypocrisy I found there for the first 15 years of life brought be happily to being Agnostic.

[awoke_in_2003]

33. "What do you think happens when you die?"

Used to be you decomposed and fertilized the earth. Of course now we bury people in underground concrete vaults in the 2nd largest waste of real estate (the 1st is golf courses :)) in the world.

[JuniperLea]

37. Yep... it should be...

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust, like in the old, pre-embalming fluid days:)

Have you ever visited a cemetery from the 18th century or later? All the graves are sunken... as it should be.

I've always wanted to be buried with my skin to the Earth, without chemicals. But for some strange reason ($$$$) that is illegal. I'd love to wind up being fertilizer for some lovely forest. Worm food.

[awoke_in_2003]

43. The closest way you can get...

in our society, is cremation. No waste of real estate, and ash makes a good fertilizer.

[JuniperLea]

47. Yep...

I'd rather leave the money not spent to my kids.

[The Doctor.]

67. My wife said she would be cremated and her ashes mixed with paint and used

in a painting.

I always thought that was pretty interesting.

[Lost-in-FL]

79. I imagine that "something" after you die...

is the same "something" before you were born.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

24. Jim Wallis and Joseph Lowery are two.

[Yes We Did]

25. I think the point was...

If you are an atheist, aren't ALL pastors supposed to be... well... you know... bad?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

26. If you're very dogmatic, sure.

But I'm not.

[Yes We Did]

27. Hmmmm...

So, do you think we just die, and that's it? Or do you think there is something... just something you don't know? Like I said upthread, I don't believe in organized religion, and don't take anything in the bible literally, but I think there just has to be something. I just don't know what.

If it's not to personal... can you expand on your beliefs?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

28. I don't believe in God, but I've been wrong before.

I'm assuming nothing happens after death, but no one on earth right now can say for sure.

[Yes We Did]

29. Well... I hope you're wrong again.

Seems like such a waste...

[RandomKoolzip]

80. No, it's not a waste. Life is great.

The short spans of our lives are, to me, constant, urgent reminders that we need to do good for others and ourselves HERE, while we're alive, because it's our only chance to do so. As an atheist, I firmly belive that once we die, there's nothing. That's it. Poof. So, knowing my time is running out, why waste any time? Roll up the sleeves and help out...

[JuniperLea]

40. How is that dogmatic? eom

[Starbucks Anarchist]

51. Assuming all pastors are bad b/c of one's atheism.

Which is what your post #22 seemed to imply.

[JuniperLea]

55. That's not what I'm saying

First, I don't believe the prayers of any religion belongs in any US Government ceremony.

Second, it's not just Atheists who are ignored in this, but also Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion or belief system you can mention that is NOT Christian.

All that said, most of the Christianity the world sees now is pure dogma. Jesus never taught us to hate, never taught us that we need to "change behavior" of others, never taught us that we need to change our laws to reflect Christian beliefs, etc. What he did teach is that people should treat each other as they would Jesus. That we should love all people and never, ever hate. That we should feed the hungry and clothe the poor. That we should give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and unto God what belongs to God... the strongest statement in favor of separation of church and state.

The preacher that actually espouses to the REAL teachings of Christ is a rare and precious person.

My knowledge of scripture is partially responsible for my Agnostic stance... that, and the hypocrisy I see in churches today.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

57. Your quote was "There's no such thing as a decent pastor."

[JuniperLea]

58. Not for this purpose...

There is no decent pastor for this purpose.

I once read a book about Zen Buddhism, written by a Jesuit Priest. He might be sensitive enough to the spirituality, or lack thereof, of the masses to be able to pull it off. Maybe not.

No pastor I've ever known, or known anything about is a decent pastor for this purpose.

[awoke_in_2003]

34. I am an atheist...

and I would not go there. My grandfather was a methodist minister, and I remember the phone calls at 3 in the morning because a loved one was sick or had died. And out the door he went to take care of them. Unfortunately, not everyone is strong enough to get through life without mythology.

[JuniperLea]

41. I have no problem with people who walk the talk

Sounds like your grandfather was living what Christ taught. I'm not sure Jesus was more than a wise man, but some of the things he allegedly said were wonderful. I have no problem with people living that wonderful side, even if it's mythology.

[awoke_in_2003]

45. Not sure whether existed

or, if he did, was just a wise man, but if all christians lived up to the teachings the preach this would be a much nicer country.

[JuniperLea]

48. Amen!

Pun intended:)

[JuniperLea]

38. Or... if you are Jewish... or Hindu... or Buddhist...

Why do we need a Christian prayer shoved down our throats? Don't I have the right to watch the inauguration of my president without having a dose of bearded cloud being mythology?

[JuniperLea]

36. In what respect, SA? eom

[stillcool]

30. that is not true...

isn't that part of the problem..all or nothing? Religion has been around for as long as people, all taking different forms. I understand spirituality to be the examination of my soul, and while I don't go to a church, or share what I believe with others, prayer and meditation are a part of my life, that doesn't harm you or anyone else. I've had many 'teachers' along the way. And they were very decent people.

[JuniperLea]

35. I'm sorry, that's not what I mean...

I love spiritual people, but religious people scare the hell out of me.

Prayer, in this instance, is an abomination to all who do not pray as Warren prays or believe as he believes. Why should we all be subjected to his prayers when not all of us believe as he does? Why not lead a silent meditation, or silent prayer, or just a silent moment of hope for the future of our new President? Why must it be tied to a Christian (and I use that term very, very loosely) preacher?

I am Agnostic, and I feel I'm a spiritual person, but having this forced upon us is just another sign that our country isn't going in a good direction.

[stillcool]

49. I think religion has always been a tool...

of the right wing, but their control of government is what has elevated the influence of religion into the public arena. I wonder how this guy Warren started out in life, what his beliefs were, and how much the influence of money and power has changed not what he believes, but what he sells.

[JuniperLea]

50. What he sells...

There's the important bit right there. I'd challenge him to show me where Jesus said anything about forcing or selling his views. Heck, I'd challenge him to show me where Jesus said anything about forcing religion on anyone.

[stillcool]

54. More bang for the buck...

building a dynasty on snake oil..I wonder how old that is?

[JuniperLea]

56. The first snake oil salesman was probably the brother...

Of the first prostitute:)

[treestar]

77. That's not really fair

Many an atheist is just as bigoted against the religious as vice versa.

[rvablue]

59. I believe 100% that atheists and agnostics, while they have LITTLE in common

should be able to say and do and believe whatever they want without dispargement. If I heard someone doing so to one of these individuals on DU or anywhere in society, I would openly and verbally condemn such intolerance.

Unfortunately, the same does not apply for me here on DU or in progressive society. Because I am Catholic and vehement condemnation of Catholics is tolerated and sometimes, cheerleaded.

[JuniperLea]

60. That's sad... you have the right to be Catholic

I have a good friend who is Catholic, and she walks the talk like nobody's business!

She gives to the poor, never misses mass, spends all her vacation time and money building houses with Habitat for Humanity. She's a lovely person, and part of her loveliness is because of her faith. She walks the talk, but never condemns others or holds herself above others or anything even close.

I stand by her, and I'll stand by you too.

As long as you aren't a butt about it:)

:hug:

[rvablue]

64. I won't be "a butt" about it if you won't! :) n/t

[JuniperLea]

65. Deal:) eom

[treestar]

76. Atheists aren't the ones complaining on DU over Warren

Yet they would seem to have equal cause.

And so would women/feminists, because he is not pro-choice.

[slackmaster]

9. Mennonite

I've forgiven Catholics for the crap they put us through.

[Captain Hilts]

19. Warren runs a 'for proit' church and is making BIG BUCKS off this and his message of hate.

I'm not gay, Catholic or Jewish, but I'm deeply offended on their behalf.

[Yes We Did]

21. I agree 100% n/t

[boppers]

31. A message worth kicking.

I don't think that the utopia is mythical, though. :)

[XemaSab]

39. You forgot FEMALE

x(

[JuniperLea]

44. Female Black Homosexuals...

Must be the strongest people on Earth. They certainly get the least respect. I may need to build a shrine...

[makinguphumans]

42. Fill in----------women.

[pipi_k]

46. Blondes!!!!

What with all the mean blonde jokes and everything I had to let my dark roots grow out

Nobody can imagine the trauma I had to endure as a blonde...


:cry:

[Leo The Cleo]

52. Just Because They Aren't The Same . . .

Not everything is the same. Each groups suffrage is different and carries it own set of issues. Does it make one's suffrage worse than another? Certainly not. However, it does make them different. I think the fact that people are unwilling to see the differences and admit the differences make it hard for people to set up in array under each other.

[bluedawg12]

53. Restriction of civil rights for a minority group is the issue .

You can trivialize it any way you want, it's still the issue.


"He told us he would piss many of us off from time to time"

Then we didn't disappoint him.

[Yes We Did]

61. All of the groups I listed can be minority groups...

depending on where you are at. I didn't trivialize anything. I was making a point, a point that none of it is alright. Perhaps you missed it.

[Engineer4Obama]

62. Straight White Protestant Men

We get blamed for everything.

:sarcasm:

[Yes We Did]

63. Especially if you live in Detroit. n/t

[Dammit Ann]

66. THE CENTER OF ALL THAT IS EVIL!

:sarcasm:

[treestar]

75. Well, one thing you can't claim is victim status

Yet many a straight white protestant man is a worker, not in complete control, and perhaps poorer than those who aren't.

That's why identity politics suck.

[The Doctor.]

68. The level of blind outrage here is fascinating.

Just amazing.

[progressoid]

69. "Insert yours here ____________ " NO SEX THREADS!!!

Insert yours here indeed!

[PDittie]

70. "Why, when I was a kid ..."

" ..we had to walk ten miles in the snow just to hear a bigot preacher give an invocation!"

[tbyg52]

81. Uphill.

Both ways. :hi:

[LostinVA]

71. I personally believe civil rights are civil rights, just as Dr. King did

None are more elevated or subordinate to another, because there's no way they CAN be, because saying so would make "that group" less than human. All rights and human struggles are One.

[treestar]

74. I remember two friends in college having that discussion

One was of Armenian descent and describing the Turkish genocide against the Armenians when the Jewish girl stopped her to say that the Jewish people had been treated badly in more places more often.

Something about it turned me off from victim politics. It was like "my group suffered more than yours" so aomehow "I should get more sympathy" which seems to lead to "you owe me, because you belong to a group that hasn't suffered as much as mine." Yet they were both equal, Americans in 1970s America, in no more danger than anyone else, and in less danger than many.

[mondo joe]

78. I'm with you up to the Warren points. On the whole, good job DemDog.

:-)