Has there been civil discourse on controversial issues on DU?

[wndycty]

Poll question: Has there been civil discourse on controversial issues on DU?

This Warren thing has driven home a very disturbing truth on DU, we (DU) are very poor at civil discourse. I just saw a thread on the issue that had 82 posts, when I clicked on it there were only 25 or so posts that weren't deleted.

I am opposed to Warren participating in the Inaugural and I'm pretty pissed off about it, however I find myself just a pissed off at the accusations that Obama is homophobic, he does not care about LGBT community, etc. I have tried to talk about this dynamic either in OP's or in responses on other threads however most of these things turn into name calling flame wars. The same was true during the primaries on any range of issues.

What the hell is going on here at DU?

[patrice]

1. I think Honesty is a good thing, even if it flames. People can't grow without Honesty. nt

[flvegan]

2. In good and early.

:popcorn:

[wndycty]

4. And why should this thread be locked. . .

. . .are you rooted for a lock?

Please explain.

[JVS]

11. Popcorn doesn't mean it should be locked. It means he expects to see a flame war

:popcorn:

It doesn't even imply you are at fault for the flamewar that might ensue

[rug]

9. There's the correct vote.

[wndycty]

12. Again, lobbying for a lock. . .

. . .I'd love to know why.

[rug]

16. Sorry, thought it was a poll on popcorn flavors.

[lamp_shade]

10. Scootch over a little....

:popcorn:

[ellisonz]

62. Hey! Stop hogging the butter!

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[Pirate Smile]

3. I can't believe no one has voted for option 3 "Anyone who doesn't agree with me just doesn't get it"

That seems like a common, frequently repeated theme.

[H2O Man]

5. Other.

There are some good discussions, which tend to be overshadowed by the others.

[wndycty]

7. Thanks

:kick:

[JuniperLea]

You beat me to it!

That is how I see it as well.

[patrice]

17. Hi H2O Man! Merry Christmas!!

:party:

[izzybeans]

20. I wish I had the patience to find them.

[NJmaverick]

6. In life there are people who are battlers.

These are the people that do the fighting or arguing. Often they are the oldest child, as they are the ones that tend to do the challenging of authority and pushing limits and boundries. When the DU was just that, the opposition to George Bush, the neocons and the corrupt GOP the battlers were are best and most admired. Then something funny happened. We won the war. Suddenly there wasn't anything to fight for. Battlers tend to do poorly in times of peace and tranquility. Now I would imagine some of you would point out the primary wars occured before the victory. I would counter that in our hearts we knew the Dems had an excellent chance and either Obama or Hillary could and would achieve victory in the general election.

So we have all these great battlers and no more need to fight the kind of fights we had, when the right wingnuts ruled our nation. This sort of thing happens not just at DU, but pretty much every where else, where there is a need to stand up and fight.

[JVS]

15. What makes you think the battlers did poorly in the primary wars?

It was a golden age for battlers.

[NJmaverick]

47. True it was a golden age, but those battles were not particular helpful or good

it was much better when the foes were the right wingnuts

[Why Syzygy]

8. We tend to use the keyboard to vent. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

13. I don't know. I like to stay away from the major controversies.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. It is real hard for people to have a civil discourse about their rights being violated

it seems that is part of the problem here. Some people just don't get how deeply personal an issue this is.

All analogies are flawed, but try this one.

Proposed: the OP ought to have three fingers amputated using a table knife.

Discuss.

[ellisonz]

63. The problem with the "personal" argument (yes I am using floaty quotes) in politics is...

...that a political issue can't not be personal. The application of the argument is a contradiction in and of itself yielding no rhetorical or philosophical resolution. Let me put it like this: most political commentators would agree that the legalization of gay marriage has been used by the right in this country as an effective wedge issues and most political commentators would also agree that this country is in dire straits across the policy board.

Hence, it is actually counterproductive in the political discourse to focus exclusively on one issue that actually does not have broad political affect (empirically speaking) that say health care reform (or education, or the economy, or foreign policy) does in practical political terms.

To focus on the latter in terms of political capital instead of the former, does not reflect a strategic shift necessarily, so much as a tactical shift. No rational person would claim that the the selection of Rick Warren reflects Barack Obama's actual beliefs in regards to all human dignity before the State. Basically, fuck immediatism as a general philosophical principle; we all must be flexible (and yes that is a subjective determination). Or would you have preferred McCain won because it might have caused the wanted political revolution to come sooner?

Essentially, the world of gay rights advocacy will not end on January 21st when Rick Warren gives an invocation. And now that all the air has been sucked out of the room, can we all return to saving capitalism from its own craven demise? An inconvenient truth? Anybody?

P.S. If I hear/read the phrase "thrown under the bus" one more time my head will explode.;(


:hide:

[alwysdrunk]

18. Other

There were definitely some good discussions. I actually felt like I learned a lot this past week.

That thread you mentioned was funny. I think the mods are just getting sick of all this shit. I don't blame them. Everything constructive that can be said already has, the only left to do is flame. I for one am taking the cue, no more Warren posts from me.

[izzybeans]

19. I think some are waiting for Obama to encourage/ban breastfeeding at his chain of Olive Gardens

before engaging in meaningful discussion.

But then again, he will soon take his children to a semi-formal restaurant and perhaps to a play. Once that happens their heads will explode again.

DU is only sometimes civil, always funny (even if unintentionally) and frequently informative.

GD-P is the place where complex political passions take a crap. It's hard to discuss anything of substance amongst the stench.

I stopped trying a long time ago and instead use this place as a giant news aggregator and the occasional place to let loose some sarcasm (or once in a blue moon something of substance).

And its always a good place to stick your spit moistened thumb in the air to see which way the wind is blowing.

[yardwork]

21. I don't know. Do you think your thread about how gay rights aren't the same as civil rights

contributed to civil discourse?

When people with fewer rights than everybody else are constantly demeaned and ridiculed, some of them tend to get angry. I think that you know that, and I think that this thread is an effort to continue causing trouble.

[wndycty]

23. Where in that thread did I say gay rights aren't the same as civil rights. . .

. . .tell me. You made the accusation now quote me and tell me where I said gay rights are not the same as civil rights. Back it up.

[yardwork]

28. It was your OP.

I support gay marriage, I'm offended by Warren at the Inaugural BUT these comparisons to RACE are BS And quite FRANKLY OFFENSIVE.

[wndycty]

31. And where did I say anything about Gay rights not being Civil Rights as you accused. . .

. . .again, you made an accusation so back it up.

[yardwork]

32. Did I misunderstand your OP. I thought it was very clear, caps and all.

Comparison of gay rights to black civil rights is...you used the words. In all caps. How does that contribute to civil discourse?

[wndycty]

33. You accused me of something tell me where I said it. . .

Now you are claiming a misunderstanding. Tell me where I said gay civil rights are not civil rights. You made accusation. . .so back it up. I never said and never implied it.

[yardwork]

35. Right here. This is your OP. It seems very clear to me.

You posted it. You own it.

I support gay marriage, I'm offended by Warren at the Inaugural BUT these comparisons to RACE are BS And quite FRANKLY OFFENSIVE.

[wndycty]

39. I own what I wrote, I won't own what you accuse of me of saying . . .

. . .where did I say anything about gay rights not being civil rights? You are making a false implication based upon what you are reading into what I said. Seriously, I would never say what you accuse of me saying nor would I imply that.

[Solon]

42. then why is comparisons with racial struggles for equality offensive to you?

Even you must admit some are comparable, and no one suggested they are exactly the same, so why is it so offensive?

[wndycty]

44. Its funny you bring that argument here instead of the thread. . .

. . .is it because its easier for you to misrepresent what I said in front of folks who might not have seen that thread.

Its offensive because when anyone tries to compare one's suffering to another's suffering by basically comparing apples to oranges it does a major disservice. As a Black male I'm offended when other African Americans call the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow the "Black Holocaust." It disrespects the true pain and suffering of the literally millions of Jews who had to go through that.

The Black experience in America is not like anything else, that doesn't make it better or worse than the struggles of other identity groups.

Every identity group's struggles for acceptance, equality and fairness are important and should be embraced.

[Solon]

45. I can understand how that would be offensive, however, does this mean all comparisons...

are equally as offensive, or even inappropriate? The most common comparison I've seen is the comparison of the struggle for Same Sex Marriage being similar to the abolishing of anti-miscegenation laws. Looking at both the arguments for and against interracial marriage in the past, and looking at current arguments for and against same sex marriage today, it seems most arguments, on both sides, are parallel to the arguments used back then. Is it inaccurate or offensive to draw this conclusion?

[wndycty]

48. How about this. . .the fact that folks are passing laws intended to deny LGBT folks. . .

. . .their rights is just plain sickening. Isn't that enough? We live in a country in which folks are actively seeking to deny folks their rights. That is plenty offensive to me, no need to draw any comparisons there is it?

[Solon]

49. But comparison are useful, indeed, I have little doubt that cases such as Loving vs. Virginia...

will be used as precedence for the overturning of Anti-Same Sex Marriage laws. Hence the reason associating such things with these cases and examples from the past are useful.

[Rockholm]

37. Why are you posting so many anti-gay threads?

under the guise of pro-gay or "just asking?"

[wndycty]

40. Now I am anti-gay? How the hell do you come to that assumption

:kick:

[wndycty]

26. Still waiting for quotes to back up your accusations. . .

:kick:

[yardwork]

29. Excuse me for having a life and not jumping to respond instantly. I was offline.

I was referring to your OP. Do you think it contributed to civil discourse?

I support gay marriage, I'm offended by Warren at the Inaugural BUT these comparisons to RACE are BS Updated at 10:37 AM

Edited on Tue Dec-23-08 09:47 AM by wndycty
And quite FRANKLY OFFENSIVE.

[EFerrari]

22. Other. The best stuff happens when people care enough about what they're saying

and about who they're saying it to. I appreciate those posts.

[stillcool]

24. I think there are some.. ...

who thrive on antagonizing, and others who are dishonest. Listening is my problem. The counting to 10 thing before you speak when you're angry is not something I practice, unless I care about the consequences for going off. Sometimes, not only do I not listen, but I don't even let people get their words out before I go off. I pre-judge where they are going, and think I know their mind. The conversation eventually gets around to either an exchange of ideas, an uncomfortable silence, or the loss of a friend. If I can do this face to face, in my own little world, just imagine what I can do on the net, with complete strangers where the consequences are nil.

[Norrin Radd]

25. What's more annoying is when we are incessantly nagged that we cannot engage in any

civil discourse whatsoever regarding Obama because he "hasn't been sworn in yet."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

27. Some individuals here are good at civil discourse

while others are not.

[ruggerson]

30. Maybe you're reading the wrong threads

[Pale Blue Dot]

34. Not from you. Ever. nt

[totodeinhere]

36. Too many posters say "fuck you" to other posters that they disagree with.

That certainly is not civil and IMO there is no excuse for such language no matter what the issue. You can hold very passionate views on an issue, but you should try to explain your point of view civilly and not resort to expletives.

[TheKentuckian]

38. Civility? That's for lame stuff that no one really cares about.

I hate the "read into it" responses the most. Yup, the ones that decide what the person meant and respond to that rather than to what was said. Followed by the "even asking questions demonstrates you are _____", therefore I'm insulted and can't be bothered.

I say whatever that is important for a person to go off the meter about should be important enough to at least try to enlighten others. You can't make the horse drink but if you're too good to lead it to the water then you didn't want it to drink any way. What you clearly want is to be able to complain about how stupid the horse is.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

43. I think this post, by itself, illustrates exactly the problem we have here...

Using terms like cry babies and faux outrage is rather infantile, and dehumanizing to those who are upset.

[ruggerson]

46. all that I can see that you've ever done is attempt to demean people

and dehumanize them. Not very promising for civil dialogue.

[PunkinPi]

50. Your consistent arrogant tone and condescension

toward other DUers has been one of the LEAST civil things on DU. This post is NOT an exception.

[Bluebear]

52. And of course, now it's gone down the memory hole so nobody will see it

[Solon]

55. I did quote much of it, and I remember who it is. n/t

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PunkinPi]

65. Nice try

I'm sure if the DU admin/mods thought I was a sockpuppet, I would have been banned by now. But you knew that. :eyes:

[JNelson6563]

51. I was told to Fuck Off And Die today

and then told I am an "asshole". I alerted on it so we shall see if it is left up, I doubt it but sad isn't it? DU wasn't always like this.

Julie

[Rowdyboy]

53. I've read your words for years and often agree with you ....Sadly not today

Some things aren't negotiable to me. They may be to you and most other DUers but Rick Warren's role in the inaugural makes me feel like Obama kicked me in the balls. Any half-awake GLBT person is going to feel the same. I actually believed I was working and donating to someone who would support me yet at his first opportunity Barack Obama spits in my face.

I still support Obama. I wish him the very best and hope I can support him in 4 years. But the joy in his election, the pleasure in celebrating his win-thats over. He killed it in a stupid attempt to reach out to people that will never reach back. Just how far is he willing to go to "reach out"? He's already gone too far for me just with Rick Warren. What's your tipping point? If he decides to stay in Iraq until 2014? Maybe we "reach out" and renew the Bush tax cuts, or strengthen the Patriot Act and domestic surveillance. Someday he'll "reach out" to our declared enemies and it will touch you personally and deeply, like Rick Warren touches those of us he's compared to pedophiles. Then you'll understand why the rage is so furious and the anger so palpable.

It wasn't supposed to be this way when we won. The fuckhead evangelical assholes weren't supposed to be feted on "our" day. Eight years of Bush-Cheney and we bust ass for what? Rick Warren as our new "pastor in chief" working hard to keep our new president firmly in the middle of the road. Sorry, that wasn't what we bargained for.

[wndycty]

56. What are we disagreeing on?

1) I agree with you in that the Warren pick was wrong and I can understand why man of my friends in the GLBT community are upset

2) We even agree with Obama's intent "He killed it in a stupid attempt to reach out to people that will never reach back." Many folks are saying he is purposed dissing the GLBT community, you aren't you and I share that position.

My position has always been it was a wrong choice, everyone should put heat on the Obama team to remove Warren, and Obama's attempt was to reach out.

What are we not agreeing on?

[Rowdyboy]

58. At this stage I'm too tired and depressed to know anymore....

The threads have all started to run together. As a white southern gay male I don't have any desire to argue with a friend over the similarities/differences in the civil rights issues facing blacks vs gays. Here in Haley Barbour's Mississippi today blacks and open gays have pretty much equal status-three steps below dog shit.

It really doesn't matter what I think anyway because nothing is going to fundamentally change. I believe Barack means well but he has never had a serious connection to the GLBT community and this makes it apparent that he has no interest in developing one. Barack dated us seriously during the campaign but now that its prom night he's dumped us in favor of the head cheerleader.

I do believe one thing-we all will come to regret the day Obama annointed Rick Warren as "America's Pastor". It is a foolish, shortsighted, self-serving act that he and we will all come to regret.

I was really excited about the inaugural. Now I'll just be glad when its over.

[Splinter Cell]

54. Not in the least.

A lot of people on here are pretty savage about disagreement. They can't accept the fact that other people can think differently, and NOT be fucking idiots.

[ShadowLiberal]

57. I think Nate Silver has an interesting theory on this passion stirred up on the left recently

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/12/passing-thought-on-rick-warren.html

Basically what he says in that post boils down to several things, though I'd suggest you read his whole post instead of my summary.

-He starts out by talking about how polls show a majority of Americans support abortion without restrictions, but how since a significant minority who oppose abortion care about the issue much more, and are more likely to base their vote on it, it makes it a good rallying cry for republicans.

-He then says basically that this sudden surge of passion on the left for gay marriage, with liberals being willing to raise as much ruckus on the issue as the right now it seems, could be the beginning of something similar on the gay marriage issue taking shape. It's not entirely clear which group he talks about being the majority however, since he also mentions that a similar number who support abortion support civil unions for gays now.

-He also theorizes a bit that one reason for this stirred up passion is prop 8 recently being passed, and suspects that had Kerry won in 2004 and picked Warren for the same thing that nowhere near as much fuss would have been made about the Warren selection as people on the left are making today.

[NashVegas]

67. I Think It's Quite Different From That

The left, liberals, progressives, whatever, have been building a near critical mass in a popular movement that scares the shit out of the power-elite.

Washington gave us a young, charismatic (if under-qualified), history-making candidate in hopes of distracting us from our building demands.

It cannot be understated: Obama did not build this wave - he rode it into office.

Unfortunately, Washington Democrats never took into account what the effect might be of pissing off one of the most reliable demographic groups of their base - a group that had already been slapped in the face on election day.

The more time spent thinking about it, the more it becomes important to send a message to Obama to decide NOW who his constituency is. His honeymoon with the press is only going to last *so* long, and if he abandons the wave that brought him into office, who is going to raise a voice to defend him and his policies when the RW noise machine restarts?

[TexasObserver]

59. We have civil discourse, but expecting all posts to be reasonable is unreasonable.

Anywhere thousands of people come together anonymously online to discuss volatile issues, there will be misconduct.

When I drive on the freeway, I don't expect all the drivers to be sane or reasonable. Same same here.

[yurbud]

60. if you don't like a discussion, ignore it.

[ellisonz]

64. McClurkin

[polmaven]

66. K & R...

I voted that certainly do have opportunities, but flame wars quickly develop because too few of us are all too unwilling to even listen to other points of view.

In a thread yesterday, I was called all manner of nasty things because I don't believe Dick Cheney! Yes...you heard it right! I expressed the opinion that the current Democratic leadership is doing as good a job as the very slim majority will allow them to do, but I am obviously too stupid to be able to form an opinion.

I, too, am offended by Rick Warren. For me, as a straight woman, who is also a rabid feminist, it is as much about his attitude toward women as it is about his views on GLBT.

I am, however, not willing to throw President Elect Obama overboard until I see if his leadership extends toward implementing Warrens views on gays and women. I tend to doubt it highly! He is a good man, and will, I think, ..(to yesterday's poster, yes, I actually do engage in that activity occasionally) be an excellent president.

We are all allowed to screw up now and then. He hasn't shown that he does that often. I'm sure he has heard the outrage and will learn from it.