You can give a bigot a podium AFTER he converts, not before

[Spectral Music]

Right now, Rick Warren doesn't deserve to be sweeping up behind the horses in the inauguration day parade. When he sees the light and quits trying to disappear or denigrate his gay brothers and sisters, then you can let him sell popcorn.

[xchrom]

1. recommend

[KittyWampus]

2. you can negotiate with Iran AFTER they renounce X. You can be diplomatic with N.Korea AFTER Y

In other words, you actually do believe in preconditions to negotiations.

Face it, this line of "reasoning" simply equals you can bridge divides between opponents except when it's your ox being gored.

[yowzayowzayowza]

3. "You sound like a bigot."

Response to me last week making the same point. Mindboggling, just mindboggling.

[tbyg52]

8. False analogy.

Nobody is going to invite any government officials from Iran or N. Korea to the inauguration, much less ask them to make a speech.

[yowzayowzayowza]

14. Well, duh. How, zactly, is ...

this giving a speech?

[tbyg52]

16. Uh, standing up in front of a bunch of people,

on a podium with a bunch of dignitaries, and saying words into a PA?! And *your* definition would be......? :crazy:

Edited for inevitable stupid typo.

[yowzayowzayowza]

18. Whatever, a prayer izn't a speech. n/t

[tbyg52]

19. I can't argue with that. Literally.

You point at words spoken in front of a bunch of people, on a platform with a bunch of dignitaries, and say because you hang the label "prayer" on it, it isn't a speech. Nor do you tell me what, to you, a speech *is*, just what it *isn't*. Therefore I give up.

Well, not without saying that even if it isn't a "speech," which I don't concede, it's a rare honor and should be given to someone who believes in the principles of this country.

[yowzayowzayowza]

23. A public prayer is a very specific type address...

as in the example I sited has limited scope and specific purposes.

Itz dishonorable to deny the religious sentiments of millions of Americans voice at our national inaugural celebration, regardless their immoral positions, which not incidentally, will not be included in this specialized address, prayer.

[tbyg52]

26. "Dishonorable"?

When we live under a *secular* government, supposedly?

I think it's wrong (i.e., unconstitutional) to favor one religion over another, but I see no *Constitutional* grounds for religion being included in an inauguration at all, which would have short-circuited this whole thing.

If it's going to be included, as a matter of tradition, it could at least be with the most non-controversial persons available. Definitely not someone who doesn't believe in full rights for women and gays. Yeah, I know, that's just his "religious" view. It's his view just the same.

[yowzayowzayowza]

27. We're in agreement cept fer ...

utilizing "the most non-controversial persons available." I think the discussion garnered from Warrenz inclusion has been invaluable publicity.

[tbyg52]

32. Well, yeah, it's been that.

Only time will tell for *whom* it has been invaluable. :hi:

[Spectral Music]

33. Publicity for what? And is publicity on the backs of the gay community's civil rights a fair trade?

Your serve.

[tbyg52]

37. May I leave this to you? I have to go eat lunch now.....!

:hi:

[yowzayowzayowza]

38. Publicity of Warrenz intolerance for the ...

betterment of the open minded.

[Spectral Music]

41. The open minded don't need the selection of a bigot for the inauguration to recognize that he is one

And the closed minded won't care anyway.

Nice try, but definitely no cigar.

[yowzayowzayowza]

43. The clue phone is useful for ...

open minded folks on grounds of personal liberty who have grown up in intolerant religious families. Guess the next GLBT Prop vote has no use fer those folks. No reason for public dialog to show them GLBTz aren't a menace after all. :eyes:

[Spectral Music]

44. So we are teaching the intolerant that it is ok to choose a bigot for an honor, and the publicity

helps because....they are intolerant?

[yowzayowzayowza]

46. No, because they're ignorant. n/t

[tbyg52]

51. So don't stop there - try to enlighten them! nt

[yowzayowzayowza]

53. And you have answered your question from post 33:

"Publicity for what?"

Good Evening!!!

[tbyg52]

54. Could have done that without giving Warren a place in a national ceremony!

And a good night to all!

[Spectral Music]

61. Exactly. You can train the ignorant without giving one of their own kind a national honor

In fact, choosing someone like Warren seems counterproductive to the aim of education. It makes bigots feel that they're ok the way they are: after all, the president chose one of them.

[tbyg52]

55. Um, may I poiht out

That I nether made post 33, nor said "publicity for what" (exact quote).

Don't know if I agree or disagree with either, as I am tired and going to bed. Just correcting the official record..... ;)

[Spectral Music]

70. For the record, I said that.

:)

[Spectral Music]

60. If they're ignorant and intolerant, then knowledge doesn't necessarily bring out tolerance

There are far better ways to heal ignorance, and stomping all over the LGBT community is not one of them.

[yowzayowzayowza]

62. Silencing & excluding 'em will certainly help.

:eyes: A coupla moments generic Christian prayer for our PE & nation giving voice to a religious perspective shared by millions of Americans, however immoral some of itz underpinnings, does not constitute "stomping all over the LGBT community."

[Spectral Music]

65. No one is silencing Rick Warren. He has a website and a nationwide presence

He has a megachurch of 5000 people and lots more on his mailing list.

Tell me again how we're silencing them, and be sure to use the rolley eye thing. :)

[dflprincess]

74. What about the millions of Americans whose religious sentiments

are offened by Warren's brand of Christianity? Our sentitments are being ignored. There really should be no religion at any government function.

[yowzayowzayowza]

75. Rev Lowery?

Certainly not a perfect offset, but certainly the other end of the spectrum. As an agnostic, the religious displays at governmental functions make me uncomfortable too, but on this issue I'm in the minority for the foreseeable future.

[dflprincess]

77. Rev Lowery does not make up for the offensive Warren gives

and, I agree with you, there should be no religious displays at government functions. But if there are - and Obama really wanted to be the president of all Americans - he might have had Lowery and then "reached out" by asking someone from something other than a Christian sect to give the invocation.

[yowzayowzayowza]

80. Interesting idear.

Woulda been fun to watch freeper headz esplode over an Islamic Cleric.

:bounce:

eta: regarding "Rev Lowery does not make up for the offensive Warren gives"

I can imagine the millions on the religious right feeling similarly over Lowery and baby killing. Come to think of it, Obama has effectively pist off the religious right, left and athiests/agnostics with these choices ... pretty much EVERYBODY.

[Spectral Music]

9. Obama is not negotiating with Rick Warren; he's giving him an honor before any negotiations at all

Try another analogy.

[yowzayowzayowza]

15. All elements of interaction are part of a negotiation. n/t

[tbyg52]

20. Yeah, but they are not all *required* -we could have done quite well without this particular one. nt

[yowzayowzayowza]

21. So far, I think itz been a resounding success...

save for the attacks on Obama for his magnanimous act of inclusion.

[tbyg52]

22. OK, I give up.

I literally can't argue with someone who points at things, calls them by words of his/her choosing, and insists that by naming them he/she has proved them to be so, no further discussion necessary.

I'm off to point at my bank account and call it a million dollars. Hope it works....

[yowzayowzayowza]

24. Apparently,...

"no further discussion necessary." :eyes:

[tbyg52]

25. Just sayin'

that the only way I see that I could "argue" or "discuss" would be to put my own labels on things, point at them, and say "see, I have proved my point by my label!"

I could do that too, I guess, but I don't think it would accomplish anything - sure didn't with my bank account.... :(

[yowzayowzayowza]

30. Been avoiding the BofA on Jackson St too.

No good news there!!!

:hi:

eta: As far as the labels, I asked you specifically how an example inaugural prayer from 1997 was a speech. With all due respect, I didn't jus lay into obfuscation via labels.

[tbyg52]

35. Well, I can't claim to have read the whole thing

But I did click on it and see that it was Billy Graham (whom I don't like either, but don't ask me for a lot of details since, until recently, I thought I could get by without keeping religious leaders on the front burner of my mind).

I'm sure it wasn't *policy* speech, and Warren's had better not be either....!

But I still say that being given a spot on the podium with a bunch of dignitaries and standing up and saying words into the PA in front of a bunch of people is a "speech" in the sense that it gets your face and your words in front of a bunch of people, with legitimacy lent by the bunch of dignitaries.

[mkultra]

69. it must be a speech because he pointed to it and labeled it. nt

[Spectral Music]

31. When were negotiations officially opened, yowzayowzayowza?

Negotiations have a structure and everyone understands when they are taking place. Obama is not making negotiations here. He is blatantly choosing a public figure to be part of his oath taking ceremony.

[yowzayowzayowza]

39. Are the only negotiations of import official and structured? n/t

[Spectral Music]

42. On a national political issue of this magnitude (like civil rights), absolutely.

If you are negotiating the price of a car, you're on your own.

[yowzayowzayowza]

63. Thatz jus silly.

Sure letz get millions of Americans around the table at once and execute a formal negotiation schedule. Thatz certainly now what occurred in the '60s.

[Spectral Music]

67. So when did President Nixon choose a flower child to give the inaugural prayer?

To extend your very silly analogy...

[tbyg52]

50. I realize you are not super new, but may I say

Welcome to DU, and congrats on being able to afford to live in SD, much less LJ, much less as a student!

Best wishes to you,and wish I were there (again)!

[Solon]

13. When we actually open up negotiations with Rick Warren, you will have a point, until then, well...

you really don't have a point.

[Clintonista2]

47. Nobody is negotiating with Rick Warren though

He's being honored, not negotiated with.

[marylanddem]

4. I don't think he considers anyone his brothers and sisters (equals)

I think he either has a Christ complex (which would explain his "Christophobes" comment) or is a pretty good con-man

[immoderate]

5. To take him down, you have to expose him.

--IMM

[marylanddem]

6. His defensive "Christophobes" comment suggests he may

be painting himself into a corner. He seemed a bit paranoid in that video.

[immoderate]

29. I just heard his speech to the Muslims on C-SPAN.

He says he's all about giving and loving everybody. Some one has to ask him how it's going to hurt to allow equal rights for GLBTs. He's about sacrifice when it suits him, but not about giving up his dogma.

Thousand of gay marriages have been performed in California and other places in this country, as well as other countries. He should be asked to show where anyone has been harmed by this. He has nothing except to cling to his definition of marriage.

--IMM

[bvar22]

7. It really is that simple.

K&R

"Centrism"....for those who are proud to be Half-Republican.

[Writer]

10. Did you know that KKK members and Neo-Nazi's have the right to free speech in this nation?

You did know that?

Oh, good.

Whew.

[Solon]

11. do they have an constitutional right to participate in Obama's Inauguration?

To be given a stage or podium there by the President-Elect?

Seriously, you are changing subjects here. This is NOT a free speech issue. Nice attempt at misrepresenting what the OP said.

[tbyg52]

17. Thank you.

I totally don't get this argument that asking him to participate in the inauguration is no different than speaking to him in other circumstances.

[Solon]

28. This is somewhere around the second or third time I saw this poster confuse this issue with free...

speech. Whether on purpose or simply out of sheer stupidity, and they stick by that position by reiterating it.

[Spectral Music]

34. Rick Warren has all the free speech in the world, including an internet site and a mega church.

The inauguration is not free speech, it's an honor. Would you have a neo-Nazi give the prayer?

[Solon]

36. Who are you speaking to? n/t

[Spectral Music]

40. Oops. Attached it to the wrong post.

You and I are on the same side, I believe.

[Writer]

45. Actually it is a goddamned free speech issue...

because your claim is that you can give a bigot a podium... that's an expression of free speech. What you;re saying is that this person has no right to speak at the inaugural because of his hateful views. Okay... but does he plan to express hateful views during his 2 minute prayer? Probably not. So it must be that you have a problem with him period.

Fine. Ban religion. Let's see how far that gets past constitutional muster.

[Clintonista2]

48. Normally I agree with you on the issues, but you are SO dead wrong on this one

[Writer]

52. Would you permit latitude to someone who is rip=roaring drunk?

:shrug:

[Spectral Music]

72. Only if you share the libations

:toast:

[tbyg52]

49. >>Fine. Ban religion.

No interest in that at all, for a lot of reasons. Just want to ban its influence in government, and vice versa.

[Solon]

56. Complete and utter bull, and you know it, ban religion? Where the fuck did that come from?

You really are bouncing all over the place, I feel this conversation is useless, get back to me when you can stay on subject and can say something coherent, ok?

[Spectral Music]

71. There's a lot of bouncing around when trying to defend the indefensible.

Such is life.

[leftstreet]

12. K&R

:thumbsup:

[yurbud]

57. I agree, but think about the role Obama gave him--a symbolic not substantive one

however, I entirely agree with your post. I'm just scratching my head trying to come up with a respectable reason why he's done it.

[Spectral Music]

58. Obama gave him a spotlight and an honor, and I'm scratching my head too.

I can't think of why.

[yurbud]

64. ''spotlight'' is key word. Megachurch pastors have mega-egos. In this spotlight, Warren either

has to moderate his anti-gay views or consign himself to being the new Fred Phelps.

Since many suburban Evangelicals crave respect from the mainstream and being perceived as separate from the angry, toothless hillbilly image of Phelps' ilk, there might be some internal pressure to change too.

[Spectral Music]

68. I don't think it's that simple here. Warren has a congregation of 5000, not just immediate family

members like Phelps. Warren is connected with government programs internationally. Warren isn't small potatoes and, unlike Phelps, he has the US government behind him.

[yurbud]

91. I was exaggerating a bit. point was, he wants to hold onm to prominence

& political influence.

If he makes a dick of himself at invocation or makes some new anti-gay statement that makes Obama have to repudiate him, he will lose that influence and even if his congregation grows, he'll feel like someone snipped off his balls.

I think we will see something unexpected happen with him.

[LaydeeBug]

59. my only problem with the op is that I can't rec it. SO TRUE SO TRUE SO TRUE. NT

[Spectral Music]

66. Too late to rec. But many thanks for wanting to.

:D

[Spectral Music]

73. Sd 3, De 6

:(

[Enrique]

76. Obama doesn't see Warren as a bigot

if he did, he wouldn't have invited him.

[Solon]

78. And that is the problem. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

79. Most people don't see homophobes as bigots.

Sadly. I'm pretty sure that Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter doesn't see Cheney as a bigot.

[Enrique]

81. i don't either, frankly

I see him as an undescribably bad person, but homophobe means he hates gays and I haven't seen that.

[Luminous Animal]

82. You don't have to "hate" gays to be a homophobe.

One of the defining characteristics of a homophobe is discrimination against queers. And without a doubt, the party that he belongs to and policy that it advocates does precisely that.

[Enrique]

84. so he's a homophobe because he's a republican?

wouldn't that make Mary Cheney herself be a homophobe?

Wouldn't that make all democrats as well as republicans be homophobes, since neither party supports gay marriage?

Silly definition of homophobe, imo. Much more useful is the one you reject, a homophobe is someone who hates gays.

[Luminous Animal]

85. Try to keep up...

I said one of the definitions of homophobe. And yes, I do characterize Ms. Cheney as a homophobe. And no, not all Dems are homophobes. The California Democratic party comes to mind. The Democratic California legislatures passed a bill legalizing same sex marriage. Our Republican governor vetoed it. I do hope that one day the national party will be on the right side of this issue but, in the meantime, yes, they are homophobes.

[Enrique]

86. if you thought Mary Cheney was a homophobe...

then why would you write, "Sadly. I'm pretty sure that Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter doesn't see Cheney as a bigot."

Makes no sense.

Does it really do any good to go around throwing the words homophobe and bigot at everyone, even Dick Cheney?

[Luminous Animal]

87. Because Mary Cheney doesn't see herself

as a homophobe. But she is. She is part and parcel of a political organization that employs wedge issues that cause real harm to real human beings and one of those issues is to deprive LGBTs of their full civil rights as an American citizen. She is also, a member of the powerful elite and she can afford to pay for all the legal help she needs to protect her family. It costs her nothing to be a homophobe.

[Enrique]

88. sorry, I'm not buying it

it doesn't jibe with "Sadly. I'm pretty sure that Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter doesn't see Cheney as a bigot."

No, what happened was you inaccurately* accused her father, not Mary, of being a homophobe, and the rest is just a confused justification for it. It's just more confusion.

*I was going to say "unfairly" but the word fair doesn't really apply to Cheney. If he were treated fairly he would be in prison for various things.

[Luminous Animal]

89. No problem, I'm not invested in you "buying it".

In fact, I am quite enjoying the defense of Dick Cheney!

[Fearless]

83. DEAD HORSE.

Til some can either come up with something new or plans to act on these words... :boring:

[Spectral Music]

90. Not a dead horse

It just fell on deaf ears.

[Fearless]

92. Fed up ears actually...

You see discussion of the same tired points can only be tolerated for so long. Either we must have action or we must let it die. Otherwise we do ourselves no good and in fact detriment our movement by creating this as a running joke to the Rethug base.

[Spectral Music]

94. The same tired points? When does Civil Rights get old and boring?

This is no running joke, and being told to keep our mouths shut and go along because otherwise we "detriment" our movement is immoral.

[reflection]

93. Ok.