how do we prevent obama from becoming the next jimmy carter? bill clinton?

[mopinko]

let us all please remember that the last 2 democratic presidents were cut off at the knees by tptb. we all know how hard it is to be a member of the democratic unparty. we all know that we want our representatives to be perfect. we all know that we jump on the mistakes and petty crimes of dems, and chew them up in a way that the other side does not. (watching a video in another window of cynthia mckinney on cnn. anyone who doesn't know what i am talking about here just think back to her set up dust up with the security guard.)

and we know that they will be gunning for obama. and that they have at hand a whole big box full of dog whistles. and we know the trolls that come out of the woodwork to sow division here.


so, can we be an organized party? can we keep the promise that so many of us made to always have obama's back?

[lamp_shade]

1. Awgeeze.

[HamdenRice]

2. It depends on us -- especially pressuring him to do the right things

For example, rather than arguing over a prayer at inauguration, we should be bending all our efforts right now into lobbying/helping craft (1) the stimulus, and (2) universal health care.

We have to think of the Obama administration as OUR vehicle for change, not as our driver.

It makes me very disappointed that there are not two dozen posts analyzing and promoting various health care reform proposals.

We're bickering about a prayer and the lobbyists are already chowing down on whatever the hell Daschle is thinking about in terms of health care reform.

If we could put 500,000 people on the streets saying, no not this time, you're not fiddling on the health care titanic this time, we could pressure them into making the right choice.

In turn, if Obama delivers universal single payer health care, Democrats will run the country virtually unopposed for the next 20-30 years.

[CTyankee]

4. Oh, boy, Hamden, you've really nailed it!

And yet, I think there is a chance we might rise to the occasion. Just yesterday, in our local paper's "sound-off" section, where people are asked to briefly respond to questions of interest, there were an overwhelming number of responders to the question of "what should be done about health care now?" Since the "sound off" board is anonymous, it can usually be racist, sexist, homophobic and RW (the only way they can do this in New Haven's mostly progressive community). But, to my surprise, practically every responder answered with some form of "universal health care" where the government took a larger role.

So I was encouraged thinking that the people are ready for this change. Obama's REAL test will be to overcome the powerful lobby against universal health care.

[John Q. Citizen]

11. Their is no lobby opposed to government sponsered private health insurance

In fact the private insurance companies would love to have the government spend lots of money, and continually more money, on buying private health insurance for Americans.

The problem is we can't afford it. Look at MA and their government paying private companies to cover the low income public. The cost is spiraling out of control so of course benefits are cut.

If one looks at the Obama plan, it is a lot like the MA. plan. There are some parts that are better, but it's a patchwork of both public and private funding that is both redundant and overly complicated, and as such, overly costly.

We need a lobby to fight that and to push for a single payer plan. And as Hamdan so correctly stated, that lobby would be us.


Now, if we lose, we need to make sure the Obama plan at least has some good stuff in it like;

1. Community rating
2. Portability
3. A community pool that people can buy into if they don't want to buy from a private company.


I can tell you a few things that I know for facts.

1 Any bill has to go through Max Baucus and his Senate finance committee and through Kennedy and his health committee.
2 Baucus has taken single payer off the table. In public statements he clearly and unequivocally has said that 'Americans don't want single payer.' And that he isn't doing single payer.
3.There is no one I can see high up in the new administration who advocates single payer

All we have is a statement out of Obama years ago that said if he were designing a new system, from scratch, that he would probably choose a single payer system. That of course doesn't apply to us here and now in any way shape or form. So the only way we are getting single payer is if enough of us demand it. And keep demanding it for much longer than the Warren invite has gone on. Years longer.

i have posted the link to the outline of the Baucus plan. You can find it through google if you want to see what he has produced to guide his legislation. It's a good place to start if you are interested what the powers that be are thinking.

[avaistheone1]

35. As long as Obama as the people's back, then we have his back.

However, he places corporate earth and the military-industrial war machine above the people all bets are off.

[Blue_Roses]

15. yep, and well said!

My kids will lose their CHIPS insurance January 1st. They will no longer be insuranced because we can't afford insurance with my husband's job.

I will be writing in to Daschle to see how I can help. This has to change.

[mopinko]

26. you have put your finger on what has me afraid.

the bickering of which you speak reminds me of our vulnerability to the flames of outrage. i think that we have seen just how high those flames can grow with only a little wind.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

38. PREACH!!! Couldn't have stated this any better!!!

[CTyankee]

3. Carter and Clinton each had some pretty fatal flaws, IMHO.

Carter's team just wasn't very savvy about Washington. I liked Carter and thought his human rights work was exemplary, but he didn't have the political smarts needed to survive.

Clinton's fatal flaw was his personal proclivities which bordered on sex addiction. Clinton has a brilliant mind and mostly fabulous political instincts, but his problem with sex was a great big fat target for the RW. They knew this before he was elected and they were ready and gunning for him the moment he took office.

Obama, OTOH, is a savvy guy politically. He ran an almost perfect primary and presidential campaign. Going in, he has no fatal personal flaws for the RW to attack, despite their attempts with Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, and now Blagojevitch.

The country is is a far different place now than it was with Carter and Clinton. 8 years of disaster with Bush has gotten lots of even Republicans "scared straight" and out of their republican bubble of craziness.

75% of the American public wants Obama to do a good job and has positive feelings about him. We all feel that we kinda "know" the guy. He has a calming effect, which is what the country needs right now so we can go forward and not live in fear and distrust.

I think most people, not just liberals, feel that a new day has dawned and we are eager to greet it...

[HamdenRice]

5. Another "flaw" of Clinton and Carter was that they were governors

And I remember in both cases, the news media had this huffy attitude that these southern "yokels" were riding in with their own people, and weren't plugged into Washington. IIRC, they called Clinton's people the "Little Rock mafia" or something like that.

Obama was a Senator, and we haven't elected a Senator turned president since Nixon, a Democratic Senator turned president since Johnson, and haven't elected one right out of the Senate since JFK. In that sense, Obama has his networks already in place both in the Senate and in the remnants of the Clinton administration that is coming back to town.

[mopinko]

6. yeah, but

imho- i think we know now that the "energy crisis" of the carter years was really a market manipulation. for all the headlines about opec at the time, have they screwed with our economy since then? i think they jacked up oil prices to wreck the economy, so that carter would be marginalized. i know that is a simplification, but that is how i look at it.

and bill clinton got impeached while practically every republican in washington was doing worse, chasing pages and who knows what all, and no one made a peep.

to me, when i see people rocked by scandals, i just assume that someone wants them taken down, because they all have their skeletons.

[CTyankee]

7. It's a question of degree, esp. with Clinton.

But I do agree with you in large part about the powers that be wanting to take down someone they fear. However, in Carter's case, the time just had not come for us to come to grips with the environmental issues that engulf us and it's too bad it has had to come to this to get people demanding change. In Clinton's case, he opened himself up for the tear down. He was foolish to do so, but perhaps it was an addiction that he couldn't deal with...

[karynnj]

13. I think that part of the problem was that both Carter and Clinton were outsiders

This made them attractive as candidates when they ran - especially for Carter, who didn't have Clinton's charisma. I agree with you that Clinton was brilliant and add that he was very charismatic, but I totally disagree that he had "fabulous political instincts". In 1992, he did win the nomination, but not until June. He then was at times 3 out of 3 until Perot imploded, finally beating a President with a 33% approval rating. In 1996, he was the incumbent in basically good times against an awful opponent. In 2007 and 2008, he likely hurt HRC more than he helped her. In addition, he was more politically skillful as a candidate than as a President.

I wouldn't use the words personal flaws for Carter. Clinton obviously had a major personal flaw, but I don't think that was as much a reason for the lack of success he had in passing a Democratic agenda. The biggest problem I see is that they were both outsiders and both, in their own ways, arrogantly thought they did not need to adapt to the DC culture.

In office, being an outsider was a liability because they did things in non-productive ways. LBJ,who didn't have Clinton's charisma, had political skills that were stronger in getting stuff passed. Look at all the big things passed under Clinton - most were things the Republicans wanted or things like SCHIP that Senators initiated, gained support for and passed.

Look at both gays in the military and healthcare. In both cases, the most likely way to have succeeded would have been to pull in the stakeholders. Meeting with the military and the Armed Services committee and working with them to get a mutually agreeable plan could have led to something better than don't ask don't tell. On healthcare, Hillary Clinton and Ira Magaziner developed a plan that fit the format that Bill Clinton wanted. No one in Congress was asked for input - not Kennedy on the Senate HELP committee or Bill Bradley and others on the Senate Finance Committee or anyone in the House. HRC initially refused to divulge who the committee spoke to. In both cases, the Clintons acted in a way that worked in Arkansas, but which made it harder to succeed in DC. Both of these were before any of his personal flaws were obvious. Clinton's first year was a mess - where he had difficulty getting appointments confirmed or much support on anything.

The thing I read that most convinces me that he will do better was an article on how he managed his campaign and his Senate staff. The idea of wanting everyone with an interest in the topic in the room to discuss it at the same time leads to ideas and approaches being tested when they are easier to change or adjust before they become a firm plan. He also has been a legislator himself - both in Illinois and in the US Senate, so he is more aware of the culture.

[polmaven]

8. Before answering your question of

how we can prevent this, I need to know what "tptb" is. :shrug:

[mopinko]

9. the powers that be.

as in- the people who are really in charge of this country, mostly. the rich people, the saudis, like that.

[SwampG8r]

10. the powers that be

[Phx_Dem]

12. I don't think Obama needs to be saved from himself.

He's been right about pretty-much everything all along and has made all the right moves.

[mopinko]

14. i agree

but i know that bullshit is coming down the road.
i also know that he knows very well the fdr game plan of- i agree with you, i want to do it, now make me do it.
this is the key, imho, to getting the job done. but how do we make each other do it?

[Forkboy]

16. I wish he was more like Carter, not less.

That's part of the problem. ;)

And I can think of at least one group that had his back in the election only to have him slap them in the face. That covering one's back stuff goes both ways.

[stillcool]

19. What about the "Carter Doctrine"?

You didn't find anything wrong with that? How would you like Obama to be more like Carter? How was Jimmy Carter at this stage anyway?

[Forkboy]

20. I was being facetious.

While Carter was not the best president we've had in my lifetime, he's clearly the best person to hold the job. I wish all of us were more like him, put it that way. :)

[stillcool]

24. I'm having a hard time..

trying to ascertain what it is people's expectations are, and what part of the future they see that I can not. Seems to be a big part of the problem. It is so very much a spectator sport focused on star players, in a wee speck of the field.. except for those crying and dying as a result of the policies and the non-participation in our supposed democracy. The idea that any person has the power by his/her lonesome to do anything they damn well please..where does that come from? Even a dictator needs an army.

[mopinko]

36. Even a dictator needs an army.

we will need to be his army. they will come after him.

[mopinko]

30. i still shake my head at the notion that they were able to beat carter up

about having a brother that drank beer. :banghead:

[stillcool]

32. My parents loved Billy..

I can't imagine what would happen to any human being who really went straight up against the entrenched government apparatus we have. Well...yes I can.

[karynnj]

41. It wasn't so much that he drank beer - it was tacky that he endorsed "Billy Beer"

It was that he negotiated with Libya! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Carter

Very few held this against the moral, serious upright Jimmy Carter - he was not responsible for his brother. (Which was true with the Bushes, the Clintons - where both HRC and Bill had bad brothers - that was NOT their fault.) The good news is Obama's sister is wonderful. (Siblings being good or bad seems to have little political effect - it would be hard to find three more upstanding, commendable siblings than the 3 Kerry has. All 3 in some way or other share the value of public service their brother has.)

[OwnedByFerrets]

17. Probably cant. We cant fight the Big Money Machine.

We dont seem to be able to organize ourselves out of wet paper bags.

[stillcool]

18. I don't know..

What little I've witnessed here doesn't bode well. I am not able to attend any of our local inauguration parties, but I'm sure the New Year will bring lots of opportunities for me to interact with my compadre's and find ways to contribute to public perception. I'm not too worried about finding a more unified venue than DU to make our way. The proof of the election is enough for me to be optimistic that people are more open to other people than they are to the tv screen, or to the DU screen. I won't have any problem calling another state and asking Jane six-pack, if she knows about issue "X", and if she's willing to contact her representatives to urge them to get on board.

[WI_DEM]

21. Obama is much brighter than Carter, politically, and more principled than Clinton.

[S_E_Fudd]

22. If he does as well as Bill Clinton...

He will be a great success...

[mopinko]

25. i'm not talking about what he did, but what was done to him.

will we see a new arkansas project? i suspect scaife et al are in chicago right now, trying to dig up anything. i know that ayers and wright failed to stick, which gives me some hope, but they will keep trying.

[cbc5g]

23. We'll just have to bitch and moan a lot

I do have a sneaking feeling that Obama, like Clinton, will be a tool of special interests and big money. But it's better than a republican in office, thats for damn sure. The Clinton years were far better than the Bush years.

[mopinko]

27. well, i don't agree with you, but

those guys will be pushing on him, for sure. i think bill was lulled to sleep by them. if we are united behind barack, he will tell them to take a hike.
yes, we will need to bitch and moan. but can we resist the bait that will be dangled in our face, and turn on him and each other, is my question.

[EFerrari]

28. I don't think it can be at the party level but more like its outlets -- at the level

of satellites like DU.

I've been thinking about this for months now -- because you know what they did to the Clintons will be child's play. On our side, we have a public sick to death of the spin and lies.

Imho, even right here in this forum, we could begin actions to push back on the cr@p! as it is flung -- with essays, with emails, with phone calls and with networking to other sites.

[mopinko]

29. well, the recent fury has me depressed.

the warren shitstorm, but other things, too. some of the criticism of his cabinet picks has been pure bullshit. we chase after any flaw, and chink. we cleave to the dark side of things.
after 8 years of an administration that has done everything wrong, can we break the criticism habit is what i am really asking.

[EFerrari]

31. Well, I hear you. Maybe it's a modulation problem.

We have to figure out how to disagree with an Obama government in a productive way where with a Bush government, we were powerless and the stops came out because not only was he an outsider but he was a criminal.

[salguine]

33. I swear to God, one more acronym and I'm going to snap and go up

on top of a tall building with a rifle. What the fuck is "tptb"!?!?

[mopinko]

34. the powers that be.

i don't use very many, so don't shoot at me, k?

[wyldwolf]

37. "tptb" for Carter was the considerably more liberal Democratic congress

[mopinko]

43. oh, come on.

tptb were opec, esp the saudis, and the iranians (whoever might have held the strings there.)
i also believe that the spooks, whichever agency they were working for, pushed him around. the whole east timor episode, i believe, showed that he was getting his arm twisted, as they still do today.

[wyldwolf]

44. The Democratic congress blocked Carter in much of his endeavors

[cooolandrew]

39. I've got his back as long as he's moving us all into a better future for certain.

[Undercurrent]

40. Thank you calm, cool, and collected guys for a

rational discussion. I'm nearly afraid of clicking on threads in the last few weeks, never knowing what I might find. This is a nice respite from that. A good, solid conversation is gold these days!

Anyway, I don't have anything of substance to add. I really should be in bed with the icky flu like symptoms I'm feeling.

Cheers! :fistbump:

[mopinko]

42. thanks. and feel better. np

[Hansel]

45. I think that Obama mentioning Reagan...

as one of a handful of presidents who changed the course of American politics was telling. Reagan was able to bring people on his side by pushing aside the media. He knew how to use humor and a dismissive tone toward the media that ended up pretty much neutralizing their influence and allowed him to mobilize a enamored populous when he needed to get something done.

Obama has studied Reagan and is already setting the table to employ a similar strategy. He has gone a long way toward neutralizing the influence of the media as his stunning defeat of McCain demonstrates. A lot of his win was accomplished by using humor and talking directly to the people without allowing the media to throw him off message.

He is using technology and the internet to communicate with and "give voice" to the American people. He's not just doing this to be a nice guy. He's going to use this resource to put pressure on Congress and the media by moving the populous in mass on every issue he really feels strongly about. This is the one and only thing I've ever known Limbaugh to be correct about.

It is going to be very difficult for blue state Republicans to vote against him. Especially when he makes it a priority to always appear to be reaching out to them. I believe Obama held back on personal attacks during the campaign because he did not want to insult his opponents' supporters. He needs everyone on his side and he has gone a long way to neutralize opposition.

Although I loved both Carter and Clinton, neither were able to successfully do this. Carter didn't have the communication skills, and Clinton was too willing to make enemies. Obama is a uniquely gifted politician and this is the reason I voted for him in the primary. He will achieve whatever he sets his mind to achieve. I truly believe that.