K&R if you think we should pull ALL troops out of Iraq AND Afghanistan

[Ken Burch]

Clearly, staying in either place is gonna be a dead loss(use of "Dead" not coincidental)that will simply make it impossible for the new administration to do anything progressive. As we learned in the'60s, you CAN'T have "guns and butter".

[IndianaGreen]

1. And out of the Middle East altogether!

No money and no weapons for that region, no exceptions!

[mtnsnake]

12. Seconded. Those people just want us the fuck out of their lives.

[billyoc]

2. All imperial garrisons shuttered.

Now.

[aquart]

85. Oh, please.

You aren't a citizen of Disneyland.

[democrattotheend]

3. It would be nice, but hardly practical

I don't claim to be an expert on this, but from what I know, Afghanistan would descend into chaos if we just pulled out abruptly. And we need a gradual withdrawal from Iraq...anyone who says we can just pull out with the drop of a hat is just playing politics.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Afghanistan is already in chaos, with no government outside Kabul

If you guys want to lose another war, go ahead an stay, but all you will get out of it is more pain and suffering.

[iconicgnom]

27. You learned the Republican's lesson well. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Afghanistan was in chaos for many years before our troops went in

But once again our arrogant politicians think the USA can swoop in and save the day for the Afghan people.

[rug]

42. And we can't pull out of Vietnam. God knows what would happen.

[avaistheone1]

67. It would be nice to have an African American president, but not practical.

just not realistic at all.

:think:


I suppose we should think the same thing about these wars.

[democrattotheend]

102. I'm not saying we can't end them

But an instantaneous pullout from both is not practical. At minimum it takes 3 months to redeploy troops, just from an operational standpoint. And I don't think Afghanistan is in a state where we can just pick up and leave without serious repercussions.

[Still Sensible]

86. Agreed... The vacuum that was left in Afghanistan

after their war with the USSR led to the Taliban disaster. Whatever we do, we can't leave another vacuum. And I agree with Obama... get us out of Iraq as carefully as we were careless going in.

[aquart]

88. Yes, and many many many people will die. So?

We could leave the non-Taliban our weapons and see how well that works. Women will suffer horribly as usual. Artworks will be destroyed which can never be replaced.

You know what? It's not our goddamn business and it never was. We helped for ten minutes? Goody. They're tribal. That's their system. They are patriarchal and tribal and they know how to kill each other way better than we do.

It's going to kill them. Whether the nicest or the most vicious will survive, I can't tell you. But it's their business.

And we don't care about them, anyway. We care about the Caspian Basin oil. Our geniuses thought they could take and hold the Caspian Basin from thousands of miles away. WE CAN'T. It's Russia's problem. It's China's problem. It's India's problem. It ain't our problem. They are laughing their asses off because we were tricked into holding that tiger by the tail while their hands stayed clean and we can't figure out how to let it go.

If we leave, people will die. But we have to leave. We should never have gone in the first place.

[Mist]

91. You've summed it up perfectly, aquart. Nothing we do there can possibly help

anyone, other than a handful of oilmen. When will we learn the truth of Kipling's poem, about
"a fool trying to hustle the East"?

[PBS Poll-435]

4. One day, yes.

Today?

No.

[Ken Burch]

19. We aren't actually protecting anything or anyone in either of these places.

It makes no more sense to stay in in Iraq or Afghanistan now than it would have to keep bombing Vietnam to death after 1972(or 1968, for that matter.)

It's a dead loss.

[PBS Poll-435]

56. The difference is that we aren't "bombing" either to "death"

We are attempting to stabilize Iraq and it seems to be working. It isn't perfect, but it is a better situation now than it was in 2005.

Obama agrees with me because Robert Gates has a place in the new administration.


Afghanistan is a different topic all together because it has been f**ked up since the 70s. And it was/is the home of the asshole bin Laden.

[Ken Burch]

73. Afghanistan is fucked up BECAUSE we intervened.

There's no way things would have been worse in Afghanistan if the government we were obsessed with overthrowing in the 70's and early 80's had stayed in power.

[sandspur]

89. It's F'd up cause the soviets invaded. We did not help, but do not forget

that we did not start it. Lots of bad guys there on both sides.

[bigwillq]

6. OUT NOW!

It's a loss cause in the Middle East. These wars will never, ever end.

[polly7]

7. Out yesterday! Including all NATO troops in Afghanistan. n/t

[jgraz]

9. And (especially) the contractors!

[patrice]

8. K! & R!

I've heard that United for Peace and Justice is calling us to NYC April 5 to call for all of the troops to come home.

[Gregorian]

10. Let the UN bring world opinion into this subject. We do not do this alone.

For all I know, it may be better to actually have forces somewhere. The alternative may be worse than none.

But for America to arrogantly presume it can do this alone is just plain wrong.

[defendandprotect]

17. BS . . . we pulled off this crap without UN approval . . .

[leftstreet]

11. K&R

[mtnsnake]

13. K&R

[1monster]

14. K & R

[tomg]

15. K & R

[defendandprotect]

16. K&R --- Pull out NOW . . . !!!

[IsItJustMe]

18. K&R

[TahitiNut]

20. Yup. Thought so from the very beginning in October 2001. K&R

[Norrin Radd]

21. It's always a good idea to remove one's hand from a hornet's nest...

or not place one there in the first place.

[bvar22]

22. Out Now!

K&R

[Malidictus Maximus]

23. The only Americans overseas should be tourists and a few diplomats.

[Sandrine for you]

24. What a childish post. nt

[Ken Burch]

26. That's what you call a rebuttal?

I guess you've admitted you've got no case for backing the status quo. So why back it?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. And such an adult response!

:sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

43. Militarism is a threat to our freedoms

Military recruiters are predators that must be kept away from our children.

[dana_b]

54. yes, and yours is so... adult??

so far 80 of us childish people disagree with you.

[Sebastian Doyle]

25. Not to mention Korea, Germany, Japan, etc.

It's time to end all foreign occupations, and use the United States military only for its intended purpose, defending the United States of America.

[lamp_shade]

28. K&R

[OneBlueSky]

29. k/r . . . n/t

[Kitty Herder]

31. K&R

[fasttense]

34. Peace on earth what a concept. n/t

[La Coliniere]

35. Out as soon as possible,

like within 30 days after Obama takes office. Imagine what good and useful purposes that money could be used for. We never should have gone to war in either country. Just listened to a rrecent Howard Zinn speech on Democracy Now. I'm a Zinnian. War is not the answer. America needs to find another way or we are all truly fucked.

[latebloomer]

37. Yea, and Obama needs to hear this

early and often!

Esca;ated war in Afghanistan?!?

Pull out, stop the carnage, use those untold billions for economic recovery, green jobs, health, education, and alternative energy.

[Baby Snooks]

51. Hear this?

He heard it on November 4th. And his response? He kept the Defense Department of George W Bush in place. At the table. His table. Not our table. Too many are making too much off the "war on terror" and they are who Barack Obama agreed to serve. Without telling the rest of us.

[latebloomer]

103. I'm afraid you're right, Baby Snooks (love your name)

There are degrees, and I know Obama will be much better in some ways, but you don't get to be President without consenting to do the bidding of the big economic/military interests.

[Upfront]

36. K&R

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Out now, but

what we think is clearly not part of what matters. Some of us have learned that lesson already.

[go west young man]

39. That would take real leadership and guts something I'm afraid

Obama lacks. He's too worried about the political costs today to make the move but it will happen sooner or later. Better today than tomorrow.

[yellerpup]

40. Try diplomacy.

When the mission was to capture Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice, we had reason to go into Afghanistan. Now we don't. If we were better at diplomacy, we might have won hearts and minds with food, medicine, and education-- all commodities that Afghanistan needs. K&R :kick:

[pleah]

41. K&R Oh, hell yeah!

[olegramps]

44. It is the responsibility of the entire world to bring about peace and order.

It is my opinion that rather than continue the defamation of the United Nations that we put forth sincere effort to correct its deficiencies rather than attempting to destroy it as has been the goal of the Republicans.

The Republicans have not opposed the United Nations because of its ineptitude, but because it has opposed its misuse of the United States military to achieve their quest of domination solely to enrich a select group of American citizens. They have pursued a relentless campaign to undermine its credibility with exaggerations of its failures without any recognition of its successes in many areas.

What greater hope for peace exists than a revitalized United Nations whose members are committed to peaceful resolution of conflicts? A number of reforms are needed including the revision of veto powers. But, what better hope remains for all of mankind than a world body committed to cooperation and protection of the most vulnerable to exploitation. It my hope the President Obama will see the merit in a more effective United Nations rather than the failed policy of the Republicans who have used hegemony to dominate and which has created so much ill will for our nation throughout the world.

[ensho]

45. K and R

nt

[JoMama49]

46. Of course we should, but then violence would erupt all over

and Obama would be blamed.

[sce56]

47. K&R

No need to make even more enemies over there by continuing to bomb innocents with false intel or even the bounties paid to informants that use our money to enrich themselves while settling an old grudges. Look at the cases of those taken to Gitmo like this one:

A tribal leader, in Paktika province, in south eastern Afghanistan, Nasrat supervised the collection of weapons from his people, as requested by the Americans and the government of Hamid Karzai, and was responsible for guarding them in a compound. Betrayed by a rival, who told a false story about him to the US forces, he was then arrested and sent to Guantánamo, along with his father, Haji Nasrat Khan. The tribal leader until illness left him virtually housebound, Khan was seized after asking what had happened to his son, and was released in August 2006, when he was 72 years old.

With operations like that we only make enemies over there.

[mikita]

48. K&R !!!!!!!

[immoderate]

49. K&R

--IMM

[WatchWhatISay]

50. me too

[FirstLight]

52. I have been thinking this for some time now

Why can't we just bring everyone home and focus on our own housekeeping for a couple years? to hell with the rest of the world, let's get our own house under control.

I know it may sound naieve. but having troops ANYWHERE only increases our vulnerability, costs money we don't have and the troops themselves are worn to the breaking point. In order to heal ourselves, we need to just come home and take care of our own business.

not to mention it may send a message to others that we are serious about diplomacy over troops...

[dana_b]

53. k&r

:kick:

[windoe]

55. K&R

[SKKY]

57. NOT out of AFGHANISTAN!!!

We need to be there, and they want us there.

[leftstreet]

58. Remind me why 'we' need to be there - Oil? Drugs? 'Freedoms'?

I can never keep it straight.

[grantcart]

60. People have a short memory on what a failed state can do

[IndianaGreen]

62. Somalia happened so long ago....

but what happened during the Black Hawk Down fiasco, is still occurring today. There is no functioning government there, at least since the Islamic Courts were toppled by a US financed Ethiopian invasion.

[IndianaGreen]

61. Who is "they," other than the corrupt Karzai?

The war is lost!

[SKKY]

63. Ok, so you'd prefer the Taliban over the "corrupt" Karzai???

Like seeing women get the crap kicked out of them on the streed do you? And just how do you know Karzai is corrupt? Any proof? Because, the Taliban is taking back Afghanistan in large swaths, so if Karzai is corrupt, he must be the worst corrupt leader in the world- can't even keep a hold on his own people.

[Kajsa]

64. not to mention

throwing acid on school children.

:(

[Sebastian Doyle]

70. How is Karzai corrupt?

Well, he's a Bush Crime Family puppet whose previous employer was UNOCAL, who have been trying to build an oil/gas pipeline across Afghanistan since 1997.

[Ken Burch]

74. If Karzai only controls Kabul now, we can assume that's all he'll ever control.

No one with as little popularity or legitimacy as Karzai ever managed to consolidate power.

BTW, the warlords in the rest of Afghanistan are treating the women just as badly as the Taliban did.

[Truth2Tell]

96. No, they don't want us there.

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2008/does_killing_afghan_civilians_keep_us_safe_7900

Civilian casualties also seem to be a key factor in the marked erosion of support by Afghans for the American presence in their country. In 2005, 68% of Afghans rated U.S. efforts in Afghanistan positively, but that number dropped abruptly to 57% in 2006 and to 42% in 2007.

[Mari333]

99. no, we dont. nt

[barbtries]

59. definitely

try peace.

[babydollhead]

65. kick

[Iwillnevergiveup]

66. Rec #95

It's nothing short of murder, really....civilians being slaughtered is NOT collateral damage...is't murder!

[ChiciB1]

68. K&R... n/t

[WillyT]

69. K & R !!!

:kick:

[Smarmie Doofus]

71. K and R. We must at the same time effect a solution to Israel/ Palestine....

... even if we have to impose it on the parties there. (Which we *will* have to do, BTW). It's part of the package. Otherwise the ME will continue to pull us in.

[MajPayne2]

72. If we did,

We can deploy the troops to Baltimore or Detroit. Maybe even New Orleans to assist in rebuilding.

[lostnotforgotten]

75. K&R

eom

[totodeinhere]

76. I support PE Obama's position on this issue.

I know. That's quite a concept for DU.

[Occam Bandage]

77. I don't. nt

[grantcart]

93. I second

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. We should have never gone in in the first place

Instead of financing a military establishment there (including the construction of bases), we should pay reparations to both countries, compensating individuals for losses inflicted by U.S. military actions.

Even that kind of compensation would cost less than continuing the war.

[pasto76]

79. Iraq, yes. Afghanistan, no

The taliban harbored, aided and abetted the guys who orchestrated Sept 11. They are still out there, Al quaeda and taliban. We need to get them.

SGT PASTO

[The Doctor.]

80. Ummm... I agree with your subject line...

but the second part is murky.

Absolutely, the Taliban, an entity I'd been tracking since the late '90s, are a sort that cannot be allowed to get control of Afghanistan again.

There is only ONE good reason to pull out and let them;

They would kill the Opium trade that 'blossomed' after our intervention.

If we pulled our troops out, the operatives we have in place would have a very difficult time raising money for the CIA through the opium trade.

[valerief]

81. K&R

Yep. War sucks. Don't do it and you don't feed the ruling class.

[proReality]

82. K&R n/t

[sandyj999]

83. Definitely!! n/t

[varelse]

84. Yes, bring them all home now

:kick:

[Better Believe It]

87. K & R

[Truth2Tell]

90. Yes, I am sure I want to recommend this thread.

Our survival as a nation depends on this issue more than any other.

[Fire1]

92. Kicked and rec'd

[jeff30997]

94. Let's get the Hell outa there A fucking SAP!!!

:grr:

[Stardust]

95. Absofrickinlutely...K&R

[NOLALady]

97. K & R

[RoccoR5955]

98. K & R

Bring the troops home NOW, and stop spending all this money on the military, when regular people need help.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

100. KICKKICKKICKKICKKICKKICK and KICK!

[HughMoran]

101. OK, so now what?

We've done this a thousand times. You're a DU hero who's #1 on the Greatest Page.


When are the troops coming home?