Look...IT's not "bashing Democrats"...It's just speaking up for the party's principles

[Ken Burch]

And that's all that any other dissenting voices on this site(other than the occasional RW trolls that appear briefly)do.

I wish President-elect Obama well. I wish the agenda his campaign was about well, too. The insiders in our party don't necessarily feel the same way. They may well try to trash this administration the same way they hung Jimmy Carter out to dry before he surrendered to them in 1978 and turned hawk.

The newly increased Democratic Senate majority has my best wishes...and my expectations that it will stand and fight.

The rank and file are asked to "trust" our party leaders. Well and good. But they have to trust us as well, and they and their supporters here need to accept that dissent does no harm.

Let's find ways to work together and let's find ways to communicate better. The critics aren't the enemy. Only the Right is the enemy.

[Ken Burch]

1. Also, if it were just people telling this poster, as a individual, to shut up, it'd be no big deal.

As the old saying goes "I've been thrown out of classier joints than this".

Say what you will. I don't regard rejection of my views as an attack. The only reason this poster has ever spoken up about those who've tried to impose silence or who have mocked dissent on DU is when they tried to silence others.

It's NEVER been about this poster or any one person, campers. It's always been about free speech on DU.

[lostnotforgotten]

2. It Has Amazed Me To Witness The Level Of Intolerance Often Displayed At DU

Maybe others will learn that dissent happens for valid reasons that have nothing to do with a candidate or party per se.

[Occam Bandage]

3. "It's NEVER been about me, campers."

The first reply to an OP by you about you, is a post by you about you. The word "I," or some variant, appears 16 times by my quick count.

[Ken Burch]

4. Necessary to make the point.

In response to your comment, however, the OP has been depersonalized. Happy now?

[leftstreet]

5. Every time you bash a Democrat, God kills a kitten

At least that's what I'm learning around these parts.

:hi:

[truedelphi]

21. There's at least one at my house I'd hand over to Him

Right about now.

Ain't a curtain in good condition left. And the other cats cower. On occasion so do us humans!

[PurityOfEssence]

35. Yep. That god guy's almost always out of line; wonder why we put up with him...

I guess if we suck up to him like we do to the reactionaries, he'll come around, too...

[PBS Poll-435]

6. !!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Ken Burch]

7. Thanks for the lack of a response.

You know that the OP is correct and that it's just about free speech, yet you can't approve of that for some reason.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. ???

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[izzie]

8. I do not trust my leaders 100 percent in any party

Power makes people do odd things and I think power is a strong natural thing like the sex drive. It seems that history shows that rich powerful people have always worked to hold these power at any cost. Some times you get a few that wish to do good but it is a hard battle to fight if your in the middle of people who want to hold power at any ones costs. Look at Congress and it seems that joining the group is a lot easier than fighting the group. Where is Mr. Penny now any how? :banghead:

[TreasonousBastard]

9. Precisely what are those "party's principles"? Every...

time I hear some variant on that phrase, it seems to really mean "my principles."

For myself, I don't give a rat's ass what the "party principles" are. I am a member of the Democratic Party simply because it comes closer to my personal principles than the other one does. And that's even been in in spite of the segregationist Southern Democrats (now Republicans) and corrupt inner city machines.

[Trajan]

10. IF you read the forum rules ....

You will see that 'free speech' does not exist at DU, but it does exist outside of DU ....

There is no locked door leading out ....

I neednt explain anything ...

[Clio the Leo]

12. It's officially 2009, the only enemy in America is.....

... divisiveness. ;-)

[LWolf]

13. Keep trying.

Not that I think it will make a difference, but it's worth repeating, anyway.

[lostnotforgotten]

14. Sadly, I Do Not Trust Any Elected Leaders In This Country Any Longer

Too often they have proven that it is easier to succumb to power than use the power for effective change.

The old phrase "see the new boss, same as the old boss" encompasses much wisdom.

[grantcart]

15. then you should run for office

[lostnotforgotten]

20. Unelectable - Single Atheist

eom

[truedelphi]

22. Oh fer cryin' out loud - Get married

And find Jesus.

Or are you trying to insist on your right to personal happiness!!

:toast:

[PassingFair]

16. There are people here who still defend Joe LIEberman!

They are the "team" or "tribe" oriented people.

Authoritarian-minded peeps within our own party.

They only care about having the winning team.

I don't WANT TO BE ON a team that CHEATS and BULLIES.

[bvar22]

17. K&R

It is NOT about the personalities of the Party Establishment..
It IS about The Policy.
I don't care who is standing at the podium.
If Dennis Kucinich had appointed Warren as America's Pastor, I would be just as outraged.


I am a tireless advocate for PEACE.
I am a tireless advocate for Civil Rights and Equal Protections for ALL....no exceptions.
I am a tireless advocate for Rule of Law, no exceptions for the Elite Class.
I am a tireless advocate for The Constitution.
I am a tireless advocate for The Poor and the Disenfranchised.
I am a tireless advocate for Working Americans.
I am a tireless opponent of the MIC.
I am a tireless opponent to the concentration of Wealth & Power into fewer hands.
I am a tireless opponent to Corporate/Republican Influence INSIDE the Democratic Party.

I WAS all these things when Bush/NeoCons were in power.
I am STILL all these things with the NeoLibs back in power.

I've been here for a long time.
I am not going anywhere.
I am not going to be quiet.
I don't care if the Republicans/Bigots get their feeling hurt.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone




"Centrism !!"....for those who are proud to be "Half-Republican".

[John Q. Citizen]

18. Testify!

[JohnnieGordon]

19. People need to learn the difference between criticism from the left...

and criticism from the right. There's obviously a huge difference. Some people assume any criticism of Obama must be coming from right, and that's ridiculous. I think the centrists know that, they're just trying to shut down critics from the left by claiming they're stealth freepers.

[Radical Activist]

30. We should also recognize

that there are critics to the left of the Democratic Party who will always attack Obama no matter what he does because they want to spread their cynical belief that no Democratic President will ever be liberal enough or good enough. They want to turn people off of the Democratic Party in particular or the electoral system in general.
For example, they will exaggerate how conservative Obama's appointments are and ignore every liberal appointed because it fits in with their agenda of undermining progressive support for Obama. Criticizing Obama's appointments is fine, but when someone repeatedly ignores or stretches the truth to keep making the same point about Obama moving right over and over again it suggests that a person has an agenda or is overly cynical. Progressives haven't been excluded and it doesn't guarantee Obama is a failure, as many on DU would have us believe. Those kind of claims aren't credible or realistic criticism.

That's different than liberals who want to accomplish something productive by trying to move Obama to a more progressive stance. I have no problem with people expressing a marxist/green/nihilist viewpoint against the Democratic Party but I wish they would be up front about their agenda. I don't usually find that to be the case.

[AntiFascist]

23. K&R, excellent points...

It's too bad that we have to try in vain to reach out to people in our own party before any progress can be made on certain issues, nevermind attempting to reach out to the Republican Right.

[UrbScotty]

24. Hear, hear! K&R.

[anonymous171]

25. Exactly. nt

[rhett o rick]

26. First of all we are a society of rules. When you have rules you can’t have “free” anything,

if you consider free as meaning the lack of rules, regulations or control.

Second this blog allows thousands to discuss, dialog and even dissent, but within the rules that you agree to to blog here.

If you think that DU unfairly restricts discussion about Democrats, then obviously you can go elsewhere. There are great blogs that do not have such restrictions.

Fourth, there are people who come to DU with a chip on their shoulder and look to pick a fight. This may be very therapeutic for them. Some times it is kinda fun to play that game. In any case you are not required to play that game.

Fifth, there are those that enjoy going on and on about absolutely nothing worth while. I know, I know, but it keeps me off the street, so to speak.

[BuyingThyme]

27. What is this thread about?

[Ken Burch]

34. It's a response to those who accuse dissenting progressive voices of "Bashing" Democrats

Frankly, that kind of accusation should have stopped forever with the banning of Benchley.

[Radical Activist]

28. How many of these threads have you started?

How about intelligent dissent and accurate criticism? Pointing out weak and exaggerated criticism isn't an act of silencing dissent. Contrived dissent done for the sake of being a dissident isn't productive.

It's amazing how gullible some liberals become when they read any article or post claiming Obama is moving right and disappointing everyone. Some people are prisoners of their own cynicism and negativity and it doesn't help the movement.

[bvar22]

29. For someonme with your screen name....

...and avatar, you are surprisingly conservative.

Is it a joke?....like someone who is overweight being named "Slim"?
or a tall guy named "Shorty"? :shrug:

[Radical Activist]

31. Asking for intelligent dissent is conservative?

Maybe you'd like to explain to me how being gullible, cynical and perpetually negative are liberal values. I wouldn't describe my favorite radical leaders that way.

Passing off inaccurate claims in attempts to paint Obama as more conservative than he really is doesn't help the movement. Obama is the first left wing movement activist to be elected President and I'm sorry to see that some people's cynicism prevents them from being excited about that.

[Ken Burch]

33. Obama may be a "left wing movement activist"

It's going to be hard to see if the values such a person brings in will go anywhere in a cabinet of centrists and insiders.

You can't really be saying we should have been happy about how the transition went.

I hope he surprises us. Nobody here is calling for the guy's head, you know.

[Radical Activist]

40. I remember a poll

it might have been yours, about how centrist the cabinet is that conveniently left out the most liberal appointments. Focusing on the cabinet centrists also ignores the more liberal policy advisers who have a stronger role in setting policy direction in modern presidencies, as opposed to cabinet officials who manage the bureaucracy. You could easily ask how Obama could be centrist when he's surrounded by liberal policy advisors.

So I'd say your view of the cabinet and how it will shape the administration is skewed. And I wonder why many at DU seem eager to focus on the negative, overlook the positive, and assume the worst. That's a personality issue, not an ideological issue.

[Maven]

36. He's an incrementalist "radical"

:eyes:

[bvar22]

37. LOL

The Incremental Radical.


GODDAMMIT! We DEMAND Freedom, Equality, and Representation !!!!!!
but only just a little bit. We don't want to rock the boat or make anyone mad.

[Radical Activist]

39. I'm a no bullshit radical.

[Runcible Spoon]

44. ........

:spray:

[QC]

46. You've noticed that too, eh? n/t

[Ken Burch]

32. Fine, Obama is going to be ok. He's better than Bush or McCain

You'd have to agree, I think, if you actually ARE a "Radical Activist", that progressives had a right to feel hosed with the Cabinet picks and most of the other appointments. If it's possible to get a DLC cabinet to be progressive, that'll be great. Do you really expect it, though?

It's enough that we agree things will be a bit better than the last eight years.

[Radical Activist]

41. I don't know how a rational person

can think things are probably only going to be "a bit better" than they were under the Bush train wreck. He would only have to be marginally competent for things to be dramatically better. Your viewpoint seems unrealistically negative.

[Ken Burch]

43. Actually, I'm hopeful but keeping my eyes open.

You have got to accept that I'm NOT anti-Obama.

[mkultra]

38. yes, let us silence the criticism of those who wish to not be silenced

Pure genius.

I will continue to criticize you and those with your stance just as you will continue to add your voice to the bashing right. Your a fool to bring forth so much bashing and agitation while the right cheers you on. If you want to find a way to work together, then be the change you want to see.

Its no wonder the beat our asses so much. We eat our young!

[PVnRT]

42. I read words in this post, but none made any sense

[Fearless]

45. This goes well with the "Everyone's with the person and not the party thread"

:eyes:

[TheKentuckian]

47. Dissent means voicing your objections

Why does anyone care if people agree with you or not? Allowing dissent means you have the right to to make your case.

What else do you expect? Dissent comes with rebuttal and backlash but such reactions does not stifle your right or ability to express concern, outrage, or a difference of opinion. Just not with any promise that you won't be told to shut up, snickered at, or disregarded.

[wyldwolf]

48. you mean "Ken Burch's" principles

They may well try to trash this administration the same way they hung Jimmy Carter out to dry before he surrendered to them in 1978 and turned hawk.

Carter was a hawk from day one.