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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 10:57 PM
Original message
Barack Obama is a social conservative.
Now that I've finally figured this out I actually feel better about things.

The clues were always there. Obama was born in 1961, the tail end of the Baby Boom. I know this age group well because I'm only a year younger than Obama. I learned in another thread here tonight that there's even a name for us - we're the "Jones Generation." As a group we tend to be more cautious, less optimistic, and generally more conservative than the older boomers.

Those of us born around 1960 did not share the free spirit optimism of the boomers who had been cavorting through the 1970s a few years before us. The chickens sort of came home to roost for us, and when my cohort was in college, a lot of us were more interested in getting high-paying jobs than having sit-ins. Reagan was elected when Obama was 19. Young Republicans were a major force on college campuses at that time, and young Democrats were few to be found. I know this because I was one. On my entire university campus exactly three of us showed up to start a chapter of Young Democrats. There were hundreds of Young Republicans - all clad in dock siders, Lily Pulitzer, and Izod Lacoste. (The memories still make me shudder.)

Obama's mom was 18 when he was born in 1961, and while he may have found his early years exhilerating, I imagine that they were also somewhat frightening at times. P.J. O'Roarke (a boomer who acts like a Generation Joneser) summed this up in one of his mildly amusing but idiotically conservative essays by noting something like (I'm paraphrasing) "People think that the 1960s were the time of peace and love. I remember it as the time of yelling at the dinner table." The point is that for many of us, the 1960s and 70s were a confusing, bewildering, troubling time when our older brothers and sisters (and even parents, in Obama's case) seemed to be causing a lot of trouble and making the grownups mad all the time.

For us later boomers, there were really only two ways to go. Either go with the majority - the Reagan Revolution that was sweeping the country - or hunker down and become an outcast leftie. I became a socialist in college. Like many others in our cohort, Obama became a pragmatist with traditional social views.

Obama is not planning to champion gay rights, women's rights, immigration rights, worker's rights, Palestinian rights, or anything else that makes suburban professional upper-middle class Americans mildly uncomfortable. Obama views the social upheavals of the 1960s with a faint distaste, which he has expressed from time to time during the campaign.

Obama is friendly with Rick Warren, Tim Kaine, and other social conservatives because he generally agrees with their social views.

Where Obama differs from the Republicans is in his economic and fiscal pragmatism. That is where he plans to make his significant policies as president.

Circumstances may require Obama to get more deeply involved in issues of social justice than he would like. But if he does, it will not be because he chose to do so.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. What utter nonsense. n/t
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I agree except for the Tim Kaine gift crony appointment to the DNC
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yeah, that oracle
doesn't seem to be functioning very well.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not in this country.
In this country a "social conservative" is the American analog for the Taliban and we all know it is true.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Eh, tell that to this guy, a self described "social conservative"...
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
134. Just because criminals have co-opted the term is no reason for us to go along with it.
Radical reactionary extremist criminals have gone around calling themselves "conservatives" in the U.S. for so long a lot of people now equate the two. That's one reason the country has been jerked so far to the right.

"Conservative" has a definition, and we would do well to remember it. Obama's positions on social issues such as gay marriage are conservative in the sense that he is comfortable with the status quo and does not see a great need for change. Acknowledging that that is a conservative view allows more progressive views to be heard, and places reactionaries like Dobson where they belong on the scale, which is way to the right of conservative.
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NRaleighLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wrong. I was born in 56, my wife in 57 - we are both way left, social liberals.
Nice theory, but I don't agree...at least based on my/my friends' experiences and outcomes.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. You are five years younger than Obama. Also, I never said that everybody goes this way.
Just the majority of the people born in the early 1960s.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
41. 1956 and 1957 is still Generation Jones
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Could be. All I know is that when I was in college the Young Republicans were everywhere.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. Please explain (she says, listening to Silversun Pickups and born
at the end of 1957)---------------?

Generation Jones?
What the hell is that?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #66
110. Google is your friend
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
160. Baby Boomer generation is from 1944 - 1964. 56-57 is Boomer
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
111. You meant 5 years older right?
Obama was born in 1961...
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #111
123. Yes! Thanks for the correction. Mistyped.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. dup
Edited on Mon Jan-05-09 11:18 PM by Skittles
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. HA! This thread is almost as good as the Raul Castro one earlier.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
113. incredibly, it's even dumber.
it's the lodestar of dumb. Embarassingly so.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Hardly. n/t
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. He seems to have lived a very traditional life in many ways. nt
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GB Observer Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. I was born in 1977. What's my ideology?
This is cool. It's like the horoscope!
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I was born in '75. We are the children of Atari, MTV, and Star Wars. In other words
Edited on Mon Jan-05-09 11:06 PM by Jennicut
we are screwed.

Just kidding. We are Gen Xers. Take it from there.
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
94. Touche.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. You Make Good Points
but I'm not completely buying it.

I think Obama applies the same pragmatism to social issues as he does to economic/fiscal.

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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Exactly
That is precisely it IMO
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. That's essentially what I'm saying. He's not an extremist. He's not a lefty. He's a pragmatist.
Since I'm a socialist with very left-wing social views, I consider Obama to be a social conservative.

So are quite a few of his strongest supporters here on DU, too.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
69. He's A Politician
This is a game politicians play to try to have it both ways. Clinton played it. George W. Bush played it - you know, he fooled a lot of Americans into thinking he was moderate on social issues. In the Spring and Summer of 2008, how many people thought John McCain was Pro-Choice?

Obama is very skilled at this game.

But if you really think he's conservative, what in the heck are Rick Warren and James Dobson? Please don't bring up how Obama is having Warren do the invocation as proof of his conservatism. Nixon went to China, it didn't mean he was a communist.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. Dobson is definitely much more conservative than Obama.
Warren lies all the time so it's difficult to know what he really believes. I hope that Obama sees through his slick talk.

Bill Clinton is socially conservative - very much so. He passed NAFTA against worker's rights, he defunded Welfare, cut Food Stamps, approve anti-gay legislation. It's always been understood that Bill Clinton is a social conservative.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
85. Yeah. I never deluded myself that he was another Kucinich or Wellstone.
He's one of those 'bring the far right wackos and the moderate Democrats together and let's call it a party;' people. Not my cup of tea, but for now I'll take it.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #85
93. This is what I've come to realize. Obama doesn't want to get into messy social arguments.
He views issues like worker's rights, gay rights, women's rights, Palestinian rights as highly inflammatory, polarized and polarizing, interfering with the work he really wants to do.

I happen to disagree with him, and I'll do what I can to keep pushing those messy social issues he hopes to avoid. At the same time, I hope he is highly successful in the other areas.

I want the moon AND the stars. I'm a socialist.
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #93
174. Obama is too cautious. He seems to want to play it safe and not rattle the cages.
That, to me, is status quo. On the other hand, the very essence of him is representative of change. Who knows, perhaps in the first terms, he'll behave as a right-of-center president but will move to the left in his remaining term depending on how things go. I was never under any delusions about who this man is and what he believes. He was never a liberal and I never thought he was.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. social conservatism=Obama? Yeah, okay. I must have hit my head or something.
Obama is not a social conservative. He may be a moderate but a conservative on the broad spectrum is like Ralph Reed, Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, etc. Am I missing something here?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Warren himself says he is like Dobson, and calls for assassinations,
anti-choice, anti-gay, how is this moderate, for example?
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. OK, but we are talking about Obama. I guess that 100% rating by NARAL means nothing...
Cuz SOcial Conservatives dont get those.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Well the poster was citing all these preachy types
Why does Obama not align himself with socially liberal clergy?
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Well, do you remember Father Pfleger and Reverand Wright?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Reverend Wright is an example of the kind of activism that makes Obama uncomfortable.
Bill Ayers is another example. Obama gets along with those folks, but their views are more extreme than his. He's said so over and over again.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. The way you describe yourself. you are too far to the left to accurately say who's liberal and cons.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. I don't get to have an opinion?
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. You can have one, and So Can I.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. I'm not telling you that you aren't qualified to have an opinion.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
71. 'too far to the left' seems to mean gay lately. Just sayin'.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Thats fuckin bullshit Bluebear. The OP describes himself as a Socialist
This has nothing to with being gay at all.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. I'm a woman. But yes, I am a socialist.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. My apologies for calling you a man.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. De nada.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Yes she does
But I have heard time and time and time again here that gay marriage is "too far left".
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. I dont know who said that, but it surely wasnt me.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. Nobody says it was you, but it is a fact that quite a few DUers have said so.
We've been told repeatedly that gay marriage is not a priority, gay rights are not a priority, and other "more important" issues have higher priorities. That is the talk of a social conservative, by my definition.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
70. Yes and Obama has fairly run from those churches.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Obama's personal views on gay rights and abortion are not
the same as these guys. Nice try though. And yes, I am for total gay marriage even though Obama is not. Hence, I think he is a social moderate. He is not for banning it legally, he is for civil unions, he is pro choice, etc.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. You call it social moderate, I call it social conservative.
It's conservative compared to where I'm coming from.

I believe that you and quite a few other DUers are social conservatives as well. No, you're not insane like Dobson, et al, but to me you are pretty conservative in your social views.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. I am for gay marriage how am I a social conservative?
An am pro choice as well. In fact in my state (CT)its legal to marry here if you are gay and my state is very cool for doing that. I think of Obama as a moderate though because of all those nuts on the right. He is not where I want him to be but he is not as extreme as those nutsos. I guess its all where one sits on the political spectrum.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. You're probably little more socially liberal than Obama, but not a great deal.
You support the idea of gay marriage but you don't like all the fussing about it here on DU. You've said so, many times. It's not a priority for you. You're not going to go out of your way to deny people their rights, but you don't want to go way out of your way to make those rights real, either.

You and Obama view this pretty much the same way. You don't want to hurt anybody, but you also don't consider these social issues to be high priorities compared to other issues. Am I correct?

Whereas I am quite extreme on the subject. I'm a socialist. I'm a social liberal. I want to fight for human rights and I don't understand why it isn't everybody's number one priority. In fact, I can't understand why it's even an issue. I don't understand why we aren't a socialist country.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Are you conflating fussing over The invocation to fussing over Gays having the right to marry?
Thats what it sounds like
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. No, I'm drawing a conclusion from the number of people here who have said it's not a priority.
How many times have I read that here on DU - gay marriage is not a priority.

Anyone who doesn't consider it to be a priority is a social conservative, in my definition.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. The United States is too caught up in capitalism to be socialist
Edited on Mon Jan-05-09 11:29 PM by Jennicut
I am just hoping it moves towards the left domestically. I think I am very socially liberal considering I grew up in a very conservative family. I had to rebel- it was too stifling. My mother actually threatened to leave CT after the election. I grew up in a very snooty rich town so being against any of those values made me feel like any outsider. However, I hate seeing people fight in general and get mad at each other but I got the anger and I consider myself on your side. I am not gay so I will never know what it is like and I bet if I was I would be way more upset at Obama over the Warren thing. I wish Obama was better socially but I think its up to the Gen-xers and younger people to fix things on that front, we really have been way more open then previous generations about what being gay is and women's rights and even the race issue. In my town, I was given dirty looks for having a black friend walk around town with my. And this was in 1996 in liberal New England!
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. I think that your views are probably very, very similar to those of Obama.
I'm not criticizing either of you at all. I'm just pointing out that you are different from the fire-breathing social activists of early generations. Neither of you are Bill Ayers by any stretch.

You don't like seeing people upset. You like it when people get along. You don't like drama. You disapprove of people making a big deal out of things. You wish that everybody could simply agree to get along without making excessive demands. Am I close?
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Oh yes! My husband laughs because we never fight. I just don't have it in me.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #64
77. I knew it. Smile.
:)
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. Obama and many of his supporters consider Warren to be "moderate."
That says it all right there. Nobody but a conservative would consider somebody like Warren to be moderate.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. No way is Warren a moderate, he is just as bad if not worse then the rest of em
because he tries to sell himself as so nice and down home good old boy.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Yes, your missing my definition of "social conservative."
Ralph Reed and those others are not "social conservatives" - they are batshit crazy. I'm a socialist with extremely left-wing social views. To me, Obama is a social conservative, as are many others in my age group.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Nope. Social conservatism equals being conservative socially.
Just like fiscally conservative means being conservative with money. Batshit crazy though they are they are considered conservatives. I am a liberal but not a socialist. I am for gay marriage and pro choice and very liberal socially but a little less fiscally.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. We're probably disagreeing over the definitions of these vague terms.
I think that we are in general agreement.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Do Social Conservatives have 100% ratings from NARAL?
That seems like somebody who champions women's rights.
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Hellataz Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. Totally Disagree, I think Obama has a more broad view over social issues then those people
Currently Social Issues may not be his top priority, but i do believe his end game is to create a more tolerate world for all social minorities. I have always felt his personal views on certain social issues are irrelevant because he's made it clear that his personal views have no effect on the policies he would enact for america as a whole. That's what makes him different then the GOP. He may believe something we don't, but he would never try and force it on us. That said, I still don't believe he is reaching out to social conservative people because he shares their views or wants to champion their causes. He's doing it to keep his promise of a more inclusive american government. How many times does he have to mention that Lincoln book before we get it that his goal is to surround himself with people he DISAGREES with.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
60. I'm not saying that he's a bad person. I'm saying that social issues aren't a priority for him.
Nobody knows what his presidency will be like. I doubt that anybody predicted that LBJ would turn out to be a champion of civil rights. Circumstances have a way of interrupting best-laid plans. I intend to encourage Obama to make liberal social policies a priority. I see that it is going to be an uphill battle, but that doesn't mean I won't try.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
104. A Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin
That's the book about Lincoln and it was excellent.
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. We'll see.
I'm glad your at ease at least.

:hi:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. What the hell is the Jones Generation
I was born in '60 and I don't see myself described in your OP. I also don't see Obama as you describe him.

For the love of all things precious, would you give the man a chance to actually take office before you criticize his efforts.



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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Jones Generation is the generation between Gen Xers like me and my parents, the Baby Boomers
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
58. And do they match the definition as contained in the OP?
Do you have a link to something on this generation?

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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. I guess Generation Jones is part of the end of the baby boomers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Jones

Generation Jones is a term used to describe the generation of people born between 1954 and 1965. The term is used primarily in English-speaking countries and Western Europe, although it is used to some degree globally.<1><2><3> The birth years typically used in the U.S. are 1954-1965, but these tend to vary slightly in other countries, usually starting no earlier than 1953, and ending no later than 1968.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #65
97. Thank you for the link.
I suppose you could say that I have been jonesing for a government that actually did right by the citizens and that upheld the rule of law so I suppose Generation Jones does seem to fit for me.

:hi:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
61. Generation Jones..
zidzi (1000+ posts
34. I'd never heard of Generation Jones until this very
survey and now I can tell my kids what Generation they are

“Why the ‘Generation Jones’ Vote
May Be Crucial in Election 2008”
By Peter Fenn Published October 23, 2008 Excerpt:

“The one group that might be worth a special look is the “Generation Jones” voters…they are very much up for grabs in this presidential election and in the down-ballot Senate and House races…as Campaign 2008 enters the final days, keep an eye on these voters — they will be critical to the outcome.” - link to full article

http://generationjones.com/2008election.html

And this link as to why it's called Gen Jones..

<snip>

"Why “Jones”? The name embodies the idea of a large, unknown, invisible generation. And, Mr. Pontell says, this generation has a “Jones,” or longing, for its own identity and for the world it was promised as children but never received."

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1999/11/12/loc_who_is_...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8059166&mesg_id=8060197

Somebody's opinion..
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #61
90. Now I will agree with this descriptor of the generation.
The name embodies the idea of a large, unknown, invisible generation. And, Mr. Pontell says, this generation has a “Jones,” or longing, for its own identity and for the world it was promised as children but never received."


But the OP doesn't seem to include that in her description of Obama, she seems to by-pass the promise that was made to our generation. We were told no more wars, the Vietnam war was the war to end all wars. Never again would our government put our troops in harms way to fight a war that has no purpose and no end.

We were told that civil rights were for all - that equal rights were to be afforded to everyone, no matter your skin color, your sex, your religion or age. That the Civil Rights Act and the Equal Pay Acts were passed to ensure those rights.

We were told that the environment would be cherished and protected, that the government would be a good steward and that ecology was vital to the health of our nation and the world. That the Clean Water Act, 55 mph speed limits, efficient autos with catalytic converters and high gas mileage would always be the norm, not the exception.

We were told that huge corporations were bad for the economy and that monopolies would not be allowed to continue, that the American worker was vital to the strength of this nation and that the workers rights were just as vital to the health of a corporation as are our civil rights to the health of our nation.

The OP seems to think that all we were offered and expect is an easy living making high wages. She is wrong, we were promised and expect so much more. We always have.

She describes Obama as Michael J. Fox's character on Family Ties and she couldn't be more wrong. Fox was a part of Generation Jones but he was not the norm. He was just the most publicized.

Obama is not planning to champion gay rights, women's rights, immigration rights, worker's rights, Palestinian rights, or anything else that makes suburban professional upper-middle class Americans mildly uncomfortable. Obama views the social upheavals of the 1960s with a faint distaste, which he has expressed from time to time during the campaign.


The OP forgets that Michael J. Fox's character never would have given up the high paying and high powered Wall Street corporate lawyer job to work for peanuts to help the disenfranchised and the needy. She forgets that Obama has done more as a community organizer than most of us and she forgets that that the Michael J. Fox character was never stopped by the police for being out of place in a white neighborhood or ever had trouble hailing a cab because of his color.

Obama is no messiah but he is a man who has seen what discrimination can do to the soul of a human. He is a constitutional scholar that knows what the constitution provides and what its limitations caused and how they were lawfully overcome. Equality for all is a given, how we get there is the challenge and I believe he is up to that challenge.

It would appear that the OP is a part of the instant satisfaction society, that if it doesn't happen when she wants on the timetable she has set up, then disappointment occurs. Change does not occur overnight, you can't drive thru some window and order it. For the change to be worthwhile and long lasting, you have to be willing to sacrifice and wait, to labor and to struggle, but most of all, you have to keep the faith and never give up hope, not in yourself or those around you.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #90
95. I didn't have room to put all that in - but you're getting the idea.
I'll ignore your offensive last paragraph.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. Why take offense.
You are the one that believes that Obama will be like Michael J. Fox. I think it is because your expect so much from him today and are not willing to let him take office and set policy, thus the instant gratification needs are going unmet and you are critical and disappointed.

You posted this as a way to soften your own disappointment, disappointment because he hasn't satisfied your needs yet.

I think you need to give him time, what better man to hold the highest office than a man who knows what discrimination can do to the soul and that understands and appreciates the constitution.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
79. In this particular OP I don't believe that I criticized him at all.
If you don't want to talk about politics, why are you on a political message board?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #79
106. You don't see this as a criticism?
Edited on Tue Jan-06-09 12:47 AM by merh
Obama is not planning to champion gay rights, women's rights, immigration rights, worker's rights, Palestinian rights, or anything else that makes suburban professional upper-middle class Americans mildly uncomfortable. Obama views the social upheavals of the 1960s with a faint distaste, which he has expressed from time to time during the campaign.

I believe it is and I believe it does not properly represent what Obama will do as the president and what he is as a man. I've challenged your OP and discussed politics, I am not sure that you have.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. I am curious -
why do you think it took so long for you to figure him out? Its seems your experience in your college years could have lead you to this conclusion much earlier?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Well, not everybody my age is conservative. I'm not.
But it's true, I probably didn't want to acknowledge all the clues. Obama's dismissal of the 1960s and activism in general. His apparent comfort level with clery who aren't comfortable with gay folks. His generally pragmatic views.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. you've never read his books, have you?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
89. Yes, I have, and I don't know why I didn't see this earlier.
It's all there. His pragmatism, his distrust of radical activism, his work with faith-based community builders who tend to be highly socially conservative themselves.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, you understand. I'm not saying he's like the Republicans! I'm just pointing out that when it comes to social issues, Obama would prefer not to lead that charge. His goals are elsewhere.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. Generations Joneser here and always a leftie
I never fell for the nauseating schtick of that evil bastard Reagan and SHAME on anyone who did - and fuck the social conservatives too - they are COWARDS
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Me too, but you know what I'm talking about.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. I just wish his was more economically progressive.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
43. Disagree. If you watched the CNN special just the other night
he talked about how the MLK civil rights era was very interesting to him although he was too young to participate. Also, people that don't care about social issues take high paying jobs and thumb their noses at the rest of us but this man worked on the south side of Chicago in an environment I know all too well. An almost thankless job unless you truly care about the welfare of others. Your first paragraph states that people from this era are less optimistic and that is the total opposite of Barack Obama and his hope and change message that resonates so well for many of us.

How you can say he's not going to get involved with social issues is off base. If you don't like a pick for whatever reason..let that be your reason and leave it at that. I find it amazing that two choices you don't like have suddenly determined the path of the presidency.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Obama was too young for 60's activism. I like that he is past the whole Vietnam thing.
He is our first post-baby boomer president. We only had two but it seems like the Vietnam War was debated to death during the 90's and from 2000 until now.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. He's not a post baby-boomer. He was born in 1961. Boom ended in 1964.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. Okay not post boomer but he is a younger boomer. My parents are 61 and have nothing in common
generation-wise.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #63
83. I am 1960, so I'm almost the same age as your parents.
We do have a lot in common with the boomers, but we also have differences from the earlier cohorts of the boomers, as I said in my OP.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #83
101. Really? I thought you were my age the entire time!
Edited on Tue Jan-06-09 12:31 AM by Jennicut
My parents tell me a lot about the 1960's and all the turmoil they saw. Kennedy and MLK getting assassinated and all the social upheaval. My Dad joined the army because he thought he would be drafted anyways and luckily got a technical position. They both say Carter was a disappointment, my Dad voted for him but my Mom for Ford. My Dad is now the ultra-right wing one (listens to Rush, quotes Cheney, loved Bush) and my Mom is more a moderate Republican, they both love Reagan. Maybe the 60's turned them off. Who Knows? I voted for Clinton in 1996 in my first election and they were not happy, but I voted Dem ever since. My bother is even more to the left then me. I guess we rebelled.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #101
128. I might have misunderstood your post about your parents.
Were they born in 1961 or are they 61 years old? I was born in 1960, one year ahead of Obama.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. You're right. These posts that suddenly have him all figured out
are ridiculous.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. That's a lot of generalizations that I didn't say, but go ahead.
Don't let me interfere.
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Demi_Babe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
48. couldn't disagree more
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
55. I have no doubt about Obama's commitment to social justice
I think that he just plans to fight for it in a way that we're not used to.
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cecilfirefox Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
67. Was for Hillary here to begin with.

And I'll be honest, I don't believe she'd have ever picked Kaine.

There, I said it. You got someone new, fresh, exciting, someone that could talk well and stir your hearts!

Now look what it got you. You could have gotten someone who's tried, tested, etc. But hey, DU's candidate of choice got it. You reap what you sow.

<- Is not happy about the current events of things.

However, I believe Obama will nominate William White for Secretary of the Navy. Now that does make me happy.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Great start to ur DU Career. You should have added, "ready on Day one"
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. You don't know what she would have done because she's not
the president. That's your problem and you need to get over it. Too bad for you he wasn't just DU's candidate. I'm happy with what we've got. You reap what you sow? That's a real smart thing to say about someone who isn't even in office yet. But I suspect you're only here to enjoy the doom and gloom on some of these threads. Don't get too excited though....Obama's approval ratings are sky high! It will be a long 8 yrs for you.
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Balderdash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #72
143. Aren't you one of the ones who's
always talking about how we should have known what we were getting?
Not all of us started out with Obama as first choice. Stop telling
people to get over things. This is a board for Democrats and the
election is over.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. "You could have gotten someone who's tried, tested, etc."
Edited on Mon Jan-05-09 11:54 PM by ProSense
Yikes.

Dodged that bullet. lol.

Was for Hillary here to begin with.


You were here before? You sound familiar.


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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. Deja Vu? n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-05-09 11:59 PM by AtomicKitten
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. You nailed it. n/t
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cecilfirefox Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #88
150. Oh, that's asinine.
It's a name, Gods.

And I am as much a Democrat as the rest of you. I worked for my candidate, accepted her defeat, and then promptly jumped on Obama's bandwagon. But I will not pass up the fact that many of the people upset with his choices supported him in the primary, and now this is what they have gotten. /shrugs. It's what I feel, it's my opinion and I'll say it.

That being said, I'm not on board with some of his recent decisions/appointments, but I think he'll be a good President, I think he'll do good on the issues important to me and the ones closest to me. I also think that after so long, he'll probably make up for how I feel about him now and I'll be fine.

However, this is what I feel at the moment. :)

- Cecil
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #86
157. Oh knock it off - it's "cecilFIREfox"
Good grief this place is pathetic.

:hi: cecilfirefox. Welcome to DU.

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cecilfirefox Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. lol, thanks. :)

Can you, or anyone else, tell me by chance how to get an image attached with my posts? Like you have? I'm trying to find the menu option but I must be passing it up.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. Sure
Up on the top menu, choose Options. In there, on the left, there's a link to "Edit your profile". On that page, there's a place to set your "Avatar Image". DU provides a bunch of them but you can upload your own from there as well.

Try not to let the response to your first few 100 or so posts get you down - we specialize in knee-jerk accusations here sometimes. ;)
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cecilfirefox Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #159
166. Tell me about it! ;) nt!
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #67
92. I think that Leon Panetta was a good choice for CIA.
In areas like national defense, the economy, the budget, the environment, renewable energy - that's where I expect Obama to shine. That's where he wants to make his mark.

He does not want to become "bogged down" in hot button social issues, which he views as highly divisive, inflammatory, and not as important as his higher priorities.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #67
129. The Clintons are just as socially conservative as Obama, if not more, in my opinion.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
91. Dear Yardwork,
I appreciate your struggle to find a reasoned context for your disapproval with our (god DAMN he's awesome) president elect, and I'm delighted that you actually "feel better about things".

I'll just take your word for that part.

Your explanation, vis-a-vis his being a product of the conditions of a particular "generation", while interesting, are grossly oversimplified.

I could point to any number of factors that would be significantly more powerful than that in the development of his character and outlook. These would include the specific character of each of his parents, the different countries, communities and socio-economic demographic within which he lived and those many other major and minor other factors that might be itemized under the headings "nature" and "nurture".

It might just be that you've not had the privilege of knowing a renaissance man, global thinking, timelessly remarkable person such as Barack Obama.

And it seems foreign to you.

And what we don't understand, we fear.

Cheers!

NYC_SKP
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. Agree with every word....Nobody can tell me that a south side of
Chicago guy who worked in the trenches with people won't champion the rights of others.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. Anyone who read his books knows he is passionate about social justice.
These kind of predictions are self-serving, grotesquely unfair, and way off the mark.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #99
103. With the diversity of his background and his experiences, comparing his life
with anything like a typical American of the same age is pointless.

And to even apply the theory of the OP to all of that generation is pretty weak.

We didn't ALL go for the high paying job, for example.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #103
107. I am bewildered by some of the impressions people have of him. n/t
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #103
140. It's true that the generation thing may be somewhat tenuous.
However, if you read my OP and my many responses on this thread, you'll note that I'm not making a broad generalization - I certainly would never say that any theory applies to "all" of any generation.

Moreover, you seem to have ignored much of my OP, specifically that part where I talk about the two paths that our generation tended to take, one of which was to become rather radical in our views. I am socialist with very left-wing social views.

All I'm saying is that Obama's views on many social issues are conservative, and that is reinforced by everything he himself has said except a few of his broader campaign promises.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #96
109. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #96
130. I think you may have misunderstood my point.
No, I don't think that Obama will "champion" major civil rights reforms. That doesn't mean that he's against civil rights! I'm just saying that he is likely to let the status quo on social issues continue more or less as they are now.

Most of the people I've worked with in the trenches on community health issues over the past two decades are very conservative on social issues. They work hard to help poor people get access to health care, jobs, housing, and social services. But, they tend to have fairly conservative views on issues like gay marriage, sex education in schools, etc. There are exceptions, but in general community organizers are socially conservative.

I think that you may be confusing my term "social conservative" with the radical extremists who have taken over the Republican Party. They're not "conservative." They're reactionaries.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
100. His record in Illinois contradicts your essay
a pretty significant deficiency your argument did not address.

in fact, you offered scant facts to support any of your assertions.

about the only facts you offered were Obama's birth year, the age of his mom when he was born and who he is "friendly with".

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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #100
105. No, really it doesn't.
But you're making the claim, so I'll leave the burden of proof with you.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #105
116. I'll do it for them, because you are so far off the mark its laughable...
http://ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm

Strongly Favors topic 1:
Abortion is a woman's right

Expand access to contraception; reduce unintended pregnancy: Favors topic 1
Rated 100% by NARAL on pro-choice votes in 2005, 2006 & 2007: Strongly Favors topic 1
Voted against banning partial birth abortion: Favors topic 1
Stem cells hold promise to cure 70 major diseases: Favors topic 1
Trust women to make own decisions on partial-birth abortion: Strongly Favors topic 1
Extend presumption of good faith to abortion protesters: Favors topic 1
Pass the Stem Cell Research Bill: Favors topic 1
Protect a woman’s right to choose: Strongly Favors topic 1
Supports Roe v. Wade: Strongly Favors topic 1
Sponsored bill providing contraceptives for low-income women: Favors topic 1
Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance: Strongly Favors topic 1
Ensure access to and funding for contraception: Favors topic 1
NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion: Strongly Favors topic 1
NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP: Favors topic 1
YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives: Favors topic 1
NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions: Favors topic 1
YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines: Favors topic 1


Strongly Favors topic 2:
Require hiring more women & minorities

Racial equality good for America as a whole: Favors topic 2
Keep the promise of equal pay for an equal day’s work: Strongly Favors topic 2
Fight job discrimination to give women equal footing at jobs: Strongly Favors topic 2
Include class-based affirmative action with race-based: Favors topic 2
Better enforce women’s pay equity via Equal Pay Act: Strongly Favors topic 2
Supports affirmative action in colleges and government: Strongly Favors topic 2
Opposes CA Prop. 8, one-man-one-woman marriage: Strongly Favors topic 2
America’s race and class problems are intertwined: Favors topic 2
Get minorities into home ownership & global marketplace: Favors topic 2
Ending racial profiling is part of fight for justice: Favors topic 2
Sponsored bill for a Rosa Parks commemorative postage stamp: Favors topic 2
Rated 100% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance: Strongly Favors topic 2
Recognize Juneteenth as historical end of slavery: Strongly Favors topic 2
Re-introduce the Equal Rights Amendment: Strongly Favors topic 2
Reinforce anti-discrimination and equal-pay requirements: Favors topic 2


Favors topic 3:
Same-sex domestic partnership benefits

Gays should not face discrimination but should not marry: Opposes topic 3
Decisions about marriage should be left to the states: Opposes topic 3
Homosexuality no more immoral than heterosexuality: Favors topic 3
We need strong civil unions, not just weak civil unions: Favors topic 3
Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality: Favors topic 3
Marriage not a human right; non-discrimination is: Favors topic 3
Include sexual orientation in anti-discrimination laws: Favors topic 3
Increase funding for AIDS treatment & prevention: Favors topic 3
Rated 89% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance: Strongly Favors topic 3
Provide benefits to domestic partners of Federal employees: Strongly Favors topic 3
NO on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage: Strongly Favors topic 3


Opposes topic 4:
Teacher-led prayer in public schools

Listening to evangelicals bridges major political fault line: Favors topic 4
Religious concerns ok, if translated into universal values: Opposes topic 4
Rated 100% by the AU, indicating support of church-state separation: Strongly Opposes topic 4
NO on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration: Opposes topic 4

Opposes topic 8:
Death Penalty

Pushed Illinois bill to videotape all capital interrogations: Opposes topic 8
Some heinous crimes justify the ultimate punishment: Favors topic 8
Videotape all capital punishment interrogations: Opposes topic 8
Death penalty should be enforced fairly and with caution: Favors topic 8
Death penalty should not discriminate by gang membership: Opposes topic 8
Battles legislatively against the death penalty: Strongly Opposes topic 8


Opposes topic 19:
Drug use is immoral: enforce laws against it

Look at needle exchange; and expand treatment: Strongly Opposes topic 19
Fight to rid our communities of meth: Favors topic 19
Expand drug courts; help prisoners with substance abuse: Strongly Opposes topic 19
2001: questions harsh penalties for drug dealing: Opposes topic 19
Not first candidate to use drugs, but first honest about it: Opposes topic 19
Smokes cigarettes now; smoked some pot in high school: Favors topic 19
Admitted marijuana use in high school & college: Favors topic 19
Deal with street-level drug dealing as minimum-wage affair: Opposes topic 19
End harsher sentencing for crack vs. powder cocaine: Opposes topic 19
Require chemical resellers to certify against meth use: Favors topic 19





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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
102. Close, but you missed the biggest issue of all
Every single one of your points was right on the money. But you missed the biggest, most notable point of all.

Conservative social thinking is almost entirely the realm of white guys. And that's how Obama was raised. You even pointed out that his social views match "Rick Warren, Tim Kaine, and other social conservatives because he generally agrees with their social views." Yes.

So let me fix your clinching paragraph:

"Obama is not planning to champion anyone's rights - including blacks - or do anything else that makes suburban professional upper-middle class white Americans mildly uncomfortable. Obama views the social upheavals of the 1960s with a faint distaste, which he has expressed from time to time during the campaign."

I am not hating the guy. He's my guy. But lets just be clear about what we bought. He is not a rights guy. He is not part of any group that might need rights. If we close our eyes, we will see things more clearly. Obama has as much in common with Kaine and Warren as he does with me, and I am a black man.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #102
114. Spoken like a true Mainlander. Barack Obama was raised in the most multi-ethnic place imaginable...
"Conservative social thinking is almost entirely the realm of white guys. And that's how Obama was raised." With all due respect, I don't think so.

For one thing, Hawai'i and Indonesia are not the places you would raise any child to "think white" (whatever that is to you). Surrounded on all sides by Pacific Islanders and Asians, Barack Obama's mother did her best to give him a sense of his own identity as an African American; whether or not you have personal doubts about some sort of authenticity, it gave him a place to begin. Also, his family in Hawai'i was not unusual in being biracial, far from it.

For another, despite the strong Democratic history of Hawai'ian politics since WW II, the large Asian-American part of the population tends to be socially conservative -- or at least that was the case during the decades I lived there. The desire for justice and fairness and equality and all that were givens, particularly for the generation that came of age in WW II and had to prove themselves in the 442nd; but a certain cast of mind that values strong family ties, respect for elders, order, education, thrift, and so forth was also present in much of the population. It's not about color.

I am fascinated at the extent to which so many see so many different things in Barack Obama. It's only very recently that there have been a few articles printed in the media attempting to come to grips with the influence of Hawai'i on him. One that was published in an Asian-American journal said forthrightly that he is the first Asian-Pacific Islander US president, and laid out the case for that based on the influences of where he was raised. Another was by a Buddhist from Thailand who attended Harvard at the same time as Obama, although they never met: this person looks at him through the lens of his own worldview. The New York Times chimed in on Obama's calm demeanor and desire to bring harmony by doing a little digging into the Hawai'ian culture with people who actually live there ... If you're interested at all, here's a few links.

http://www.bangkokpost.com//211108_Realtime/21Nov2008_real001.php
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/25/us/politics/25obama.html?_r=1
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1856583,00.html

The MSM keeps referring to Maya Soetoro-Ng as his "half-sister" which imo is too bad. She's his sister. Nonetheless, look at the Hawaiian family he has: when he and Michelle visit with the girls, they are the African-American contingent of a quintessentially "local" family: Haole, Indonesian, Chinese, and the ones who live on the Mainland bringing the kids home to soak up Island culture.

I don't know what the future will bring, but I am very interested to see what it is. I'm glad you don't "hate" the guy, because I think you're interested too. :-)

Hekate







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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #102
124. Thank you for reading and thinking about my post.
I think that a lot of responders to my OP read just the subject line and then barely skimmed the rest of my post.

And, of course I left out a lot more that I could have said, more evidence I could have cited, etc. In fact, it's probably tenuous to use the generation thing as the premise, but I was riffing off an earlier thread on her last night that talked about this Jones Generation thing. The generation thing is only a small part of the equation. As you say, the way Obama was raised, etc. also play a big part.

You said it! You get my point. I'm not hating Obama at all. I'm just recognizing that social issues are not likely to be his priority. He's going to try to focus on some other things - economy, budget, international relations - which are also very important.

That doesn't mean that social issues might not become his priority. Presidents can't predict what might happen. As I mentioned upthread, who would have guessed that LBJ would become a champion of civil rights? He definitely didn't plan it that way - but it happened.

I'll just repeat your paragraph here because it says it so well:

I am not hating the guy. He's my guy. But lets just be clear about what we bought. He is not a rights guy. He is not part of any group that might need rights. If we close our eyes, we will see things more clearly. Obama has as much in common with Kaine and Warren as he does with me, and I am a black man.

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
108. You can't really lump Obama in with people his own age
Edited on Tue Jan-06-09 01:05 AM by starroute
The Jack Abramoffs and Ralph Reeds of his age were part of Reagan-era movement conservatism. They were being plugged into relatively high-profile think-tank jobs and such by 1983-84, and those were the years that shaped them. They also were heavily influenced by the conservatives of an earlier generation that they associated with in groups like CNP.

Obama spent his childhood mostly in Indonesia and then in multi-ethnic Hawaii. He graduated from college in 1983 and spent the peak years of the Reagan administration, from 1983 to 1988, as a community organizer -- hiding out, if you will. There was simply no way he could have absorbed Reagan-era social conservatism during those years.

He then attended Harvard Law School -- where he was presumably associating mainly with people five years younger than himself -- followed by another five years back in Chicago, doing more community organizer stuff, teaching law, and writing.

That is simply not the resume of a social conservative. It is not the resume of someone who could ever have spent much time hanging out with social conservatives -- unless you count the people of the black churches that he would have known in Chicago. Obama may be a pragmatist by temperament, and something of a technocrat. His wandering childhood may have left him with a hankering for stability. But he knows what side he's on, and that is not the side of the wealthy, the side of bigots, or the side of exploiters.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #108
131. I NEVER said that Obama is on the side of bigots or exploiters!
That is not what I said at all.

Also, I don't consider Abramoff and Reed and the others to be true "conservatives." They are radical reactionary extremists. In fact, many of them call themselves neo-liberals, for good reason.

Just because criminals have co-opted the term "conservative" in this country is no reason for us to go along with them. Pointing out that Obama's social views are fairly conservative is not the same as saying that he is like James Dobson.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
112. Is this a stream-of-consciousness thread trying to come to grips with Warren?
I don't see, among other things, how a man who won the endorsement of NARAL over his female primary opponent is considered to be socially conservative when it comes to women's rights, nor do I think it's fair to dismiss Obama out of hand as not wanting to deal with "messy" issues.

I realize the Warren pick has taken many people aback in a big way, but does it justify a wholesale generalization (or perhaps a write-off) of his ideology before we even see what he enacts?
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #112
118. someone just doesn't like the guy
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #118
137. You've totally missed my point.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
115. Don't agree
I am hard pressed to find any consistency between the picture you paint and the community organizer that he was.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #115
136. Obama was a community organizer with faith-based groups.
They tend to be socially conservative, in that they hold fairly old-fashioned ideas about gay people, women's rights, sex education, etc. The focus their efforts on economic priorities, including getting health care, housing, and services to those in need. I've worked in this world for decades.

I'm not saying that Obama is a bad guy or that he doesn't care about people's rights. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that he's not likely to make a priority to expand civil rights. He's going to be more comfortable leaving things as they are in that area, and focusing his efforts on fixing the economy, international relations, etc. There's plenty of work to be done in this areas and he has my support.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
117. that's a lot of words but it amounts to a steaming pile of horse shit.. sorry
Edited on Tue Jan-06-09 10:34 AM by dionysus
what is with the insanity going on of people soiling themselves in outrage and the man hasn't even been sworn in? you're making shit up to justify your dislike of obama. this is bullshit.

have one, i think you need it;
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
119. Obama is moderate to conservative on social issues
Great essay, by the way. I understand where you're coming from "feeling better about things" now that you have figured this out. I think I'm in the same boat. It's less disappointing when Obama makes a conservative move by understanding that he has a strong conservative side to himself. If he decides to throw we liberals a bone, then it's something to get excited about. But I don't expect him to do this very often - especially as it applies to civil rights for LGBT folk.

If he follows through on his campaign promises for us, then we will all be better off. But I'm not holding my breath on a time frame, and I don't expect that he will go above and beyond what he said he would do as POTUS.

He is poised to be a great American president if he can lead the country out of its economic morass. But the scales have fallen away from my eyes when it comes to social policy. I'm still waiting for bones to be thrown to his liberal supporters, but that may happen once he begins governing.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #119
125. Thank you.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
120. And an economic conservative too.

So what's left to like?

The reason so many liberals like him is that they are actually conservative too. saying they're liberal just makes them feel better.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. An economic conservative would never propose increased regulation
and infrastructure projects. Nice try.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #120
127. Many liberals are extremely conservative about social issues, I agree.
I'm not sure that I agree that Obama is an economic conservative, but maybe he is - in any case, our economic system has been so pulled down by criminal behavior, if he can get it back on track and get reasonable regulation functional again that alone will make his presidency a success. It will help all of us.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
122. most Americans are. the question: will it translate to policy decisions? nt.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #122
126. Thank you for stating that most Americans are social conservatives.
That's simply a fact at this point.

In terms of policy decisions, who knows? I can't predict what will face Obama. What I am predicting is that Obama won't choose to lead the charge on what he appears to perceive as divisive and polarizing social issues. He would prefer to use his political capital elsewhere.
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apnu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
132. OP: Read his book "Audacity of Hope"
If for anything you get a sense of the man and how he thinks. This is not an attempt to change your mind, but to help you understand how our next President thinks and where he's coming from. But yes, in terms of "progressiveness" he is short. He's a solid, old fashioned, self-described, FDR liberal.

I recommend that everybody read this book, even if you disagree with him and his positions to any extent. Understand the man that will have an enormous impact on the next 4 years of your life.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #132
135. I have read it, and it reinforces my point.
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apnu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #135
139. I won't disagree with you there.
What I find distressing is the number of people who thought Obama was some how progressive. Granted his campaign willfully blurred the lines by using very hopeful language to suggest progressiveness, but to be truthfull, Obama has never lied or mislead anybody on his positions.

I think with the demise of the progressive wing's choices (DK, IMO was the only real progressive that threw his hat in the ring) lead us to pick Obama because he was the last man standing that wasn't Hillary Clinton. Who by no stretch of the imagination could ever be called progressive. I think we progressives were left with out a voice in the primaries (as usual) and fell behind the next best thing, which turned out to be Obama. His rise and seizure of the progressives in the field of Democratic "groups" reminded me greatly of Howard Dean. I'd never call him progressive either, a good liberal, yes, but certainly not progressive. However Dean was, for a time, the darling of the progressives in the 2004 campaign and to some extent, still is.

I'm glad you read the book, I'm working my way through it now and I've found it very illuminating. I don't agree with him 100% of the time, and where I disagree, I disagree deeply with his positions (Warren and Religious inclusion in government) but I don understand where he's coming from and why he makes these decisions.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. I agree with all your points. I've never said that Obama lied.
His campaign did suggest a stronger interest in social activism than I think he actually plans, but campaign promises, well, we know.

The Clintons are even more conservative than Obama, and they're conservative in an area where he is not - economic oversight. Obama is the better choice as president. And he's certainly far better than any Republican.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
133. He's a mainstream democrat in the tradition of FDR, HST and JFK
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
138. Stereotyping by birthyear...
Guessing what people will do and won't do based on when they were born is one of the dumbest obsessions of this era.

I was born in 1959, and I'm not like either of the polar opposites you describe. Please abandon this silliness and look at what Obama has pledged, in writing, to do.
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Hawaii Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
142. He is????
Look, I don't like Rick Warren speaking at the inguaration, but I still don't think Obama is a social conservative, God I hope not...

:banghead:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm#Abortion

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
144. And George Bush is an anarcho-syndicalist. nt
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. Very funny. I agree with a lot of what the anarcho-syndicalists say.
I doubt that either Obama or George W. Bush agrees with them.

Anarcho-syndicalists view labour unions as a potential force for revolutionary social change, replacing capitalism and the State with a new society democratically self-managed by workers. Anarcho-syndicalists seek to abolish the wage system, regarding it as "wage slavery," and state or private ownership of the means of production, which they believe lead to class divisions. Not all seek to abolish money per se. Ralph Chaplin states that "the ultimate aim of the General Strike as regards wages is to give to each producer the full product of his labor. The demand for better wages becomes revolutionary only when it is coupled with the demand that the exploitation of labor must cease."
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #146
148. But George Bush grew up during the time of political ferment that shaped anarcho-syndicalism.
Edited on Tue Jan-06-09 02:48 PM by Occam Bandage
And he has many anarcho-syndicalist cabinet members and friends who are obviously influencing his thought. For instance, he has an entire cabinet-level position dedicated to labor, and has not attempted to ban unions as a good libertarian would. Moreover, he's talked about "Democracy" and "ownership" frequently, both common "code words" in the anarcho-syndicalist movement.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
145. How sad it would be if a wide-view anthropologist mom raised a social conservative!
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. Happens all the time.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. It does?
It's possible I guess, but the service for Barack's grandmother was held at a Unitarian church, not exactly popular with social conservatives.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. Actually, the UU church probably is fairly popular with social conservatives.
It's not popular with batshit crazy reactionary right-wing extremists, who have co-opted the "conservative" word and convinced most of the U.S. (and apparently most of DU) that they are conservatives.

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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #151
154. I've never come across social conservatives in any of the UU churches...
...I've attended, either as a visitor or a member. They've all been very liberal.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
152. What happened to Obama being "the most liberal Senator"
mantra the right keeps chanting?

And how does one square this newest claim that he is a "social conservative" with Obama's record which clearly shows just the opposite?

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #152
156. The right is lying, as usual, and their definition of liberal is not accurate.
My reading of Obama's record is that he has been a right-centrist throughout his career. He has not "championed" any seriously progressive social cause. For example,

Obama has stated that he is opposed to gay marriage for religious reasons. This is a conservative point of view. He is generally happy with the status quo. He might help repeal DOMA or Don't Ask Don't Tell but it's certainly not been a centerpiece of his platform and he's clearly signaled that he doesn't plan to push anything like that anytime soon.

Another example is abortion rights. Obama is generally happy with the status quo. He's not planning to expand reproductive rights. As a legislator, he chose not to stand in the way of radical reactionary right-wing efforts to limit women's rights. He just didn't vote.

Same with worker's rights. Obama is not going to champion unions. He is not going to insist that corporate America significantly reform to provide better rights. In fact, Obama generally sides with the corporations on this.

Health care. Obama's plan is an incremental, conservative, cautious approach that falls far short of universal single-payer coverage. Obama's position is far more conservative on this issue than that of Richard Nixon.

The problem we're having is that the Republicans claim to be conservative but they're not. They've moved way right of conservative, and by moving the definition so far to the right, they've effectively moved everyone else to the right.

We don't have any progressive leaders right now, or very damn few. The only way to change that is to bring the definitions back to reality.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #156
161. Obama's fooled a lot of people then
GAY RIGHTS:

WASHINGTON–The Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s largest gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender civil rights group, today announced that the organization will endorse Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) for president of the United States. The decision was made by the HRC Board of Directors based on Senator Obama’s support for GLBT equality, his demonstrated leadership, and his unwavering commitment to civil rights.
...
Senator Obama supports federal benefits and protections for same-sex couples, a fully-inclusive Employment Non-Discrimination Act and hate crimes legislation, comprehensive sex education, the repeal of the military’s "Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell" policy, and increased funding for HIV/AIDS. He opposes the federal marriage amendment and bans on adoption by GLBT people. Senator Obama participated in HRC’s and Logo’s historic presidential forum in 2007, and submitted HRC’s presidential questionnaire.
http://www.hrc.org/10571.htm

ABORTION RIGHTS:

Today, NARAL Pro-Choice America PAC is proud to endorse Sen. Barack Obama for president. Sen. Obama has been a strong advocate for a woman's right to choose throughout his career in public office. He steadfastly supports and defends a woman's right to make the most personal, private decisions regarding her reproductive health without interference from government or politicians.

"Sen. Obama has been a leader on this issue in the United States Senate. Since joining the Senate in 2005, he has worked to unite Americans on both side of this debate behind commonsense, common-ground ways to prevent unintended pregnancy. Sen. Obama supports legislation to provide our teens with comprehensive sex education, prevent pharmacies from denying women access to their legal birth-control prescriptions, and increase access to family-planning services.
http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/election-pr/pr_05042008_obamaendorsement.html

******

We are very excited to officially endorse Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) for president of the United States. The board of the national Planned Parenthood Action Fund voted unanimously to recommend endorsing Sen. Obama, a decision ratified by Planned Parenthood's local action organizations, which represent the interests of all 99 Planned Parenthood affiliates.

Sen. Obama received a 100 percent rating from the Planned Parenthood Action Fund. This stands in stark contrast to the radically anti-choice Sen. John McCain's zero percent rating.
...
Sen. Obama supports the Freedom of Choice Act, which would codify and protect a woman's right to choose.
http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/campaigns/268.htm


WORKERS RIGHTS:

The AFL-CIO today endorsed Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) for president.

The AFL-CIO General Board, which voted to endorse Obama, includes presidents of all 56 unions in the AFL-CIO, as well as Executive Council members and representatives of state and local federations, trade departments and constituency groups. The General Board votes by per capita membership. In conjunction with the endorsement, the AFL-CIO launched a new website: Meet Barack Obama.
...
In announcing the endorsement today, AFL-CIO President John Sweeney said, “Barack Obama has proven from his days as an organizer, to his time in the Senate and his historic run for the presidency, that he’s leading the fight to turn around America.” Saying, as a champion for working families, Obama knows what it’s going to take to create an economy that works for everyone, not just Big Oil, Big Pharma, the insurance companies, the giant mortgage lenders, speculators and the very wealthy. We’re proud to stand with Sen. Obama to help our nation chart a course that will improve life for generations of working people and our children.
http://blog.aflcio.org/2008/06/26/afl-cio-endorses-obama-launches-meet-barack-obama/

HEALTH CARE

As for the contention that Obama's health care plan is "is far more conservative...than that of Richard Nixon," well, I'll let Hillary Clinton speak to that:

"To create a health care system that is universal, high quality, and affordable so that parents no longer have to choose between care for themselves or their children or be stuck in dead end jobs simply to keep their insurance...Those are the reasons I support Barack Obama. And those are the reasons you should too."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/united_we_can_build_a_better_a.html

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. Apples and oranges! I voted for him, too, and sent him money. Of course he's better than McCain.
Of course these organizations endorsed him. What reasonable organization would have endorsed McCain? That doesn't address my point at all.

Nixon proposed a universal health care plan that would have covered all Americans. It was shot down by the AMA. Obama's plan is far more....conservative. As was Hillary's Clinton's plan.

The entire country is more conservative than it was when Nixon was president. That's the POINT of my thread.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #162
167. So you really think they endorsed Obama
just to spite McCain?

Even though the HRC, NARAL, Planned Parenthood and the AFL-CIO each listed specific reasons and accomplishments of Obama, they only endorsed Obama because....what....he was slightly better than McCain?

And considering this country just elected the first African-American to be President of the United States, I think that alone dispels any belief that "the entire country is more conservative than it was when Nixon was president."

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #167
168. Are you serious? OF COURSE they endorsed Obama so that McCain wouldn't win.
I am floored by your comment. Are you new to politics?
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #168
169. Duh!
But you are implying that the one and only reason they endorsed Obama was to spite McCain, as if they really didn't believe in their endorsements and lied in their endorsements for Obama just so McCain wouldn't win.

In other words, what you seem to be saying is organizations like HRC, NARAL and Planned Parenthood have no ethics and simply endorse the Democrat because it's a Democrat.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. I didn't say anything like that. We are clearly not communicating.
Where did I ever say anything like that? Spite? Lied? No ethics?

Seriously - did you read my post or are you just making things up?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
153. All the more reason to protest loudly...

Obama and the courts may have something in common, then, in that they want to bring about as much social stability as possible. If we make it clear that we do not tolerate Religious Right interference in our government whatsoever, then their work should be to restore the stability.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. Exactly. And by restoring the definition of conservatism, we move the argument back to the left.
The U.S. has moved further and further to the right in my lifetime. Why? Partly because we've allowed the Republicans to move from merely conservative to extreme reactionary right-wing, bordering on fascism. But they still call themselves "conservatives," and millions of Americans still believe them.

If George W. Bush is only "conservative," then Obama must be very liberal, right? And so Obama's stances are "extreme," according to "moderates." The problem with that entire argument is that George W. Bush is not "conservative." He's a neo-liberal extremist nut.

We've allowed the Republicans to completely redefine the term "conservative" and as a result they can get away with murder (literally) while still claiming to be moderate conservatives.

No. Let's put the definitions back.

Obama is conservative on most issues, as are almost all Democrats. The Republican Party is not conservative now. It is extremist radical right-wing.

We have almost zero true progressives in Congress. Even Dennis Kucinich was anti-choice until a few years ago. We don't have a single elected official on the national level championing gay rights, universal health care, or unions. Not one.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
163. You Know I Really Think It's Much More Simple Than This
I think it simply a matter of 'dancing with those who brought you.'
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
164. Fantastic post, as usual, yardwork! Well thought out points that make sense.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. Thank you. You are one of the few who feels that way, apparently!
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #165
176. Honestly, I think some people are too afraid to speak the truth.
I'm glad you aren't!
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
170. If a social conservative is defined by not looking to tear down the order
and a social progressive is defined by being outfront on civil rights issues then what is a social moderate? Or have we nixed that area and you're either conservative, progressive, or a batshit reactionary?

Obama is more liberal than the majority of the country on nearly every issue but I recognize he is generally to the right of me but that doesn't make him contextually a conservative, I don't buy that. One day, I want to be able to be a moderate in this country but to think that is the case simply ignores the context of the environment.

I will say that Obama is (little c) conservative mentally. He is careful, cautious, calculating, and isn't a risk taker or a remaker of the wheel unless the old one is unworkable but that mental approach does not directly correlate to politics. The shrub was far from conservative in approach or mindset nor was Reagan, though HW was.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #170
172. I don't see that you have any major difference with my OP except perhaps choice of words.
We can argue over whether Obama is a "social moderate" or a "social conservative" or maybe a "social moderate-conservative" or a moderately conservative social moderate, but you seem to get my general drift.

I don't claim to be writing a textbook or to be laying out scientific definitions.

In my opinion, Obama is a (little c) conservative on social issues, which is what I said.
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
173. Read "Audacity of Hope" and then do your research on his IL and US Senate records
....there you will conclude that he is neither conservative nor liberal but a moderate or Centrist.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #173
175. If you read the thread, you will learn that I have already read his books.
I my opinion he is a conservative. I know that he calls himself a moderate or centrist. I call it conservative. These aren't hard and fast definitions.

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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #175
177. If you've read his books, it's impossible to understand why you would think he's
a social conservative.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #173
178. Moderates think that civil unions are a moderate position,
many gay people think that support of anything short of full same-sex marriage rights is a socially conservative position.
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