I'm thrilled Obama was elected. But he doesn't get a mindless blank check..

[Armstead]

Short and sweet to those who reflexively defend Obama whenever anyone brings up any criticism, worries or misgivings about things he does.

As a moderate but diehard liberal/progressive (leftie), what concerns me most is that we steer the US to a better course that will benefit the majority. I'm willing to wait, compromise, keep an open mind etc. etc. etc.

But, like many others here, I believe it is also important to stick with my core beliefs, and to speak out for them, regardless of who is in charge.

I'm thrilled Obama was elected. I want him to do well, and I will be supportive of him in a broad sense, as long as he is at least moving in the same direction as liberal progressives (even if he is more moderate and incremental than I'd like.)

But we should not shut up and march in mindless lockstep.

[Clio the Leo]

1. And he wont be getting a mindless blank check. NT

[LaydeeBug]

27. oh, honey, he already is from some here.

It is incredible the mindless banter.

[Clio the Leo]

30. lol, but we do not make up the US Congress.. ;-) NT

[LaydeeBug]

31. >snort> That was a good one.

[HughMoran]

40. So "mindlessly" attack those who have a more optimistic view instead of simply ignoring???

What a crappy ass view of a "discussion" forum.

[ZeitGuy]

54. Well, there are some who simply point out...

...the mindless cannibalism of those who've just recently "joined the ranks."

One might read into that what one will, I suppose.

[atreides1]

2. Exactly

We shouldn't adopt the Republican mindset that was given to the Bush White House.

It seemed that no matter what was done or said, the Republicans bended their knee to their chosen leader and never questioned anything he did.

[FriendlyReminder]

46. According to a couple of my repuke co-workers, they were PISSED OFF at the Shrub

over amnesty and overspending. I don't think the conservatives are very happy with the Shrub at all.

[Control-Z]

68. It only took most of them

the better part of two terms.

[Captain Hilts]

77. I know two that not only didn't vote for McCain, but stood in line to vote for Obama they were so

pissed off.

[cali]

3. I don't think anyone's really demanding that we march in lockstep

though there are certainly some people who seem to support him uncritically.

[Armstead]

6. Not just the demands -- There's also the snarkiness

"Oh I'm sure the 'concern freaks' will be coming just bacause Obama appointed Dick Cheney as UN Ambadassor."

Yes I exagerate slightly, but a lot seem to be determined to force uncritical silence, and only want posts about how cute Sasha is.

[cali]

8. Of course that's there, but so are the sneering comments

about mindless Obama supporters and DLC loving drones. And really, who cares if people give you shit about criticizing Obama or supporting him? It's a discussion board on the internet so it's just part of the deal when you participate.

[Armstead]

10. I agree with you on that

It is a discussion board, and we all have a right to say whatever.

But that includes my right to bitch to those who bitch at those who bitch about Obama.

[cali]

12. LOL! Absolutely. Bitch away.

[Sebastian Doyle]

35. So if someone wants to bitch about your bitching about the bitching at those who bitch......

.... fuck it. I'm confused already :crazy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euOrnZZkzKg

[ZeitGuy]

56. I think Bernie might tell you to relax a little.

Just saying.

[undeterred]

4. He will be a better president if we hold him accountable.

You can bet the Right will be in his face every step of the way trying to pull him in their direction. Its our responsibility to make sure he sticks to his promises and works for the people of the United States, and not the Corporations.

[avaistheone1]

25. Yes, Let's remember the people are the sovereign power in this country.

We can only make Obama better by letting him know what it is we want and need it government. It is absolutely essential we do. We need to be the counterforce to the powerful pressures from special interests on K Street.

[L0oniX]

51. Too bad they don't accept that we are that sovereign power.

[glitch]

5. Thank you. We're Americans, dammit, not wussy dittoheads. nt

[donco6]

7. I AGREE!

I know, hard for some to believe.

[stray cat]

9. He gets plenty of mindless criticism and knee jerks as well as a few mindless blank checks

[rpannier]

72. Both sides run about 50-50

There are as many mindless blank checks as there are criticisms

[patrice]

11. We must become a real factor in our own right. Just like the churchy RW has - but BETTER. nt

[Thrill]

13. Obama has never asked for people to march in mindless lockstep

He's said just the opposite.

Doesn't mean Democrats need to be running to the nearest media outlet to bash his plans. Thats the problem I have.

[nevergiveup]

14. I agree with you totally

but think there needs to be a balance. I think we should be as generous with our support when we think he is right as we our with our criticism when we think he is wrong. Maybe I just open up all the wrong threads but it seems to me that the criticism recently here has become brutal and my tendency is to always defend him at this point even though there are some things that truly disturb me about the transition.

[Armstead]

19. I think that's one reason I said it -- So we don;t just get locked into "camps"

I think there is a natural tendency, once you are locked into a position, to hardenthat position and become almost afraid of flexibility.

On the otehr hand, if one is willing to acknowledge both the positive and negative sides from the outset, it is easier to be flexible over time.

In these terms, if people feel forced to either be in the "pro-Obama" or "anti-Obama" camp in the early days, DU could well harden into factions.

[Grinchie]

52. I am definately in the Anti Fascist camp

And when I see the same Corporate Fascists moving into the Obama administration, I tend to get nervous and put away my checkbook. I started guarding my checkbook when Obama voted on retroactive immunity. I absolutely Locked it down when I saw Clinton, Emmanuel, Vilsack enter into the equation.

If these are the gatekeepers for ideas reaching Obama's ears, then we are certainly in for a rough patch ahead when it comes to change.

[msfiddlestix]

62. me 2

i'm in the "abolish corporate-person-hood camp" but I was never invested in the notion that Obama was ever of the same mind. Such things will take many years of hard work and grassroots activism to accomplish, unfortunately.

[PVnRT]

15. +1

[elocs]

16. The truth is that Obama cannot please everyone. Someone will always be unhappy with his choices

and decisions. I don't think that any of us are going to give him a blank check, but by the same token we should not be eagerly looking for the opportunity to jump on him because we do not agree with a choice or decision he has made. He has not even taken office yet or made any official decisions so I think I will give him the benefit of the doubt, and that is not a blank check.

[Avalux]

17. No mindless blank check. But at least let him take the oath and give him a chance.

Many, it seems, are entirely too quick to rush to judgement.

The of the changes we seek will require time and great effort; there will be mistakes along the way. We worked hard to get Obama elected and I will continue to support him unless it becomes apparent his decisions are not in the best interest of the people.

[Armstead]

20. Yes, but he became defacto president in November

I disagree that what Obama does in the period between his election and the Inaguration is not important.

He is now building the blocks of the foundation for his administration. As such, he is already acting, and deserves to be evaluated on that. He is already setting the tone for what he will be doing.

[ellisonz]

49. "Yes, but he became defacto president in November"

Really? I think you need to re-read the Constitution.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. The legitimate criticism that has been leveled at him thus far ......

.... has been directly about actions ha has taken in his role as President (elect). His cabinet and cabinet-related nominations.

The core criticisms I have seen thus far have been legitimate.

Every discussion thread devolves into snarkiness. That doesn't change the essential facts or essential concerns. The two are often conflated and cause positions to harden. And generalized perceptions to be turned into focused - and often wildly off target - attacks.

[defendandprotect]

24. Exactly ---

[Captain Hilts]

78. Yes, Reid needs to shut the fuck up. It's like Clinton in spring '93 all over again. Dems -

going after a Democratic president.

Reid's comment combined with the public statements about the stimulus package are ugly repeats of Clinton trying to permit gays in the military and his first budget passing by only ONE vote - Gore's.

[bigwillq]

18. Agree, totally.

:thumbsup:

[pleah]

21. Absolutely!

[defendandprotect]

23. And let's make clear ...a RETURN to liberal values of past ....

Democratic Party while defending ALL human rights for EVERYONE --

[Uncle Joe]

26. Kicked and recommended.

I believe mindless blank checks are for the Republican Party.

Thanks for the thread, Armstead.

[Uzybone]

28. Thanks for stating the obvious.

yet again

[Occam Bandage]

29. Nor should we mindlessly complain regardless of what he does. nt

[Armstead]

33. I'll go with that too

[ZeitGuy]

55. SNAP. (n/t)

[chascarrillo]

67. And who the fuck is doing that?

Fucking sheep.

[Rwalsh]

32. Agreed.

Years and years of damage by the Bushes and Reagan CANNOT be fixed in 1 day or 1 week or 1 month.

Contrary to what many here seem to think, PE Obama is not a superman. He cannot solve all our problems at once.

But we need to make sure he is moving to solve our problems at a reasonable speed.

[Cha]

34. Right, like anyone is giving him a mindless

blank check. Get Real.

[HughMoran]

39. The O/P is being "reflexive" and "mindless" by assuming something so moronic

I'm really getting tired of those accusing supporters of being zombies or otherwise crapping on their faces, aren't you?

[Cha]

42. Just a

LITTLE:bounce:

[Armstead]

45. Then don;t return the favor and crap on their faces

BTW I supported Obama in the primaries (and general) realizing he is a moderate.

But I was not expecting Clinton/DLC 2, and if that's what is happening I'm going to "reflexively" complain about it.

[Armstead]

44. "I think Obama should let his hair grow out a little" .... "Why do you hate Obama so much?

That seems to be a common pattern around here

[Life Long Dem]

36. I questioned Obama's judgment during the campaign...

I think a lot of people saw Obama's judgment during the campaign and found out that Obama's judgment is better than their own.

Obama has to keep reminding the press about who is in charge. He explained they can suggest any proposal to him they want, but it will be up to himself in determining whether or not he would choose the proposal or not.

[WI_DEM]

37. He never has around here.

[HughMoran]

38. Here we go again

:eyes:

"reflexively" is right

:eyes:

[jenmito]

41. I don't know anyone who said we should shut up and march in mindless lockstep.

I DO know people here who are getting mad at him when he reiterates what he'd been saying throughout his campaign or stays true to his stated desire to be "post-partisan," though.

[Window]

43. Sensible post.

"..whenever anyone brings up any criticism, worries or misgivings about things he does."

My only problem is with those that have criticism, worries or misgivings about everything he says or does.


Peace:thumbsup:

[Daphne08]

47. I agree. n/t

[Hutzpa]

48. Why do you hate America so much?

:evilgrin:

[Armstead]

50. Because I am Mikey

"Here, give it to Mikey. He hates everything."

[mntleo2]

53. Amen to this!

...I REFUSE to be a robot. qwhen I see things I do not agree with I WILL speak out and I don't CARE what party or who it is.

I know that solidarity is important and that we should find some core things that we can all rally together around. But the truth is that, when you allow the differences to BE different, you can still be in solidarity. Organizations that explore and tolerate disagreements become stronger because they learn from one another and become confident enough to not be threatened by differences.

It is OK to disagree on things, just find some things you agree with is all and then STAND THERE and don't budge.

Love
Cat In Seattle

[lostnotforgotten]

57. K&R

eom

[treestar]

58. It's such a great idea to have obstructionists in his own party?

Let's undermine the most progressive president elected in decades, just because we are so used to disagreeing with the government, we don't know how to win.

[Armstead]

59. Um, if he were behaving in any way like a progressive, I wouldn't be worrying

I don't want to win only to lose because we elect to the same old crowd, and make the same mistakes that screwed the pooch before

[Radical Activist]

64. Yep. There it is.

It's not criticism that I have a problem with. Its the unrealistic, exaggerated attacks that myself and most others dislike. You're talking about a President-elect who's preparing to seriously tackle climate change, proposed a New Deal style jobs and public works program, ran on a liberal platform, appointed some very good liberal cabinet officers to key positions and here you are claiming Obama isn't acting in any way like a progressive. You also claimed you thought Obama was a moderate in the primary.

You have a skewed view of Obama. If you're going to make claims like this then expect people to call bullshit. It seems that some people's personality or ideology make them incapable of believing a liberal can be President and they seek out any evidence to prove that thesis.

[liberation]

70. After reading a few of your posts, I begin to see what the problem is...

Given that you feel the need to excuse Obama through many of your posts when someone is expressing criticism, it is clear that you do have a problem with that. It may be due to the fact that I don't think the term "liberal" means what you think it means. If you are claiming that Obama is a liberal politician, then you are being intellectually disingenuous IMHO. There is nothing liberal about the renewal of the Patriot act, FISA, etc, etc...


Some of us leftie liberals were aware that Obama was a moderate at best. So come this election cycle, us pinko commie bastards did what we do best: we compromised. We understood the reality of the situation, that even though both Hillary and Obama were far from ideal candidates, they were our only real choice. So it really did made little difference, at least to me, as many people in reality were voting against McCain more than they were voting for Obama.

I don't personally have a problem in accepting the fact that Obama is a moderate, and in some cases slightly conservative, that is fine with me as I think even an inanimate object like an artichoke would make a better president than Bush. So my expectations were low to begin with.

But some of us are damn tired of having to compromise and then being blamed because we dare point out the obvious in our dissidence. We have seen this country go down the tubes for the past 3 decades, and it is not because some liberals were being "too stubborn" in their ideological purity... not even close. It is because a set of disastrous policies have been force fed on us as the established American MO. And I am damn tired of people insinuating that just because some of us dare in believing in silly ideals like peace, a fairer society, a sustainable economy, a future for our children, etc... that somehow it is our fault for failing to once again yield no matter what.

Obama can make the decisions he thinks make sense for his presidency, that is his prerogative. But I will be damned if I have to shut up when I disagree with some of the crap that he ha been pulling in putting together his cabinet.

[Radical Activist]

79. weak

You're only evidence besides "etc" that Obama isn't a liberal is FISA and the Patriot Act. It's perfectly understandable that you don't like the votes he took in compromise bills. I realize some people put large importance on symbolic protest votes that accomplish nothing other than allowing the politician to grandstand and brag about how they're the only true liberal candidate.

But if you look at Obama's reasoning and stated position on the patriot act it's a liberal one. If you look at Obama's opposition to wiretapping and what he'd prefer to do with FISA as President it's a liberal position. But some people are quick and eager to believe any attack that paints Obama as more moderate to conservative.

You obviously have a cynical green/marxist/nihilist ideological viewpoint that makes you believe a liberal can't be the Democratic nominee or become President and you'll accept any claim that supports that view. It sounds like you have a bunker mentality from the last three decades and you don't yet know how to build a new approach tailored for activism under a liberal President.

I don't know who you imagine is telling you to shut up. I'm certainly not. I've criticized Obama on this board several times in the last month. I'm just telling people to stop exaggerating and stop making shit up. You can be reasonable, accurate and still be a dissident.

[Dawgs]

71. You're an idiot. That is all.

:crazy:

[OneBlueSky]

60. well said . . . I too support Obama, and am thrilled he was elected . . .

but we have to remember that he'll be getting pressure from all sides . . . if we just shut up and allow the other side to win the battle of influence, we will lose the war . . .

let me repeat that . . . if we just shut up and allow the other side to win the battle of influence, we will lose the war . . .

for every oil company and pharmaceutical manufacturer and agribusiness conglomerate and "defense" contractor and bank that has Obama's ear, he needs to hear equally powerful voices from people like us who don't have the corporate media as our house organ . . . that means we have to make noise, and lots of it, if we expect him to hear us above the corporate din, which is exceptionally loud and plugged directly into his head . . . if that means saying "wait a minute, Barack . . . take a step back and look at that decision" -- or even "hey, that was really stupid, Barack!" -- then so be it . . .

if we don't speak up, and speak up loudly, the other side wins . . . the other side being the ultra-right corporate/government oligarchy that has been running this country since God knows when and is looking to make it into a full-blown police state . . . we simply can not afford to let that happen . . .

real change will only happen if we, the people, demand it -- in voices loud enough and numerous enough and passionate enough to compete with and ultimately drown out the voices on K Street and at FauxNews and in the corporate boardrooms and at the right wing think tanks . . .

in voices powerful enough to get his attention and hold it . . .

in voices of the people, by the people, and for the people . . .

[msfiddlestix]

61. Hear, Hear...

Well put. We've had enough of mindless lockstep these past several decades. That's one thing I hope changes for the better, asap.

[anonymous171]

63. I'm not really worried about him. I'm worried about congress.

[rpannier]

73. I worry about both

When he lives up to the things he said he was going to do then I'll worry less

But his repositioning on FISA was the first thing that made me wonder and there have been other incidents along the way

[jgraz]

65. Whaddya mean "mindless"? I plan on marching in thoughtful and intelligent lockstep

:P

[poverlay]

66. Yes he does. Bush certainly did. Why shouldn't our candidate get the same opportunity? I speak

tongue in cheek of course, yet I'm willing to be quite trusting of Barack and yes, with my money tool. He's already done more to prove himself worthy than Bush ever did. After the vetting process we put him through and the problems we're asking him to fix, he deserves the tools (Be it money, trust, patience, hard-work or othewise.) to do the job.

We don't have to march in lockstep to keep quiet, look over his shoulder, and competently hand him the tools he needs to do the job. It's simply the right thing to do when you've asked the person to do a job of such epic proportions.

[rpannier]

74. You trust him with your money TOOL?

Boy, you must really believe in the man

[poverlay]

82. Pardon my spelling mishap there. I was falling asleep over my keyboard. I very much

want to trust him and, like I said, I feel it is very important that he have the power, and yes: the resources, to clean up the Republican's mess. That's going to take a bit more than the hobbled luck everyone seems to expect him to do it with.

[man4allcats]

69. Couldn't agree more!

Lockstep is entirely in character for RepubliNazis, but we are not those. The danger that we face for having failed to impeach Bush and Cheney is that we have left the door open for some future tyrant made worse by Bushco's having escaped punishment for its many crimes. Democracies don't run themselves. Without oversight, freedom will surely be taken from us.

[quickesst]

75. The proverbial "cart before the horse"

"I'm willing to wait, compromise, keep an open mind etc. etc. etc."

I believe that's all the majority here has asked.

"But, like many others here, I believe it is also important to stick with my core beliefs, and to speak out for them, regardless of who is in charge."

Good advice, but again, that's all the majority here has asked. Obama's not "in charge" yet, but many here seem to be under the impression that he can issue executive orders while still the president-elect. I understand that it has been established by many that there is no "common ground" with the right-wingers, but it would seem, given that democrats are supposed to be smarter, that they could find some common ground between the fantasy president they created during the primaries and ge, and the reality the majority of democrats recognized all along. A re-examination by many of their motives and reasoning for their "zeal" in getting Obama elected, if recognized, would be very revealing. He wasn't, isn't, and won't be the fantasy president created during the primaries and ge, and thankfully, most here, and across the country have known that all along. Thanks.
quickesst

[Captain Hilts]

76. I've said from the get-go he's not the progressive he's being marketed as and we're going to have to

lean on him, as Russell and Chamberlain did each other.

That said, comments like Reid's "I don't work for Mr. Obama" are NOT helpful.

[Radical Activist]

80. He wasn't marketed as a progressive. Some of us read his platform

which was progressive.

[PurityOfEssence]

81. Thinking is such a horrible, dreadful chore

that far too many people can only bear it long enough for a cursory binary judgment, after which they have to hold fast to their position and brook no dissent.

Qualified support is a fiendish attempt to force them into some sort of living hell of continual thinking, and they'll hurt you for that.

The bottom line is this: we have a bit of a mandate and a very disorganized opposition. This is the time to go for the gusto. I'd still stay away from things that will only cause problems, like gun control, but there's a real chance here to correct our course on very important things like health care, Afghanistan and our general warlike foreign policy, corporatism and others. Speaking out can nudge the administration in the right direction, and it's not going to hurt the party if it's done in a sincere and constructive way.

To your tormentors, though, that last paragraph was a cross between white noise and a car alarm.

[LaydeeBug]

83. some of this worship is getting out of control.

it;s un.freaking.believable.

[Critters2]

84. Exactly. I've already got a religion. And even that doesn't get a mindless blank check. nt