There is a message to the world if we don't have an investigation

[Road Scholar]

and indictments for war crimes and it will be how we will be perceived in world affairs from now on.

It will be:

Whatever Obama does is only temporary and that we are subject to return to the ways of Bushco in 4 years.

There is also a message if we DO have an investigation and prosecute the guilty.

It will be:

The United States of America does not invade other countries without just cause, tolerate torture or hold prisoners indefinitely without charges, or this will be the consequences.

I DO hope Obama and the new congress realize this.
I can't believe procedures haven't already started. It is a disappointment to me, and a little scary too.

Please share your thoughts on this.

edited for clarity

[RandomThoughts]

1. Well there are lots of considerations

Assuming what we believe to have happened happened. (to maintain innocent till proven guilty in court of law.)

For me its about what is both fair, and what is actually in the best interest of the people of the United States, and the world for that matter.

However there are some people in power that might not fair well in such an investigation.

So there are a few possibilities.

1. no investigation
2. white wash, fake investigation.
3. mostly good investigation, with cover for selected people.
or
4. Lance the boil, let the puss drain, and get the rope.(metaphor)

The first three would be seen for what they are. It is almost same as economy, if it is just some middle ground effort. It will not set the right precedent, will not help reputation, and might actually make things worse, since both the right and the left would be screaming.

But if you walk the 'right' in front of the things that were done, and they have to see for themselves what was done in the name of America, then they have to face their own conscious and will agree that punishment is due. (again if found guilty in court of law)

There are some that say, let the commoners scream all they want, they wont do anything. This is why citizenship is a duty, its up to the American people to make a difference.

[Road Scholar]

3. Thank you, I agree. I say lance it and get the rope. We are of

course talking about feeding (or not feeding) the propaganda of terrorists as much as anything in the short term as well as how we are respected in world affairs for a very long time.

[bullimiami]

2. its more fundamental than that. either we are a country that respects the laws or we are not.

[Road Scholar]

4. And how we respond to it will define us for a long time.

[RandomThoughts]

5. And that decision will the choice of food we serve the rest of the world

Both Terrorist and the respected people that want to find a better way then extremism. And the Bush meals we been serving have hurt us badly.

But we don't do it for image, but doing right does create a better image.

Doing right, and good image go together.

Doing wrong, and bad image go together. Sure you can fake this one for awhile, but every attempt is a downward spiral, use fear, you can hide it, but you must ratchet up the fear over and over. Use lies, it works, but you have to pile on more and more lies. Use mental manipulation, it works for a while, just like dumbing people down, works for awhile. But you have to keep people even more manipulated to keep the manipulation hidden.

All of these ways creates a big balloon, that always eventually burst.

Gandhi said it, tyrannies fail. Its all through history, how tough is this, for heaven sakes, spock said it in Mirror Mirror episode of Star Trek, G'kar said it on B5. It is story after story, because it happens time and time again. It is said over and over, Dark side is short term and ends in a terrible mess.

[Gin]

7. Heard on NPR that if we don't investigate...other countries can, and will

and that would be a major embarrassment for Obama and the US. The other countries have attorneys lined up and ready to go if we don't.

[alsame]

15. Last night, John Dean on Countdown and Jonathan Turley on

Rachel both expressed this point of view - that other countries would begin investigations for war crimes against this administration. Turley went so far as to say that many top level people may not even be able to visit other countries without fear of arrest.

I think something needs to be done by the DOJ - if Bushco gets away with the things they've done, we will eventually have another administration that goes even further. We should have learned that lesson after the Nixon pardon.

[WinkyDink]

8. And who will support Obama on this quest? Reid? Daschle? Pelosi?

[WinkyDink]

6. Forget it. There is absolutely no way an Obama Administration will "look backwards" to further

justice. "Let's move forward".
NO WAY will it use the resources (one of the excuses I expect).

[lonestarnot]

10. No but the DOJ will.

[WinkyDink]

19. I hope I am as wrong as wrong can be, and you are right.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Agreed

we have to have an investigation. If we don't, this disease will indeed be back to haunt us in four years. And I wouldn't put it past the GOP and its corporate masters to figure out how to steal elections without getting caught by that time.

[Mike Nelson]

11. I ...

...would add that if we don't look at BOTH the future ("Hope") and deal with this criminal administration, Obama could become a failed President. AND, he must NOT fail.

[RandomThoughts]

12. I think investigations of wrong doing is looking to the future

The rope part is a bit much, I believe in forgiveness, it is a metaphor for justice, but wrong metaphor.

but there has to be accountability. That has to make sense.

edit:
Ok now all the other symbols of rope popped in my mind, definitely wrong metaphor.

So some metaphor for justice for the sake of precedence and accountability would be better.

[Road Scholar]

13. It really is looking into the future.

[tomreedtoon]

14. Remember "Judgment at Nuremberg"?

That movie showed how the Nazi war crimes trials were SUPPOSED to have purged the world of the horrors the Nazis inflicted upon the world. Remember how it ended?

The prosecuting nations - The US, Britain, Russia and the rest - rushed to judgment and didn't do a complete job. The trials were mostly show and were wrapped up prematurely Mostly the conquering nations wanted to take those Nazis, especially those with military strategy and missile/jet technology, and employ them in THEIR governments for the upcoming wars.

If the Bush Administration WAS brought to trial, I believe the same thing would happen. The Bushies made enormous profits for megacorporations and the religious right. Both would bring their powers to bear to rescue Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and all the other traitors to humanity so they could be used to rebuild their empires.

So...in other words...the war crimes trials you guys are drooling over will provide no satisfaction in the end, and will set up a future of even worse abominations for our future.

There is no happy ending, just an ending. Accept it and move on.

[RandomThoughts]

16. Your premise has two things I disagree with

First, you claim that multi national corporations, or sudo religous organizations (moon or engineered religous organizations for politics) could win or even hope to survive an attempt to fight that which is true. They would be totally crushed if they sided with wrong for profit. Which sometimes is the reason to pursue that which is right.

Second, and this is even more important. You do not do what is right, just because you believe the outcome will be more favorable. What I mean, is when you compute results versus conscious, most of the time, fear and doubt is injected into the equasion with to much representation.

Simply put, sometimes, to do right, you have to do it, because it is the right thing to do.

[RandomThoughts]

17. In a more specific response to German reconstruction

After the civil war in the USA the south had certain restrictions, no officer in the southern army could serve in political office, and some other limitations that made it so no leader in the south could play a part in any needed civil service.

This was reviewed in 1945, and the decision was made that Nazi's that did not have direct blood on their hands, were not severely punished. So there was actual Nazis still in government after the war.

Your point on the harvesting of scientist is sad. We also got some bio weapon scientist from Japan. There is a certain point where you do have to move forward, and sometimes people that realize they were wrongly led, can actually find some integrity latter. Sometimes they try and repeat the same fascism a few decades later. Its almost a case by case basis.

Yes you have to move forward, and the individuals are not as important as recreating the rule of law, and that was done in Germany. And in our case recreating rule of law requires acknowledging it was broken, which is the investigations.

[tomreedtoon]

39. Yes to rule of law, but don't expect punishments.

Thanks for the intelligent commentary on the issue. My point is that there is no way the Bushies will ever be punished by law or judgment of the government. But they CAN be punished in the court of public opinion, made pariahs, made mock of continually, painted as the bastards they were. That's the only punishment they will ever receive, and hoping for more is sadly impossible.

[Road Scholar]

21. I completely disagree. Bush and Company are just a guilty of murder

as was Saddam Hussein. Iraq has been destroyed. Hundred of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens killed. Nearly five thousand of our own young men and women dead for no good reason. Iraq has become a shining light for the terrorists.
Busaco should receive the same punishment as Saddam Hussein.

[tomreedtoon]

38. When you wield the power Bush had, go for it, dude.

Until then you will have to cope with the people who have the REAL power, who don't want Bush and Company accused of anything and are quite willing to let them drink and drug themselves to death instead. You won't get your vengeance unless you want to turn into a Bush-like being yourself.

[RandomThoughts]

18. One more thing

Any investigation needs to be led by the facts that the investigation brings out. This takes more time, but it also creates an environment where justice can inform the people and they can see that it is justice and not politics. If it was politics, it would be wrong to do, because that is not the right reason.

[OneGrassRoot]

20. Accountability and transparency. This needs to happen....

if we, as a country and citizenry, are indeed to move forward. And, as you say, it will send a positive message to the world as well.

To me, it's all about accountability and transparency. It's the only thing that can truly ATTEMPT to shift the destructive course this nation has been on for a long time; a course which, I believe, has been an intentional one set by the "powers that be," to methodically devalue and strip the average citizen of power.

I hope someone within the Obama Administration sees it this way rather than the meme put out by Congress of "don't look back, move forward."

Accountability and justice enable us to move forward.

My two cents.

[Uzybone]

22. If Congress doesn't do it it will not happen

Make sure you petition Congress.

[Road Scholar]

25. If congress doesn't do it, the world court will,just like Nuremburg. The

US doesn't control everything anymore.

[AtomicKitten]

23. Jonathan Turley agrees.

On Rachel Maddow re: war crimes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkNoVjrOJmM

[CTyankee]

27. Wow, the Turley interview is dynamite!

I can see these former Bushies off in Paris on vacay and having the gendarmes come and get them in their swank hotel rooms!

Obama does have to do something and he better have this thing figured out sooner rather than later. This could get ugly.

[AtomicKitten]

28. I love me some Jonathan Turley

(and Matt Taibbi)

:loveya:

[polichick]

30. I think Turley is awesome too!

[CTyankee]

33. Better yet, Bushies could get "detained" at the airport!

I saw a "takedown" at JFK on my flight from Madrid, but as it turned out it was probably just for an outstanding police warrant or bench warrant (according to my son, a prosecutor in Brooklyn). It was kind of exciting...

[AtomicKitten]

35. visions of orange jump suits & handcuffs dance in my head!!! n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

24. This is way too hot to handle

The Democratic Party isn't going to expose itself to future indictments and destruction. The issues at hand are war crimes and lying to Congress about justifications for war. These are MAJOR crimes, and any resolution of them would bring serious consequences upon the perpetrators.

Even if Obama was truly outraged by the waging of war for political and economic gain, he wouldn't allow a real prosecution of this. If it was something like Iran-Contra, which is considerably less serious (although deeply ugly, illegal and murderous) he still probably wouldn't pursue it.

This is a careful centrist; if it isn't clear already, it will be soon.

[Road Scholar]

26. Talk about about a 600 lb. gorrila in the room. And he ain't

goin' away anytime soon.

[polichick]

29. It is unthinkable that we would let this go...

You're right, whatever we do sends a powerful message ~ to the rest of the world, to would-be criminals hoping to get to the WH, and to Americans, who are hoping that our Constitution still has meaning.

It would be horrifying if our Constitutional professor president let this go.

[Road Scholar]

31. I am becoming more and more disillusioned with our democratic

controlled congress.:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[polichick]

32. Me too. Someone posted a piece on DU recently about the enormous....

...contract Feinstein's husband received for some defense-related business. I'm not sure there are many good guys left ~ those looking out for regular Americans.

[Road Scholar]

34. I'm beginning to wonder if GWB's telephone spying isn't paying off.

I promise, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some blackmail and extortion going on here. Of course, Rove wouldn't be in on anything like that. It's not like we're dealing with angels here.
Just sayin'

[polichick]

36. Well, I figure Rove is roaming free for a reason.

[SidneyCarton]

37. Knowing how complicit the Democratic Leadership in Congress was in these crimes...

We can expect that they will stall, stonewall and whitewash any attempts at prosecution. If they didn't, It would be necessary to rid ourselves of Reid, Pelosi, Hoyer, Rockefeller, and probably Durbin just to get started.

We probably need to do this anyway. But needing to do a thing and actually doing it are two separate things, forgive me if I don't hold my breath or place large sums of money on the odds of it happening anytime soon.