The TRUTH about the imaginary feud between Obama and Dean

[NJmaverick]

As expected that was pure fantasy from the Anti-Obama "Dems".

"As far as I know, it's not true. I have not clashed with Obama's advisors."

According the the report, Dean noted that he did clash with one of Obama's advisors but it occurred before the person became an advisor to Obama. He also said it would be very hard to change a trip to American Samoa for a press conference.

"You know, people like to say those kinds of things just to stir things up," Dean said. "I'm not interested in stirring things up. We have a lot of important problems in front of us and we need to deal with that...not gossip and the internet."

Gov. Dean also said that he didn't know if he was invited to the news conference because he was on his way to American Samoa when it happened.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/1/12/23455/5870/63/683379

[phleshdef]

1. The anti-Obama talking points around here are being destroyed faster than I expected.

Though I'm sure someone will come into this thread and say that Dean is just being gracious again and try to pretend there is still something to the whole myth of their being some dissing of Dean by the Obama camp.

[DevonRex]

5. I loved what he said about Kaine, too. He was one of DEAN"S choices

for the position. I clicked on the link to the Samoa website, and found that out. I quoted it below.

[Window]

24. Thank goodness we have our own Truth Squad. LOL!

Peace:thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

147. I posted about this last night here.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3410

[Window]

235. Thanks madfloridian for the link to your journal. Dean looked great...

relaxed and happy.

Edited because I thought you liked Dean.

Peace:thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

242. I still think he is a good man.

But I think he is wrong on this one. I think he is trying to keep peace in the party, and is willing to put down the bloggers who stood up for him to keep that peace.

I am rather sad to see it.

[John Q. Citizen]

283. Dean played it straight. He has no regrets, I think the bloggers have regrets in that

they know and love Dean and wish he would get some props.

But i don't think Dean cares particularly.

But i do think he wants to see the 50 state plan continued because he's pragmatic.

[phleshdef]

2. Okay so when are the ones that were pushing the Dean Got Dissed story gonna apologize?

I'm waiting.

[DevonRex]

4. Let me know if they do, as I can't see most of them. nt

[Cha]

77. I hear ya... I had to

put the downers on Ignore 'cause they were overkill a week ago. They can just yak into oblivion.

[DevonRex]

152. Hoo boy. Change to printer format. The bizarre stuff below is NOT to be missed.

Series.

[Cha]

165. I know..I could

look but it just makes me furious..so unproductive.

[madfloridian]

226. zidzi your contempt for me is now very clear.

It's not like you to rub it in.

[wndycty]

289. You bring that on yourself

:kick:

[NJmaverick]

6. Here want some of this? I think it's going to be a loooonnnnggg wait

:popcorn:

[Fridays Child]

8. Exactly.

I'll have some, thanks.

[DevonRex]

9. I wish we had a smiley for zero-calorie pancakes. Since we don't

can I have some popcorn? Pretty please? It will be a long wait for sure.

[NJmaverick]

11. It's low fat popcorn so help yourself

:hi:

[ellacott]

35. I'll make some buffalo wings

Be right back. :)

[ecstatic]

55. man...those crickets are LOUD...anyone have ear plugs?

[DevonRex]

3. And he commented on Kaine when asked:

Asked to comment on Kaine, he said the Virginia governor is “wonderful”, as Kaine was one of his choices for the job and was very pleased he was appointed.

“He very much understands the 50-state strategy that is the idea that you want to be everywhere because he comes from one of those states that Democrats were afraid to participate in before,” Dean explained.

Edited to add the link provided by Kos who says it will only work for a few more hours.

http://www.samoanewsonline.com/viewstory.php?storyid=3233&edition=1231754400


One more anti-Obama talking point shot down.

[wyldwolf]

14. wait... Kaine was one of Dean's choices? uh oh...

[wndycty]

15. THAT IS NOT TRUE!!!! How do I know?

Because that is what I want and need to believe to hate Obama!

[wyldwolf]

19. Dean's a sellout, because DU told me Kaine is a Republican-lite or something...

[wndycty]

21. Well you know Dean is not allowed to speak for himself. . .FOLKS THINK THEY KNOW. . .

. . .what is going through his head and that is what we are supposed to believe he thinks.

[NJmaverick]

28. The AODs will use anything, including Howard Dean and his good reputation

to try and smear PE Obama

[DevonRex]

44. And to try to get everybody ELSE

to hate Obama, too!11

[wndycty]

47. ;)

:kick:

[DevonRex]

29. Yep. The man said it himself. Now, I've never thought Dean was a liar

but I bet people here won't believe what he said. Which means THEY think he's a liar. Some support for Dean, huh? I was a proud Deaniac and I'm STILL a proud Deaniac. He says what he thinks and he means what he says. He is a polite man but that doesn't extend to lying.

And way below, we have the first person to say he wasn't telling the truth. :eyes:

[firedupdem]

46. No way! Kaine is going to take away a womans right to choose!

Dean would never have said this! He's just saying this because it's the right thing to do. :eyes:

[DevonRex]

53. And he's gonna do a bunch of other stuff too!!!!!1111!

I don't know what, but it'll be just AWFUL!111one1

[firedupdem]

68. yep, I think a ban on contraception is the latest. Shameful. n/t

[wndycty]

7. The folks on DU pushing this meme have been looking for a reason to stage a POUTRAGE

Now they are beginning to look like fools. I especially loved the thread that complained about McAuliffe's going away party. LOL

[NJmaverick]

10. Is that like the pity party/parades I see many DUers holding?

[wndycty]

12. Yes

:kick:

[wyldwolf]

13. this isn't true! It was Rahm Emanuel disguising his voice as Dean's!

Don't be fooled!!!

[NJmaverick]

16. This was posted in the Lounge yesterday, it's probably the AOD's favorite picture

[wyldwolf]

17. that's hysterical

[DevonRex]

23. LOL! Carefully orchestrated "trees"!!!1111!!!!

[Window]

27. That is too funny.

:rofl:

[Uzybone]

211. LMAO!!!!

suspiciously empty space LOL.

[sniffa]

271. The least you could do is not poach another DUer's photobucket

multiple times.

- The guy he can't see and no doubt he'll point that out but at least others will know how bad mannered he is. I wished for a Lemon Party swap with the host photo but it didn't happen.

[HelenWheels]

18. Sorry I am not appeased

Until Dean gets a prestigious appointment I will be angry. How about head of CDC? I don't care what you say he was one of the main reasons we won big in the election. Without the 50 state strategy we not have done nearly as well. And I believe Jim Dean when he said Howard was not invited to the news conference. He wouldn't have gone to Samoa if he had been invited.

[wndycty]

20. Ahhh the first POUTRAGE in this thread. . .

. . .I see a bunch of folks getting ready to fold their arms and pout in the corner until they get their way. LOL

[NJmaverick]

22. Here is a picture for you

[DevonRex]

25. You think Dean is a liar, then. ROFLMAO!!!! Unless that was sarcasm

which I doubt.

[babylonsister]

26. Bunk. Now you don't believe Howard Dean? Some support there. nt

[Window]

30. You don't know what appointment/s Dean turned down. From his own lips,

he is happy to be able to relax and do his own thing on the speaking circuit, etc.

So, if Dean likes it, you should love it.

Barring that, be angry.

[Teaser]

36. You're top on my list of people we need to appease

I promise you, we'll get right on it.

[countingbluecars]

31. I'll believe it only when

they throw him a big party like they did McAuliffe!

:rofl:

[Life Long Dem]

32. MSM is still MSM and they didn't stop their spinning.

Especially when Obama was elected. They also are trying to stir up a Hillary Vs. Carolyn war. As if the two are competing for the same position.

[azmouse]

33. Facts are such pesky things.

Thanks for posting this to counter the misinformation and poutrage some like to post on DU.

[NJmaverick]

34. No problem, it seems the AODs (anti-Obama "Dems") are losing more and more

credibility, as time goes by.

[DevonRex]

41. I like that term, AOD. I don't have much time for folks who move from one rumor

to the next and spout them as if they were fact. Or who spout speculation by some internet guru as if it were fact.

[scheming daemons]

37. Hmmm... and the ones poutraging over the "Dean snub" last week are all absent now...

...

[NJmaverick]

38. Yes not a single one of the many dozens that attacked Obama

and whined about how unfair Howard Dean was treated, have done the right thing and acknowledged their mistake.

[wndycty]

40. You know Dean didn't get a party. . .

. . .yet. LOL

[DevonRex]

42. Yep. I don't see any "ignoreds" in this thread. so you're right. nt

[tishaLA]

39. This is an interesting development

[AtomicKitten]

43. Told ya so.

:P

[DevonRex]

45. Heh. :)

[Cha]

86. Yeah.

:P

[DevonRex]

48. I love his utter disdain for internet rumor-mongers and gossipers.

Howard tells it like it is. Always has. And this time he's basically telling the people spreading rumors to STFU and get a life. Haha.

[NJmaverick]

49. It was that attitude that made him such a successful leader for the Dems

:applause:

[DevonRex]

51. You're right. That's why I have always been a Deaniac.

Thankfully I was given enough common sense not to believe rumors until I had checked the facts. And thankfully Dean is doing his best to shoot down the rumors that are being spread by the AODs.

:hi: Great thread, by the way. Thank you for it. :)

[Cha]

92. Once again my

Dean comes through:bounce:

[Cha]

88. Dean musta gotten

a load of some that "stirring" going around.

[mdmc]

50. The corporate wing will not be undermined

I still remember NYS AG Eliot Spitzer telling me that Howard Dean was "unelectable" because he didn't support the invasion of Iraq. "Maybe." I replied, "But the war is a tactical blunder."
He disagreed.
$100k for sex is also a tactical blunder.

[wyldwolf]

52. could this be the second poutrage of the thread?

[DevonRex]

54. I honestly can't tell.

:shrug:

[mdmc]

61. I don't think there is a big beef between the Good Doctor

and Obama.

I think Dean built the modern machine, Obama tuned it and raced it to the white house.
Neither are peacenics.
Both get tons of corporate cash..

I think Obama knows that there is no benefit from propping up Dean. The GOP hates him and the centrist fear the GOP. Why make everyone mad?:shrug:

[Cha]

99. I don't think you have clue

what's going on but that doesn't stop you from stating it like it was a fact.

[mdmc]

205. What is goin on?

:shrug:

1-Dean built the dem netroots
2-Obama took it to the white house
3-There is no beef between Dean and Obama

That is what is goin on, imho...

Folks think Obama (and Dean for that matter) are some sort of radical leftist...Nader-like.
They ain't.
They are mainstream, down the middle...

so clue me in... what are the facts?

peace

[NJmaverick]

56. 14 replies and 26 recs and 0 Mea culpas

Pretty much what many of us expected:eyes:

[madfloridian]

57. He didn't KNOW if he was invited? Baloney.

Then he wasn't invited.

Hey, it's a good thing, though. After 5 years hubby and I realize we was played for chumps.

They took our money, took our efforts....and then turned to pacify the right wing.

Kind of feels liberating now.

[wndycty]

59. So you are calling Dean a liar...?

LOL

[madfloridian]

62. Does it matter at all what anyone says?

[firedupdem]

63. oh boy, here we go. n/t

[NJmaverick]

66. We have another confirmed case of poutrage!

[John Q. Citizen]

282. We have a confirmed assaholeic. What have you been drinking?

[John Q. Citizen]

281. The Obama Taliban aren't as tough as they talk. Dean's a good man and he did a great

job, and I don't think he has any regrets.

He will be remembered as heads and shoulders above every other contemporary Chairman the Democrats had. In fact he's so good, it makes sense that obama has to put in someone who is a lot lower key. Obama needs people to focus on him and Dean would diminish that just by his stature and his credibility.

For my part, I'm demanding the new DNC chair continue to use, promote, implement and follow the 50 state strategy because it's so pragmatic.

Giving local Democrats access to the voter file and putting resources in the hands of local offices has been a brilliant plan that won big.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. I wonder what you-know-who thinks about this "bullying" thread.

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. Oh, nevermind.

She already responded.

With more poutrage and deliciously hypocritical slurs against Howard Dean.

[madfloridian]

60. Howard insulted his own brother...oh my goodness.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3381

But see, he had to do it or look bad in the eyes of the Samoan people.

It's all good.

[NJmaverick]

64. You insulted Howard Dean, by calling him a liar

which I think is worse

[madfloridian]

67. That is just silly. Of course he knew he was not invited. This is just silly.

It is silly for him to say it.

[wndycty]

82. So Dean did something silly or is he a liar?

Are you done crying about him not getting a party?

[madfloridian]

65. And Dean's in Nigeria with Karl Rove and Andy Card among others today.

Oh, my.

At least I know you read my journal when I posted this last night.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3410

You didn't link but you read it.

[NJmaverick]

70. Here's a picture I know you will love

[Cherchez la Femme]

279. How many times are you going to spam that picture?

I'm not following any of this Obama/Dean crap, don't know anything beyond they're both canny politicians

but jebus god, what are you, a child?

[madfloridian]

71. Dean is now officially separating himself from the grassroots...

that he helped build.

He is not an insider either.

He is now going to shill for corporations.

Are we all happy now?

[stlsaxman]

287. How about "Dean has done a great job as chair and now he just wants a fucking break"!?!? n/t

[wndycty]

290. True but that doesn't fit the image some folks have created in their head. . .

. . .in this particular situation, this folks were offended by what they perceived to be unfair treatment of Dean and when he spoke up and said he wasn't unfairly treated they turned on Dean. Very funny, but really tragic.

[stlsaxman]

297. Bingo re funny/tragic.

[madfloridian]

72. Howard Dean just officially went back to his DLC roots.

He will make money, but will he speak honestly.

No, and that is a loss.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. Which is it?

Will he speak honestly, or is he a liar?

You're spinning so hard you're contradicting yourself.

[NJmaverick]

76. more like this is what happened to their head, when they heard Dr Dean

:nuke:

[madfloridian]

100. I posted it last night, so I knew.

I knew he was going to move away from the netroots whom he thinks kept him from getting a position with Obama.

Of course, it took a while.

[Cha]

73. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

You can't do this! This is one of the anti-Obama talking points on DU and you just shot it down. It's dead in the water.

I love Dean and I love Obama and I just knew they were fine.

"You know, people like to say those kinds of things just to stir things up," Dean said. "I'm not interested in stirring things up. We have a lot of important problems in front of us and we need to deal with that...not gossip and the internet."

I always took my cues from those leaders I supported..not anonymous shit stirrers on the internet.

[madfloridian]

78. He just shot the netroots down and zidzi cheers.

Zidzi is happy that Madfloridian is put in her place.

And the netroots are put in their places properly.

And the DLC has won again...and the corporations.

[StrongBad]

248. Just FYI...you sound paranoid

I know little about the drama that preceded this post, but just reading your replies to this thread have me scratching my head. Not everything that happens is a shot in the war between the DLC and netroots.

[madfloridian]

251. Yes, nuts and paranoid and irrational.

I know.

[madfloridian]

75. Neither an outsider or an insider.

When you don't stand for things, you become nothing.

He once stood for the netroots, but now he appears embarrassed by them. Obama is distancing from grassroots as well.

Message received.

It's time.

[mdmc]

79. who once stood for netroots? Both of them?

[NJmaverick]

80. Hmm are 6 replies enough to this OP????

maybe you should add another half dozen. :rofl:

[madfloridian]

83. Well, you were right. Dean's a sorry sell-out.

You win.

[NJmaverick]

89. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe you were wrong

about Obama and about the feud? I know that may be hard for you to accept, but stranger things have been known to happen.

[madfloridian]

93. No, I was wrong about Dean.

.

And Obama will do what he has to do...if it includes doing what Dean did by moving away from us...then so be it.

[wndycty]

291. Dean has not moved away from anyone. . .

. . .seriously. You are turning on Dean for some unexplainable reason.

[DevonRex]

140. Rather than doing that, it appears that *some* people drum up even worse

conspiracy theories to cover their butts. So, we now have the AO&DDs.

[scheming daemons]

And to think... I used to like you....

But you've gone off the deep end and are living in an alternate reality.



Sad.... hope we someday get the old madfloridian back.

[madfloridian]

84. Madfloridian just realized that she has been wrong for 5 years.

Sorry you think that is bad.

[scheming daemons]

85. No.. you were right for 5 years.... you're wrong now.

[madfloridian]

87. No, I have been forced to see the erroneous things I believed.

Talk about blinders?

[scheming daemons]

97. You're taking the side of Howard's little brother over Howard himself....

..

You're wrong.

[madfloridian]

159. There is no old or new madfloridian

There is a very taunted madfloridian who has twice seen the true nature of Howard Dean lately. He twice has warned off the netroots. Both times they were right, but he chose sides.

Sorry you don't like me anymore.

Maybe someone else can defend him now.

[janx]

192. OK, I'll defend him. He's not talking about the netroots who

have supported him and his ideas for the last five years. He's talking about how people like to stir things up in the media, Karen Tumulty being a prime example in this instance. She is speculating about a Politico article that speculates about the relationship between Dean and the Obama administration. The article that she's speculating about doesn't even cite sources. People just parrot these things online; it happens all the time. The media throw out a bone, often with no sources and with quotes taken out of context, and some bloggers jump all over it and proclaim it as fact.

Out of curiosity though, and because I respect you, what was the other time? You mentioned two times. What was the other one about?

[Shakespeare]

202. Excellent post, and you make an important distinction.

:thumbsup:

[merh]

184. I'm confused

Are you saying you are the netroots?

Nothing in Dean's statement provides that he is no longer supporting the netroots. He wants the netroots to know that there is no rift - that he thinks Kaine will do fine.

What did you want? Did you want him to come out and say something like "they turned on me, they don't care about the party as I care?"

The party is not the microcosm that is your view. It is more than just what you see and know. It is more than DU and the internets and realizing that will help the party retain its position in government. It would also help you in dealing with the feelings of rejection you are experiencing.

[madfloridian]

81. I was wrong about Howard Dean.

He's now going for convenience and expediency.

5 years and then he rebukes his own brother and the netroots.

You guys were right.

[wndycty]

90. THIS IS AWESOME. . .LOL

:kick:

[madfloridian]

91. Pat yourself on the back.

.

[wndycty]

98. Why?

I had nothing to do with this mental breakdown I am witnessing, its not my fault.

[Radical Activist]

228. It's not the first

nor will it be the last.

[firedupdem]

95. It's freaking me out.....

:scared:

[Buddyblazon]

94. Seriously...

chill out.

[madfloridian]

96. Am I the only one you are telling to chill out?

Why is that?

[NJmaverick]

101. I am betting because your actions paint you as a bit less than rational

[wndycty]

102. BINGO ---BING FUCKING O!

:kick:

[madfloridian]

103. So you guys are getting to call me irrational with impunity???

That's how it goes.

I finally see the lay of the land, and I get ridiculed for that.

[madfloridian]

119. So you are judging me with impunity? DU has changed.

You are now able to diagnose me as less than rational no matter what I say.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. We're judging you as less than rational...

because of what you say.

[madfloridian]

136. What part makes me less than rational? Feel free. You have immunity.

to say whatever you want here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. Well, there's the conspiracy theory...

that Obama and other Dems were being mean to Dean. Then, when Dean said it wasn't true, you hypocritically attacked Dean.

That's irrational.

Then, you pretend to be some sort of martyr and we're "bullying" you.

That's also irrational.

You showed up in a thread of mine the other day, falsely accused me of copy-catting your thread and of me stalking you.

That was batshit insane.

[DevonRex]

142. And apparently Dean is irrational, too, because now he has gone over

to the side that bullied HIM. And somehow that means that Dean was never a good guy. He was always a corporate shill DLCer in disguise. I'm gonna need a LOT more tinfoil.

:tinfoilhat:

[madfloridian]

145. Bullies always win.

Remember when my very short simple post about bullies got locked because the bullies attacked it?

I remember.

When a single person is singled out for ridicule, and no one stands up for them....bullies have won again.

[Shakespeare]

150. Oh, climb down off your cross already.

You = tiresome. I've always enjoyed your posts and the work you put into them, but you've wandered into the realm of the bizarre over the imagined Obama/Dean rift. There's a reason so many of us who've always been on your side in arguments are responding with a hearty :wtf:

[madfloridian]

154. No, actually it is a relief. It really is. Trying to defend people is tiring.

I don't have to bother.

[Shakespeare]

156. Enjoy your martyrdom, then.

:eyes:

You still haven't explained what there is to defend.

[madfloridian]

163. The netroots were right, and Dean is wrong.

And I don't defend him this time. He did the same thing a week or two ago, and I ignored it.

[Shakespeare]

170. So the netroots are more qualified to comment on something only Dean truly knows?

All right then.

edited to add: You STILL haven't said what needs to be defended.

[DevonRex]

220. I think this is it. She *thinks* that Dean has sold out the people who

gave him power and because of that she won't defend him anymore for that imagined sellout. She *thinks* he is lying about the diss and thus betrayed the netroots.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

224. I have always tried to be honest in my posts. I do think Dean used us

to try to keep peace in the party.

It is like he took a stand aside from the noisy nutroots. It is the party way.

[burythehatchet]

292. Please don't try to have a rational discussion with this lynch mob of cretinous buffoons

For them, winning is the only objective. They don't possess the emotional capacity to realize that winning is only the beginning. For them, the battle is over, we won, nothing else really matters.

[burythehatchet]

293. They only win if no one bloddies their face. They go after you because they know

you are calm and rational. Bullies will never pick on people who they know will retaliate because underneath it all they are cowards.

[DevonRex]

122. Oh. My. God. I changed this to printer format so I could read that

garbage. In essence she's saying that because Dean shot down the ugly rumors for the batshit crazy, disgusting lies that they are, then he's selling out the netroots. Unfuckingbelievable.

So he's supposed to lie, say there's some kind of rift, when there isn't and never has been - all to keep some anonymous rumor mongers happy. This is truly :scared: stuff.

No wonder he showed his utter contempt for the ones who have been spreading this garbage.

[wndycty]

125. Thank you

:kick:

[madfloridian]

130. No, I said I had been wrong for years.

Get out your printer format.

What do you guys want to quit taunting me?

[wndycty]

132. No one is taunting you, but you might pick up a few friends if you acted like a rational adult. . .

. . .

[madfloridian]

139. See how easily you can call me irrational? No problem to it at all.

You must be feeling very very good right now.

[Name removed]

294. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buddyblazon]

177. You are absolutely the only one I'm telling to chill out.

[Shakespeare]

118. Can't you just take Dean at his word?

I'm really baffled by this. Dean has always struck me as a no frills, get-down-to-business type who doesn't have much use for pomp and circumstance. I think that's part of what made him such a fantastic party chairman. He's the polar opposite of McAuliffe (who DOES have the ego that thrives on big, showy parties, and ass-kissing from big donors), so I've been completely unsurprised by the way events have unfolded over the last couple of weeks. Dean's as much "no drama" as Obama is, and I don't think there's been ANY sleight. If Obama didn't agree with Dean or didn't like Dean, he'd have been out after the convention in August. That very significantly did not happen, so I don't see any basis whatsoever to rumors that they don't get along or that Obama dissed him.

I've always liked Dean and have always seen him as a real visionary--that hasn't changed one bit. I'm rather stunned that you'd so quickly write him off, especially given your unwavering support for him over the years.

[madfloridian]

120. Well, it's time, as they say.

One can only defend so much.

Maybe others who care enough can bother. Not me.

[Shakespeare]

124. I don't understand--what needs to be defended? n/t

[DevonRex]

123. Apparently if he doesn't lie and say there's a rift, then he's all the sudden a DLC shill

of some kind.

[Jennicut]

137. DLC shills....lol Obama, Biden, Dean have never been part of the DLC

And yet some around here (or maybe its one) think Obama is a corporatist, sellout, and plain old meanie. Starting crap and spreading it is easier then admitting the truth-there is no problem. All the rest is rumors and innuendo.

[madfloridian]

141. Yes, he was when he was governor... very strong centrist.

He was often quoted by the DLC as one of their best.

[Jennicut]

143. But he is not now. First you love Dean then you don't

Please make up your mind. Look, I don't like when everyone dumps on one poster but a lot of us like Dean AND Obama. I don't get it.

[madfloridian]

148. I like them both. I just don't trust now.

Because when the truth is denied, harm follows.

[Jennicut]

158. Trusting a politician 24/7 in an oxymoron.

Doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Dean has done tons for the Dem party. Obama is the leader of our party. Whatever problems they have with each other, real or not, need to be worked out with each other. But that does not mean one gives up hope so easily. During tough times like WWII, if one gave up hope that fast you would be dead. You have to fight everyday for what you want. It does not reside in any "hero" or any politician. It resides in you. If you are dissatisfied the run for public office. Some people started on small local boards and worked there way up...Joe Biden to name one. I just hate to see someone who is so passionate about our country give up before Obama is even president.

[DevonRex]

144. I'm passing out free tinfoil. We're gonna need a LOT of it apparently.

Hell, maybe we need duct tape and plastic sheeting, too.

[madfloridian]

104. I was taunted for supporting Dean, now I am being taunted for not supporting.

What's going on?

[wndycty]

105. No one taunts you for supporting Dean, supporting Dean has always been a good thing. . .

. . .acting like an irrational supporter who has no sense of reality. . .not so much.

[madfloridian]

109. But now that I have seen the light...you are still ridiculing me?

What do you want from me?

What do you expect to stop the ridicule?

[wndycty]

112. What light have you seen?

Dean was and is a good leader who is very important to the Democratic party.

[madfloridian]

114. He used and manipulated the grassroots.

Until we won. Now we are not needed by either him or Obama.

We are expendable.

[wndycty]

121. Talk about self pity

Are you now calling Dean a trojan horse?

[DevonRex]

146. That's my take on it.

Edited to remove something that wasn't wise to say.

[madfloridian]

149. Wait, now you are able to compare me to that movie? With impunity?

You must be very proud.

[phleshdef]

126. I'm trying to figure out if your reaction here is you messin with people's heads or if you are nuts.

I find it hard to take the ridiculous conclusions you are drawing from this story very seriously.

[madfloridian]

151. Feel free to call me nuts with impunity. Everyone else does.

No problem.. they get satisfaction and jollies.

[snooper2]

174. I've read all of your posts in this thread smiling---

But this one mad me flat out

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[merh]

204. Now was that really necessary?

The thread is long enough and that is just being abusive.

[madfloridian]

106. It's kind of a free feeling...

not to really have that much passion about politics anymore.

Let them have it.

It's good to kill passion, life is simpler.

Ridicule is a good way to do that.

Dean just shot down the netroots. Another form of ridicule.

[wndycty]

107. Statements like that are what get your taunted. . .

. . .not your passionate support of Dean.

[madfloridian]

111. What is wrong with that statement. Be Specific.

[wndycty]

115. The fact that you have lost a passion for politics because Dean says he supports Kaine. . .

. . .and he didn't feel like he was dissed.

[madfloridian]

117. Right.

If that is what you think.

[charlie and algernon]

108. he just shot down those who post false rumours

and conspiracy theories.

[madfloridian]

110. That has been the netroots...many blogs and forums.

.

[charlie and algernon]

113. blogs are nothing but conspiracy theorists and gossipers?

there are plenty of thoughtful, truth telling, reasonable people on the net. Dean is shooting down the nutters and gossipers.

[madfloridian]

116. You are right of course. How true.

All those internet folks who never tell the truth, just post anything.

[charlie and algernon]

127. well yeah, there are folks in the internets who lie and spew insanity

to make it clear for you, here is what Dean was saying


truth tellers = Good

nutters and liars = BAD

[janx]

129. There are people in the more traditional media who do it too.

ALWAYS check for cited sources. The US media have become more like the UK tabloid media in recent years.

Howard Dean knows this as well or better than anybody.

[charlie and algernon]

135. of course

it's a shame that Dean even has to acknowledge these idiotic rumours.

[DevonRex]

134. *snort* That gets it down to brass tacks right there. Thank you.

That's exactly what it boils down to. I love Dean. He doesn't mince words and he certainly told it like it is. But apparently it was too complicated for some folks to understand. Hopefully your succinct explanation will help. :)

[SpartanDem]

128. This is funny

Dean's a sell out now, I guess that's easier than accepting the TRUTH that there is no feud, there was no diss and Dean supports Kaine. I never thought watching someone loose their grip on reality would be so funny

[madfloridian]

133. is it satisfying? Do you feel good?

It's all good with me now.

[FrenchieCat]

157. you know, Mad, you are a great poster here, and you have given so much.....

of yourself in the quest for the truth for many years. I haven't always agreed with some of your conclusions, but I respect you for them.

Unfortunately, what I am witnessing today is your unashamed relunctance in admitting that perhaps you didn't have all of the info required to conclude as you did in your recent postings, and that there may be a possibly you were incorrect in your assessment as to what was going on between Dean and Obama.

And so, you had a choice to make today, after Dean told his part;

You could either humbly admit that you may have been mistaken about what the truth of this matter was, and that perhaps you read more into the slim bit of info that you had in reference to our Prez Elect's intent (because it really doesn't make any sense at all, as Obama would not carry out a public vendetta, in particular against Howard Dean from what I can tell) and motive.....

OR

you could choose to determine that you have been correct all along, and that Howard Dean is currently lying to cover Obama dissing him and that Dean is simply being the ultimate good soldier martyr taking one for the team.

It appears that you have chosen yourself as the truth teller, and Howard Dean as a deliberate liar.......

Could it be then that you are just not interested in admitting your error, and are willing to sell Howard Dean out in order to protect what you perceive as your truthtelling?

If, so, I'm a bit surprised that it would be that easy for you to discount Howard Dean's own words,
and buy into a rumor in order to make yourself right.

In fact, I'm a bit stunned.

[madfloridian]

161. Actually this time the netroots were right... and they got dissed.

If that's the game, then I won't play it anymore.

[NJmaverick]

162. You should listen to her Mad, FC's words are both true and wise

[madfloridian]

164. She is always wise

And I am irrational.

[NJmaverick]

167. You are clearly upset and most people are not at their best when they are upset

Just take a momement and consider you might have jumped the gun on the Obama/Dean feud. The sources were less than ideal as there were no direct quotes from either man or either man's staff. If you truly supported Howard Dean, all these years, I can't believe you would toss him under the bus, rather than consider the possibility that you might have been mistaken. We all make mistakes, what's important is how we handle those mistakes.

[madfloridian]

171. Wait a minute. It was no mistake. Dean made the mistake.

when he said those words.

Why would I be upset? I am only being called nuts and irrational by everyone in this thread.

Yes, there has been and is a problem with his being shut out. He can not be the one to admit it.

But he does not have to diss the netroots and his own brother. That is just disloyal.

[NJmaverick]

172. How loyal are you? The minute Howard Dean says something that you don't like

you call him a liar and a traitor. That isn't exactly the stuff loyalty is made of. If you truly supported the man you would believe what he has to say, until his words are proven false.

[madfloridian]

179. You are truly amazing

Dean just dissed the group that empowered him

[kenfrequed]

277. This is not new

The treatment of the netroots is parallel to the treatment of the left in the democratic party as a whole. We get asked in to vote and we volunteer and door-knock and mark and protest and man the phones and what not but whenever we get someone in we get shoved aside or shown the door.

At best Dean was slightly left of center, only slightly. His 50 state plan was an inspiration and it tacked the party to the left only by consequence of it being populist.

The other strategy had the Dems trying to pick off individual districts here and there focusing tons of energy on supposedly vulnerable conservative districts. The focusing of energy there on a national level tacked the party that direction to maximize media power. Of course this is inevitably a loser strategy as it pushes the party away from Democratic populism and towards some kind of non-populist economic conservatist centrism which really neither appeals to actual liberals, nor conservatives, nor the "undecided"/moderate sorts.

This with the decidedly conservative DLC consciously pushing the party away from "special interest groups" Read: Unions, environmental groups, teachers groups, peace activists etc. has resulted in the pushing the party this way.

Dean was not some great hero, when he ran in 2004 I went with Kucinich and I had little doubt about my supporting him in the primary. He was the most progressive voice on the stage. Sadly too many Democrats, even a good deal of them here seem to believe in some magical dragon named "electability." Which modern Democrats define as being as dull as possible and avoiding progressives whenever possible. Some of them seem to treat us worse than Republicans.

Dean chose party over how he was treated and how his strategy was treated. He chose to put on a strong face and try to look past the Clintonoid cabinet being arranged. I don't think this was a wise thing and his desire to look strong in this fashion might appear nice to party loyalists, but I am not convinced it was a good move in terms of moving forward progressive policy.

Take heart madfloridian. We can still move forward.

[FrenchieCat]

169. This is not about me versus you.....

It's about whether after 5 years of supporting an individual as strongly as you have, you are willing to throw it away, as opposed to entertaining the fact that you and others may have jumped to a conclusion that wasn't accurate.

As I said before, the choice is yours, not mine or anyone else on these boards.

Howard Dean has spoken, and you choose to disbelieve him. That's really the crux of it.

[madfloridian]

180. That's about the gist of it.

He knows he is wrong.

[FrenchieCat]

185. Shorthand for.......Mad was right, still is, and always will be.....

Although you still haven't explained why Obama would diss Dean publicly, although one cannot find an example of him doing this to anyone else.

So according to you, Obama would choose not to diss McCain, Palin, Lieberman, Clinton but would choose to diss the man that assisted him in becoming President. And the reason would be because Rahm Emanuel said that it should be so? And now Howard Dean would rather lie than tell the truth, because he's a martyr taking one for the cause, and dissing the netroot in the process?

I'm sorry Mad.....but this scenario is Mad.

[madfloridian]

189. It wasn't done publicly at all. It was done covertly.

Lieberman is beloved overtly. The Clintons are back in power positions. Dean is trying to be a good soldier and as a result is dissing those who empowered him.

[janx]

155. No, it's not funny. n/t

[firedupdem]

153. Guys don't fall for the okie doke....

I think the goal is to have the thread locked.

[Jennicut]

160. I am counting down the minutes...

[DevonRex]

166. Yeah, you're right. Heaven forbid the right information is out there.nt

[flvegan]

168. That's my swingset, and that's my sandbox. I'm not allowed to go in the deep end.

[NJmaverick]

173. Last time you were allowed in the deep end of the sand box

it took us nearly half a day to dig you out.

[flvegan]

178. That's where I saw the leprechaun.

He told me to burn things.

[madfloridian]

175. There was no mistake about the issue. Dean should have been honest.

But I guess he could not in Samoa. It was would dissed them.

He as well as Obama have now fallen for the "grassroots" are dangerous meme. I did not expect that. I think more reporters will speak out and some day I will be deemed sane again.

Meanwhile.

Magnanimous

"# Karen Tumulty Says:
Friday, January 9, 2009 at 9:42 am

PD: I don't think that would cut the legs out of the story at all. If Dean is magnanimous in public, it doesn't mean that he--or, just as importantly, the people he has worked with, who continue be important to the party--feel that way in private.
.
Nor does it excuse the Obama Team for refusing to make a small gesture that wouldn't have cost them a penny. It is a telling story. I just don't know precisely what it is telling us. Is this Rahm not letting go of old grievances? A signal that Obama's folks want to take the party in a different strategic and tactical direction?"

And more from Jim Dean and others:

Jim said his brother would have rescheduled, he said things were rough over Thanksgiving...and others speak out.

Someday Howard Dean will realize he should not have done that, and someday I will be considered rational again.

For now Howard Dean is wrong.

[madfloridian]

186. In trying to be politically proper and not bother the insiders...

Howard Dean just marginalized the groups that have empowered him through the years.

It's called expediency.

[wyldwolf]

176. Locking

Flamebait.

[madfloridian]

182. Relax, ww.

Threads are not locked when only one person is being taunted.

[Forkboy]

181. Madfloridian is still a better DUer than half the knuckleheads in this thread.

[madfloridian]

183. It's hazardous to defend me. You will pay for it.

But thanks anyway.

[Forkboy]

237. I can take it.

:)

[wyldwolf]

187. I won't argue that point with you.. but...

"knuckleheads?"

[Forkboy]

238. LOL

I should never type before my first Mountain Dew.

[Cha]

188. I'm just glad Dean and Obama

are on the same page..that's what's important to our country.

And, that's why I've been on DU to help in any small way to get the bushits out and get our Democratic President in..

Not for all this bullshit.

[madfloridian]

190. Yes, zidzi, we have figured that out.

I am all bullshit now.

That's a shame.

[SidneyCarton]

210. Even the wise fail in their wisdom from time to time.

When one clings to one's judgment despite all indicators pointing otherwise, it draws fire. Sometimes it proves prescient, but under the current circumstances, it has proven folly.

[madfloridian]

218. Now I see Dean doing the wrong thing, call him out on it....

and it is called folly and I get called crazy.

Amazing.

People always said I was wrong to support him, and when I agree I am called irrational.

[SidneyCarton]

223. How is he doing the wrong thing?

Is it because it is objectively wrong, or because it does not fit with your vision of him?

Perhaps you have constructed an image of Mr. Dean that did not fit with the man himself. Maybe he did what he thought was right?

When he was Chairman, Dean valued heavily the idea of party unity (hence PUMA hatred of him) perhaps he sees these actions as the best possible ones to promote this value?

He has no obligation to live his life in opposition to anything just because you or the netroots demand it of him, he is free to quit when he cares to instead of dying for the cause.

To assume otherwise and refuse to accept it when it is plainly demonstrated by the man's own words is folly.

I'm sorry.

[Cha]

239. Great points, Sidney.. and Dean

does value party unity because he's capable of seeing the big pic. Dean has been prescient so many times..like Obama.

[madfloridian]

247. No, there is no obligation at all.

I don't think I said that.

I am just realizing that my trust was misplaced. That is my right to believe that as well.

He is another voice now putting out word that the Netroots are noisy and not truthtellers.

This time we were right, and it hurts to see him do that.

[grantcart]

240. Very true Forkboy

(but again that is not a very high bar lol)

[Forkboy]

241. I'm not sure, but I think you just managed to insult everyone.

In which case... :rofl:

:D

[Generator]

191. Dean has shown nothing but class and character

The question mark continues to be about Obama's/Rahm's intention in the future.

I think it's probably true Dean isn't/wasn't upset because he gets it's not about him. There are huge problems that are more important than him. And might I say to the Obama cheerleaders-the country, the war, women's right etc. are more important than Ohama. Gasp. Shock. We care about issues not the characters involved. At least some of us do.

Pointing out that if we are pro-grassroots, pro-Howard Dean, pro-gay rights or anything else does not equate to being Anti-Obama-that is just how your small minds have characterized it. Because for some of you-it seems it's all about Obama, the man-with his shirt off, the smartest man that ever lived you think he is, the celebrity or however you see him and NOT the issues. That's why it's so damn knee jerk-everything that is ever said that is critical of your "man" is automatically equated to "you Dean/Hillary/Kuchinich...fill in name..people always hated Obama."

Also that line is laughable-"he didn't know he was invited because he was already on the plane." HAAAAAAAAAAA. Hint-if you are invited to a party to congratulate you and your job done-they usually let you know. That says not invited.

[NJmaverick]

197. I am calling foul on you. Until you admit your mistake you have a hell of a lot of nerve

calling anyone an "Obama Cheerleader"

Generator (1000+ posts) Thu Jan-08-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. Yeah and Rick Warren is his spiritual representation
Fuck the religious right. YEAH HOWARD DEAN IS THE REAL THREAT. I am so glad Obama thinks that CNN propaganda is the absolute truth. WHAT A LEADER HE IS!!!!!!! So courageous. So UNIFYING as long has he doesn't have to be associated with those loud nasty liberals.


Time for a little humility. Which when you have been exposed as wrong, is usually a good thing.

[Generator]

219. I have no problem with my post

Dean was not invited. Obama has not acted like Dean has any worth to him. Dean is a persona non grata. That has nothing to do with how Dean feels about it. That post was how I feel about it. And still do.

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

209. You're one of "the gossipers" Dean is

talking about. And, absolutely no use in helping us with "the important problems in front of us"..

"You know, people like to say those kinds of things just to stir things up," Dean said. "I'm not interested in stirring things up. We have a lot of important problems in front of us and we need to deal with that...not gossip and the internet."

[Generator]

222. Yeah, and I'm standing in the way of that! What tripe

This is political discussion board. We aren't making policy here. We can gossip and bitch all we want. So stop telling us to shut the fuck up. It's not working. I suppose you love to mock tinfoilers too. Maybe they are dead wrong, maybe they have some truth to it. I like to listen to all points of view. Otherwise it would be nothing but a cheerleading site with a standard agreed on reality. Like the main steam media.

[Cha]

230. Go ahead..

Wallow.

[madfloridian]

231. And I am another of them I guess. And so is his brother.

Party loyalty at all costs.

Yeh, that Jim...always stirring stuff up.

[janx]

212. ???

"Also that line is laughable-"he didn't know he was invited because he was already on the plane." HAAAAAAAAAAA. Hint-if you are invited to a party to congratulate you and your job done-they usually let you know. That says not invited."

Um...what party? :wtf:

[Generator]

225. Party as a metaphor

The announcement of the new DNC head. Dean could have been there but they didn't "mention" when it was until he was on the plane-therefore making it impossible to attend.

[janx]

232. Oh, so they PLANNED it that way, did they?

Were they trying to FOOL Dean? :rofl:

Dean's own words were that he was to be on a plane to Samoa. He didn't have to be at that news conference--which was hardly a party, metaphor or no.

[madfloridian]

193. Dean took the politically expedient way out

and put the netroots down. He is in a forum with Karl Rove in Nigeria today, and making good money.

He should have handled it better, but yes, there is a real problem. He has to be gracious, but you don't slam those who helped you get a voice.

[TZ]

194. Why are so convinced YOU are right

WHEN THE PERSON INVOLVED is saying you are wrong? Wow. I've heard about the Joan of Arc type behavior but I have NEVER seen it in action before. You really really have the martyr complex.

[madfloridian]

196. Just think about it a while instead of calling me more names.

Think about it a while. Dean was politically expedient.

[charlie and algernon]

198. well this is either a well played joke or you're bat-shit insane

if this is all a joke, congratulations, you've fooled alot of people, lol.

[madfloridian]

199. There you go..another name...batshit insane.

Amazing.

No I really think Dean is wrong in this case, and I think he fooled me about it. I thought he would be honest.

[TZ]

200. tell me why would Dean sell out the grassroots.

He's got to be the most bluntly outspoken Dem I've ever seen? Can you not see that you are PROJECTING your fears and biases on him? Come on. Nobody can be this crazy....

[madfloridian]

201. Another name...crazy. Amazing.

No, I sincerely believe he said it to keep the peace, and we are the most convenient and easily dissed.

I think he's a good man, but he is wrong.

[Shakespeare]

206. She won't tell you why. She wouldn't tell me why, either.

And it's because there's nothing to support her bizarre claims. I'm baffled by her rejection of Dean, considering her allegiance the past five years.

[madfloridian]

221. He is waiting for crumbs from the new administration.

Crumbs that won't come. Why would he do this? To keep the peace in the party.

:shrug:

[Lilith Velkor]

280. Dean ain't waiting for shit

He is going on his merry way back to the Shire, now that Sauron has been defeated. (And he will make loads of cash giving speeches.)

Seriously, he'll do fine.

[FlaGranny]

286. What are netroots?

Is it DU only or does it consist of people from all walks of life? Fact is that not everyone on the net tells the truth, even here at DU. Some of us spread false rumors and lies. The net is like the rest of the planet. It is composed of the good and the bad and the in between.

[PBS Poll-435]

195. K&R

Except that it wasn't just "anti-Obama Dems."

[madfloridian]

203. It's how the political game is played. We are the expendable ones.

And always have been. We were lucky we did have a voice for a while.

Some of you are trying so hard to make me look crazy that you are not looking at the over all picture of how things are happening.

[phleshdef]

208. Christ, just admit you made a mistake. You aren't going to be able to successfully spin this.

[madfloridian]

215. No, there really is a problem.

And he is not admitting to it.

I would not mind that, but it's the way he did it.

I mean he was on the plane to Samoa when the event occurred..and he doesn't know if got invited?

Come on, spare me.

He used the netroots to make excuses.

[phleshdef]

207. I can't believe the length MF is going to in this thread to avoid admitting being wrong.

There never was a feud. Howard Dean was never being treated badly by the Obama people. Howard Dean did NOT trash the "netroots movements", he trashed people that perpetuate rumors without having any basis in fact, those are NOT the same people. You know that, STOP PRETENDING OTHERWISE.

Howard Dean has been involved in campaigning and/or holding office for 27 years now. He wants to pursue a semi-retirement at this point and do speaking engagements at his own leisure.

Those are the facts that we KNOW. If you would just admit that you, like many others around here, jumped the gun and there was nothing to the Dean/Obama heat story then you wouldn't be getting disrespected so much in this thread.

[mdmc]

213. thanks for the fill in,,, as I just couldn't figure out what was up

I stay out of the fray and couldn't figure out what all the drama was about...

It seems to me that my dear friend MF simply thought that Dean was the real deal alla Kucinich or Hinchey... That he somehow was above $ and the DLC...
I don't think Obama "dissed" Dean any more than he will end up "dissing" the left in general. It is good politics. The left ain't goin nowhere (where, Nader?), so no need to throw them a bone.
Run to the middle, suck up the corporate cash, and get reelected. There is no doubt that Obama will be better then GOP2012 - that is all he needs to be --- better then the other viable alternative...

Anyway, peace and low stress... And God Bless Madfloridian... I've loved her posts for years now...

[madfloridian]

214. I knew he was centrist. But he always tried to open the party to the grassroots.

Now he is just like the others, being politically correct...still hoping for a crumb or something from the WH.

It's sad.

[madfloridian]

216. No, this time I am right. Not crazy. Right. And seeing how we were manipulated

for years. But at least our Democrats are in power, and that is good.

[madfloridian]

229. He was on the plane and didn't know if he was invited?

Just think about that. That is called trying to keep the peace by saying that we are the ones who are wrong.

[madfloridian]

217. Thank you guys for at least telling me you respect me before you call me crazy.

Appreciated.

I just think my eyes are finally opened now to the last 5 years. It takes me a while to catch on, but I do eventually.

[jackpan1260]

233. I don't know you enough to respect you

but you do come across as a bit nuts on this thread.
It is simple: I don't agree with him about everything, but I believe Dean's words. His actions back up his words. What is the problem?

[madfloridian]

249. Only a "bit nuts"?

This time he is being expedient for party peace.

[Two Americas]

234. pretty transparent

Put the bait out there. Carefully and painstakingly set the trap just so. Rally the howling snarling mob. Keep stirring.

Of course Dena would make conciliatory remarks. He is a smart politician. So what? That has nothing to do with what people here say.

MF has done a lot of great work. You may disagree with her, but when presented with a convincing and persuasive argument that she mas made an error, I have always seen her admit that she was wrong. That sticks out and is memorable because it is so rare around here. I suspect that she has stung many of the people in this thread - not with smears and put downs and -personal attacks, as people use against her but rather by the strength of her arguments - and that is the real motivation; a desire for revenge. You saw an opportunity to provoke yet another hate fest, and grabbed it and exploited it as much as you could.

I think it is pretty obvious that if the people who so gleefully join the snarling, snapping mob could actually defend their point of view, they would not need to resort to these tactics.

[NJmaverick]

243. If you were as honest, as you constantly claim others are not

You would be admitting YOUR mistake and not continue with your never ending barrage of intellectually dishonest attacks


Two Americas (1000+ posts) Sat Jan-10-09 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. so malicious and destructive
Why not argue your point of view forthrightly and honestly and debate people with whom you disagree?

I haven't seen any Dean supporters throwing any temper tantrums, and even if they were that is no justification for portraying all who have spoken in support of Dean the way you are doing here.

[madfloridian]

245. So now Two Americas is not honest either?

I don't admit my mistake because I did not make one. Dean is wrong and is playing a media game here.

So you keep quotes from everyone to get back at them for disagreeing?

[NJmaverick]

250. Here is a video for you, I kept thinking of this

as I read your posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9KlQPX1qiE

[madfloridian]

254. Thank you for comparing me to Captain Queeg. Truly amazing.

How easy it is to keep personal attacks going when I am the victim.

[NJmaverick]

255. Did it ever occur to you people are simply commenting on your words and actions

like posting on the same thread over a dozen times, calling the man you supported a liar (with out any supporting evidence) just because his comments make you wrong and the like?

[madfloridian]

257. Well, I thought the rule is we can defend outselves against attacks?

Or has that changed.

[wndycty]

288. Victim? More like you are playing the victim. . .

:kick:

[Two Americas]

266. right

That is what I said. I stand by that, and welcome any and all debate.

[DevonRex]

267. Seems to me that Dean's own words were pretty forthright. Thank you for posting them.

It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for anybody to argue with his own words with any sort of credibility.

[Cha]

246. I like that Dean's words were brought on

here. Dean is a leader and so is Obama.. I don't know what the agenda is for the posters here who want to divide them but they won't win.

[madfloridian]

259. No, Dean is no longer of our leaders. Not at national level, not anymore.

I posted this all last night, right out in the open in my journal.

Does it feel good to pile on?

[sniffa]

261. That's the OP's M.O.

[Uzybone]

236. This was a great thread

No apologies or acceptance that they made mistakes when they tired to smear Obama by using the good Dr Dean. Instead they turn on Dean and call him a liar.

Actually I'm being to kind calling the anti-Obama smears "mistakes" . They are orchestrated lies by some DUers who are determined to cut Obama off at the knees.

[TheWraith]

244. I'll never fathom how such a cynical group as DU can be so gullible at times.

Not everyone of course, but some people here will still swallow whole tripe like this story, or the thing about Obama and company supposedly flip-flopping on DADT, when NONE of them said anything of the sort.

[NJmaverick]

253. Simple waiting for all the facts, before forming an opinion requires maturity

and patience.



These days many people get their exercise jumping to conclusions, flying off the handle, dodging responsibilities, bending the rules, running down everything, circulating rumors, passing the buck, stirring up trouble, shooting the bull, digging up dirt, slinging mud, throwing their weight around, beating the system, and pushing their luck.

[madfloridian]

256. Has it occurred to you that I am right about this?

And that Dean did what he had to do to survive in our new centrist/right climate where he is not appreciated anyway?

It is just that he had to put down the netroots to survive. He had to shut us up.

[Cha]

264. And, you're being accused

of starting trouble 'cause you post Dean's own words! How dare you bring some reality into the pic:bounce:

[NJmaverick]

265. It's not like I didn't make an effort to warn people, before they made fools of themselves

nomad1776 (1000+ posts) Thu Jan-08-09 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Huffington Post article was long in insinuation and short on facts
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 04:22 PM by nomad1776
seems the author has a personal agenda to pursue, which does not involve the accurate reporting of the news. It would be prudent to wait until the facts are known, before forming an opinion.

[Cha]

269. The corporate media can't be trusted

(now I'm leary about some of the articles on huffpost) and after 8 years of bush my bullshit barometer is honed and operative.

[NJmaverick]

272. I think it's more important to examine what is written, rather than the source

Look at what is actually quoted, sift through the facts. That is the key. Few sources will outright lie, but many will attempt to mislead and decieve.

[madfloridian]

252. In the past I have always corrected and apologized if proven wrong.

This time I will not do either, because I am right and Dean is wrong.

Do what you guys have to do. Do what makes you happy.

I am at peace with what I know, what I think will come out later, and saddened that Dean handled it this way.

Go ahead and call me anything with impunity.

It's easy to do it.

[NJmaverick]

262. Ahh, but the strawberries that's...

that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist, and I'd have produced that key if they hadn't of pulled the Caine out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officers...

[madfloridian]

263. Yes, you are getting away with calling me Capn Queeq and ridiculing if I defend myself.

Amazing.

[marimour]

268. Do you have any inside knowledge or something?

Like have you talked to one of these sources personally? Or are you basing all of this on the articles that you read? If its the later, have you considered the fact that you actually may be wrong? Faced with Dean's own words have you even considered it for a second?

[madfloridian]

275. I am not wrong on this.

I have talked to others who do know things are very wrong.

But would it matter at all if I turn out right or wrong? I am judged and found wanting already.

While I realize Dean was trying to be gracious for the sake of the party, he should know by now who and what on the internet to trust. His statement was rather blanket condemnation.

What can I say?

Look at the terms used to describe me today. Just look at them.

And realize that I had four highly recommended posts locked that attacked no one but that were turned into flamefests. One had 89 recommends.

I am very much into truth now from all of our party. They have snookered us far too long..then played up to the right wing while calling us fringe.

If it is Dean not telling the truth even if doing it for party unity, then I speak up.

But the damage is done with the thread, isn't it?

[DevonRex]

258. To not accept Dean's own words as the truth is like the Birthers

not accepting that Obama was born in the US.

Dean says there is NO RIFT. HE is the one who would KNOW.

The birthers continue their conspiracy theories, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

People who wish to promote a fissure in the party continue THEIR little theories, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I, for one, will take Howard Dean's word above that of anybody on the internet who claims some type of "knowledge" about the situation.

[madfloridian]

260. Right.

.

[jackpan1260]

270. I agree, Jennifer2 is right.

Serious flat earth society stuff going on in this thread.

[LynneSin]

273. I remember Dean saying he was doing this for 4 years

and that he planned to step down after the 2008 elections

I guess we all just have selective memory

[firedupdem]

274. I don't understand how that fact continues to be missed. He said

four years and he was done. I hold Dean in high regard. I would think that anybody who does would be happy that he's not involved in a rift.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

278. That's not what the gist of this was about.

Of course he planned to step down.

[fadedrose]

276. I hope your information is more reliable than your opinion....

Liking Howard Dean and wanting him to be part of the government does not translate in any language to being "Anti-Obama." I wish that kind of senseless comment would never come up again.

We do tend to be anti-DLC, but that's another story and it might come up again next election. But right now, we have enough on our plates just getting the kids' dogs....

Oh, that adviser was Rham Emanuel and I cannot tell a lie. I don't think I like him. Still love Obama & Family tho.

[K Gardner]

284. This thread made my head hurt ! Thanks for posting this :-) K&R

[Mithreal]

285. Why are Jim Dean and DFA stirring things up?

Some of the comments made by folks who expressed glee wrt Dean supporters getting the "facts" wrong are a little disturbed.

Howard Dean is a team player and is not interested in stirring things up. If there was nothing there to be stirred up then why would he even say that?

For those that think we shouldn't have opinions before all the facts are in, all the facts never are. You all have received email requests from DFA that ask to sign the petition to urge the new DNC chair to maintain the 50 state strategy? The idea that the new DNC chair would deviate is odd in itself but I suppose the petition could just be expressing how important it is with no assumption that it will end. And who cares that the new DNC chair doesn't support our community's goals? He is about the new Democratic Party and is a great guy, right?

DU is about stirring things up, no? Stirring things up is not what the new Democratic Party is about though, right?

[Odin2005]

295. I see the Obama-haters have already turned on Dean now.

:puke:

[Cha]

296. Since this thread is in my face right now as

number 1 in GDP I will post Dean's message to me and millions of others.


z --

Four years ago, I became chairman with a mandate for bottom-up reform -- grow the Democratic Party in your neighborhood and every other community in America.

We promised to compete in every state, for every level of office. And we demanded a party that would stand up for itself and fight for an agenda that reflects our values.

When the 447 members of the Democratic National Committee elected me, it wasn't because they thought I could accomplish these things.

They elected me because I knew that only you could.

I believed then -- and I believe now -- that every single one of us must take responsibility for building our party. It's not enough to simply vote for Democrats -- in order to win, every one of us must deliver our message and values into our own communities. We must organize.

Four years later, we have more Democratic state legislators and governors. We expanded the electoral map, regained a majority in both houses of Congress, and put a Democratic president in the White House.

We did it by rebuilding the party infrastructure from the ground up, creating a truly national voter database, and developing 21st century campaign tools that merged traditional organizing with new technology.

I said on my first day on the job that this wouldn't be my chairmanship -- it would be ours together. And you reshaped the political landscape over these four years.

Next week, I will step down after four years as chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

I'd like to congratulate Governor Tim Kaine of Virginia, who will take my place as Chairman on January 21st. He will be an excellent leader in the years ahead.

I know a lot of people are wondering what to expect as we move forward. I can assure you that Governor Kaine will continue the grassroots approach that has made our party and Barack Obama's campaign so successful.

Governor Kaine knows first-hand what a commitment to fighting everywhere means -- Virginia is a prime example of what can happen when we refuse to concede any part of this country and build our organization everywhere.

In that spirit of grassroots engagement, Governor Kaine has offered to answer your questions personally in a video on Democrats.org.

Submit your question for incoming DNC Chairman Tim Kaine.

Democrats have made great gains over the past four years, but we still have a lot of work to do to get this country back on course.

Governor Kaine knows that the strength of our party comes from the bottom up, and he will need your support as we take the next steps to grow our party and elect Democrats everywhere.

You've done a lot over the last six months, and over the last four years. You've donated money, talked to friends, knocked on doors. You've invested yourself in the political process. And it's tempting to take it easy after a big victory.

But these are not short-term investments. We will only create lasting change if that sense of obligation to one another and responsibility for the common good becomes a permanent part of our lives.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."

We cannot be silent. We cannot leave it to others to see this through.

Thank you for everything you did for our cause in this election and over the last four years.

But we are not stopping here. And even though my term as chairman is ending, I will be with you -- and with our new chairman -- every step of the way.

Thank you again,

Howard Dean

Dean:loveya:

[ecstatic]

299. Good

Dean :loveya:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

298. It's clear that Howard Dean doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's not like he can speak for himself or anything.

:sarcasm:

[tekisui]

300. This thread should be locked.

It has turned in to one long call out attack on a longtime DUer.