I just want to say this, Kerry looks incredible in this position.

[PresidentObama]

He is a fantastic choice for Senate Foreign Relation Committee Chairman, and if today is any indication of things to come--I'm impressed already!!

Kick for Kerry!!

:kick:

[lostnotforgotten]

1. Kerry Lied On Live CSPAN Interviewing Clinton - Said Hamas Broke Cease Fire

Clinton just lied right after him by parroting same.

[karynnj]

6. That is what most mainstream people have said

Hamas has been sending missiles into Israel - that is clearly a violation of teh cease fire. Was there something Israel did before the missiles?

[BlueMTexpat]

107. Jimmy Carter believes that the whole invasion could have been avoided, had the will existed.

And he also states clearly that the truce was first broken by Israel in November. Carter has a lot of demonstrated credibility, experience and wisdom in I-P relations.

*******
An Unnecessary War
By Jimmy Carter
Thursday, January 8, 2009; A15

I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.
<...>
... rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.
<...>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010702645_pf.html

*********
It would be preferable if those who purport to be experts in foreign policy might on occasion pay attention to more than US media talking heads.

[LittleClarkie]

13. And the truth is...?

Links, perhaps?

It's not a lie if it's what they think has happened. Perhaps they are merely mistaken?

[Unsane]

14. *crickets*

[EFerrari]

62. Crickets, indeed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8085144&mesg_id=8085401

[lostnotforgotten]

21. Many Threads At DU With the Truth - Just Search DU - Doing Your Research Is Not My Job

eom

[MarjorieG]

61. Situation more complicated than knee-jerk blame on Israel, whose escalating war I don't support.

If you listened to Kerry on this, and other issues, you heard a complexity of how we get to equal treatment of Palestinians and Israelis. As well, a nuance of his understanding the problems everywhere. He's been at foreign policy and negotiations, successfully, for a long while, and deserves your respect.

The pot shots, assumptions and certainty on this blog really aggravates me. And this time, because you heard it on Mike Malloy!

The entire hearing was informative and reassuring in all the performances, but the only thing I hear from pundits is the stoked meme of Kerry vs Clinton, and the GOP questioning of Clinton's global initiatives, a small part of what was discussed.

[EFerrari]

64. If you missed Amnesty International's report, you can hardly blame the poster or Malloy.

[MarjorieG]

71. While not a blanket apologist for Israel, and over-reactions, Amnesty and others are often...

reflexively anti-Israel. Often Israel looks for reasons, over-reacts, like an abused kid who can't get out of destructive/self-destructive behavior pattern. Like with Lebanon.

That said, Hamas has more money and clout than moderate leadership in Palestine. Now with Israel, engaging in this before Obama takes office, and in time for elections (where Hamas was losing support). Now a war, and guess what.

[EFerrari]

73. Your speculation and evaluation doesn't change the facts.

Israel broke the ceasefire and even CNN ran it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

[MarjorieG]

77. I can't watch You-Tube, Each side takes advantage. Are you talking first strike, provocations by

Hamas using civilians as shields, or after shelling began?

Just want to say to progressive sites, which always support the underdog, Palestinians were certainly exploited by Arafat and others. That doesn't negate our commitment to Israel, that they have legitimate grievance, but must change behavior. As many Israelis are trying to impact their leadership, as we tried with Bush.

Kerry was sensitive to the history and the difficult task of equal treatment, difficulty in supporting the underfunded moderates. This thread of liar, liar was an insult to the complexity of the problems, and to Kerry.

[EFerrari]

79. This isn't about "progressive sites", but objectively about what happened. Try this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8085144&mesg_id=8085401

[karynnj]

95. The CNN report is chaotic and proves nothing

It is not convincing that they have a Palestinian saying the reporting that Hamas broke the ceasefire is wrong. They then have their talking head leaving through highlighted news accounts detailing a widely reported Israeli bombing of a tunnel (into Israel) in South Gaza on November 4.

However, that was not the first time Israel bombed a tunnel into Israel - and it was not considered something that endangered the ceasefire then. (Here's a January 2007 article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6312061.stm ) Note that it says the suicide bomber who entered via the tunnel endangered the cease fire. Yet, on CNN, their crack reporter shows the news accounts that he was able to dig up (proving he could google for articles) and even high light in yellow! However - what did he actually show. That Israel destroyed a tunnel - and 6 members of Hamas were killed.

Now, Hamas called that a massive breach of the ceasefire. I think it is more reasonable to consider it as merely defending the integrity of their border. The tunnels were NOT innocent.

I think that Israel has over reacted in its response - which it has done in the past - and at least at one point it was stated policy, designed to deter attacks, that they would hit back harder.

[EFerrari]

102. Okay. What about Amy Goodman's reporting?

Leading Israeli Scholar Avi Shlaim: Israel Committing “State Terror” in Gaza Attack, Preventing Peace
Shlaimweb

The assault on Gaza is entering its nineteenth day, with no end in sight. Israel continues its intense bombardment of the territory as Israeli troops edge closer to the heart of Gaza City. Nearly 1,000 Palestinians have been killed, more than 4,400 injured, many of them women and children. Thirteen Israelis have died over the same period, ten of them soldiers. We speak with Oxford professor Avi Shlaim. He served in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and is widely regarded as one of the world’s leading authorities on the Israeli-Arab conflict.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/14/leading_israeli_scholar_avi_shlaim_israel

In this interview, Dr. Shlaim says exactly the same thing.

Tell me if you find a way to discount this, too, and I'll find another.

[karynnj]

113. I agree with you that Israel is completely over reacting now and I have posted that

The issue was how this started - not what was happening by the 19th day.

There are protests in Israel over these attacks.

[JuniperLea]

36. It's been reported in the UK, and on progressive radio... only...

As far as I can tell, this has had limited coverage, but the audio tape has made the rounds on the radio. Mike Malloy played it last night for the second or third time. I read it in the Guardian, but can't find the story now. Some of the links are broken now as well... I just tried googling it again.

[LittleClarkie]

41. Ah, that explains it. Cheers.

Perhaps Kerry and Clinton don't pay attention to those sources. Hardly makes them liars.

And it all depends on who you think has the truth in the media. Some would believe Mike Malloy and UK sources over our own, some would not.

[JuniperLea]

65. Had I not heard the audio interview...

I would have filed it under "wars and rumors of wars" which is always the safer bet these days.

[LynnTheDem]

89. Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

US media ignored Israeli attack that doomed Gaza truce
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:fnyYFC9-H-MJ:www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp%3Fedition_id%3D10%26categ_id%3D2%26article_id%3D98882+US+media+ignored+Israeli+attack+that+doomed+Gaza+truce&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

[MADem]

35. Well, you're going to have to prove that assertion before anyone believes you.

There are plenty of sources that say their take is accurate, actually.

I think I'm going to believe Kerry and Clinton before you, if I have to "pick."

[JuniperLea]

37. Audio tape of the UK interview has been all over the radio...

I'm sure it's on the YouTubes now...

Yeah, there are several...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pTX4d6B6_k

[EFerrari]

38. It's been all over.

:(

I love Kerry in this position but someone has to tell him and all of them, we know.

[PresidentObama]

76. From what I've read, you're making claims that you don't back up n/t

[MH1]

86. Oh bullshit.

You don't even know what the word "lie" means.

[Graybeard]

2. Nobody better.

He was very gracious.(Interviewing Hillary for the job that he wanted.)

[lostnotforgotten]

3. I Guess You Want A Bald Faced Liar In That Position Of Authority

eom

[ProSense]

4. Cut it out. There was no lie. There is a difference

between acknowledging that the cease fire was broken and the proportionality or legality of Israel's response. Hamas did break the cease fire.

[lostnotforgotten]

10. Your Facts Are Wrong - Do Your Research Before You Post

eom

[LittleClarkie]

15. If this is what most of the mainstream is saying, perhaps you could enlighten us

with your news source?

[lostnotforgotten]

18. I Am Not Here To Do Your Research For You - Many Threads At DU With the Facts

Just search DU.

[LittleClarkie]

27. I'm not the one making the assertion, pal

If you can't support what you say, then I'm not going to make your argument FOR you.

[lostnotforgotten]

30. I Already Know The Facts - You Don't - Go Look It Up!

eom

[Fabio]

93. are you kidding?

support you assertions or shut up.

[JuniperLea]

47. CNN; The Guardian... here is the YouTube that has been played all over progressive radio...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pTX4d6B6_k

[ProSense]

52. The blockade issue from early November has nothing to do with the late December rocket attacks

TIMELINE-Israeli-Hamas violence since ceasefire ended:

Jan 13 (Reuters) - Here is a timeline of events since a six-month ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip ended last month.

Dec. 19, 2008 - Ceasefire expires.

Dec. 24 - Gaza Palestinian militants fire rockets at Israel.

Dec. 27 - Israel launches air strikes on Gaza in response to the rocket and mortar fire, killing at least 229 Palestinians.

Dec. 28 - Israeli air strikes hit the Islamic University and target smuggling tunnels in the Gaza Strip.

Dec. 31 - Emergency U.N. Security Council session on Arab resolution calling for ceasefire adjourns without a vote.

Jan. 1, 2009 - Israel kills Nizar Rayyan, a hardline Hamas leader, in an air attack on his Gaza Strip home.

Jan. 3 - Israel launches a ground offensive in the Gaza Strip, sending tanks and infantry into battle with Hamas.

more

[EFerrari]

55. Oh yes it does. And I notice you exclude November.

Here is the political cover:

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSTRE4BQ1MR20081227

And this is what happened:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/gaza-ceasefire-at+risk-20081105

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=98882

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/775/39991

[ProSense]

78. Exclude? It isn't relevant. The Amnesty report is about a November 4th incident

From the Amensty piece you linked to, which talks about a incident related to the blockade:

The killing of six Palestinian militants in Gaza by Israeli forces in a ground incursion and air strikes on 4 November was followed by a barrage of dozens of Palestinian rockets on nearby towns and villages in the south of Israel. The Palestinian attacks caused no casualties or damage, but there is a real risk that any further armed actions by either side would risk igniting another deadly campaign.

The ceasefire was agreed between Israel and Hamas last June and has been in force since then. It has been the single most important factor in reducing civilian casualties and attacks on civilians to the lowest level since the outbreak of the uprising (intifada) more than eight years ago.

The ceasefire has brought enormous improvements in the quality of life in Sderot and other Israeli villages near Gaza, where before the ceasefire residents lived in fear of the next Palestinian rocket strike. However, nearby in the Gaza Strip the Israeli blockade remains in place and the population has so far seen few dividends from the ceasefire. Since June 2007, the entire population of 1.5 million Palestinians has been trapped in Gaza, with dwindling resources and an economy in ruins. Some 80 percent of the population now depend on the trickle of international aid that the Israeli army allows in.

Now, what does that have to do with the December 24 Palestianian rocket attacks:

TIMELINE-Israeli-Hamas violence since ceasefire ended:

Jan 13 (Reuters) - Here is a timeline of events since a six-month ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip ended last month.

Dec. 19, 2008 - Ceasefire expires.

Dec. 24 - Gaza Palestinian militants fire rockets at Israel.

Dec. 27 - Israel launches air strikes on Gaza in response to the rocket and mortar fire, killing at least 229 Palestinians.

Dec. 28 - Israeli air strikes hit the Islamic University and target smuggling tunnels in the Gaza Strip.

Dec. 31 - Emergency U.N. Security Council session on Arab resolution calling for ceasefire adjourns without a vote.

Jan. 1, 2009 - Israel kills Nizar Rayyan, a hardline Hamas leader, in an air attack on his Gaza Strip home.

Jan. 3 - Israel launches a ground offensive in the Gaza Strip, sending tanks and infantry into battle with Hamas.

more

[EFerrari]

80. I won't even dignify that. Some people just don't want to admit they're wrong.

[MADem]

82. I don't know why, on edit, I thought you responded to one of my posts.

I must have been looking at the full page, and not the lines linking the responses.

Well, so long as I screwed up, here's my two cents-- your links aren't terribly dispositive:

A spate of Israeli and Palestinian attacks and counter-attacks in the past 24 hours could spell the end of a five-and-a-half-month ceasefire. .... "Both sides need to step back from the brink and avoid, at all costs, a return to the vicious spiral of violence which has cost so much in human lives."

"While neither side ever completely respected the cease-fire terms, the Israeli raid was far and away the biggest violation," said Stephen Zunes, an expert on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict at the University of San Francisco.



The only one that "states" Israel "broke" the ceasefire is the third one, and it is an agenda-based source. It's about as useful as the opinion of the Jewish Defence Weekly (if there were such a publication).

The question here isn't "Who's been responding disproportionately?" We know that answer.

The question is "Who lit this shit off this time around?" The answer isn't as declarative as you might want to make it, and calling Kerry and Clinton liars, as happened upthread by someone other than you, is unhelpful to the discussion as well.

But then, it's pretty much like banging your head against a concrete wall to try to discuss this issue in this forum. The place is just not conducive to it, for some reason.

There's way too much accusation and name calling, and very little analysis of the issues, the history, the regional dynamic, and the prospects for a solution that include peace and security all around. If it's not "Push Them Into The Sea, They Are All Awful" (and that crap is pitched on both sides) it's "You Stupid Apologist, You Are An Accomplice To Murder" (again, we hear variations on this from both sides as well).

It's just a waste of time. Lots of heat (but not the warming kind) and very little light.

[EFerrari]

105. There is a better one here, from an Israeli expert, vet of IDF,

now Oxford scholar:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/14/leading_israeli_scholar_avi_shlaim_israel

I think the thing that is most disturbing to me about Kerry and Clinton is there is no military solution to this problem, so for Clinton to say she will not speak to Hamas until her conditions are met is just counter productive. Hamas's charter is extreme but since they were elected they've indicated a willingness to declare a longterm ceasefire with Israel.

And John Kerry should be speaking out against using all of Gaza as a big "free fire zone", not chiming in with spin on either side.

[MADem]

118. Clinton has to do what OBAMA wants her to do. I'm sure they've discussed this

in exhaustive detail, and they're on the same page about how to handle HAMAS....I know that doesn't sit well with some, but that's how it is.

Hillary Clinton is viewed as an honest broker in Palestine. Some may remember the shit she took for kissing Yassir's wife hello and effusively greeting him.

[karynnj]

96. The problem is that what you position as "truth" is not unbiased.

The Amnesty report says:
"The killing of six Palestinian militants in Gaza by Israeli forces in a ground incursion and air strikes on 4 November "

Missing from that was that on November 4, Israel was eliminating a tunnel between Gaza into Israel. That missing detail changes the initial event.

Similarly the ARAB Daily Star speaks mainly of the fact that the US media didn't give much coverage to the Nov 4 attack - which they also neglect to describe in terms of the purpose - because they were covering the Obama win. This article is written at a later point and is written to counter the fact that most people were saying Hamas broke the cease fire. This is blatant spin.

The third brings up good points of the intolerable situation in Gaza - but starts the article without fairly describing the nature of Nov 4 attack - though they do say that Israel acted on actionable intelligence.

One question - Did Hamas declare that the ceasefire was dead on Nov 5 due to the Israeli actions and then fire the missiles as government supported activities? It was the CONTINUED missiles lobed for weeks into Israel - with Hamas not charging people even when arrested - that broke the cease fire.

[EFerrari]

103. Are you arguing that Amnesty International is in the tank for Hamas?

lol

[JuniperLea]

58. It most certainly does!

And I find it interesting that you failed to include the notations on November. Cherry picking doesn't help support what your claims, in fact...

[EFerrari]

60. Links in my post above.

Probably not even the best ones, just the ones I could find.

[Zynx]

51. I think you believe what you want to believe.

[JuniperLea]

45. No, they didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pTX4d6B6_k

[EFerrari]

49. They didn't and this thread will likely be locked.

You can find the information if you are so inclined.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20090107&articleId=11663

So next time, before you insult a bunch of posters, maybe a little fact checking is in order.

[LynneSin]

7. *** sigh ***

I have to keep reminding myself that this is not reality sometimes.

99% of the democrats out there are thrilled to have Kerry heading to Foreign Relations committee but we can't please everyone can we.

Well it could be Lugar instead.

[lostnotforgotten]

12. Why Would You Want That Important Position Filled By A Man That Just Lied On CSPAN?

eom

[LynneSin]

17. Well from what I'm reading the *LIE* seems to be a difference in Interpretation

8 years ago we had Dick Lugar confirming Condi Rice.

Would you prefer that instead?

[lostnotforgotten]

20. Why Is Pointing Out The Truth Now Looked Down Upon At DU Because Kerry Is A Favorite

eom

[Mass]

22. Anybody in the Senate that you like better than him for the job?

Just asking because everybody including Sanders say the same thing, so whether it is a lie or not is irrelevant in this occasion. It will not help people living in Gaza (who did not fire the rockets anyway).

So, the real issue is who would you like better?

[LynneSin]

25. Wow, the most liberal progressive independant senator said the same thing

THROW ALL THE BUMS OUT

:hide:

You know DU is going to be a scary place now that we have control. For 8 years we always had one common enemy - Bush & the republicans. Now, who knows who the enemy is - could be you and it could be me.

:scared:

[lostnotforgotten]

26. Democrats Should Be Held To A Higher Standard!

eom

[LynneSin]

32. Whatever

Please realize that everyone at DU has different standards and not necessarily higher or lower than others.

Clearly Kerry's message was the same as the most liberal member of our senate. Why you're getting bent out of shape is beyond me. I have bigger battles to fight than Kerry for Senate Foreign, which really is the best choice.

[lostnotforgotten]

34. If We Are To BrowBeat the Republicans For Lying Then We Need To Be Prepared Not To Lie

eom

[LynneSin]

57. If I'm going to spend my time going over every detail to confirm it's a lie or not

I will have no time to do anything else.

You want the perfect chairperson of the Senate Foreign Relation Committee then you should have run for senate and taken the job yourself. Because in the world of politics there is only one person (and this is not just you but everyone) that will match your ideologies 100% and that's yourself. Everyone else is a compromise.

Lying is part of the job and it's going to happen no matter who is in charge. The problem is what are the results of those lies which is why we 'browbeat' the republicans. When the lies lead to us sending our troops to a war and lives in jeopardy - yeah, I'm going to do alot more than just a lil bit of 'browbeating' - trust me on that one.

Personally I don't know if what Kerry said is a lie since I'm seeing other reports that disparage what you have said. But my mentality is that we have a major mess on our hands and it's not going to get solved overnight. Kerry is the best choice for that position who has the most knowledge and is very well regarded throughout the world. So as far as myself and about 99.9% of the democrats here at DU are concerned that matter is solved and on to bigger problems.

[EFerrari]

59. Would you believe Amnesty International? Or, should their report also

be chucked in service of, I don't know, some kind of political narrative that is just going to bite us in the butt down the road?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8085144&mesg_id=8085401

I thought we did nuance.

[karynnj]

101. That assumes that you are right - and I think that many many people disagree

I am not impressed with CNN's coverage. Finding a Palestinian who says it was Israel is really not hard to do. Leaving through yellow highlighted newspaper accounts of Israel's bombing of a tunnel into Israel proves that the November 4th raid was reported. It does not prove that it was what broke the cease fire. Israel has bombed previous tunnels into Israel, including one after it was used by a suicide bomber in January 2007.

It has been widely reported - not just by US and Israel - that the ceasefire was broken by the continued firing of missiles from Gaza into Israel. This incidentally did not start only after November 4.

[LittleClarkie]

28. Who's truth?

Are you the arbiter of ultimate truth?

[lostnotforgotten]

33. The Truth That Kerry Lied On Public Television To the Nation And the Whole World

The fact that you cannot deny the facts is truth of their validity!

[karynnj]

40. The issue is not as black and white as you think it is

The likelihood is that none of these Senators are lying - there are many many people who see the missiles continually thrown across the border as the ceasefire violation. From your perspective, they are wrong or inaccurate - but unless you know the Senators better than we do saying that they are lying is an overstatement.

[LittleClarkie]

43. Or perhaps they just don't listen to Mike Malloy

It sounds like we're getting conflicting reports. The truth will shake out eventually, I reckon.

[politicasista]

46. Maybe....

Somebody needs to forward the Youtube clips to his office? Or HRC's office? That seems more productive than calling them liars, you think? :shrug:

The only problem is the media will roast them for if it happens, hopefully the truth will be revealed some way.

[karynnj]

92. Not to mention - a palestian leader saying it is so - is no more convincing

than an Israeli leader saying that it is so. Their claim is to go back over a month before to the Israelis bombing a tunnel being created near the border. Now the Palestinians have used tunnels to enter Israel - for militant purposes. This was not the first time that Israel has bombed tunnels that are built in Gaza and go into Israel - here is a January 2007 article of a similar attack - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6312061.stm

Note that the article refers to a suicide bombing that endangered the truce, but does not claim the Israeli action endangers the truth. (This is a BBC account - they are generally neither pro-Israel or pro-Palestian.) If both were violations, than a parallel comment would likely have been made. So, CNN finding news articles around the world on the November 4 attack is not really proof of anything other than that it was well reported that there was another attempt to build a tunnel into Israel and it was stopped.

The second claim was that the Israelis were blocking movement into and out of Israel. This DOES represent a problem - Palestine lacked sufficient food and other goods. In earlier times, many Palestinians worked in Israel. Now access is more limited. This is an international as well as an Israeli problem.

(Having little to do with whether there was a cease fire - here is an interesting article - http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i5SRlyeHhyb7GzcYxXtaATgJTwfwD95DUU9G0 The tunnels to Egypt were used to bring in weapons, but they also brought in needed food. It also says that for 2 months before attacking, Israel responded to Hamas bombing by tightening the borders. Now, this means the missiles PRECEDED the November 4 bombing alluded to by the Palestinians.

Now both Senators Kerry and Clinton spoke of the Palestinian suffering and this article is written very sympathetically to the Palestinians. It is clear that the current situation is a catastrophe. The solution is not the rebuilding of smugglers tunnels, but opening a secure monitored border crossing to allow Eqyptian goods to reach people.

So, it is likely that Hamas violated the cease fire first. It is also true that for some time the conditions in Gaza have been abysmal. A solution is not easy.

[politicasista]

114. Good answer

I have to admit, I haven't followed the Middle East conflict closely as other DUers. I hear about the deaths, but I hope there is a cease-fire (if there has been one already). It's a mess over there. :(

[karynnj]

91. Well ... I would hope they do NOT take Malloy as their primary and only source

He is not unbiased on many issues. I have listened to him and sometimes agree - but there are times when he is less than objective.

[MarjorieG]

63. Anyone else cringing at such insulting 'liar' accusations hurled at Kerry?

With such certainty.

[politicasista]

74. There has been a lot of overreaction towards

Kerry (and Obama a lot) the last day or so from:

People who are blasting Kerry and other Dems for not "STFU" and voicing a minor disagreement towards Obama's economic plan. Never mind that Obama welcomes opinions, input from both sides of the aisle. And the Obama economic team took the suggestions as constructive criticism.

Some (not all) DUers took it as Kerry and others "bloviating" to the media and/or turning on Obama. I think fellow (not all) Obama supporters and other people have forgotten what Kerry did for Obama in 04, the 08 election and now.

[EFerrari]

75. Kerry was one of Obama's very best surrogates. n/t

[politicasista]

115. Yes he was n/t

[EFerrari]

39. "We" certainly can't please the people who have been paying attention

and who know that Hamas didn't break the ceasefire and that it matters at this point.

[karynnj]

100. There is no question that Hamas did break the cease fire

THe things you posted attempt to go back more than a month before the ceasefire was widely considered broken by the continued firing of missiles into Israel and claim that Israel "broke" the ceasefire on Nov 4 when they bombed a tunnel being built and killed 6 Hamas militants.

There were MANY things that were said to violate the ceasefire - from both sides. The November 4 bombing was covered widely and was not seen as breaking the ceasefire in most reports. Do you see any problem with Hamas building tunnels into Israel? Should they have ignored it?

[EFerrari]

104. That's simply mendacious. Isreal broke the ceasefire on November 4

and that has been reframed by Israel to give them a pretext to bomb Gaza. That propaganda is what you are referring to as "widely considered".

Israel, for that matter, never honored the terms of the ceasefire in the first place. But mounting a military operation on 11/04 was a clear violation of the ceasefire as it existed.

Do you see any problem with Israel preferring brute force to deal with the tunnels over any other solution?

[karynnj]

110. It is not mendatious

The reframing was not by Israel - they said immediately that they bombed a tunnel - and that appears to be the truth. I saw nothing that claimed that there was no tunnel. You need to consider that you are reading just the Arab side - and that would be as bad as reading just a Likud site.

As to the tunnels on the Egyptian border that were recently bombed, how would you deal with smuggling tunnels?

As to Israel never honoring the ceasefire, that is not true. There were violations by both Hamas and Israel - but there was a huge difference from when

[EFerrari]

111. I'm reading "the Arab side"? Wow. No, Karyn.

I am reading Avi Shlaim, an Israeli scholar who is respected all over the world as a leading expert in this matter.

Do you reject inconvenient facts as "the Arab side"?

Wow. Just, wow.

[karynnj]

112. One of your links was to an Arab paper, the other to Amnesty international

(which has had had a pro-palestine slant and a green paper I am not familiar with at all. The fact is that it seems you are cherry picking to get to saying that it was - with no question at all - Israel which broke the cease fire.

I disagree with you on whether or not the Nov 4 bombing of a tunnel into Israel was what BROKE the ceasefire. Do you think that the act of building a tunnel into Israel was ok? It sounds like Israel simply attacked the tunnel on Nov 4 - I don't see that as being as unreasonable as you do. I do think the continuous missiles broke the cease fire.

If you resent me saying that you were reading the "Arab side", remember that you labeled my post - mendacious. That says you think that I am lying - something I know for a fact is not true - and you say "wow" that I said you were reading the Palestinian side.

The problem is that the "facts" are obviously in dispute.

[EFerrari]

116. I also gave you a link to Amy's show this morning.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/14/leading_israeli_scholar_avi_shlaim_israel

It's not "cherrypicking" to find the sources that are actually reporting the facts. You know, the residents of Gaza don't own any part of our media as AIPAC does. You have to dig pretty hard to find out that 700 Israelis have been arrested for protesting the slaughter in Gaza, for example. But, as a consumer of news, that's your responsibility.

[karynnj]

117. I just looked at it - I hadn't seen it before

It IS consistent with things I've read - but it is about what happened 19 days after the start of these hostilities. I agree that Israel's response has been far out of proportion and wrong.

The question though was the breaking of the cease fire - and as I have said the event that precipitated the hostilities was the December firing of many missiles into Gaza. Prior to that there were various violations on both sides. That is why many people have said that Hamas broke the cease fire. (the events of Nov 4 were not the first violations of the truce by either side and the truce did not end at that point.)

[EFerrari]

120. The media here is repeating that Hamas broke the ceasefire

because it is politically expedient.

I have no love at ALL for the Hamas leadership. But the fact is, they held it together very well for months. And yes, the events of November 4 were the end of the ceasefire, no matter that people who prop up the right wing in Israel want to spin what happened.

"Now, let me give you some figures, which I think are the most crucial figures in understanding this conflict. Before the ceasefire came into effect in July of 2008, the monthly number of rockets fired—Kassam rockets, homemade Kassam rockets, fired from the Gaza Strip on Israeli settlements and towns in southern Israel was 179. In the first four months of the ceasefire, the number dropped dramatically to three rockets a month, almost zero. I would like to repeat these figures for the benefit of your listeners. Pre-ceasefire, 179 rockets were fired on Israel; post-ceasefire, three rockets a month. This is point number one, and it’s crucial.

And my figures are beyond dispute, because they come from the website of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. But after initiating this war, this particular table, neat table, which showed the success of the ceasefire, was withdrawn and replaced with another table of statistics, which is much more obscure and confusing. Israel—the Foreign Ministry withdrew these figures, because it didn’t suit the new story.

The new story said that Hamas broke the ceasefire. This is a lie. Hamas observed the ceasefire as best as it could and enforced it very effectively. The ceasefire was a stunning success for the first four months. It was broken not by Hamas, but by the IDF. It was broken by the IDF on the 4th of November, when it launched a raid into Gaza and killed six Hamas men."

-- Avi Shlaim

Apart from just getting things right in the first place, this matters because it shows that Hamas did try to honor the ceasefire.

[karynnj]

9. He did not lie - Hamas broke the ceasefire by sending missiles into Israel

You can argue that Israel over reacted - but unless you have a good source saying there was something Israel did before those missiles Hamas broke the cease fire. (If you find an obscure source it is still not necessarily true and if true, it might not be something the Senators knew to have been true.

[lostnotforgotten]

11. Your Facts Are Wrong - Do Your Research More Thoroughly

eom

[LittleClarkie]

29. Your OPINION carries no weight without facts to back it up

if you can't back yourself up with anything but "go look for youself" then you are of little use.

Some are getting facts from one place, you are apparently getting yours from another. Why should be believe yours is better when you can't even provide your own backup?

[lostnotforgotten]

31. I Already Know The Facts - You Don't - Go Look It Up!

eom

[EFerrari]

42. Even Rick Sanchez had it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

Israel admits no rockets during ceasefire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c&eurl=http://whatreallyhappened.com

[MADem]

48. I'm with you.

"Facts" without valid proof, not opinions from others of the same mindset, are not facts--they're opinions.

And "go find it yourself" is hardly proof. In fact, it's the refuge of someone without any proof.

[EFerrari]

56. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8085144&mesg_id=8085401

[JuniperLea]

44. He may only know what he has been told...

I doubt he peruses the YouTubes or listens to progressive radio, which is the only place I've seen this.

The Guardian story has apparently been scrubbed, unless my mad InterTube skilz are failing me now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pTX4d6B6_k

[smalll]

5. NO sex threads!

Um, nevermind.

[PresidentObama]

70. LMAO! n/t

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

24. I guess you'd say the same about same Hillary

since she repeated what Kerry said, right?

Better yet, knowing the facts would help.

[PresidentObama]

67. The sub-thread was deleted. What happened? n/t

[Radical Activist]

16. He would have been better as

SOS but it's good to have him be part of the nation's foreign policy leadership. I didn't see the hearings today.

[LynneSin]

19. I agree but I think the reason for Clinton is because of the name appeal across the globe

Sure, we'll all bitch about Clinton in our own ways here at DU. But Clinton name is golden around the world. This was a smart move with picking her.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

50. Kerrys opening remarks this morn were about that, Hillary being globally

recognized and respected. It suddenly made sense to me, why Obama wants her as SOS.

[blm]

53. He'd have been a better SoS but none would be better for SFRC chair w/terrorism, global financial

crimes ruining the world economy - those matters need honest examination and solutions. Oversight has never been a strong suit of any other senator.

[PresidentObama]

69. He would have been better as SoS or President....

...but that's just my opinion ;)

[Mass]

23. He was very good, but it is not a surprise...

[PresidentObama]

66. No it is not surprising, he's doing an incredible job already n/t

[Rowdyboy]

54. He was born for the job....I think he'll go down in history as one of the great senate leaders....

of last century and this.

[blueladybird]

68. Kerry did very well.

[EFerrari]

72. For the record, I love Kerry for this position.

But his assigning blame to the wrong party today, let alone at all, did not move that process forward. It was unnecessary.

[jillan]

81. Actually - I prefer him in this position ----->

But, chairman of the SFRC is the next best thing ;)

[PresidentObama]

84. That picture made me tear up. I do too.

But this will have to work.

[disndat]

83. Agree.

Great to see him a position of great importance again. I must have missed something. How did he get here. Who had it before?

[PresidentObama]

85. SFRC chairman before? It was Biden before n/t

[disndat]

87. Thank you.

Much appreciation. I couldn't have found this info so easily in Google.

[PresidentObama]

88. No problem :) n/t

[Jennicut]

108. Love Kerry as his replacement.

[karynnj]

97. Biden -

Kerry has been on the committee for 24 years - since he entered the Senate. The chair is determined by seniority but you can chair just one committee. Dodd has more seniority, but he opted to continue to be the Chair of the Banking Committee. After the 2010 elections, the chairs will again be assigned. At that point, Dodd can change his mind and take SFRC. (I suspect that the committee Dodd might head in the next 2 years is Health, Education, Labor, Pansion (HELP) that Kennedy currently heads.)

[PresidentObama]

106. I'm glad Dodd opted to Chair the Banking Committtee....

...for more reasons than one, but mostly because I don't think he fits the mold as the SFRC Chairman like Senator Kerry does.

This is an incredible time in our nations history, and the foreign relations issues we face are incredible. With Obama, Biden and Clinton in the Administration...plus Kerry heading the Committee in the Senate, we've got a real opportunity to face these challenges head on.

[JI7]

90. i think this is a better position for Kerry than SOS

the only other position he would be better as would be President.

but it's clear Kerry isn't the type who should work under someone as SOS would do. Senators are more independent and take the lead on things and Kerry is more fit for that role .

but he would still be good as sos or any other position.

[karynnj]

98. It really was Obama's choice

Kerry was incredible as a surrogate during the election - always speaking of Obama's position, never his own - when they subtly disagreed. He also never pointed out when saying that everyone including Bush had moved towards Obama's positions on Iraq, Afghanistan and North Korea - that all those positions were his first. Kerry's loyalty was well proven.

Given his ability then in off the cuff answers on talk shows to consistently do this, does show that he would have been very able to represent the President's views as a diplomat. Not to mention, in the foreign policy debate, there were Obama answers that were clearly built on time tested Kerry responses. Although Obama was far vaguer on foreign policy than Kerry was, it was clear that on many important topics Kerry was an influence.

It might be that Obama thought that with HRC as SOS, he gets both a very capable senior Senator, with important committee assignments on Finance and Commerce - as well as chairing SFRC as well as a very well known SOS, who could add more to the team as SOS than as a low seniority Senator. (Not to mention - he succeeds in making what's good for the Clintons equal to what is good for Obama. This possibly ends any worry of a primary challange for 2012.)

Though HRC's answers on everything except the possible conflict of interest with BC's foundation, were excellent - it was clear from the hearing that Kerry's insight and foreign policy knowledge outstrip HRC's. I hope that HRC will be able to do as well as Kerry would have with the job.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

94. I'm glad for him... he will do well!

[bdamomma]

99. He fits the chairmanship of this Committee.

good luck Senator Kerry, wise choice indeed.

[politicasista]

109. 22 recs?

That's good considering the minor flamebait. :patriot:

[ObamaKerryDem]

119. K&R..with much enthusiasm! :D

:kick: Of course, he should've been president (Hillary's freudian slip yesterday was right on..LOL), but he seems to naturally fit this position, too. And he totally deserves it. A natural born leader. I will always be so proud he was my first POTUS vote! :bounce: