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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 04:45 PM
Original message
Good men don't torture
Edited on Fri Jan-16-09 04:48 PM by ProSense
Obama says he always thought Bush was a 'good guy':

BEDFORD HEIGHTS, Ohio (CNN) -- After two years of traveling around the country and criticizing President Bush, President-elect Barack Obama said Friday that he "always thought was a good guy."

"I mean, I think personally he is a good man who loves his family and loves his country," Obama said in an exclusive interview with CNN's John King.


Good men don't torture.

Edited to add: Jonathan Turley's opinion





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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. What if Bush had ordered the assassination of Saddam and his top officials,
would he still be considered a good man?

How is it that someone can knowingly launch a war based on a lie, resulting in the unnecessary killing and maiming of tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers and innocent Iraqis, and authorize torture in carrying out that illegal mission, and still be considered a "good" man?

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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. It's a christian thing.
You can justify absolutely anything
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Calling Torture By Its Proper Name
Friday, January 16, 2009

Calling Torture By Its Proper Name

Sandy Levinson

A major story in the Wednesday Washington Post detailed an interview that Bob Woodward had with Judge Susan Crawford, the chief gatekeeper (and former counsel to the Army during the Reagan Administration and member of the United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces between 2001-2006) regarding prosecutions at Guantanamo. She indicated her belief that "torture" had been used against Mohammed al-Qahtani, the alleged potential "20th-hijacker," and, therefore, that he could not properly be tried. I have offered some comments about the story at The Guardian's website.

<...>

What is crucial is that she recognizes the misleading nature of debates about torture that focus only on one-off occurrences (including, for that matter, waterboarding). Instead, she argues, altogether correctly, that the occurrences of lots of by-stipulation "permitted" actions can add up, in the minds of any civilized observer, to "torture." Thus the second key paragraph:

"For 160 days his only contact was with the interrogators," said Crawford, who personally reviewed Qahtani's interrogation records and other military documents. "Forty-eight of 54 consecutive days of 18-to-20-hour interrogations. Standing naked in front of a female agent. Subject to strip searches. And insults to his mother and sister."

She is obviously not arguing that "insults to his mother and sister," standing alone, would constitute "torture," even though it clearly violates any prohibition against "cruel, inhumane, and degrading" treatment. But, taken together with everything else she notes, including the frequency of sleep-deprivation and the lack of any human contact with anyone else but his interrogators, it is surely "torture." One might think this relatively clear.

But the legal affairs editor of the National Review, Andrew McCarthy, begs to disagree. Thus, he has written in the New York Times that

Ms. Crawford’s conclusion is another instance of the military getting it wrong. Isolation and temperature variations of the type we are talking about here are not torture. To contend otherwise is to trivialize something that is truly heinous. It may be politically correct, but it is wrong. American law has always maintained a bright line between the egregious pain and suffering caused by actual torture and other forms of abusive conduct. Ms. Crawford’s suggestion that abusive conduct that has a “medical impact” meets the “legal definition of torture” is preposterous.

To put it bluntly, this is an example of moral idiocy. My objection is not that Mr. McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor, might believe that torture is sometimes necessary to serve national security ends. That is a serious debate, even though I have come to agree that we are far better off with a categorical ban on torture than to allow open exceptions. But people who defend what we did to Mr. Qahtani should have the intellectual and moral integrity to call it by its rightful name. It is that test that Mr. McCarthy fails in every conceivable way.




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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sources: Obama ready to end harsh interrogations

Sources: Obama ready to end harsh interrogations

By LARA JAKES and PAMELA HESS

WASHINGTON – President-elect Barack Obama is preparing to prohibit the use of waterboarding and harsh interrogation techniques by ordering the CIA to follow military rules for questioning prisoners, according to two U.S. officials familiar with drafts of the plans. Still under debate is whether to include a loophole that would allow exceptions in extraordinary cases.

The proposal Obama is considering would require all CIA interrogators to follow conduct outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual, the officials said. The plans would also have the effect of shutting down secret "black site" prisons around the world where the CIA has questioned terror suspects — with all future interrogations taking place inside American military facilities.

However, Obama's changes may not be absolute. His advisers are considering adding a classified loophole to the rules that could allow the CIA to use some interrogation methods not specifically authorized by the Pentagon, the officials said, although the intent is not to use that as an opening for possible use of waterboarding.

The new rules would abandon a part of President George W. Bush's counterterrorism policy that has been condemned internationally. Bush has defended his policies by pointing to the fact that the nation has gone more than seven years without another terrorist attack on its soil.

<...>

For Obama, who repeatedly insisted during the 2008 presidential campaign and the transition period that "America doesn't torture," a classified loophole would allow him to follow through on his promise to end harsh interrogations while retaining a full range of presidential options in conducting the war against terrorism.

more


Torture loophole? Good grief! Still, this is an AP report.








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TTUBatfan2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think...
Obama is just being gracious in public. He was seen leaving to go to dinner last night at 8:01 EDT right when Bush had started speaking. And he made a comment about how he wishes he didn't have to move twice in 5 days (a reference to the Bush couple's petty stunt with Blair House). I think that behind closed doors he probably thinks Bush is an incompetent jerk.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Maybe. Turley is on Olbermann discussing war crimes. n/t
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