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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 04:07 PM
Original message
Ineffective stimulus could doom both our economy and sane liberal economics
Edited on Sat Jan-17-09 04:48 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
Folks, it is worse than you think...

Given normal uncontroversial economic formulas with things as they are today, to stimulate the economy the Fed would need to cut interest rates by 6%.


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/zero-lower-bound-blogging/

Interest rates are at about 0%.

That means the Fed is out of bullets and the Federal government needs to do something that is equivalent to a 6% interest rate cut.

It is hard to express how much borrowing and spending it takes to approximate a 6% easing on credit... trillions, of course, but how many?

If normal trends apply we may be looking at an annual deflation rate of 3.5%. Once something like that starts there is no "natural" brake or rebound point. High across-the-board deflation is catastrophic, not some self-correcting cyclical phenomenon.

The scary thing about Paul Krugman is that he is moderate, not alarmist. But he blogs every day about 3%+ deflation and looming intractable depression. The problem is that we are in a situation where even the most conservative analysis seems crazy.

None of us know exactly what team Obama will do (including team Obama) but that doesn't mean it is irresponsible to take an interest in the survival of our own national economy. The best Democratic traditions suggest we really SHOULD think about these things.

I do not know why team Obama is playing around with this thing. The outlines of the stimulus proposed (information disseminated by T.O. for the purpose of us looking at it) suggest the thing is not only insufficient, but a particularly ineffective use of what dollars it does spend.

The people around Obama are certainly not stupid or ill-informed, so when they put out a sketch of a stupid, useless policy there's a reason for it. The reason must be politics. Obama doesn't want to take the needed gamble. He doesn't want to spend his capital trying to move something truly dramatic. And perhaps his course will keep his approval ratings higher.

I do not suggest Obama's political analysis is faulty. I suggest it is irrelevant. This is an honest to God crisis with potential outcomes that are WORSE than the great depression. Real nation destroying stuff. And the broader moral dimensions are shocking, even to the most irresponsible 'good riddance to capitalism' set. The effects of a global depression on the people of the third world would be like like a hundred Iraq wars.

But if Obama is personally inclined to think that there is a reliable self-regulating element of the situation then he might be inclined to pursue a safer course while hoping that his political maneuvering doesn't end up tipping the country from deep shock-recession into intractable depression.

Spending $850 billion on sacks of manure and tossing them in the ocean would have some stimulative effect. You cannot spend that much money in any fashion without SOME effect. But 850 Billion that's largely tax cuts and grants to states is no game-changer. That's "waiting it out" in a situation with no obvious self-correcting dimension. (Shifting budget deficits from one government balance sheet to another is not optimal stimulus.)

Will anything I type here affect the stimulus package? No, but that goes for all of us. (If I typed that it will be the best thing ever it would be equally futile.)

But whatever magical effect our DU scribblings have, I hope this adds one voice to the needed call for a mode and scale of stimulus that will seem outlandish. Only an incoming and wildly popular president could ever hope to pull off something truly outside-the-box. So please start from scratch and go for daring and dramatic, not slow and steady. Shoot your whole political wad on this roll because if the USA goes down then everything else you campaigned on means zero.

The greatest risk is caution.

And if we do a half-hearted ineffective stimulus and it fails then the pugs will have another generation of ammunition that government cannot help the macro-economic situation. So the stakes are even higher than high!

_________________________
_________________________
Risks of deflation (wonkish but important)

There’s been some talk abut risks of deflation, but there’s one alarming comparison I haven’t seen made. The figure above shows that the CBO is currently projecting an output shortfall from the current slump comparable to the slump of the early 1980s. Actually, it’s very close: if you compare the CBO’s projections of unemployment from 2008 through 2012 with its estimate of the natural rate, we’re looking at cumulative excess unemployment of 13.9 point-years; that compares with 13.7 point years from 1980 through 1986. (If the natural rate — the unemployment rate that keeps inflation unchanged — is 5 percent, and the actual unemployment rate averages 7 percent over a year, that’s 2 point-years of excess unemployment.)

Now here’s the thing: the slump of the early 1980s produced the Great Disinflation, which brought the core inflation rate down from about 10 to about 4.

This time, however, we entered the slump with a core inflation rate of about 2.5 percent. If we experienced a disinflation comparable to that of the 1980s, that would mean ending up with deflation at a rate of -3.5 percent.

And bear in mind that neither the CBO nor the Obama team really explains where recovery comes from; it’s just assumed.

So tell me why we aren’t looking at a very large risk of getting into a deflationary trap, in which falling prices make consumers and businesses even less willing to spend. Tell me why this risk wouldn’t remain high, though lower, even with the Obama plan, which as far as I can tell is expected to reduce cumulative excess unemployment by about a third.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/risks-of-deflation-wonkish-but-important/
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Seeing this from Krugman, I take it seriously.
What else does he suggest Obama do?
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. More money, more jobs... all-around ginormousness
Krugman has not, to my knowledge, gotten around to consumer credit relief which I remain convinced is the key.

If we are seeing his full analysis I would defer to him on the point, but I think he is trying to retain his influence by grossly understating his conclusions.

He keeps pushing the envelope but the truth is somewhere way outside the envelope.

If he spoke his mind and said we need 3 trillion he would lose credibility so he keeps saying "more"

His standing advice is "draw up what you think you need and then double it."

So I would guess he's up to at least 1.7 trillion in his head, without tax cuts. And if someone said 3 trillion I'd guess he'd say, "Go for it."
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Capitalism, RIP
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OnceUponTimeOnTheNet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. I honestly think it's over economically for us. We are done.
We need a person like Obama like never before in this Nations History. This economy has Global repercussions that many will never fully understand for the rest of their lives. Good luck Obama.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Our prospects may be permanently diminished, but there are things we can do
Some of them are crazy-sounding things, but we do have options.
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OnceUponTimeOnTheNet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Could you elaborate on options
whether crazy or not? I'll listen to any input.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Here's my stock crackpot addition:
In addition to other measures, convert 750billion-1trillion of consumer debt to debt to the government at Prime+1% (Or prime+2%... whatever)

Spurs new lending to replace lost balances
Clears potentially bad consumer debt from banks' books
Increases household income
Creates a lightened load feeling in most households--dynamite psychology
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Is ANYONE talking about household debt?
It's not crackpot at all to start talking about the elephant in the room

:hi:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I think it's the right approach. Create cashflow and demand and let the system bootstrap itself
If the American consumer isn't buying the whole world goes down and we are not an island.
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OnceUponTimeOnTheNet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. It will be too little to late.
We are done for.

Thank You kindly for replying Kurt.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Even "done for" is relative
"Done for" like future American generations will no have the prospects of previous generations versus done for" like cannibalism in the streets.

No matter how bad the situation there is always better and worse policy
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. ...
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Yes, why NOT bail out the American people?

Lotteries are often said to be taxes on the math-challenged but the credit card and banking industries have taken even greater advantage of the math-challenged -- and of those who know the math but are in desperate straits, such as people who incur catastrophic medical bills.

IMO, the Bush law that makes it more difficult for individuals to declare bankruptcy, and requires them to pay off any credit card debt while in bankruptcy, must be repealed ASAP. And speaking of acronyms, I think Obama needs to pull the US out of GATT, NAFTA, and the WTO. He's got to think in terms of lifesaving surgery, not Band-aids.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. I agree. This is one of the few situations in which compromise hurts us far worse politically.
If we do anything but bet the house on red and win here, we lose and lose badly. I love to find the grey, but here there's no middle ground.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yup. This isn't what Obama wanted but it's what he's got and it's gotta be "shoot the moon"
Edited on Sat Jan-17-09 06:12 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
It is an error to view this as competing with other domestic priorities. It is prerequisite to all other domestic policy.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-09 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great Post - K& R - Everyone should read it.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-09 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great post. K & R. n/t
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-09 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Will Obama listen to Krugman?
Friday, January 9, 2009


VIDEO-- Obama: "If Paul Krugman has a good idea…then we’re going to do it."



http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-obama-if-paul-krugman-has-good.html

Will he?
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. kick
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
20. Do you pay 0% on your consumer debt?
I don't. That's the problem. This problem has be solved from the BOTTOM UP. From the
aspect of those of us who OWE, NOT THOSE OF US WHO LEND. Until the people are helped
nothing will be solved.

Without help at the consumer end, we WILL fall into a deflationary depression where people
(consumers) will hunger down and not spend.


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