I think Blago is right

[insanity]

If we want to truly be a Democracy, we must honor the principle of minority protection and the right to defend oneself. Let the man stand a trial, that while entirely political, at least has the auspices of fairness. Also, he shouldn't use Larry King as a platform for promoting himself. Larry King is like the late night Opera.

For what its worth, I think he is probably guilty of trying to sell the seat. Also, Illinois should consider a constitutional amendment to allow recalls. With the level of corruption that seems to infiltrated their politics, their should be more responsibility for the people to kick out their shitbag leaders.

[olkaz]

1. Ugh.

This is not a criminal trial.

[insanity]

3. The Constitution may still apply?

I can't recall any precedent that has formally defined what type of trial an impeachment is. If I understand it right, impeachment is an indictment and the trial that happens should still retain 14th amendment rights. I may be way off base

[AngryAmish]

6. Impeachment is political

In Illinois there is no "high crimes an misdemeanors" standard.

All it takes is 2/3ds (or 60%) saying you are impeached, then you are impeached.

It could be for any reason. Senators are eventually answerable to the voters.

Back in the constitutional convention they talked about making a recall provision, but eventually decided on impeachability and removal for any reason as a check on an officeholder gone off the reservation.

[H2O Man]

52. While it takes place

in a political forum, impeachment is actually a civil trial. The criminal charges are mentioned in the impeachment, but are not going to be debated. An impeachment, even on solely "criminal" grounds, can only have a civil penalty, never a criminal one. Therefore, the protections the Constitution grants those charged with crimes do not apply.

[WeDidIt]

13. The ONLY thing that applies is the Illinois Constitution

No meddling from outsiders.

Illinois will handle the question as to whether Blagojevich should remain in office. Everybody else should BUTT THE FUCK OUT!

[H2O Man]

51. The impeachment

is a civil trial, not a criminal trial. Thus, the protections provided for a criminal trial are not transfered.

[babylonsister]

2. He had ample opportunity to defend himself. Unfortunately, he

has had several lawyers quit because he won't listen to them, so he has no one afaik to represent him. He's made his own bed; kvetching on tv won't change a thing.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

10. Buttttt.....

He's just like Ghandi, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr. all rolled into one. :rofl:

[frazzled]

4. Pssst ...

(1) It's not a criminal trial

(2) It isn't a criminal trial, and even if it were, calling in John McCain to "testify" how you worked on healthcare would not be allowed. He shook down the race track in exchange for signing a bill that benefited them.

(3) Even his own high-profile lawyer has quit ... essentially saying the guy is nuts and won't listen to his advice.

(4) We did have a ballot question in November to allow recalls: we overwhelmingly defeated it.

(5) Use a little discretion when you listen to people speak to the public: a lot of it is bullshit.

[insanity]

5. I get all of that

I'm making a normative arguement that any impeachment deserves the same constitutional protections as do criminal trials. Pragmatically speaking, Blago is probably nuts, but philosophically speaking I think he raised an interesting question I've never seen in caselaw: does the 14th Amendment and Bill of Rights apply to an impeachment.

[WeDidIt]

15. No, they don't. Impeachment is not a criminal proeeding

It's an entirely political proceeding.

[verges]

41. As I understand it....

An Impeachment is to determine whether an elected official can still effectively do his job. If it is found that he can't, he is removed from office. THEN, he stands criminal trial. So it is basically a confidence vote. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong!

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. This whole thing is nothing but a political assassination.

& tragically, all the do-gooders are going right along with it lock-step.

[WeDidIt]

16. Actually, the whole thing is one, long, drawn out, political SUICIDE

Blagojevich is finally going to get a little bit of what's coming to him.

The rest will come in the criminal trial.

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. My guess is that there isn't going to be any trial. shitz seems not to

have any evidence for it & the real purpose seems to have been served now.

[cali]

20. there will almost certainly be a trial. the tapes just about guarantee it.

[WeDidIt]

21. My guess is your guess is wrong.

Blago will do ten years minimum. He'll be sentenced to a lot more than that.

Fitz has been preparing this case for a long time, and selling the Senate seat is only a teensy weensy piece of it. Everything else is much bigger and that shit makes George Ryan look like a choir boy, and we all know where Fitz put Ryan.

[The_Casual_Observer]

22. If he was preparing this case for so long, then why the 3 month extension?

shitz hasn't got shit.

[WeDidIt]

23. Because the plan was to indict late this Spring all along

He only did the arrest thing BECAUSE Blagojevich was trying to sell the Senate seat. Blagojevich forced Fitzgerald's hand. He could not sit back and let a tainted appointment process go forward without shini9ng light upon it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

25. Sure.

And Cheney was going to prison too.

[WeDidIt]

26. Oh good giref

Come live in Illinos for a decade and then we'll talk.

[ericgtr]

8. He's a tool whose an embarrassment to the people of Ill

While everyone else is laughing at this asshole, the people of his state are cringing.

[Saturday]

24. I'm not cringing. nt

[NiteOwll]

35. I think he's done a good job as governor.

This is all political. They've been out to get him for years.

[stillcool]

9. I think what he is doing now...

is getting out ahead of the criminal trial. He already knows he's going to be impeached..fairly or not.

[polmaven]

17. Just a point of clarification...

He has already been impeached. The IL Senate trial is will dicide if he will or will not be removed from office.

[stillcool]

30. thanks...embarrassed to say...

that I'm impeachment challenged. You'd think I'd have a clear grasp of the process by now, but it just ain't happening.

[polmaven]

38. Just think of it

as the impeachment being the equivalent of an indictment, with the process moving to the Senate for conviction or acquittal at trial. :hi:

[SuperTrouper]

11. So far, well..we know he is crazy, but he has not even been indicted...

so he tried to sell Obama's seat but Fitz has not indicted him...so he was impeached in the Illinois House and now the Illinois Senate needs to convict him and they need 2/3 of the Senators to say "guilty". But guilty of what? Being crazy? Being a crook, where is the incontrovertible evidence? Just watch Blago survive the Senate, then what?

[WeDidIt]

19. Blagojevich will NOT survive the Senate proceedings

There are maybe 2 Senators who could vote to acquit in the entire state that wouldn't end up losing their seat in a landslide during the next election.

[cali]

12. aargh. a political trial does NOT offer the same constitutional

protections as a criminal trial and there's no reason why it should. Also Blago's been lying about not being able to call witnesses. Not to mention that he's shithouse rat insane.

[AZ Criminal JD]

55. He has not been lying about witnesses and he is not insanne.

Fitzgerald is calling the shots on who will be allowed to testify and the IL Senate is going along with it.

[Ioo]

14. THIS IS NOT A CRIMINAL TRIAL - IMPEACHMENT IS SUBJECTIVE

Crap, we impeached Clinton for being a democrat.

[apnu]

27. Defend himself from what crime?

Right now he's blathering on about an impeachment process but is confusing it (and everybody else) with civil or criminal prosecution.

He will stand trial, to face the criminal counts he is accused of by Patrick Fitzgerald, all of which, are not in yet. He will have his day in court.

As for the Illinois House and Senate, it is within their state constitutional power to call for and process impeachment of the Governor. It can be said that this is the will of the people also. The people elected Blago, but they also elected the Reps and Senators who are processing this impeachment. He was invited to take part in the impeachment and choose to blow it off. He claimed that he's not allowed to call witnesses to his defense, when he was and still can. Was, meaning, he was to issue a list of witnesses he wanted to call but choose not to until it was too late. Is, meaning, he still can so long as the IL Senate approves of the witness during the process. But again, he's choose to skip it and go on a media blitz.

Seems to me like he's given up his right to defense, in the impeachment, and now wants to wage war in the national public media. The exact wrong place to put any of this stuff.

He's toxic garbage. I've lived in Illinois for his entire term and voted for him twice (the first time we didn't know he'd be like this, and the second time his opponent was worse than him, IL GOP, gotta love how bad they suck). Believe me, he needs to go. He's doing no good for the people of Illinois and has been actively holding the state government hostage for whatever enters his head that serves his personal benefit. He's been openly doing this hostage thing since his 2nd victory.

Believe me, it is the will of the people in Illinois to see him removed from office ASAP. This guy has worse approval ratings (before his December 9th arrest) than Bush had when he left office. Right now the guy is treading in Chaney territory for numbers and is now probably below that too.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Fitzgerald will get to the Blago indictment right after he indicts Rove

In 24 business hours from now.

:rofl:

[ieoeja]

36. Rezko did claim Rove was going to come to his rescue.

But that only shows that Blagojevich was not the only crazy man in this administration.

[WeDidIt]

44. Bookmarking this post

to rub in your face when Blagojevich is indicted.

And then again after he's convicted.

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. Whatever Fitzmas

What happened to January 9?

:eyes:

[WeDidIt]

47. The plan all along was to indict Balgojevich in the Spring of 2009

The selling of a Senate seat is what forced Fitzgerald's hand.

He took his time with Ryan, too.

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. My hero!

:rofl:

"The plan all along..."

That's hilarious.

[WeDidIt]

50. George Ryan laughed, too

He's wearing an orange jumpsuit these days.

And he'll be considered in a better light than Blagojevich ever will.

[jacksonian]

57. the issue is he can't compel people to testify

and since anyone with any knowledge of anything is under orders form Fitz not to talk, Blago is left with no one to call.

Saying he is allowed to call people is a lie - that is, he can only call people who have no knowledge and he is permitted no subpoena powers.

Lynchings can be nice and legal, you know. And in the middle of every legal lynching, there's always someone telling lies like this - the sound-bite claim of fairness with the fine print taking it away.

Ever notice that?

[camera obscura]

28. Your thread title and your username make a pretty good combo

;)

[Swede Atlanta]

31. Issue is his ability to be effective

At the end of the day whether he is guilty of trying to sell the Senate seat or not, the main reason why the Illinois Legislature needs to pursue removing him from office is that as long as this cloud hangs over his head he is ineffective as the state executive. The people of Illinois deserve an executive that can be effective. If the Illinois constitution has no "crimes or misdemeanors" requirement then if in the Legislature's reasoning he should be impeached then he is impeached.

[PBS Poll-435]

32. Fitzgerald's circus of a press conference and subsequent request for "more time"

Have made a mockery of this whole thing.

Blago has already been convicted in the court of public opinion.

He will be removed from office. All without a single charge being filed.

It should be a lot harder than this to smear someone.

[WeDidIt]

33. Blago was convicted in the Illinois Court of Public Opinion

months before his arrest.

Dude, Blago is hated in this state. he had like a 13% approval rating LAST SUMMER. The vast majority in this state were convinced he was a crook LONG before his arrest.

The only surprise to most Illinoisians when Blago was arrested was the fact that it took them so fucking long!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

34. I agree with him, too, and I don't think he's crazy at all. Even when he speaks in riddles,

or alludes to poems, I don't think he's crazy. This is cryptic speech, possibly to protect himself legally. Blago has been right all along. Unless he has been formally charged (indicted by Fitzgerald), he has done nothing wrong in my book.

[backscatter712]

37. He didn't bother to show up at his own impeachment trial today.

He thought showing off his hair-helmet as a guest on The View was more important...

So he doesn't have a right to bitch when the Illinois Senate throws him out on his ass.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Kangaroo Court

The Denunciation Extravaganza!

:eyes:

If he shows up, he can't challenge the pre-determined findings. This is going to the Supremes.

[verges]

42. On what basis?

It's a political trial. Not criminal. And a state matter to boot! The US Constitution has no jurisdiction here.

[WeDidIt]

43. Man, are you WAAAYYY off base

You have no fucking clue.

The Senate is following the Illinois Constitution. The Federal government has no jurisdiction in this amtter whatsoever.

[WeDidIt]

40. The best part about all of this?

The press won't pay attention to him much after he's been thrown out of office.

No more press conferences for one thing.

HE may get a few gigs on national television, but those will dry up quickly as he'll be yesterday's news.

Once his criminal trial begins, he'll have a gag order on his ass and won't be able to say shit.

[AZ Criminal JD]

54. There will be no gag order in Blago's trial

Nothing would provide legal justification for that step.

[WeDidIt]

56. His mouth is justification. n/t

[Hamlette]

45. He has refused to attend his trial. He decided to go on TV instead. n/t

[grantcart]

49. your argument is presumed that they are weighing the same standard

they are not

a criminal standard is not the same as a civil standard. "Reasonable doubt" versus "Perponderance of the evidence".




In this case the standard is neither criminial or civil but whether or not he is performing to the standards of what a Governor should conduct himself.

For example if a Governor sat in his office and got completely drunk every day it wouldn't meet either the criminal or civil standard but it would meet the minimum standard of what a governor should be held to.


But you did buy the Blago line and if he can get one person to do that at jury trial he will get a mistrial and negotiate a better sentence.

[MadMaddie]

53. Illinois State Constitution

This is not Blago's only charge, there are many other charges and activities that Blago is being charged by the House of Representatives.

Blago is the master of his kingdom and he was stupid enough to get caught. It is alleged, that he has been holding up legislation for many needed projects in the state so he could get kickbacks.

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/conent.htm
<snip>
SECTION 14. IMPEACHMENT
The House of Representatives has the sole power to
conduct legislative investigations to determine the existence
of cause for impeachment and, by the vote of a majority of
the members elected, to impeach Executive and Judicial
officers. Impeachments shall be tried by the Senate. When
sitting for that purpose, Senators shall be upon oath, or
affirmation, to do justice according to law. If the Governor
is tried, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court shall
preside. No person shall be convicted without the concurrence
of two-thirds of the Senators elected. Judgment shall not
extend beyond removal from office and disqualification to
hold any public office of this State. An impeached officer,
whether convicted or acquitted, shall be liable to
prosecution, trial, judgment and punishment according to law.
(Source: Illinois Constitution.)
<snip>

[Politicalboi]

58. When do we hear the tapes?

Isn't it amazing how when Bush breaks all kinds of laws nobody was willing to impeach him. It was off the table. Blago is probably guilty but Bush IS guilty. Could you imagine the outrage the Repubes would have if we just ignored Blago like they did Bush.